and this week the labour leader keir starmer raised him in prime minister's questions, demanding to know whether he would rejoin the conservative party whilst behind the scenes worried tory mps discuss whether he might return to the front line leading the reform party. nigel farage, welcome back to political thinking. thank you. you are back where you like being, aren't you? the centre of attention. well, i've always been a bit of a show—off. i mean, there is some truth in that. yeah, it's a funny thing, but i think current affairs, politics and current affairs in the uk today has such a dearth of personalities that i find myself at the centre of debates, whether i'm trying to or not, i sort of get dragged into things. there are some people listening to the radio or watching the telly now who are saying, "why on earth are they talking to nigel farage? he's not a party leader". you've not been elected to anything for a very, very long time. well, that's not quite true, actually. "who cares what he thinks?" well, that's not quite true, actually, is it? because in may of 2019, you know, i led a party that had been alive forjust less than six weeks, that won an election, a european election, so dramatic that it forced the prime minister to resign immediately. so it's not that long ago that i was involved. but look, you know, conventionally we think you have to be in the house of commons to change public opinion in britain. thatjust is no longer the case, you know, through social media, through many other things, there are ways that people can people of influence can change the thinking of a country. there you are commentating, watching, and some people think you haven't got the guts to go on the pitch. that's where it's difficult. well, i could level that charge at you. perfectly fairly. but i've never claimed that i want to change britain, and you do. i've not argued for anything, i just ask awkward questions. when you say commentating, let me tell you something, right? there's nobody else in british politics or active current affairs as active on tiktok as i am. i'm not using tiktok to comment, i'm using tiktok to reach young people and say, "have you thought of it like this? have you ever considered that maybe the approach you're being taught at school isn't right? there's a different point of view". i want to talk to you about why you're not very optimistic any more. you said to me four years ago, "i'm feeling bullish and optimistic about the future. i want this historical moment to lead to a new british renaissance," you said. "i believe it can." i still believe it. are you in danger, by the way, of sounding and not just you, by the way, but lots of brexiteers now, liz truss wasn't one, but she's become one. suella braverman. we'll talk about them. you're sounding like morrissey from the smiths. i mean, heaven knows you're miserable now! you can't stop telling us how miserable everything is, the country is going to the dogs... i mean, the one thing i could never be accused of is being miserable. you know, i've never been miserable. i can be pessimistic on issues, yes, concerned about issues. i'm not a pessimist by nature, farfrom it. i'm a ludicrous optimist. i mean, who would have spent all those years in ukip unless i had been? is liz truss right? you sat with her. you interviewed her. at something called cpac, the conservative political action committee in washington, dc. and she said, "a deep state is running britain". ok, i'll tell you why she said that. the day before, there had been an international panel. i sat next to her. and she said that one of the biggest problems that she had was the quango—ocracy. well, of course, nobody in america understood that. she said that's your equivalent of the deep state. hence the use of that terminology. was she right in what she said? you know, i honestly believe that the role of the bank of england throughout all of this needs to be deeply questioned. all of this meaning her collapse? very much so. i mean, to think that the bank of england sold gilts on the open market on the eve of that budget — it really was an astonishing political intervention. to people who not unlike you, you're a former commodities trader, you work in the city... i know, i know. you think it was a political act to undermine the then prime minister who wanted to cut taxes? absolutely. i have no doubt about it. i've no doubt about it. and what was interesting about it was that the commitment, the energy commitment was massively bigger in terms of financial risk for the country than the cut in taxation. this was the bail—out liz truss was promising? because of the high bills. yeah, yeah. and so we have the bank of england doing this. we had the international monetary fund in washington saying but they shouldn't be cutting it, the uk shouldn't be cutting taxes. so she has a point. and suella braverman, she said the islamists, the extremists, the anti—semites are in charge now. well, "in charge" is a rather strong way of putting it. but i do think that the scenes we saw in parliament square last week were astonishing. i think the levels of intimidation against mps, notjust in westminster but now back in their constituencies is deeply, deeply concerning. our culture is, you know, nick, you and i can disagree vehemently, if you like, but we settle it, not outside in a fight, we settle it in an election. and provided we have free and fair elections, we accept the result. and there's just been a feeling over the last few weeks that there's now a lobby in this country. and yes, not all, by the way, we say islamists, the agenda might be about palestine — there are plenty of middle class white people taking part