against what he called "extremists undermining democracy" as george galloway is re—elected to parliament. the new mp for rochdale, george galloway, tells newsnight that democracy has just happened, and that he was the winner. what is keir starmer doing wrong? i know that you are so sad about the result because i have been watching you on television, and all that i can say is, cry more! and labour leader keir starmer apologises, claiming labour would have won with a formal candidate. galloway only matter first because labour _ galloway only matter first because labour didn't stand a candidate. —— galloway— labour didn't stand a candidate. —— galloway only won because. we've assembled a friday night political panel to chew over the result and the reaction. also tonight... the world's richest man has effectively pitched himself against the world's biggest company for the future of technology, and perhaps humanity. stick with us and we'll explain, helped by an adviser to the un on al. and... music the latest track from jungle, who'll be performing at the brits tomorrow night, where they've been nominated for best group. what better than appearing at the brits than appearing on newsnight beforehand? good evening. what starts in rochdale can change british politics and affect the world. what starts in rochdale can change british politics and affect the world. the cooperative movement was born in the greater manchester town a century and a half ago. its new mp, george galloway, claimed the mantle of change after his election there last night, with his sights aimed at keir starmer and those labour voters disappointed at the party's reaction to the gaza war. tonight's intervention by the prime minister about what he called a "beyond alarming" by—election and "shocking" increases in extremist disruption was an attempt to bring the country together, he said. but there was no new policy. the move also elevated what might have been a local difficulty for the opposition into a national moment. nick watt has been in rochdale. what's the purpose of this intervention? as far as the prime minister is concerned, this is a genuine call for national unity, for us all to stand together to combat what he calls extremist disruption and criminality. he calls extremist disruption and criminality-— calls extremist disruption and criminali . ., ., , ., criminality. he thinks an example of that move away. — criminality. he thinks an example of that move away, that _ criminality. he thinks an example of that move away, that lurch - criminality. he thinks an example of that move away, that lurch away, i criminality. he thinks an example of that move away, that lurch away, is| that move away, that lurch away, is george galloway�*s victory in the rochdale by—election which he describes as beyond are lame. let's just get a flavour of what the prime minister had to say. i fear that our great achievement in building the world's most successful multiethnic, multi—faith democracy is being deliberately undermined. there are forces here at home trying to tear us apart. since october the 7th, there have been those trying to take advantage of the very human angst that we all feel about the terrible suffering that war brings to the innocent, to women and children, to advance a divisive, hateful ideological agenda. it is not difficult to find people on the left and indeed elsewhere who wonder whether this was a churchill like corpa national unity. professor steven fielding is a professor of politics, and he tweeted, note to editors, no prime minster calling for national unity outside of a war actually wants it, theyjust trying to mobilise the nation against the opposing party and sounding like they are above party which is what rishi sunak is done, so in other words they george galloway, who is in the headlines and ensuring he is even more in the headlines, why would you do that? to create a head —— headache for keir starmer. keir starmer has welcomed the fact that the primers let's call for national unity and calling out what he describes as unacceptable and intimidatory behaviour. i was there yesterday and through the night watching the renaissance of george galloway. chanting: galloway! galloway! the grand entrance. victory celebrations in the dead of night. in a car showroom. an unlikely setting for the third coming of britain's most successful populist on the left. and relishing every second back in the spotlight. george galloway, you have said that you have crushed your former party, and that this is a crisis for keir starmer. but he is calling for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in gaza. he is saying that a rafah offensive by the israelis would lead to a humanitarian catastrophe. what is keir starmer doing wrong? i know you are so sad about the result, because i've been watching you on television this evening. all i can say is, cry more. cry more! i think you'll find that, at 10:30pm, i was predicting your victory. all i can say is, cry more. if you believe that keir starmer is genuinely seeking an end to the slaughter in gaza, i've got a bridge in london that i could sell you. going cheap. thank you very much. but he is calling for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire. do you disagree with keir starmer calling for a two—state solution? a familiarfigure returns to the national stage in typically pugnacious style. george galloway believes that this is a momentous victory that poses a major challenge to keir starmer. there are a lot of labour mps nervous about challenges to them at the general election from independent candidates deeply concerned about what is happening in gaza. they will probably now be a lot more nervous. in the shadow of a rochdale landmark, the seven sisters tower blocks, signs that a campaign largely centred on gaza had resonated. a third of the constituency are muslims. i met him first time when he came here last week, you know. that's when i met him personally. and were you pleased? he was obviously campaigning very strongly on gaza. was that the right thing for you? yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. what they are doing up there is, is horrifying, you know? i'm very happy. ilike. last friday, i meet here. he is good for muslim. and i am happy. he has done a greatjob, you know. in the past, also, he has done a lot of good job, too. - for palestine, you know? so i wish him good luck, you know? in rochdale, the people i will love him like anything. and george galloway also appealed in the town centre. he seems very characteristic. i think he will do what he says he is going to do. and we are going to have a change in rochdale, and that is better than nothing, isn't it? it's not about personality, it's about the politics. we want to stop the war in gaza. yeah _ it's gone too far. a word of advice from one academic — be careful about reading too much into the rochdale results. one thing we should always caution, nick, when thinking about the impact of by—elections on the general election, is, by—elections are a very different kind of contest. they are a kind of free hit for voters. rob ford believes a drop in labour's muslim vote is unlikely to cause trouble at the next general election but it could spell danger further down the line. imagine a scenario where labour does lose lots of muslim votes. they will probably hold on because there is a big swing to them nationally anyway, but that means that they are in a weaker position when the tide comes out again. the tide has come in for them the last couple of years, will it stay in forever? no, of course not. the pendulum will always eventually swing out. at that point these seats, which have been very safe for them for a long time, suddenly become battlegrounds. coursing through the centre of rochdale, a sign of comfort in times of change. a town whose most famous daughter echoed across the world, made its voice heard today. a flash in the pan, or a new chapter? nick watt reporting. to chew over all of this, we have paul waugh, who stepped aside as is chief political commentator injanuary to stand as the labour candidate for rochdale, a contest won by azhar ali. taj ali, co—editor of tribune magazine and katy balls, political editor at the spectator, join me now in the studio. paul, for clarity, for that seat you might be against george galloway in a general election? ii might be against george galloway in a general election?— a general election? if the local --eole a general election? if the local peeple take — a general election? if the local peeple take me _ a general election? if the local people take me up. _ a general election? if the local people take me up. that - a general election? if the local people take me up. that is - a general election? if the localj people take me up. that is the context but — people take me up. that is the context but are _ people take me up. that is the context but are you _ people take me up. that is the| context but are you misreading people take me up. that is the - context but are you misreading the room by blaming rochdale for george galloway? i room by blaming rochdale for george gallowa ? ., �* ~' room by blaming rochdale for george gallowa ? ., �* ~ ., , ., , galloway? i don't think anyone is blamin: galloway? i don't think anyone is blaming the _ galloway? i don't think anyone is blaming the voters. _ galloway? i don't think anyone is blaming the voters. it _ galloway? i don't think anyone is blaming the voters. it is - galloway? i don't think anyone is blaming the voters. it is clear - galloway? i don't think anyone is | blaming the voters. it is clear you have to respect the result of that by—election. winning 12,000 votes is not inconsiderable, the turnout was higher than in wellingborough. there was a strong message. you cannot ignore any section of the vote, whether it is the muslim section of the vote, any section of the community but at the same time, labour gave galloway a free pass. let's not beat about the bush. why? because they had a candidate who had committed some anti—semitic remarks, and as a result keir starmer took tough decision, to step down the wrong candidate, but what that says to me about the whole process is that actually, the reason many people are saying today that labour are sorry for that, i share that but i'm equally really angry about it because the people of rochdale, working class people, have been disenfranchised, they need a labour government and they have been denied that chance. es, government and they have been denied that chance. �* , ., that chance. a unique set of circumstances, _ that chance. a unique set of circumstances, is _ that chance. a unique set of circumstances, is it - that chance. a unique set of l circumstances, is it applicable across this whole swathe of dozens of other seats?— across this whole swathe of dozens of other seats? newton, where i'm from, is a — of other seats? newton, where i'm from, is a post-industrial- of other seats? newton, where i'm from, is a post-industrial town, - of other seats? newton, where i'm from, is a post-industrialtown, itl from, is a post—industrialtown, it is a very— from, is a post—industrialtown, it is a very diverse working class community. and from what i hear from friends _ community. and from what i hear from friends and _ community. and from what i hear from friends and family is a great sense of disillusionment, particularly over— of disillusionment, particularly over keir— of disillusionment, particularly over keir starmer's comments on gaza. — over keir starmer's comments on gaza. he _ over keir starmer's comments on gaza. he was on lbc a few months ago. _ gaza. he was on lbc a few months ago. talking — gaza. he was on lbc a few months ago, talking about how israel was justified _ ago, talking about how israel was justified cutting off electricity and water, and that was going viral, oider— and water, and that was going viral, older group— and water, and that was going viral, older group chats and all the tiktok — older group chats and all the tiktok. anyone can listen to that clip tiktok. anyone can listen to that dip and — tiktok. anyone can listen to that clip and hear it for themselves and the other— clip and hear it for themselves and the other in— clip and hear it for themselves and the other injudgment but clearly it did not— the other injudgment but clearly it did not go— the other injudgment but clearly it did not go down well with other british— did not go down well with other british muslims, and notjust british— british muslims, and notjust british muslims, and notjust british muslims but people of conscience. we know that a significant majority of the british public— significant majority of the british public support an immediate ceasefire in gaza, and our political class have — ceasefire in gaza, and our political class have been behind the curve on this issue _ class have been behind the curve on this issue. labour's approach on gaza _ this issue. labour's approach on gaza has— this issue. labour's approach on gaza has been wishy—washy, and that has not _ gaza has been wishy—washy, and that has not gone down well with voters. it is important to emphasise this is notjust— it is important to emphasise this is notjust about gaza, it is important to emphasise this is not just about gaza, particularly in the muslim community, what i have seen is _ the muslim community, what i have seen is loyal supporters of the labour— seen is loyal supporters of the labour party who will not be voting for the _ labour party who will not be voting for the labour party because they feel that — for the labour party because they feel that they have been taken for granted _ feel that they