exactly, bbc one taken over for three hours. the only thing we would ever have in common withjoe rogan. serious subject first. we have an inquiry out today, or the first part of an inquiry, that was looking at how wayne couzens, the serving metropolitan police officer who murdered sarah everard in 2021 in london, could ever have been a metropolitan police officer. what was it like for you, as somebody who has got political oversight of that force, reading that report? because in every single page there was something really bad that had gone wrong over decades? can i begin the conversation by speaking about sarah, sarah everard and her family, her parents and her siblings? it is important to remember her in the context of this conversation. i remember vividly the days after sarah disappeared because i live not far from where sarah disappeared from, and it was during the pandemic and my wife and daughters would go regularly for walks in and around that area. so it brings it all back, not just to sarah and her family but to those of us who are living around the area. but actually all women and girls, and those of us who have got family, women and girls, would be impacted by today's report. the reason why the report is so important is because it is quite clear this sexual predator and this sex offender was known prior tojoining one of the three police forces he joined. so he should never have joined the police service in the first place. kent constabulary, the civil nuclear authority, the met police service. during his service in all three police forces, it was clear, there were warnings, there were signals, there were red flags. they were not taken seriously. in the days preceding the abduction, rape and murder of sarah, again, his inappropriate behaviour was demonstrated by the indecent exposure. which he had done quite a few times. that is one of the many things that he has done. one of the reasons why i lost confidence with the former commissioner was a failure to understand the systemic and cultural failings but also have a plan to take action. an example of that is just the fact that this guy was showing horrible photographs with fellow officers and nobody called him out, nobody reported him and no action was taken. so this is an issue that i think all police forces must look into. we have got to make sure we change the culture systems within the police service. it is far, far too easy to become a police officer. it is far too difficult to get rid of a dodgy officer. but also, we have got to be an organisation, the met police service and all the others that is anti—misogynistic, anti—racist, anti—homophobic. so there isn't a culture where this sort of behaviour is acceptable. that is a striking thing, isn't it? that this wasn't just a single police force. this wasn'tjust a force where you could say, there is a particular culture in force a that is an exception here? there was three. i was reflecting a couple of years ago, when this all really got to the fore. whether you work for the bbc, city hall, sainsbury's or the police service, some sort of behaviour from your colleagues you know is out of order and you report it, right? but with police officers, because they've got this huge amount of power, a huge amount of discretion, it is even more incumbent for there to be checks and balances. and let us be quite clear, the only reason sarah got into the car was because this guy showed his warrant card. sarah's parents have said, and her siblings, she would not have got into a car with a stranger, so we know that sarah was abducted, raped and murdered because this man was a police officer. and chris is right, this isn'tjust a police service issue, and we have been trying in the last few years to change the culture within the police service of london, it is an issue for all of policing. that is why i am really pleased the national police chiefs' council are responding today as one, as all 43 police forces. lady angiolini, the scottish lawyer who did this inquiry, and there is still two more parts of this inquiry to go, so we could learn even more awful details about how bad the police are with some things, she says, just doing existing policies to stamp out existing policies to stamp out misogyny better isn't enough. but to me, that sounds like she is being critical of existing police chiefs, who say we don't need to come up with anything new to sort out the culture problems in the police, we just need to do existing things a bit better. i know as somebody, because of my life experiences, what it is like to be different in how you are treated by the police. when i first became the mayor of london and was told by senior police officers, including the former police commissioner, these are some rotten apples, or the phrase used was wrong 'uns. it is notjust some wrong 'uns or bad apples, there are systems it is notjust some wrong 'uns or some bad apples, there are systems and cultures in place that encourage people like this tojoin. but also, they stay within this organisation without action being taken. there are other brave officers who do report it. it takes two years for that complaint to be investigated. no action is taken. the leaders haven't got the proper training, there isn't a proper supervision. the right processes are not in place. so if you are a woman police officer, you think, what's the point in making a complaint? if you are a black police officer, what is the point in making a complaint? and that is within the police service. imagine members of the public. the point of my question was, the proposals that sir mark rowley, the boss of the met, has put to you and others about how he is going to reform the met in terms of all this stuff, are they sufficient, do they meet the size of the challenge? or do we need a sort of step change? something different? what we have in this report is 16 further recommendations. so what sir mark did when he became the commissioner of the police service with his number two, dame lynne owens, is go and speak to londoners. he deserves huge credit. he went to every single borough with his top team and engaged with londoners. he listened and he responded with what he calls, and