for a subpostmasters and sub—postmistresses the horizon it scandal. it is the first time he has publicly spoken since his row with kemi badenoch over his claims he was advised to delay compensation payments to subpostmasters who were wrongly prosecuted. he read out a statement during the hearing in which he labelled the scandal of tragedy and said the postmasters and mistresses had been failed time and time again by the institution is meant to protect them. he says he believes more could be done to make the compensation scheme more generous and less bureaucratic, adding that he feels he has spoken out on matters of public concern and has since been the subject of a smear campaign. earlier, current chief executive of the post office, nick read, and other bosses also gave evidence. at the very start nick read was asked if he felt they were dragging their feet and paying compensation. he said no. earlier three subpostmasters, all answered about the compensation schemes. mr bates, who was the subject of the itv drama mr pate versus the post office at hun sen said the delays to composition was very disappointing and he couldn't see an end to it. —— said the delays to the compensation was very disappointing and he couldn't see an end to it. they've been failed _ couldn't see an end to it. they've been failed time _ couldn't see an end to it. they've been failed time and _ couldn't see an end to it. they've been failed time and time - couldn't see an end to it. they've been failed time and time again i couldn't see an end to it. they've. been failed time and time again by couldn't see an end to it. they've i been failed time and time again by a host of british institutions who were supposed to protect the citizen and ensure fair play. we all know that... will know that there was inaction all round by the judicial system, the government, whitehall and particularly inside the post office until the itv drama mr bates versus the post office. and there was a rocket then put under things. the secretary of state, senior civil service and post office officials are asking us to believe that everything was going swimmingly all along, when it's damn well wasn't. that was a former post office chairman henry staunton, talking a short time ago. lets get reaction to all that's been happening in that hearing there, speak to former sub—postmistress who was sentenced to 15 months in prison for a £75,000 shortfall when she was pregnant. she had to give birth with a tag on. thank you for being with us. tell us a bit more about what happens to you. i a bit more about what happens to ou. ., , .,, , . a bit more about what happens to ou. , . :::: you. i opened post office in 2005, i was having — you. i opened post office in 2005, i was having issues, _ you. i opened post office in 2005, i was having issues, i— you. i opened post office in 2005, i was having issues, i was _ you. i opened post office in 2005, i was having issues, i was told - you. i opened post office in 2005, i was having issues, i was told i - you. i opened post office in 2005, i was having issues, i was told i wasl was having issues, i was told i was the only one, they have so many post offices that are doing fine, it was just me having an issue. despite me putting money in the post office and having a reduction from my salary, in 2000, i was suspended for a 75,000 shortfall. i pled not guilty for theft charges. the jury came back with the word guilty and then in november 2010, eight weeks pregnant, i was sent to imprisonment.- pregnant, iwas sent to imrisonment. ~ ., ., ~ pregnant, iwas sent to imrisonment. ~ ., ., ,, ., , imprisonment. we are talking nearly 20 ears imprisonment. we are talking nearly 20 years ago. _ imprisonment. we are talking nearly 20 years ago. tell — imprisonment. we are talking nearly 20 years ago, tell us _ imprisonment. we are talking nearly 20 years ago, tell us what _ imprisonment. we are talking nearly 20 years ago, tell us what has - 20 years ago, tell us what has happened to you in your fight for justice since? it’s happened to you in your fight for justice since?— justice since? it's an ongoing torture. every _ justice since? it's an ongoing torture. every time - justice since? it's an ongoing torture. every time i - justice since? it's an ongoing torture. every time i think i torture. every time i think it's going to be the end of it, still something new comes up. in 2019, we went to court and disclosed everything and it was proven that we are innocent, but still, four years down the line, we still have to be still fighting. down the line, we still have to be still fighting-— still fighting. have you received any compensation? _ still fighting. have you received any compensation? i _ still fighting. have you received any compensation? i receive i still fighting. have you received i any compensation? i receive some interim payments _ any compensation? i receive some interim payments but _ any compensation? i receive some interim payments but still- any compensation? i receive some interim payments but still not i interim payments but still not compensation. 50 interim payments but still not compensation.— interim payments but still not compensation. interim payments but still not comensation. ., , compensation. so have you been paid back any substantial _ compensation. so have you been paid back any substantial amount - compensation. so have you been paid back any substantial amount of i back any substantial amount of money, the cost that you incurred and the money you ended up paying back that you didn't actually owe in the first place? h0. back that you didn't actually owe in the first place?