Now on bbc news, political thinking with Nick Robinson hello and welcome to political thinking, a conversation with, rather than a news interrogation of, someone who shaped our political thinking about what has shaped theirs. My guest this week is a daughter of what we still euphemistically called the troubles the 30 years or more of violence which scarred Northern Ireland and the british mainland divided communities and claimed the lives of more than 3000 people. Emma little pengelly is the new deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. She grew up on the border with the south, the place with the highest death toll outside belfast. Her father was arrested and imprisoned in france for involvement in Arms Trafficking for hardline loyalists back in the 1980s, something he still denies to this day, though, he did once say publicly he would oppose compromise to the bitter end, to the death. Compromise that is with people like the First Minister of Northern Ireland, michelle 0neill of sinn fein, whose father was an ira prisoner. The two leaders, the First Minister and the deputy First Minister, are now seen by many as a symbol of compromise. Emma little pengelly, deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, welcome to political thinking. Hello. Its great to be here. Im struck by the image ive just seen before you came to do this interview. There you were standing alongside the First Minister of Northern Ireland being photographed for International Womens day. The two of you, two women, of course, two women in theirforties. Two women, do you think of a new generation of leadership in Northern Ireland . Well, i think both michelle and i have, i guess, very similar circumstances to some extent, but also very, very different ones of growing up in the eighties and nineties in Northern Ireland. But i think in that sense we almost straddle a number of generations. We are old enough to remember the difficult days of the past and the trauma and the violence and of course all of those negotiations to bring about peace. But were also very conscious when we talk to younger people who dont have a memory of those days. So we are very much in that sort of central generation of politics here in Northern Ireland. You said on the day you became deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, let us, you and the First Minister, be a source of hope to those young people watching, not one of despair. Why was that what you chose to say . Well, i think for many, many decades in Northern Ireland, it was a very dark time. There were so many lives that were blighted by violence, by conflict, but also because of that fear. And theres no doubt what happened here held people back. I think it damaged what they could do in their lives, what they could achieve in their lives. And really, you know, were 25 years on from the belfast good friday agreement, more than 25 years on from some of those cease fires. There are still challenges, but the world that i see around me in Northern Ireland is dramatically different than the world that i grew up with in the eighties and the nineties, and that is a really positive thing. There is so much more to be done. But you know, despite of that positive change over the last 25 years, i do think some of the narrative of division, the instability, the challenges that we have faced can and has been a source of despair for many people. And really, ithink right from the beginning of this journey that im on as deputy First Minister, along with michelle as First Minister, i wanted to set a really positive tone. I want to send that message that actually, despite of our differences here in Northern Ireland, that actually that difference can be a strength. It allows us to see things from different perspectives. That allows us to tackle challenges with all of the broader range of experiences that we have. Are you conscious of the imagery . I was struck by the selfie you had taken with michelle 0neill at the Northern Ireland womens team match at windsor park. That image of the daughter of a sinn fein man, the daughter of a loyalist, smiling together at a sporting occasion. It would have been unthinkable, what, 15, 20 years ago . Yeah, absolutely. And i think it is a testimony to how far we have come over the course of not just the last 25 years, but the last 100 years. You know, 100 years ago, Northern Ireland had just been created. And yet here we have an image of people from very different perspectives, two women of very different aspirations. I want a stronger United Kingdom. The First Minister, michelle 0neill, has an aspiration of a 32 County Independent ireland, completely different aspirations. But the fact that both of us are there supporting the Northern Ireland womens team with young people, really, really proud of their northern team. And thats really something that i have noticed over the last number of years, that regardless of community background, what were really seeing are people who are just really proud, young people who are really proud to be part of Northern Ireland, to be from Northern Ireland, and support the likes of our Northern Ireland team. Lets talk about your background then. You grow up in what people used to call border country. County armagh. More deaths in the troubles there, sadly, than there were in any place other than belfast. Do you remember when you first realized that you were living in