have been taken for granted. we have spoken a lot about islamophobia in the conservative party~ _ islamophobia in the conservative party~ the — islamophobia in the conservative party. the vast majority of british musiims— party. the vast majority of british muslims who engage in party politics do so _ muslims who engage in party politics do so through the labour party, the labour— do so through the labour party, the labour muslim network report from some _ labour muslim network report from some years — labour muslim network report from some years ago found that one in three _ some years ago found that one in three muslim members of the labour party had _ three muslim members of the labour party had experienced islamophobia so the _ party had experienced islamophobia so the approach that labour has often _ so the approach that labour has often had — so the approach that labour has often had with the muslim community in terms _ often had with the muslim community in terms of— often had with the muslim community in terms of the prism of community leaders _ in terms of the prism of community leaders rather than engagement with the matters comes undone when young people _ the matters comes undone when young people are _ the matters comes undone when young people are politicised over these issues _ people are politicised over these issues. . ., ., ., people are politicised over these issues. . . ., ., ., issues. can we have a failure of democracy _ issues. can we have a failure of democracy from _ issues. can we have a failure of democracy from the _ issues. can we have a failure of democracy from the exercise i issues. can we have a failure of democracy from the exercise of democracy?— democracy from the exercise of democra ? . , , democracy? that is the thing, they are t in: democracy? that is the thing, they are trying not _ democracy? that is the thing, they are trying not to — democracy? that is the thing, they are trying not to say _ democracy? that is the thing, they are trying not to say that _ democracy? that is the thing, they are trying not to say that the i are trying not to say that the people — are trying not to say that the people made _ are trying not to say that the people made a _ are trying not to say that the people made a wrong - are trying not to say that the i people made a wrong decision, are trying not to say that the - people made a wrong decision, but... but perhaps— people made a wrong decision, but... but perhaps they _ people made a wrong decision, but... but perhaps they had _ people made a wrong decision, but... but perhaps they had the _ people made a wrong decision, but... but perhaps they had the wrong i but perhaps they had the wrong options — but perhaps they had the wrong options back— but perhaps they had the wrong options back then, _ but perhaps they had the wrong options back then, why- but perhaps they had the wrong options back then, why were i but perhaps they had the wrong i options back then, why were they? and you _ options back then, why were they? and you hear— options back then, why were they? and you hear some _ options back then, why were they? and you hear some in— options back then, why were they? and you hear some in labour- options back then, why were they? l and you hear some in labour saying it was— and you hear some in labour saying it was not— and you hear some in labour saying it was not such _ and you hear some in labour saying it was not such a _ and you hear some in labour saying it was not such a bad _ and you hear some in labour saying it was not such a bad result - and you hear some in labour saying it was not such a bad result for- and you hear some in labour saying it was not such a bad result for us i it was not such a bad result for us because _ it was not such a bad result for us because we — it was not such a bad result for us because we were _ it was not such a bad result for us because we were not _ it was not such a bad result for us because we were not really - it was not such a bad result for us because we were not really trying j because we were not really trying but the _ because we were not really trying but the reason _ because we were not really trying but the reason we _ because we were not really trying but the reason we were _ because we were not really trying but the reason we were not i because we were not really trying j but the reason we were not trying because we were not really trying i but the reason we were not trying is because _ but the reason we were not trying is because they — but the reason we were not trying is because they pick _ but the reason we were not trying is because they pick the _ but the reason we were not trying is because they pick the candidate i but the reason we were not trying is| because they pick the candidate who was unsuitable, _ because they pick the candidate who was unsuitable, and _ because they pick the candidate who was unsuitable, and theirs— because they pick the candidate who was unsuitable, and theirs goes- because they pick the candidate who| was unsuitable, and theirs goes back to the _ was unsuitable, and theirs goes back to the labour— was unsuitable, and theirs goes back to the labour selection _ was unsuitable, and theirs goes back to the labour selection process, i was unsuitable, and theirs goes back to the labour selection process, so l to the labour selection process, so you cannot — to the labour selection process, so you cannot really— to the labour selection process, so you cannot really blame _ to the labour selection process, so you cannot really blame the - to the labour selection process, so you cannot really blame the voters| you cannot really blame the voters because _ you cannot really blame the voters because at — you cannot really blame the voters because at that _ you cannot really blame the voters because at that point, _ you cannot really blame the voters because at that point, the - you cannot really blame the voters because at that point, the reason. because at that point, the reason the candidate _ because at that point, the reason the candidate was _ because at that point, the reason the candidate was there - because at that point, the reason the candidate was there was i because at that point, the reason the candidate was there was a i because at that point, the reason i the candidate was there was a labour error so _ the candidate was there was a labour error so it— the candidate was there was a labour error so it was — the candidate was there was a labour error so it was a — the candidate was there was a labour error so it was a nightmare _ error so it was a nightmare situation _ error so it was a nightmare situation for _ error so it was a nightmare situation for keir— error so it was a nightmare situation for keir starmer i error so it was a nightmare - situation for keir starmer because you