in those marches as well. so this is not purely a race issue. i want to come back to that issue at greater length. the other day you said something fascinating, "something very sexy is going on in british politics," said nigel farage. how could you be miserable and talking about this sexy thing going on? as i said to you, i'm never miserable. i might be upset about things. i might wish brexit to be done better, but i'm never miserable. what's sexy then? i was commenting on the by election results and the rise of reform. i tell you why it's sexy and why it's interesting. the rise of ukip was very hard won and took quite a long time. it took a very long time, and when ukip got to levels in the polls like this, i mean, i couldn't believe it. you know, we'd been battling away for years, we'd been building structure, we'd been raising money. reform has done this in a very, very, very short space of time, without much money, without much publicity, and without having a party machine. you're just back from the united states. nine days there meeting a man you always describe as your friend, donald trump. yeah. you met another friend, steve bannon? yeah. who was donald trump's chief strategist. he's described himself as a right—wing populist nationalist. yes, he does. and he's described you as a future prime minister. well, steve has all sorts of opinions and some we might agree with and some we might not. but forgive me, he offers you a model, doesn't he? which is the so—called maga movement, make america great movement, those red baseball caps we see on all trump supporters. before that, what was called the tea party. yeah. what they did is they effectively took over the big party. yes. they were separate. yes. is that the model you're now pursuing? well, that's a very interesting question, because, of course, if we had open primaries in this country, then... i mean, i tell you what, if there was an open primary right now, a rerun of the conservative leadership and it was myself against sunak, i think i'd win. i genuinely think i'd win amongst conservative members and registered conservative supporters — if we had the american system, i would win. reform, with or without me. and by the way, richard tice is doing very well with it. very well indeed. reform is going to get a lot of votes in this next election. i don't know how many — minimum four million, five, five and a half million. it's going to get a lot of votes. it'll win a few seats, it won't win very many because unless you break through a big threshold, you can't do it. but there comes a point... there comes a point when a significant chunk of the conservative party realise there are no more deals to be done. there's no more mr nice guy coming from our side of it. we did all that. they've let us down. we want to reshape british politics. and ijust don't see long term how people like myself and richard tice don't finish up in the same political party as jacob rees—mogg or a suella braverman. or a liz truss. of course. there is going to be... this has been talked about, by the way, for decades. but there is going to be a realignment of the centre right of british politics. why not get on and do it? nigel farage, get on, get into politics, stop messing about being a commentator, get serious again and do it. i've got a long track record of getting stuck in. everything is about timing. you know, i remember as brexit was going wrong, you know, siren voices, particularly in 2018 after the so—called chequers deal, everyone said, "nigel, if you don't get back involved right now in politics, you're letting the side down". and what did i do? i waited. and i waited and i waited. and i waited for the end of march to come and go. the moment in which we were supposed to leave and which i knew we weren't going to leave. and i waited till mid—april and launched something that took off like a rocket. timing is everything. well, let's talk about what sort of change you want to bring about. i said that steve bannon, donald trump's former strategist, friend of yours, described himself as a populist nationalist. would you use that term to describe yourself? i think nationalist is a very difficult word. i mean, i've always called myself a nationist. i'm a nationist. i believe in the nation state. i think that it is the unit. what are you nervous about with "nationalist" then? i think nationalism is a bit like alcohol, really, you know, a little bit of it in your life is rather good and too much is ruinous. it's interesting because this week, as you know, the leader of the opposition decided to talk about you at prime minister's questions and he said you agreed with the basic premise of enoch powell's rivers of blood speech. now, those young people you talk to on tiktok won't know the speech and won't know enoch powell. i mean, frankly, you know, to drag up a figure from 50 years ago was a very odd thing to do. well, he's a symbol, isn't he? enoch powell is a symbol for many people of someone who exploited the issue of race and immigration. for many, i said, you'll disagree, i know. actually, i think he... let me just remind listeners kind of who he was and the speech, the famous river of blood speech. infamous speech. infamous, yeah. it was a speech that used a classical quote to talk about rivers foaming with blood, a prediction of communal violence. but also another crucial phrase, "the black man will have a whip hand over the white man". he was quoting someone, but that's what he said. yeah. so let's just get the facts straight. are you... last time we talked, you said you had quite a lot of admiration for enoch powell. do you agree with him and the river of blood speech? i think the