— the first place? no, i received some interim payments _ the first place? no, i received some interim payments only _ the first place? no, i received some interim payments only but - the first place? no, i received some interim payments only but full i the first place? no, i received some interim payments only but full and l interim payments only but full and final composition is still outstanding full wd coated ongoing torture, what you make what you have heard today white like —— coded ongoing torture, what you make of what you have heard today in westminster? every time something new comes up, it's not shocking but its timing. it is timing. why can't theyjust put an end state? we are getting... day by day, you get immensely tired. irate we are getting. .. day by day, you get immensely tired.— we are getting... day by day, you get immensely tired. we have heard that a . ain get immensely tired. we have heard that again and _ get immensely tired. we have heard that again and again. _ get immensely tired. we have heard that again and again. what - get immensely tired. we have heard that again and again. what do i get immensely tired. we have heard that again and again. what do you i that again and again. what do you think of the fact that it is taken this drama, just over the last couple of months, to really put a rocket booster other people's interest in what has been going on for 25 years? it seems finally that the government is, i don't know if you would agree, taking action? yes. you would agree, taking action? yes, finally taking — you would agree, taking action? yes, finally taking action, _ you would agree, taking action? is: finally taking action, doing something about it is completely different, we do need to put a timescale, and if it hasn't been fulfilled there need to be punishments, notjust like another punishments, not just like another word punishments, notjust like another word about it and all that, they need to be punished if they haven't fulfilled the timescales and put the actual culprit behind the bars. where do you believe responsibility lies in all of this? it seems we keep hearing from people in the post office now, who were in the post office now, who were in the post office in recent years, but it doesn't seem anyone is actually being held accountable. that doesn't seem anyone is actually being held accountable.- doesn't seem anyone is actually being held accountable. that is the issue. it's good _ being held accountable. that is the issue. it's good that _ being held accountable. that is the issue. it's good that more - being held accountable. that is the issue. it's good that more people | issue. it's good that more people are coming forward, people, we need to have a whole list of people which can be cautioned now, not in 2026 or 2030, now they need to be cautioned and put behind bars to set an example. so at least we can feel that something is going ahead. man that something is going ahead. alan bates, who was _ that something is going ahead. alan bates, who was one of the lead campaigners and all of this, has told mps earlier today that the government should get on he believes they are kind of on a bit of a go slow, deep leave with that critical of course, we took them to court, and . of course, we took them to court, and , , .,. and still in the same place. definitely. _ and still in the same place. definitely, more needs- and still in the same place. definitely, more needs to i and still in the same place. i definitely, more needs to be and still in the same place. - definitely, more needs to be done. so you believe there should be punishments for people who perhaps don't meet a suitable time now. is that what's needed to really make sure that people like you get what you deserve? {lit sure that people like you get what you deserve?— sure that people like you get what you deserve? of course, definitely full so i you deserve? of course, definitely full so i was _ you deserve? of course, definitely full so i was sent _ you deserve? of course, definitely full so i was sent to _ you deserve? of course, definitely full so i was sent to prison - you deserve? of course, definitely full so i was sent to prison for- you deserve? of course, definitely full so i was sent to prison for a i full so i was sent to prison for a crime i never committed, and here people, it's been proven they are behind the scandal, they are still roaming around freely, why? we need to show the system works, that nobody is above the law. we need full and final composition for all victims but we need accountability as well at the same time, we need a system that nobody should take the law for granted. irate system that nobody should take the law for granted.— system that nobody should take the law for granted. we have seen these cuestions law for granted. we have seen these questions happening _ law for granted. we have seen these questions happening today _ law for granted. we have seen these questions happening today in - questions happening today in westminster, various post office staff, former and present. when you see the likes of nick staunton there, he was satjust a few weeks ago as the boss of the post office, and this ongoing row about who said what to who, what do you think? definitely, we need to look into it. we don't want to get... to find what is the reality, we need to look into it. there's no smoke without fire, and somebody saying that something could have happened, we definitely need to look into. there's a whole scandal behind it. i know it's more and more work for the committee and the inquiry and everyone else, but white was set in first place, they promised it would be all sorted and they are having all this conspiracy and all of that... it definitely needs to be looked into. and all of that. .. it definitely needs to be looked into. yes, henry staunton certainly _ needs to be looked into. yes, henry staunton certainly appears - needs to be looked into. yes, henry staunton certainly appears to i needs to be looked into. yes, henry staunton certainly appears to be i needs to be looked into. yes, henry staunton certainly appears to be on | staunton certainly appears to be on your site, doesn't he? yes. staunton certainly appears to be on your site, doesn't he?