look— situation for keir starmer because you took at— situation for keir starmer because you took at what _ situation for keir starmer because you look at what the _ situation for keir starmer becausel you look at what the frontbenchers have been— you look at what the frontbenchers have been saying, _ you look at what the frontbenchers have been saying, wes— you look at what the frontbenchers have been saying, wes streeting . you look at what the frontbenchers . have been saying, wes streeting and others, _ have been saying, wes streeting and others, strong — have been saying, wes streeting and others, strong suggestion— have been saying, wes streeting and others, strong suggestion not- have been saying, wes streeting and others, strong suggestion not to i others, strong suggestion not to vote for— others, strong suggestion not to vote for george _ others, strong suggestion not to vote for george galloway, - others, strong suggestion not to vote for george galloway, and i others, strong suggestion not to. vote for george galloway, and yet george _ vote for george galloway, and yet george gaiioway— vote for george galloway, and yet george galloway won _ vote for george galloway, and yet george galloway won very- vote for george galloway, and yet i george galloway won very completely. there is _ george galloway won very completely. there is no _ george galloway won very completely. there is no policy— george galloway won very completely. there is no policy change _ george galloway won very completely. there is no policy change they - george galloway won very completely. there is no policy change they are i there is no policy change they are from that rishi sunak intervention. a kind of national emergency after a by—election in rochdale, what is the thinking behind that? perhaps cynicism that this is keeping the galloway thing going because it is bad for labour. number 10 will want to say this was not political but anything that happens outside downing street is inherently political. this was rishi sunak trying to offer leadership with some in the party wondering where that has been in the past couple of weeks, saying the protests have gotten too much. 0ne couple of weeks, saying the protests have gotten too much. one of the problems for the government is when they say, look at these problems, something has to be done. they are the government. there is a limit. as you say, there was not much new policy there but the general message of unity is one that they hope that rishi sunak is in a better place right now than keir starmer to make other potentially puts the labour leader in a tricky position, notably they are trying not to be accused of party politics, hence keir starmer is not mentioned once. i5 party politics, hence keir starmer is not mentioned once.— party politics, hence keir starmer is not mentioned once. is there not a dancer is not mentioned once. is there not a danger that _ is not mentioned once. is there not a danger that actually _ is not mentioned once. is there not a danger that actually there i is not mentioned once. is there not a danger that actually there is i is not mentioned once. is there not a danger that actually there is a i a danger that actually there is a message from voters, notjust muslim voters but younger voters, looking at the scene is coming out of the middle east and thinking maybe the westminster class is not in the right place? in other contexts we say the political classes out of touch and why don't they listen to the voters? in this context is that may be a danger? you the voters? in this context is that may be a danger?— the voters? in this context is that may be a danger? you clearly must listen to voters _ may be a danger? you clearly must listen to voters and _ may be a danger? you clearly must listen to voters and you _ may be a danger? you clearly must listen to voters and you cannot i may be a danger? you clearly must| listen to voters and you cannot take them _ listen to voters and you cannot take them for— listen to voters and you cannot take them for granted and there is no question— them for granted and there is no question that labour has moved its position— question that labour has moved its position and it is in favour of an immediate _ position and it is in favour of an immediate humanitarian ceasefire and that is— immediate humanitarian ceasefire and that is a _ immediate humanitarian ceasefire and that is a big _ immediate humanitarian ceasefire and that is a big change since the start of the _ that is a big change since the start of the year— that is a big change since the start of the year and that is responding to the _ of the year and that is responding to the people within the party and within— to the people within the party and within the — to the people within the party and within the public. there is a big majority— within the public. there is a big majority of— within the public. there is a big majority of the british public, not 'ust majority of the british public, not just muslims but all people, who are horrified _ just muslims but all people, who are horrified by— just muslims but all people, who are horrified by the scenes coming out of gaza _ horrified by the scenes coming out of gaza but— horrified by the scenes coming out of gaza but we must not forget that muslim _ of gaza but we must not forget that muslim working class people are no different _ muslim working class people are no different to any other people in the main _ different to any other people in the main priority or housing, nhs, the rochdale _ main priority or housing, nhs, the rochdale town centre, i have knocked on doors _ rochdale town centre, i have knocked on doors and — rochdale town centre, i have knocked on doors and met lots of muslim and white _ on doors and met lots of muslim and white voters and they had the same concerns _ white voters and they had the same concerns and those concerns can only be concerned — concerns and those concerns can only be concerned by a labour government. the prime _ be concerned by a labour government. the prime minister on this steps of downing street appealing for action against anti—muslim hatred and anti—semitism. any issue with that? that was one aspect of the speech. what _ that was one aspect of the speech. what i _ that was one aspect of the speech. what i fear— that was one aspect of the speech. what i fear for. _ that was one aspect of the speech. what i fear for, i— that was one aspect of the speech. what i fear for, i think— that was one aspect of the speech. what i fear for, i think abuse - that was one aspect of the speech. what i fear for, i think abuse and l what i fear for, i think abuse and intimidation _ what i fear for, i think abuse and intimidation of— what i fear for, i think abuse and intimidation of politicians - what i fear for, i think abuse and intimidation of