speech was the biggest mistake of his career. this was a very distinguished man. you know, let'sjust remember, he'd been the youngest brigadier in world war ii, the youngest professor in the british empire. this was a very distinguished man who was in a hurry. you know, he made a speech to shock. he was in a hurry. and the speech itself was a mistake. but the basic premise that he was... and take out the flowery language and quotes from other people, the basic premise was that if you have immigration on a scale without integration and he said himself, people will not recognise areas to be their own. so he was warning about the pace and rate of immigration, integration and change. and when you think about today, when to millions of traditional labour voters, and starmer must know this, you know, actually they look at parts of their cities and say, "what the hell's happened here? this isn't england any more". so the basic premise, taking everything out, the basic premise that if you finish up with divided communities, different cultures, little in common historically or culturally, that it's a recipe for problems, that basic premise is correct. well, i'd argue there were two premises. let's come back to unrecognisable. the other was a prediction of communal violence. that's why the rivers of blood, the foaming of much blood was used. was that right? i mean, we've seen up in birmingham, you know, mobs in the streets, fighting — hindu against muslim. i've seen manchester united fans fighting with liverpool fans. oh, no, no, no, no. fair point. that doesn't tell me anything about anything. perfectly reasonable point. but when you see the mob, you know, outside the palace of westminster last week, mps so scared that harriet harman, a very senior labour figure, has even suggested maybe we stay at home and vote on our computers. what's that got to do with mass migration? those are people who are angry about gaza. no, no, no. and some of them, you would argue, go madly over... the leaders of these demonstrations are people who have a different sense of priorities and come from very different culture to what would traditionally be seen to be british. because they�* re immigrants? there are plenty of people who of whom that might be true, who are supporters ofjeremy corbyn. because in many cases... i mean, your classic idea... i mean, take america, a country built on immigration... forgive me. let's just finish off on the thought you had, because you said that those people have different and i'm challenging that and saying, well, really? because of immigration? of course because of immigration, no question. if you come to this country and you say, right, you know what, we are going to absolutely integrate. our kids are going to play football in the local recreation ground with everybody else. we're going to become part of this community. and arguably, that had worked incredibly well, probably better than any other european country in terms of levels of integration. what we're seeing with these particular protest movements are leaders of these movements, they want to change british society. there's been a great debate this week about the word "islamophobic". when i spoke to peter tatchell, veteran campaigner, pro—palestinian marcher, he somewhat to my surprise on the today podcast said, "i don't like that word" because actually there are reasons to be fearful of islam, he said. if you're a gay man or woman, or if you're any sort of woman. you're nodding. i mean, would it be rational in your mind to be islamophobic? i have a huge regard for tatchell. i think he's one of the great campaigners over decades. i may not agree with all of his campaigns, but peter always is sensible, grown up, and peter's campaigns have always operated within the framework of a democratic country. what about the question? on the question, well, look, i mean, i think this is really difficult. you know, the equality act of 2010, the putting in place of hate speech laws just leave you in a perpetual muddle because they're all subjective judgements. and the way the law was written was, well, it's hate speech if the person or group you say something about believes they have been harmed by it. but in a sense, i'm talking about... so we're in a mess. i want to get to deep down. does nigel farris think it's rational? because you've said immigrants are coming, they're changing the nature of britain. is it rational to have a phobia about islam? i tell you what is irrational. that is the way... you're changing the subject. i'm going to come back. i'm asking, are you islamophobic and proud of it? no, i'm going to come back to this. yeah, ok. what is irrational is that the national debate this week has been about a comment lee anderson made, whether it's islamophobic or not, not about the threat to our democratic institutions, not to the way certain by—election candidates have been treated and the fear they've been put through in a very significant by—election, not about the increasing sectarian nature of policies. what's the answer to the question? i'm very, very fearful of extreme islam, very, very fearful. and i know there are also a huge number of muslims living and working in britain. i'm going to suggest you're islamophobic and proud. no, that's not fair to say. no? no, that's not fair to say. your words, not mine. i would argue that the people who are most fearful of radical islam are peace—loving, hardworking muslims living in this country who are very worried about their futures. let's talk quickly about the issue of the week, these protests. you'd ban them? it's a devilish problem, i think. i tell you what's rational as an answer to that — you allow demonstrations, of course you do. we've always allowed demonstrations. you don't allow them every saturday. 