— your site, doesn't he? yes. and we can believe. _ your site, doesn't he? yes. and we can believe. you — your site, doesn't he? yes. and we can believe, you know, _ your site, doesn't he? yes. and we can believe, you know, like... i your site, doesn't he? yes. and we can believe, you know, like... the| can believe, you know, like... the things he is saying, we as postmasters, we've been through it. so... , . . . postmasters, we've been through it. so... , , , ., , postmasters, we've been through it. so... ,, ,., , so... just sum up for us, if you can, so... just sum up for us, if you can. how _ so... just sum up for us, if you can. how you're _ so... just sum up for us, if you can, how you're feeling - so... just sum up for us, if you can, how you're feeling right i can, how you're feeling right now and what impact this has had on your life? i mean, you gave birth nearly 20 years ago attack on, were convicted of a crime you not commit. —— you gave birth with a tag on. i —— you gave birth with a tag on. i gave birth 12 years ago with a tag on, and it's notjust the postmaster who suffers, the whole family suffers. and i want each and every person responsible for the scandal, they need to be put behind bars and have proper compensation for each and every victim. it's been dragging on for such a long time. as i mentioned in 2019, when it came in black and white, that arise and robbed us, we thought within a year or two it would be uncertain, then it took years to get my name cleared, that only happened in 2021. and so we don't know how long it will drag on for. we don't want to lose more and more people. itjust needs to be settled down. lose more and more people. it 'ust needs to be settled down.i lose more and more people. it 'ust needs to be settled down. thank you ve much needs to be settled down. thank you very much for— needs to be settled down. thank you very much forjoining _ needs to be settled down. thank you very much forjoining us _ needs to be settled down. thank you very much forjoining us with - needs to be settled down. thank you very much forjoining us with your i very much forjoining us with your thoughts today.— very much forjoining us with your| thoughts today._ earlier thoughts today. thank you. earlier the post office's _ thoughts today. thank you. earlier the post office's chief _ thoughts today. thank you. earlier the post office's chief executive i the post office's chief executive officer nick read defended his position. officer nick read defended his osition. ., , , . position. you been in post since september _ position. you been in post since september 2019, _ position. you been in post since september 2019, you _ position. you been in post since september 2019, you told i position. you been in post since september 2019, you told the l september 2019, you told the committee today that only £1 in five of the _ committee today that only £1 in five of the budget has been paid out in redress. _ of the budget has been paid out in redress, you yourself said that isn't _ redress, you yourself said that isn't good _ redress, you yourself said that isn't good enough, is much too slow, you have _ isn't good enough, is much too slow, you have said — isn't good enough, is much too slow, you have said that the toxic culture at the _ you have said that the toxic culture at the post — you have said that the toxic culture at the post office is not sorted yet. _ at the post office is not sorted yet. is — at the post office is not sorted yet, is still a work in progress, it's not— yet, is still a work in progress, it's notjob _ yet, is still a work in progress, it's notjob done mother have been problems— it's notjob done mother have been problems of the evidence about pr advisers _ problems of the evidence about pr advisers but also the use of confidentially agreements. tell the committee today why we should have confidence _ committee today why we should have confidence in you continuing in your post _ confidence in you continuing in your ost, �* , confidence in you continuing in your ost. �* , ., post. because we are delivering treat post. because we are delivering great things _ post. because we are delivering great things for _ post. because we are delivering great things for the _ post. because we are delivering great things for the post - post. because we are delivering great things for the post office | post. because we are delivering i great things for the post office in terms of the way we are performing. our trading is excellent, the post office itself is making profit. postmasters have improved in terms of the relationship they have with the centre and their trust in our organisation. that's something we can measure and we have measured. we are making progress, and we are listening to postmasters so we can get the schemes that we have discussed today for the last couple of hours, we can get them right, and we're very happy to do that and flexible to do that. we will continue to work hard to ensure that justice is served for the postmasters.— justice is served for the ostmasters. ., , ., , justice is served for the ostmasters. ., , ., postmasters. have you ever try to resi . n postmasters. have you ever try to resin as postmasters. have you ever try to resign as chief — postmasters. have you ever try to resign as chief executive - postmasters. have you ever try to resign as chief executive of i postmasters. have you ever try to resign as chief executive of the i resign as chief executive of the post _ resign as chief executive of the post office?