politicians and i what i fear for, i think abuse and| intimidation of politicians and the jewish— intimidation of politicians and the jewish community— intimidation of politicians and the jewish community and _ intimidation of politicians and the jewish community and muslim i jewish community and muslim community— jewish community and muslim community has— jewish community and muslim community has to _ jewish community and muslim community has to be - jewish community and muslim i community has to be condemned jewish community and muslim - community has to be condemned and you must— community has to be condemned and you must show— community has to be condemned and you must show leadership. _ community has to be condemned and you must show leadership. i- community has to be condemned and you must show leadership. i am i community has to be condemned and you must show leadership. i am also| you must show leadership. i am also concerned _ you must show leadership. i am also concerned that — you must show leadership. i am also concerned that peaceful _ you must show leadership. i am also concerned that peaceful protests i concerned that peaceful protests attended — concerned that peaceful protests attended by— concerned that peaceful protests attended by a _ concerned that peaceful protests attended by a diverse _ concerned that peaceful protests attended by a diverse array i concerned that peaceful protests attended by a diverse array of i attended by a diverse array of society— attended by a diverse array of society which _ attended by a diverse array of society which reflects - attended by a diverse array of society which reflects public. society which reflects public opinion— society which reflects public opinion are _ society which reflects public opinion are being _ society which reflects publicl opinion are being demonised society which reflects public- opinion are being demonised and that is our— opinion are being demonised and that is our fundamental— opinion are being demonised and that is our fundamental democratic - opinion are being demonised and that is our fundamental democratic right . is our fundamental democratic right and it— is our fundamental democratic right and it reflects— is our fundamental democratic right and it reflects the _ is our fundamental democratic right and it reflects the views _ is our fundamental democratic right and it reflects the views of - and it reflects the views of the vast _ and it reflects the views of the vast majority of _ and it reflects the views of the vast majority of the _ and it reflects the views of the i vast majority of the british public when _ vast majority of the british public when it— vast majority of the british public when it comes _ vast majority of the british public when it comes to _ vast majority of the british public when it comes to a _ vast majority of the british public when it comes to a ceasefire i vast majority of the british public when it comes to a ceasefire but| when it comes to a ceasefire but also the — when it comes to a ceasefire but also the view— when it comes to a ceasefire but also the view of _ when it comes to a ceasefire but also the view of the _ when it comes to a ceasefire but also the view of the un - when it comes to a ceasefire buti also the view of the un secretary general, — also the view of the un secretary general, the _ also the view of the un secretary general, the world _ also the view of the un secretary general, the world health- general, the world health organisation, _ general, the world health organisation, 700 - general, the world health organisation, 700 leading general, the world health- organisation, 700 leading ngos... some _ organisation, 700 leading ngos... some people — organisation, 700 leading ngos... some people have _ organisation, 700 leading ngos... some people have been— organisation, 700 leading ngos... some people have been calling i organisation, 700 leading ngos... some people have been calling for| organisation, 700 leading ngos... i some people have been calling for an end to the protest. there is no sense of that from him. flat end to the protest. there is no sense of that from him. not what i heard. he sense of that from him. not what i heard- he is _ sense of that from him. not what i heard. he is talking _ sense of that from him. not what i heard. he is talking about - sense of that from him. not what i heard. he is talking about division| heard. he is talking about division and nasty— heard. he is talking about division and nasty politics _ heard. he is talking about division and nasty politics and _ heard. he is talking about division and nasty politics and what - heard. he is talking about division and nasty politics and what we i heard. he is talking about division i and nasty politics and what we have seen from _ and nasty politics and what we have seen from the — and nasty politics and what we have seen from the conservative - and nasty politics and what we have seen from the conservative party. seen from the conservative party over the — seen from the conservative party over the past— seen from the conservative party over the past few _ seen from the conservative party over the past few weeks - seen from the conservative party over the past few weeks is - seen from the conservative party over the past few weeks is the i over the past few weeks is the demonisation_ over the past few weeks is the demonisation of— over the past few weeks is the demonisation of the _ over the past few weeks is the demonisation of the muslim i demonisation of the muslim community, _ demonisation of the muslim community, this _ demonisation of the muslim community, this idea - demonisation of the muslim community, this idea that l demonisation of the muslim - community, this idea that islamists have taken— community, this idea that islamists have taken over— community, this idea that islamists have taken over the _ community, this idea that islamists have taken over the country - community, this idea that islamists have taken over the country which i community, this idea that islamistsi have taken over the country which is nonsense _ have taken over the country which is nonsense the — have taken over the country which is nonsense. the vast _ have taken over the country which is nonsense. the vast majority- have taken over the country which is nonsense. the vast majority of- nonsense. the vast majority of british — nonsense. the vast majority of british muslims _ nonsense. the vast majority of british muslims are _ british muslims are disproportionatelyl british muslims are - disproportionately working british muslims are _ disproportionately working class and they care _ disproportionately working class and they care about _ disproportionately working class and they care about housing _ disproportionately working class and they care about housing