0k. would you arrest anybody who says "from the river to the sea, palestine will be free?" plenty of people think it's a perfectly peaceful statement. some people think it's anti—israel and anti—semitic. well, it's notjust anti—israel. it's about the eradication of israel and the people living in it. not in the minds of plenty of people who say it. in the minds of many, it is. i tell you who i would arrest — the people that put it on the elizabeth tower that houses big ben. i'd arrest them. you mentioned lee anderson. i put to you, if you changed the name of the mayor of london, you called him mr goldstein, he wasjewish, and you suggested he was controlled, lee anderson's word by zionists... yeah. you would say, or wouldn't you, that was racism? clear and simple. yes. no, i think you were sort of. why are you excusing lee anderson? you'd be injeremy corbyn land. why are you excusing mr anderson? i'm not excusing him. i say what is also interesting. well, honestly, why don't you just say? i'll tell you. i said completely. i'll explain it to you. there is something else london gets wrong. not only do the commentariat and the politicians in london misunderstand the genuine concerns out of the country, they're also incredibly middle class and very, very snobby. and when you have genuinely working class people coming into public life, they sometimes say things, express emotions, perhaps don't use quite the queen's english in the way that presenters on the today programme or elsewhere would do. look, i accept all that. then when it's pointed out to you, you've basically said a muslim is controlled by islamists. you say, look, really sorry, that's not what i meant. i meant something. it was an opinion that lee gave. he has admitted he was clumsy. back to your old friend. it's back to donald trump. people say, how can you stand alongside a man who describes immigrants as poisoning the blood of our country? he says, "we need to root out the communist marxist fascists and the radical left thugs that, quote, live like vermin within the confines of our country". never take everything trump says literally, and if you do, you're going to finish up in the wrong place. words matter, actions matter. and for years as a president, you know, you name me an american president with a better foreign policy than trump in the last 50 years. i'm glad you said actions because the challenge always to nigel farage, well, what would he do if he actually had power? right. quite right. i'm making you prime minister now. immigration? yeah. very high figures. your prime minister today, what do you do? well, they're not high figures. they're completely out of control. we've never seen anything like this in our lives. just to give people a context of this. you know, when mr blair came to power, there were 58 million people living in the country. and that number had been pretty stable for a long, long time. there are now officially 68 million people living in the country, although we know it's higher and it's going to be 75 million by the mid 20305. and there is no bigger issue that's affected the lives of ordinary folk, whether it's getting a doctor's appointment or a house for their kids than this. sure. but what do you do? we have to get down to, you know, i mean, net zero would be an ideal for a few years. what do you do, you're prime minister? you come in. tell you what happens. you come in. your prime minister and i am the cabinet secretary. briefly, i'll tell you why i say to you. isaid, well, mr farage, i know that you want to get immigration now, but we have got this huge shortage of nurses. would you like me to stop nurses coming here? not in a year, two years, five years, ten. today you're prime minister. you just can't. and that's the other interesting thing. what's the answer? do you know the answer? the answer is what is work and what is migration? but the two have been put together. so you come on a work visa, you can stay. that should never, ever happen. we should be training our own nurses. but that doesn't happen overnight. so do you stop it? you try as much as you can to let market forces work. i tell you why i say this. well, market forces. the nurses, the brilliant carers. no, no, no, no, no. low skilled workers. no, no, no. i predicted in 2004 that there would be a vast number of people come from the former communist countries in europe. expanded to involve poland, bulgaria, romania. and i rememberyou, nick robinson, saying to me, oh, well, no—one's coming from romania. nigel was completely wrong. there were now over 1.1 million people from romania here. all right. i was right about all these things. what that's effectively done and one of the reasons the working classes are as upset as they are is we've now been through a quite prolonged period where the minimum wage has become the maximum wage. i'm still wondering what you would do? i think you're giving me a running commentary. you're not listening. market forces, oversupply of labour drives down wages. a shortage of labour drives up wages. we currently have 5.4 million people of working age who are not working, and in many cases they are disincentivised by the tax system from going back to work. you can't do one thing on its own without something else that compensates. if you lift the threshold at which tax starts to be paid and you do have shortages, whether it's baristas or nurses, what you find are people in their 50s who've kind of packed up come back. understood. so in other words, you don't stop immigration overnight. you might need some of it, but you can change the