— resign as chief executive of the post office? ., , ., i. _ post office? know why do you say that? well, _ post office? know why do you say that? well, because _ post office? know why do you say that? well, because we've - post office? know why do you say that? well, because we've got i post office? know why do you say that? well, because we've got a l that? well, because we've got a redress scheme _ that? well, because we've got a redress scheme that _ that? well, because we've got a redress scheme that is - that? well, because we've got a redress scheme that is in i that? well, because we've got a redress scheme that is in the i that? well, because we've got a i redress scheme that is in the wrong place. _ redress scheme that is in the wrong place, culture and the wrong place, problems— place, culture and the wrong place, problems of the information given to this committee pulled up i would like to— this committee pulled up i would like to know whether you are planning _ like to know whether you are planning to stay in post to deliver this redress schemes that you have 'ust this redress schemes that you have just heard — this redress schemes that you have just heard are not performing the way they— just heard are not performing the way they should. i just heard are not performing the way they should.— just heard are not performing the way they should. i want to make sure we aet way they should. i want to make sure we get justice — way they should. i want to make sure we getjustice for— way they should. i want to make sure we get justice for ap _ way they should. i want to make sure we getjustice for ap as _ way they should. i want to make sure we getjustice for ap as much - way they should. i want to make sure we getjustice for ap as much as, i we getjustice for ap as much as, that's what i will stay to do. let’s that's what i will stay to do. let's seak that's what i will stay to do. let's s - eak to that's what i will stay to do. let's speak to a _ that's what i will stay to do. let's speak to a partner _ that's what i will stay to do. let's speak to a partner at _ that's what i will stay to do. let's speak to a partner at solicitors who have represented almost 300 subpostmasters, good to have you on the programme for that we heard from nick read there, insisting they are making progress, are they? let’s nick read there, insisting they are making progress, are they? let's be clear what happened _ making progress, are they? let's be clear what happened today, - making progress, are they? let's be clear what happened today, we i making progress, are they? let's be clear what happened today, we had| clear what happened today, we had bombshell revelations, bombshell revelations. we go back a week or so, when kemi badenoch came to the house of parliament and said, accused mr henry staunton, chairman of the post office, who was fired by her, of lying. about his statements on the sunday times. that he had been given to understand by the most senior official at the department for business and trade to go slow with compensation, and the replacement of the horizon system. he also mentioned the ceo of the post office, nick read, had written to the justice secretary arguing that up to half of those apparently wrongfully convicted postmasters should not have their convictions quashed. but we have since learned that he was right about that, nick read did write to thejustice secretary, that was confirmed today. the secretary of state also said the parliament that there was an investigation, bullying investigation, bullying investigation into henry staunton. we have now learnt today that there is an 80 page report detailing allegations against nick read, the ceo of the post office, not henry staunton, that contains one paragraph of four lines about henry staunton and he flatly rejects that. we heard that the board was in disarray, we heard that nick read had indicated to henry staunton on four occasions he wanted to resign because of the stress of the job, the impact it was having on his family. so it'sjust extraordinary. and as the subpostmaster you were talking to cells, every day there seems to be another revelation, another shocking revelation. —— as she says. the select committee heard today, you will have seen them, they were utterly shocked to hear about this 80 page report, and i think there are very serious questions now at the upper echelons of the department for business and trade and kemi badenoch rising out of the evidence today._ and kemi badenoch rising out of the evidence today. what would you like to see happen _ evidence today. what would you like to see happen next? _ evidence today. what would you like to see happen next? what _ evidence today. what would you like to see happen next? what i - evidence today. what would you like to see happen next? what i would i to see happen next? what i would like to see — to see happen next? what i would like to see is _ to see happen next? what i would like to see is exactly _ to see happen next? what i would like to see is exactly what - to see happen next? what i would. like to see is exactly what everyone else would like to see, is that we make progress on delivering justice to postmasters and providing them with compensation they deserve. but let's be clear about this, when the post office came knocking, demanding these phantom sums from a broken computer system, they didn't ask, can we have the money in two or three years? they wanted the money then and if they didn't get it they were going to put people in prison, and that's exactly what they did. so postmasters are asking to be treated in the same way. when you came looking for money from me, you took it and you took it now, i want my compensation that i am entitled to know. what might 2300 postmasters, how far have you got over the years? -- you have represented 300 postmasters- _ -- you have represented 300 postmasters. we _ -- you have represented 300 postmasters. we had - -- you have represented 300 postmasters. we had them i -- you have represented 300 i postmasters. we had them working -- you have represented 300 - postmasters. we had them working on this since to 2012, _ postmasters. we had them working on this since to 2012, if— postmasters. we had them working on this since to 2012, if you _ postmasters. we had them working on this since to 2012, if you can _ this since to 2012, if you can believe it. it's been a privilege working with these people, represented postmasters and press mistresses in northern ireland, wales, scotland and across england. they are extraordinary people. everyone of us knows a victim or someone impacted by this scandal, just up the road at the post office, delivering vital services to us, and it is those people who are the victims of all of this. taste it is those people who are the victims of all of this.