on - disproportionately working class and they care about housing on the i disproportionately working class and they care about housing on the nhs| they care about housing on the nhs and child _ they care about housing on the nhs and child poverty, _ they care about housing on the nhs and child poverty, which _ they care about housing on the nhs and child poverty, which is - they care about housing on the nhs and child poverty, which is 40%- they care about housing on the nhs and child poverty, which is 40% in. and child poverty, which is 40% in places— and child poverty, which is 40% in places like — and child poverty, which is 40% in places like rochdale _ and child poverty, which is 40% in places like rochdale and - and child poverty, which is 40% in places like rochdale and they- and child poverty, which is 40% ml places like rochdale and they want the political— places like rochdale and they want the political class _ places like rochdale and they want the political class not _ places like rochdale and they want the political class notjust- places like rochdale and they want the political class not just to - the political class notjust to address— the political class notjust to address domestic— the political class notjust to address domestic issues i the political class notjust to address domestic issues but the political class not just to i address domestic issues but also foreign _ address domestic issues but also foreign policy— address domestic issues but also foreign policy issues _ address domestic issues but also foreign policy issues which - address domestic issues but also foreign policy issues which our i address domestic issues but also l foreign policy issues which our own government— foreign policy issues which our own government are _ foreign policy issues which our own government are complicit - foreign policy issues which our own government are complicit in. i foreign policy issues which our ownj government are complicit in. there is a theory — government are complicit in. there is a theory that _ government are complicit in. there is a theory that some _ government are complicit in. there is a theory that some in _ government are complicit in. there is a theory that some in downing i is a theory that some in downing street might think that actually this is a moment where labour might face an embryonic version of the problems the tories are facing with the reform party and george galloway and the gaza issue. they might even go for an election based on the spectra. can you see that happening? there are two potential issues, first is how many george galloway figures are there? do you have politicians who will capture the imagination and get attention who can do that? whether or not you like them? what would jeremy corbyn do? will he have a potential peace and justice party? that would be a changing factor. there are figures in the government who think it is not there yet and it is more uncomfortable for keir starmer having george galloway in the commons chamberfor a having george galloway in the commons chamber for a couple having george galloway in the commons chamberfor a couple of months and we saw the lengths he went to to avoid a difficult vote on a ceasefire last week and he now has george galloway every day sitting in the commons and he will try to exploit this division so he will at least want to give it a chance to go before they go to the polls.- before they go to the polls. thank ou ve before they go to the polls. thank you very much _ before they go to the polls. thank you very much for _ before they go to the polls. thank you very much forjoining - before they go to the polls. thank you very much forjoining us i before they go to the polls. thank you very much forjoining us in i you very much forjoining us in the studio. moving on... ai is the future of the economy and our lives, but also has existential risks. that is one of the reasons why a charity, 0penai, was created eight years ago to ensure its development benefited humanity. the organisation and its commercial arm — the creator of chatgpt — is today however accused of essentially monetising that goodwill by the tesla and x owner elon musk for the benefit of tech giant microsoft. it is a court case that pitches the world richest man against the world's biggest company for the future of technology and perhaps humanity. big stakes. i'm joined by professor dame wendy hall, the uk's ai skills champion and a member of the un's advisory board on al. thank you forjoining us. what do you make of the idea that 0penai, that was meant to be this great, charitable and nonprofit for the benefit of humanity basically being monetised for the benefit of one company? monetised for the benefit of one com an ? ., monetised for the benefit of one coman ? ., ~ , ., company? elon musk is right, and would ou company? elon musk is right, and would you not _ company? elon musk is right, and would you not be _ company? elon musk is right, and would you not be annoyed - company? elon musk is right, and would you not be annoyed if- company? elon musk is right, and would you not be annoyed if you l company? elon musk is right, and i would you not be annoyed if you had invested lots of money into something that was running as a not—for—profit and when you left they turned into a commercial entity and your money is used to create value for the company and you are not benefiting? he also has his own company that he wants to promote in this field, it is fascinating, absolutely fascinating and it gives us a breathing space, i think. it will slow everyone down a little bit! i will slow everyone down a little bit! , , ., will slow everyone down a little bit! ., ,, bit! i guess a backdrop to this is that many _ bit! i guess a backdrop to this is that many of — bit! i guess a backdrop to this is that many of these _ bit! i guess a backdrop to this is that many of these big - bit! i guess a backdrop to this is that many of these big tech i that many of these big tech companies were developing this technology and everybody was sort of in check and then openai and chatgpt went for it, to the shock of others in the community who thought this is not cooked properly, is it safe? if not cooked properly, is it safe? it was very clever marketing on behalf of sam to bring out chatgpt because the world does not stop talking about it. he got the government, the uk and the us, to pivot around thinking about the existential threats. they are not existential threats. they are not existential threats at the moment, they might be down the line. that is a philosophical question, whether we would let them do that. but this sort of rush to worry about the existential threat when actually we have lots of other things to worry about with al, like deepfake and using face recognition and good old—fashioned ai that we have not