incentives. absolutely. and so on. well, you're not prime minister yet and you may not go back into politics. you've been very clear about this. now, when we talked last time we talked about the fact you've had your challenges. and you were kind enough to say you had. you dodged cancer, you survived a plane crash. yeah. and you said that 30 years of campaigning you'd always known might wreck your marriage, destroy your business, and make you poor. all of that was true. what on earth are you thinking of going back into that? quite right! i mean, no, you know, compared to four years ago when i made those comments, you know, life has been immeasurably better in lots and lots of ways. well, i take the credit. you know, you've had your challenges and, you know, i mean, your cancer was far worse than mine. but no, this is for me a massive decision. you know, i'm going to be 60 in a couple of weeks' time. and let's say i fight the general election. let's say i'll win a seat in westminster. well, that's a minimum five—year commitment. it's a minimum five—year commitment. so it's a decision for me that will take me beyond what would normally be retirement age. it is back into a life of increased scrutiny. i mean, not that i haven't got it already, but of massively increased scrutiny, the additional pressures that adds on family, close connections. it's a massive decision. you know, going into public service is a massive, massive decision. and, you know, that will be part of my calculation. the biggest part, though... the biggest part will be is the timing right? can i do something? i'm not interested in just winning a seat. i did 20 years in the european parliament, just serving five years in westminster or ten years, that's of no interest to me. i will come back into this and do this if i think i can really help orchestrate historic change. nigel farage, thanks forjoining me again on political thinking. thank you. hello, thanks forjoining me. let's see what the weather is up to for the rest of today and, indeed, the next few days. here's the summary for this evening. for most of us, dry and chilly, and with clearer skies this evening and overnight, another frost on the way. now, in the next few days, it's actually going to turn a little less chilly. we'll see these milder southwesterlies developing. that's from around about mid—week onwards. ok, the forecast, then — starting with the satellite picture, and you can see how big the gaps in the clouds have been, all of that bright, if not sunny weather today. the evening temperatures will already be pretty low. in fact, by the time we get to about 6pm, only four degrees for birmingham, five degrees for glasgow. generally dry, just a few showers scattered here and there. so the forecast, then, for tonight — a lot of clear, dry weather, just a few showers again in the western isles, maybe one or two out towards the west. there is a weather front approaching. that does spell rain for tomorrow, but ahead of it, before it arrives, it's a frosty morning and, in fact, temperatures around freezing, whether you're in aberdeen or on the south coast of england. plymouth there at around three celsius above freezing. the weather map for monday shows that weather front approaching south—western parts of the uk. so that introduces thicker cloud and outbreaks of rain i think later on in the morning. so ahead of it, a lot of bright if not sunny weather, and then that weather front sweeps into the south—west, into wales, eventually through ireland, into northern ireland. but notice many eastern and northern areas, especially here in scotland, should have a sunny day, and the temperatures about the same — eight in aberdeen, ten in hull, 12 in london, and with that strengthening wind there, about nine degrees with that rain in cornwall and devon. tuesday, that weather front eventually moves across the uk. it's going to fizzle out and i think there will be some light rain around in the morning in scotland, some of these eastern counties closer to the north sea coast. but out towards the west, it's generally dry and bright on tuesday. and again, not a huge amount of change in the temperature — between around nine and 12 degrees celsius. but we'll start to see that slightly less cold air sweeping in so i think across the bulk of the uk, temperatures should be just around double figures, but it's not going to be a huge change. and the weather i think a little drier as we go through the course of the week. live from london. this is bbc news. a hold—up in the gaza peace talks, israel is reported not to be sending a delegation to cairo. uk chancellorjeremy hunt has said he wants to find a way to bring down the tax burden, ahead of the spring budget this week. a seven—year—old girl has drowned after a small boat, carrying migrants heading to the, capsized in northern france. parliament in pakistan has elected shehbaz sharif as prime minister for a second term. and it's a record—breaking night at the brit awards, as raye picks up six prizes. hello. you are watching bbc news. our breaking news this hour, there are reports of a hold—up in negotiations for a temporary ceasefire in gaza. israel is reported not to be sending a delegation to talks taking place in cairo. that's despite us officials saying a ceasefire deal was already "on the table" and israel had approved it. the sticking point appears to be hamas not supplying a list of the hostages who would be released. washington had been hoping for a deal by monday, taking effect before ramadan in a week's time. i asked our correspondent wyre davies, who is now injerusalem, about the doubts regarding whether the israeli

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