i support, the new met for london plan. no other police force has that, by the way. the only police service in the country to have that. the recommendations today want us to go even further. we will go even further. if these cultural issues are as deeply embedded in the mindset of policing institutions, for all of the attempts to change that, is it notjust going to take a generation or a whole generation of officers and support staff to leave and the next generation to come on? because you are trying to change the culture and habits of thousands of people and perhaps an institutional mentality, and that might be admirable but it is likely to be blooming difficult. the really good news is, and it's important i say this, there are tens of thousands of brilliant officers, thoroughly decent, thoroughly brave, with the right values. they need our support by changing the systems. to create an environment where they can speak up? spot on. you would say, if you were a supervisor in any police service, if somebody makes a complaint about racism or sexism, you take it seriously. the point is creating an environment where people know that sort of behaviour is unacceptable so they don't use that sort of language. but also, simple things we can do. speed up the process when a complaint is made. make sure the hearings are heard much quicker. make sure there is automatic suspension whenever a serious allegation is made but also dismissal, with some officers being found guilty. as i said, it is far too easy to become a police officer, with the huge powers they have. it is far too difficult to get rid of bad officers. but also the culture needs to change. and by the way, it isn't just a police issue. a lot of these institutions within our country have a systemic and cultural issues that demand addressing. one of the other things that the report finds, and i thought this was quite interesting because it wasjust looking at how crime is dealt with more generally, was about the fact that wayne couzens had been found guilty of indecent exposure, which in the old days people might have called flashing. and actually, we need a cultural change about how we deal with that crime. it is worse than that. he was never found guilty of indecent exposure because no one took it seriously. and here is the point she is making, which is a really important point... if there is a spectrum of offences, a red flag is somebody who indecently exposes. because the police nationally — it is a trivial offence, it is not really serious, it is somebody having fun — don't take it that seriously, those red flags, those early warnings weren't taken seriously. so it wasn't followed up, he wasn't arrested, he was not charged, he wasn't found guilty, he wasn't kicked out. and that is the point she is talking about. police services across the country are not treating indecent exposure seriously. but this is an early warning/red flag that the police must take seriously. so what are you going to do as the mayor of london to make sure that crime is taken more seriously on our public transport network, in our parks, in our streets? many of your listeners who have used public transport will have seen the poster we have got — report it to stop it. all three of us, when we use public transport, haven't got the same shared experience as your women listeners. and girls. i'm very conscious this is three blokes. i'm very conscious this is three blokes having this conversation. because in rush hour, we've never been touched up. we've never had somebody taking a photograph up our skirts. we've never had somebody acting inappropriately towards us, staring and so forth. so we have to educate ourselves as men, and it's got to start early with boys at school in relation to understanding what sort of behaviour is acceptable and what behaviour isn't acceptable, but also we have to show allyship, because if you are woman or a girl, often on public transport, or it could be a nightclub, it could be a bar, it could be a place of work, often you need allyship because you are maybe by yourself and so we have done a lot of work in city hall to try and educate the public in a non—patronising way. let's talk about the other big news story this week that you found yourself at the centre of, involving lee anderson, the former deputy chairman of the conservatives, now a former conservative mp because he has lost the whip, to use the parliamentaryjargon. lots we could ask you about your role scrutinising the metropolitan police, but let's talk about the human thing first, and how you felt in your head, in your heart, in your stomach when you first watched that video featuring lee anderson. we are speaking on thursday, and this happened six days ago. the last six days has been an emotional roller—coaster. sadness, anger, frustration. upset. heartbreak. depending on which day of the week you and i would have spoken on, i would have given a different answer. let me tell you why... there are certain conspiracy theories, certain tropes, certain generalisation, certain lazy untruths that are anti—semitic, and we know what they are. i'm not going to repeat them. you can apply the same towards misogyny and homophobia. you know what they are, i'm not going to repeat them. when you say things like muslims have taken over london or the islamification of our society, muslim sleeper cells, words like londonistan. those are all islamophobic, anti—muslim, racist phrases. they should be called out for what they are. you and i can have a discussion and you can robustly challenge me as respected journalist and me as the police and crime commissioner about policing in london. we can talk about all sorts of policies. we just talked about a really serious issue. in my view, my faith is irrelevant. and the fact that you are bringing my faith in means your motives are questionable. now, let me share my heartbreak and my sadness. in real—time, i have called out anti—semitism in my party, including senior members of the labour party, in real—time. homophobia, misogyny. we talked about misogyny in the police service. this is islamophobic, anti—muslim and racist. where is the leader of the conservative party? where is the deputy