learned how to regulate and we are worrying about this rather philosophical, may existential, threat. and google has a play and all of this, i think google has probably the better technology, although they did shoot themselves in the foot this week with the launch of, what is it called? gemini. it is too late at night! and the rather odd pictures that came up when you searched for 15th century night's or whatever. the technology was first developed in academia, research labs, and google was ahead of the game. openai took the marketing out there. google has to catch up. but google has the huge benefit that it has all of our data. it can train the model is much more easily. it can train the model is much more easil . ., ., ., , ., easily. the right analogy for the avera . e easily. the right analogy for the average viewer _ easily. the right analogy for the average viewer here _ easily. the right analogy for the average viewer here who - easily. the right analogy for the average viewer here who is - easily. the right analogy for the average viewer here who is not| easily. the right analogy for the | average viewer here who is not a tech nerd is this is the technological and economic arms race of our time. whoever wins this really does matter?— of our time. whoever wins this really does matter? yes... in the sense that... _ really does matter? yes... in the sense that... but _ really does matter? yes... in the sense that... but we _ really does matter? yes... in the sense that... but we do - really does matter? yes... in the sense that... but we do not - really does matter? yes... in the sense that... but we do not wantl really does matter? yes... in the i sense that... but we do not want is, what we did not see when we were developing the internet was we would end up with these big monopolies that dominated our lives. and they are continuing to do so because they have the data and the money to develop these technologies. but what would be great, and this is what the un advisory board is trying to do, is trying to make sure this technology is governed in a global sense and regulated nationally to make sure it is good for the world. notjust make sure it is good for the world. not just western democracies, make sure it is good for the world. notjust western democracies, for the whole world. you not just western democracies, for the whole world.— the whole world. you seem to say that it was — the whole world. you seem to say that it was in _ the whole world. you seem to say that it was in the _ the whole world. you seem to say that it was in the interests - the whole world. you seem to say that it was in the interests of - the whole world. you seem to say | that it was in the interests of some companies to play up the existential risks, but actually, yourjob on skills points towards a more everyday but real risk for people and theirjobs who have been surprised by the competition, that even chatgpt has four people in the copywriting industry and the first stages of creating images in the advertising industry. it is starting to affect jobs advertising industry. it is starting to affectjobs in markets nobody expected it would hit? the to affect jobs in markets nobody expected it would hit? the answer is that there would _ expected it would hit? the answer is that there would be _ expected it would hit? the answer is that there would be more _ expected it would hit? the answer is that there would be more jobs - that there would be more jobs created out of this than readers. but it is about giving people the right skills and the awareness. i think the creative industries are beginning to really use this technology to do new types of... to create new things. you are beginning to see fantastic development is. it will also make our lives easier. this technology is profoundly useful. if we harness it well. i am a great believer that we will get more jobs out of this rather than less. but it is what google was about in 2017, we can use this for economic growth, without a doubt. the interesting, as long as i do not replace professors or presenters! or journalists! thank you very much. the brit awards will be taking place tomorrow night at london's o2. with snubs for ed sheeran, lewis capaldi and pj harvey, this year's nominations have seen a much stronger representation of women across the now gender—neutral categories. joining us in a minute, the electronic band jungle, nominated for best group, who will also be performing in the ceremony alongside kylie minogue, dua lipa and chase and status. # you keep me walking on the same line. # when we get high on my break time. # and we're just watching from the same town. # but that don't change when it break down. # then we were talking 'bout the same crime. # no, it don't hurt when it rains now. # learnt my lesson at the same time. # ooh—ooh—ooh—ohh where did it... # ..go? # back on 7a (when i noticed you). # call this place my home. # never gonna cry any more...# joining me on the eve before their brits performance, tom, josh and lydia from the band jungle. thank you for coming here on a friday night. you could do better things on a friday night! you had a rapid ascent and the mercury nomination a decade ago but now big recognition with the best group nomination at the brits, against blur. what is this dietary? just art that we love _ blur. what is this dietary? just art that we love making. _ blur. what is this dietary? just art that we love making. arch - blur. what is this dietary? just art that we love making. arch with . that we love making. arch with dancers and choreographers who inspire us through this journey. amazing musicians and producers and lydia is fantastic. across our album, volcano. we love what we do and when you're in a place where you can freely create, great things can happen. it can freely create, great things can ha en. ., , can freely create, great things can ha en. ., ., , can freely create, great things can hauen. . , ., happen. it has really caught on, some of the _ happen. it has really caught on, some of the latest _ happen. it has really caught on, some of the latest tracks, - happen. it has really caught on, some of the latest tracks, with l happen. it has really caught on, - some of the latest tracks, with some of, some of the youngsters, on tiktok, and the video we just had there, there was a very specific dance routine. was that by design? was it an accident or was that a serendipitous? we was it an accident or was that a serendipitous?