the troubles with a capital t, in a place in which violence was a part of everyday life . I dont remember anything different from the context in which i grew up. The very politicised situation in markethill. The challenges of that brought with us and with it. And markethill was a very politicised place. It was right on the edge of south armagh. Many families who had been in the security forces, for example, many of the protestant families around south armagh, had moved up to Markethill Due to the threat of violence against theirfamily. So we were this small town, you know, an overwhelmingly protestant town on the very edge of south armagh, and a very republican area. So that, of course, brought challenges. There were an awful lot of threats. There were bomb attacks, mortar attacks, bomb scares, as we would have called them, which was when an alert would have come through, including when i was at the primary school, and we would have been bomb scared out. We would have had to physically had to leave. And, of course, many people shot and injured from the town over the eighties and into the nineties as well. So, yes, it was a very difficult place to grow up in. There was a bomb when you were 11 in your town of markethill. What do you remember of that . Again, a very, very significant incident of my childhood. Of course, as a child growing up, it was very clear cut to us. The enemy was republicanism. Republicanism wanted to kill the people of my town. They wanted to bomb the town. That was through the eyes of a child, very, very simply. And of course, as i got older, you understand the complexity of these things much better. But through the eyes of a child growing up in markethill, it was a very frightening place. And that bomb that day is something that absolutely stands out in my memory. A huge amount of devastation arising from that. There was barely a house or a business in markethill that wasnt impacted by that, wasnt significantly damaged by that. And it was a warm winter, warm summer afternoon, evening. Ijust remember walking through the town and there was just glass everywhere. The town really pulled together. There were teams of people out putting up and boarding up windows where the glass had been bombed out. But it was a real sense of a collective attack on our community, on our town. What did you know of the people who wre carrying out these attacks . Did you know who they were . Did you know what they wanted . Did you have a sense of who you were up against . Absolutely. Of course, in the eighties,and i explain this to young people today and they can scarcely believe it, but of course, we only had a small number of tv channels and everybody watched the news. As a child, you would have watched the news with your parents. I think everybody in Northern Ireland watched the news at that time. So i would have been very conscious of the political debates. My First Political memory was really Margaret Thatcher signing the Anglo Irish Agreement. At that time, within my community, it was seen as a huge betrayal. I remember the tangible sense of betrayal around that time. I remember watching her on television, signing that document. The Anglo Irish Agreement of 1985, for those who dont know it or dont remember, meant that the Irish Republic was at least consulted on some of the decisions taken about Northern Ireland. Betrayal is an interesting word, an important word. Why did it feel like betrayal . For the people of markethill, we were very strongly unionist. The majority of people in Northern Ireland wanted to stay within the United Kingdom and there was this sense around the Anglo Irish Agreement and other negotiations that perhaps the uk government wanted to put Northern Ireland into some form of a Halfway House with the republic of ireland by signing away aspects in relation to sovereignty. But of course at a more fundamental level it was because we were at that time fighting a war against the ira, it was a very clear narrative of the town and i think it was felt that actually the uk government should stand up and defend people like the neighbours and the Family Members and others in that town that were doing their best really, and in very, very difficult circumstances where we were under relentless violent attack. Now some people served in the udr, the Ulster Defence regiment, the army, in other words, some people served in the royal ulster constabulary, the ruc, the police. Others thought they had to go further. And your father was known to be a supporter of a group that wanted, well, it said it in the name, didnt it . Ulster resistance. He said at that time that he would oppose compromise to the bitter death. To the bitter end. To the death. What was in the mind of people like your father at that stage . They really thought their whole way of life was under assault, did they . I think thats right. Of course, i was a very young child at that time. I was only six years of age when the Anglo Irish Agreement had been signed. But there was, theres no doubt from speaking to people who were active in politics at that time, that there was this very strong view that by compromise, by this idea of weakening the union through either some sort ofjoint sovereignty with the Irish Republic, by giving away some of the sovereignty, if you were conceding or compromising on those issues, you were weakening the union. Now, looking back, we can obviously place it