prime minister? where is the cabinet? where is my mayoral opponent? well, they suspended lee from the party. let's be quite clear about this. none of those people have mentioned having used the word islamophobic or anti—muslim. let me ask you this question. when the prime minister or deputy prime minister say it is wrong, it is unacceptable, why? he was suspended for a failure to apologise, for what? and i will tell you what, there's double standards are at play here because rightly we would call out anti—semitic behaviour. we would call it out. or homophobic or misogyny. why are sunak, dowden, the cabinet, hall, so scared to say this is islamophobic, anti—muslim and racist? and the distraction they have, and it is a distraction, it is sophistry, is we don't like the definition of islamophobia. this is blasphemy by the back door. that is ridiculous. because the same arguments used against corbyn and co when they refused to accept the definition of anti—semitism. that was the definition that was come up with by the ihra. i accepted that as the mayor straight away. this definition was come up with by the united nations, the all— party parliamentary group and others, but even park that, don't use the word islamophobic, call it anti—muslim hatred, call it racism. why are they failing to do so? there is a few things there. first of all, the definition, it is there no valid is there no valid criticism of that definition? is there no valid reason why you as a person or as an organisation might not want to sign up to it fully? the all— party parliamentary group looked into this, the united nations looked into this, the short answer is, nobody is saying that the religion of islam deserves protection. this ain't about protecting islam, it's not blasphemy by the back door, it is about protecting the followers of the religion of islam, brackets muslims close brackets. let me be clear, if my name was cohen, right, name was cohen, and this guy said that i was controlled by my mates in the city, what would be the first thing that sunak would have said? what was the first thing he would have said? it is anti—semitic, kick him out. right? how is khan, i am controlled by whatever he said, how is that different? why do you think it is interpreted as different by some? i think that is for sunak and dowden and some of the others to explain. there is a number of explanations i have been given over the last six days by friends of mine who are in the conservative party and it is really important to say this on air. i have been contacted by friends in the conservative party who are outraged. it should notjust be for the likes of sajid javid, nusrat ghani and sayeeda warsi to be brave in their party, just like in my party it was unacceptable for louise ellman, luciana berger and ruth smeeth to be talking about this. they need allies like me and others who are allies in real time. so that's the first thing. i'm not saying, i'm really not saying this, that all conservatives are islamophobic come all the rest of it and stuff, i'm not saying that, i'm not accusing sunak of being islamophobic or anti—muslim or racist. what i'm saying is what this guy said last friday was and it should be called out. the explanations i have been given is because, hold on a second if you look back at what he said, it is fascinating. i didn't realise this until somebody pointed it out to me. the reason why he began talking about this was he was saying suella braverman, the immediate last home secretary, had gone too far in saying the country was run by islamists. so he is saying, no, no, no, i'm paraphrasing, all right? no, no, braverman is wrong, it's not the country that is run by islamists, but london is, sadiq khan under but london is, sadiq khan, under the control of his mates. what is the difference between the country and london? answer, the mayor is of islamic faith and of pakistani origin. is there a distinction? because you have used the word islamophobic and the word racist. is there a distinction between those two things, given you can be a follower of islam, and not of a different race, you know, it isn't necessarily a racial thing? i don't want to get into legal jurisprudence, but in shorthand, there are different definitions of anti—semitism, there is case law about anti—semitism, because historically, it's not any—more, but with islam you can be a follower of islam but of different ethnicities. yes — question, those muslims who are practising who are white, we don't know they are muslims because they don't have a name like sadiq khan, they have not got brown skin, they are not of pakistani, there are all sorts of questions you could ask if there was a court case, which there's not going to be. someone is missing their legal career! my point is, that is why i'm saying, listen, let's not go down that path of islamophobia, anti—muslim hatred. racism. — use any one of those things. sunak, dowden, the cabinet... it's interesting because tom tugendhat, the security minister, did use that phrase... and tom deserves credit. that is my point, i will never make sweeping generalisations about conservatives because of the actions of this man. but the failure to take action should shame sunak, should shame dowden and, by the way, i wish tom was a proper member of the cabinet rather than attending cabinet. i hear your argument about islamophobia and anti—muslim hatred butjust going back to that argument that what lee anderson said was racist, why was it that? well, let's go back a stage... and he denies that it was. let's go back a stage in relation to what we are talking about. we are talking about a context where, you know, lam of pakistani origin, the previous two mayors weren't, and would he have said those things if either of the previous two people were mayor? that is the first point. second point is, we know, since october 7th, you know, emotions are running high in all our communities. i have tried really hard to bring our communities together over the last eight years being the mayor, there has been a massive increase in anti—semitism, a massive increase in islamophobic anti—muslim hate crime. so the context of these comments are really important in