— was it an accident or was that a serendiitous? ~ ., , ., serendipitous? we have been doing dance videos _ serendipitous? we have been doing dance videos for _ serendipitous? we have been doing dance videos for the _ serendipitous? we have been doing dance videos for the duration - serendipitous? we have been doing dance videos for the duration of - serendipitous? we have been doing dance videos for the duration of her career and it isjust dance videos for the duration of her career and it is just a dance videos for the duration of her career and it isjust a great dance videos for the duration of her career and it is just a great way to connect music to people and we have some amazing choreographers, who did the whole album this time and we grew up watching music videos like that. it grew up watching music videos like that. , ., , grew up watching music videos like that. , . , , , , that. it is really inspiring. it is inspiring. _ that. it is really inspiring. it is inspiring. i— that. it is really inspiring. it is inspiring. i do _ that. it is really inspiring. it is inspiring, i do not _ that. it is really inspiring. it is inspiring, i do not know- that. it is really inspiring. it is inspiring, i do not know how l that. it is really inspiring. it is- inspiring, i do not know how many millions of tiktokers... sorry, i really do sound like an old man! you don't know the dance?! there was an attempt to recreate that movement but let's not go there! actually, any industry there is a stand—off with tiktok. your record company and those concerned about big technology, streamers taking a massive part of the pie. do you buy into that? do you feel you can make the living and your colleagues can make a living they need to? i the living and your colleagues can make a living they need to? i think we are to a — make a living they need to? i think we are to a certain _ make a living they need to? i think we are to a certain extent - make a living they need to? i think we are to a certain extent but - make a living they need to? i think we are to a certain extent but i - we are to a certain extent but i still do — we are to a certain extent but i still do not _ we are to a certain extent but i still do not understand - we are to a certain extent but i still do not understand how- we are to a certain extent but i| still do not understand how you we are to a certain extent but i - still do not understand how you get money— still do not understand how you get money from — still do not understand how you get money from streaming _ still do not understand how you get money from streaming services - still do not understand how you get| money from streaming services like tiktok _ money from streaming services like tiktok~ you — money from streaming services like tiktok. you don't— money from streaming services like tiktok. you don't even— money from streaming services like tiktok. you don't even get - money from streaming services like tiktok. you don't even get paid - money from streaming services like tiktok. you don't even get paid for| tiktok. you don't even get paid for tiktok~ _ tiktok. you don't even get paid for tiktok~ and — tiktok. you don't even get paid for tiktok. and universal— tiktok. you don't even get paid for tiktok. and universal have - tiktok. you don't even get paid for tiktok. and universal have taken . tiktok. you don't even get paid for| tiktok. and universal have taken all of the _ tiktok. and universal have taken all of the music— tiktok. and universal have taken all of the music off. _ tiktok. and universal have taken all of the music off. the _ tiktok. and universal have taken all of the music off. the song - tiktok. and universal have taken all of the music off. the song are - tiktok. and universal have taken all of the music off. the song are still. of the music off. the song are still on there. — of the music off. the song are still on there. but _ of the music off. the song are still on there, but...— on there, but... these are great areas and _ on there, but... these are great areas and the _ on there, but... these are great areas and the lack _ on there, but... these are great areas and the lack of _ on there, but... these are great areas and the lack of legislation | on there, but... these are great l areas and the lack of legislation at the moment and that will still take years to work out and sort out, to the detriment of smaller artists. and how is the music industry feeling now? it was a tough time with the pandemic, is it back up and running fully? the issue around small venues as well as yellow i think it is easy for us to sit here and pat ourselves on the back about the brits, we are lucky with a career leading up to this. but there is a younger generation of artists and small venues are closing. hundred and 25 small venues closed in 2023 at a rate of nearly two every week and 83% of council areas have had arts council cuts since 2010. if the government are not going to do anything then it is the gatekeepers of the music industry, the record labels and streaming companies, they need to look at the future of music and support it fully. future of music and support it full . �* , , . , ., future of music and support it full. , ,. ., fully. british music... is a danger that the next _ fully. british music... is a danger that the next jungle _ fully. british music... is a danger that the next jungle does - fully. british music... is a danger that the next jungle does not - fully. british music... is a danger. that the next jungle does not come that the nextjungle does not come about because of that? l that the next jungle does not come about because of that?— about because of that? i saw a crowdfunding _ about because of that? i saw a crowdfunding page _ about because of that? i saw a crowdfunding page today - about because of that? i saw a crowdfunding page today for l about because of that? i saw a crowdfunding page today for a | about because of that? i saw a - crowdfunding page today for a venue in shepherd's bush, we played our first gig there when we were 1a. and if venues like that cease to exist will not have, 14—year—olds will not have the platform to start their careers. �* have the platform to start their careers. ~ ., , ., , ., careers. 0k. and do you see a problem _ careers. 0k. and do you see a problem with _ careers. 0k. and do you see a problem with music _ careers. 0k. and do you see a| problem with music education? children in primary schools now? there needs to be more music education _ there needs to be more music education and arts funding. when we were at— education and arts funding. when we were at school it was a thing we love _ were at school it was a thing we love to — were at school it was a thing we love to do. _ were at school it was a thing we love to do, it is why we went to school. — love to do, it is why we went to school. it — love to do, it is why we went to school, it was inspiring. and the more _ school, it was inspiring. and the more they— school, it was inspiring. and the more they take that away, the less people _ more they take that away, the less people want to engage with fun things— people want to engage with fun things and inspiring things to do. you may—