within the context of wider events, but of course, people acted at that time as they felt at that time. And theres no doubt it was a very, very difficult and challenging environment. You were a little girl at the time, and it must have been extraordinarily difficult for you. Youve talked about the sudden and unexpected arrest of your father. He was arrested in paris for Arms Trafficking for the Ulster Resistance group. Hell speak for himself. I wont ask you to speak for him, but how did it affect you . How did it affect the family . From the perspective of a child, i didnt understand any of the ins and outs of what really was happening in those particular circumstances. And i think to be absolutely clear, the vast, vast majority of people who went into the ruc, went into the udr, in terms of trying to defend the community, were completely legitimate. And certainly from my point of view, ive always stood very strongly against paramilitarism. Ive always stood very strongly that there was always an alternative to that. But, you know, placing myself into that context as a child, of course, it turned my life upside down. Undoubtedly it turned my life upside down. My father was away from the family home for a sustained period of time. There was a huge amount of publicity about the case and the impact really that had on my family life. Im always very conscious that for so many families in the eighties and the nineties, the loss that they suffered, the bereavement that their Family Members have been killed. Of course, that hurt, that story is the most important one to be told. But as a child of slightly different circumstances of the troubles, of course it had a massive impact on me. You know, i think in any of these things, when something traumatic happens you as a child, all of those, the differences, the issues, it all stands out. And its such a distinct part of my life. And it gave me this real drive around, you know, i suppose trying to take a little bit more control of my life. I recognised at a very early age that education was a great way of taking that control, of shapeing my life for the future. Because i think like most children in those circumstances, you dont, you dont, you lose every sense of control. Its an uncontrollable situation, something thats happening to you. Now, youve been clear that you dont support paramilitarism, but you are still obviously close to your father. He was at the Northern Ireland assembly for your first speech as deputy First Minister. I dont want to ask you to comment on what he did, because i think he wont. Butjust tell me about him before we move on and talk some more about you. Are you proud of him . Is he proud of you . Well, i have a very close relationship with my father. I said this when i first came into public life back in 2015. You know, i made clear, look, you know, people make different decisions in their lives. My father, of course, denies many of the allegations that are thrown in his direction. But ultimately, the choices that he has made in his life are his decisions. They are different decisions than i would make, ive made very, very clear where i stand on those issues. But like, you know, my father is my father. My daddy is my daddy. Hes the only one that i will ever have. And i love him, as i said at the time, unconditionally, i have a very close relationship with my father. And you said just a moment ago that you came to see the way out of the situation you were in. You thought of education being a route out. Well, look, i think that my family were in challenging financial circumstances. Of course they were, because of the change that had happened. My father was the person in the family that had worked. There were four of us, four children in the family. My mother had given up work to look after us. My mother always really fought incredibly hard for us as children. My mother didnt go to university, but it was something she believed really passionately in and every single day of my childhood, she would have emphasized that, she always urged us to really work at school. She provided those books. She really supported us throughout our lives. Now, you did get to Queens University in belfast. You studied law. You became active in politics as a supporter of the democratic unionist party, ian paisley� s party. So there is emma little pengelly, the future deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland in a catholic dominated university. I imagine conversation was quite lively. Debate was quite lively . Well, i was very feisty, as you can imagine, i was a very politically opinionated and a very feisty young person. I always think when i talk to people now and they think im quite a spirited, opinionated person, that if only they had known me back when i was 18 years of age. I came to Queens University in 1980 and it was just after the signing i came to Queens University in 1998 and it was just after the signing of the belfast agreement. 0bviously that was a hugely, that was a massive issue in Northern Ireland. It dominated in terms of all of the discussions. But of course, you know, tony blair, new labour were coming in, tuition fees were being talked about. So it wasnt just the constitutional issues at university here. Im struck by the fact you say you were much more feisty then. I mean, one of the things it strikes me that motivates you is that you believe in your community. You want to argue pas