relation to what he said and when he said them. and so the reason why i have deliberately used the phrase over the last six days, islamophobic, anti—muslim and racist, is because that is what it is, relation to the tropes, what it is, in relation to the tropes, in relation to the generalisations, in relation to the lazy truths, in relation to the lazy untruths, in relation to what we know are things that have been said about muslims in the past. and by the way, you can change some of the language, and exactly the same things were said about our dear friends who are jewish, and i have called that out, as have the sunaks, the dowdens of the cabinet, and i'm unclear why they are not calling this out. let's talk about the broader issue away from his words specifically around you, and the broader questions around policing and protests in london with your role overseeing the metropolitan police. one of the things he talked about was the projection of that phrase, from the river to the sea, which plenty of people regard as anti—semitic, onto the elizabeth tower with big ben at the top. is that wrong, to do something like that? it is wrong, it is wrong, full—stop, it is wrong. how come it is allowed to happen? this is the nub of this. do we want a politician, whether he is the mayor or the deputy chairman of the conservative party or anybody else, telling the police who to charge, telling the police which protests are allowed to go ahead or not allowed to go ahead, or do we have operational independence, where the commissioner polices without fear or favour, as do police officers? now, listen, i think you can park for a second freedom of speech, you can even park braking the law, it is insensitive and it is creating fear, it is hurtful, don't do it. don-t do it. — and the same goes for chants. whether or not you have the freedom of speech to say it, whether or not the context makes it lawful, don't. because i'm telling you, we have friends, neighbours and colleagues, all of us, who are scared because they are jewish, right? do you think that slogan is anti—semitic, by the way? i think it can be sometimes, sometimes it breaks the law, and action has been taken. there has been more than 400 arrests since october 7th, many in relation to anti—semitism. sometimes it is breaking the criminal law. sometimes it could be laws in relation to incitement, but i'm saying, don't go there. you know, right, as someone who is projecting this i don't who is projecting this — i don't mean you personally, you know, as someone who is projecting this, it is causing hurt. you know that there are jewish people who are scared to come into central london on certain days of the week for no other reason than because they are jewish, their culture, their faith, their religion. and you also know there has been a massive increase in anti—semitic crimes. why do it? i get obviously part of your role as a leader is to make that case, it is back to the cultural change argument we were having a few minutes ago on a different topic, but what about your specific role and the conversations you have with the police about how they go about changing, or not, their approach to political protests? we saw the prime minister and home secretary meeting policing leaders yesterday and this protocol that they published. broadly speaking, it was about emphasising the existing toolkit that police officers have within the law. does there need to be a mindset change, given the scale of political protests we are seeing and the tactics, notjust in the context of what is happening in the middle east, there is the questions about extinction rebellion and others, around what amounts to legitimate protest? the prime minister was even talking about it in the context of what it means to be british. obviously protest is about attracting attention, sometimes causing outrage to try and exact change. but does there need to be a step change, policing wise, about their approach, their mentality to political protests? look, i am somebody that called jo cox a close friend. i knew david amess as a parliamentary colleague, and it is a matter of public record i receive police protection. so, you know, personal experience, i know the consequences in relation to the risks that politicians take. but also, i am someone who believes passionately about the importance of open democracy, us being accessible, us being accessible to our voters. the joy of living in this country rather than north korea or russia is that we are a democracy, and protest is a cornerstone of democracy. in my view, it should be done in a lawful and peaceful and safe. i'm very anxious when the prime minister uses phrases like mob rule. yes, i think it is really important we don't allow parliamentarians to be intimidated, scared, frightened, or their families. do you think that happened a week ago? i think there have been examples, i have spoken to friends of mine who are mps who are scared. scared to go about their constituency. that is mob rule, isn't it? i have met parliamentarians whose staff members are scared to come to their office. and so of course we need to make sure they are safe, we need to make sure the police do theirjob... but isn't that mob rule? isn't the prime minister onto something? given what you have just described... but hold on a sec, at the same time, i think when you have people who have legitimate concerns, they should be encouraged to protest in a way that is lawful, peaceful and safe. so what i would rather the prime minister do was, listen, temperatures are running high, i know you feel strongly about these issues, yes, of course you can protest, i encourage you to protest. what you should not be doing is, you know, making threats or making parliamentarians and their families frightened because that is what you are doing. that is back to the mindset of the protesters as opposed to what you are saying in your role as police and crime commissioner... can i just interrupt? this whole conversation is actually making me feel quite depressed and really anxious and i'm not even subjected to any of this. are we actually approaching a bit of a crisis? i think one of the issues, living in a democracy, is there are these tensions, and these are good tensions to have, these are good discussions to have. this seems beyond the usual tensions. this is, like, getting scary. adam, i rememberthe days preceding jo cox's murder, i would not want to relive those and brendan lives with them every day, her partner. and her kids. stephen timms is a dear friend of mine, he luckily survived being stabbed. and david amess of course was killed. and i have spoken to the new mayor of gdansk, the former mayor was assassinated, the former prime minister ofjapan was assassinated. and i could go on in relation to what happens across the world in relation to the risk that politicians live under. but it is really important we give the police the resources. so i welcome the part of the prime minister's announcement this week where there is additional resources for the police, really important, but what i want leaders to do, responsibly to bring communities together. if you are a young person growing up who is angry about the issue a, b or c, i want to give you a channel to channel that anger, right? that is the joy of a democracy. join a political party, lobby your mp, go to a march, sign a petition, you know, stand for office, right? that is the sort of language we want our leaders to use rather than using words like mob rule that makes you feel like the other when actually someone should be explaining the consequences of you going outside an mp's home or the leader of the labour party's home, or the mayor's home. i am told you have got a bus to catch and a city to run! but before you go, very quickly, yesterday chris did not know anything about the willy wonka experience in glasgow, the really quite shoddy tourist attraction that everyone complained about! london has lots of live events. what if that had happened in london? what would you have done? it would never happen in london! listen, it is possible, when abba voyage began with avatars, it could have been a damp squib but it wasn't. but can ijust say, you go to any event in london, you will not have the willy wonka experience that was had in glasgow... guarantee it will never happen! i cannot guarantee a cheerful oompa loompa or timothee chalamet, but what i can guarantee is value for money. well, thanks for coming in and good to catch up. always a pleasure. if you enjoyed watching this, we have a treat for you, chris and i will be reassembling on the iplayer 6am on monday morning to bring you a live episode of newscast digesting what has happened overnight in rochdale. although overnight is just accounting, it is during the day. but tune in bbc iplayer to seven o'clock and we will see you then. bye—bye. o'clock and we will see you then. b e-b e. �* , —— friday morning. hello. it's been quite a cold day, a lot of cloud, frequent showers across parts of england and wales but the skies are clearing across some parts of the country, a touch of frost on the way and some fog, but showers never too far away in northern england and scotland. let's start with the air mass saturday evening, the blue colours indicating the relatively cold air over us. that will be in place in the short term. if we look at the recent snapshot of the satellite picture, these rugged, swirling cloud structures across england and wales, the same in scotland, shower clouds, but in between the gaps in the clouds will become bigger through the course of this evening. look at that, nine o'clock, 2 degrees in some spots in the midlands, still some wet weather around merseyside, southern scotland, but notice the persistent rain moving into central and eastern scotland, a bit of snow across the mountains. to the south of that, those skies clearing and temperatures early on sunday morning, even in some city centres as far south as the south coast of england could be around freezing or below. certainly a chilly start to sunday on the way. this is the weather map for sunday, weather fronts in the north sea and generally to the north of scotland. there is another one coming our way, but we are in between weather systems. that implies it will be a slightly brighter day on sunday. remember, a chilly start, frost in places, and a bit of fog, too. through the day, generally bright or sunny skies out towards the south and west. perhaps a bit more cloud around east anglia, the south—east, maybe the lincolnshire coast line with that weather front close by. but overall, a brighter day for most of us and as a result it will feel a little bit, let's say, less cold. into monday morning, another weather front moves into south—western and western parts of the uk, so it moves across ireland, some rain, strengthening winds, too. but it tends to stall out towards the west during the day so that does mean that many central and eastern areas, certainly eastern scotland, should have a bright, if not sunny, day. for example around aberdeenshire. how about the outlook for the week ahead? a bit of a mixed bag but the temperatures holding around double figures i think across most parts of the uk. that's it, bye. live from london. this is bbc news. after president biden's pledge on friday, us military planes have begun dropping aid into gaza. the un says many of the people injured in an aid convoy rush in gaza on thursday were wounded by gun shots. rishi sunak says islamist and far—right extremists are "two sides of the same coin" who loathe britain. and tonight is one of the biggest nights in british music — the brit awards — which recognise the best pop music of the year. hello, i'm rich preston. we begin with the conflict in gaza where the us military has carried out it's first air—drop of food aid, amid a growing humanitarian crisis in the territory following months of war. thousands of meals have been parachuted in by three military planes. it follows a pledge on friday by president biden. egyptian sources say talks on trying to secure a ceasefire in gaza are set to resume in cairo on sunday. it's understood there's been some progress. but the violence continues — at least 13 palestinians, including a medic, are reported to have been killed by an israeli air strike near a hospital. and a united nations team visiting gaza's biggest hospital has found