- it is those people who are the victims of all of this. we have the post office _ victims of all of this. we have the post office inquiry _ victims of all of this. we have the post office inquiry obviously i victims of all of this. we have the post office inquiry obviously still| post office inquiry obviously still very much ongoing and there seems to be a renewed interest since the itv drama played out over christmas, it's galvanised and focus minds, hasn't it? certainly the public, i would see a lot of people weren't really aware of the huge press, the scale of this, how many people it had impacted. do you feel that change is coming, that there is no an impetus? it change is coming, that there is no an impetus?— change is coming, that there is no an impetus? it was henry staunton who said the — an impetus? it was henry staunton who said the government - an impetus? it was henry staunton who said the government were i an impetus? it was henry staunton who said the government were in a very difficult place at the start of the year after the itv drama, and he said after the drama came out, these are his words, he said the secretary of state, senior civil servants and post office were asking us to believe everything was going swimmingly and it damn well wasn't. and this is the thing that we are aware of it in a detailed way, like myself, i work on it every day, when are they going to get a grip on this? when are they going to sit down and sort this out? we cannot be having revelation after revelation. what we heard today was astonishing, and there will be major ramifications from this, given the statement that the secretary of state gave at the dispatch box last week in light of the evidence we are now hearing. there is going to be major ramifications from this, and isn't it a pity that we are notjust getting on with the job of delivering justice and compensation to these deserving people, rather than this continuing political melodrama?— than this continuing political melodrama? ., ., . , . melodrama? part of the justice i cuess melodrama? part of the justice i guess many _ melodrama? part of the justice i guess many of — melodrama? part of the justice i guess many of your _ melodrama? part of the justice i guess many of your clients i melodrama? part of the justice i | guess many of your clients might feel and others who have been impacted may feel that they want criminal proceedings to ensue for those who perhaps knew and wrongfully went ahead with these convictions, with these investigations and convictions. do you feel that the inquiry is getting to the bottom of who approved all of these investigations, who allowed it to happen? that these investigations, who allowed it to ha en? ., .,, these investigations, who allowed it to hauen? ., , ., , to happen? that has been a very steady capital — to happen? that has been a very steady capital of _ to happen? that has been a very steady capital of the _ to happen? that has been a very steady capital of the ship - to happen? that has been a very steady capital of the ship of i to happen? that has been a very steady capital of the ship of that| steady capital of the ship of that inquiry, he has guided it through some seriously choppy waters, when very significant amount of disclosed evidence was denied to him, he got it, he's got the right witnesses and has driven this inquiry forward very well with the support of his team. but sir wyn williams, chair of the public inquiry, cannot make criminal or civil findings, public inquiry, cannot make criminal or civilfindings, he makes or civil findings, he makes recommendations, or civilfindings, he makes recommendations, it is for the police and persecution service to bear down on those who did wrong. there's been a metropolitan police investigation ongoing since the of 2019, if you can believe it, into allegations of perjury by fujitsu engineers who support a post office investigations. we are now in 202a. where are we with those investigations? what progress has metropolitan police made? the post office chief exec, _ metropolitan police made? the post office chief exec, the _ metropolitan police made? the post office chief exec, the current - metropolitan police made? the post office chief exec, the current one, i office chief exec, the current one, nick read, denied accusations or suggestions that they are dragging their feet when it comes to compensation. he also said they have been working hard to challenge perceptions of the post office, they said they are trying to improve the culture and they've got people going to post office branches to improve the view of what the post office people think of the post office. given the huge impact that this scandal has had, do you feel that the post office is now tainted, really, as a company, as an organisation? it really, as a company, as an organisation?— really, as a company, as an organisation? really, as a company, as an oruanisation? ., ., ., organisation? if we go down that route we are _ organisation? if we go down that route we are tainting _ organisation? if we go down that route we are tainting about i organisation? if we go down that| route we are tainting about 9000 hard—working people who run the post office is, and i am not going to do that. we need a post office, postal service in this country. so we need to fix the problems. we don't need to fix the problems. we don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water. do we really want to bankrupt and try to work 8000 hard—working individuals, sub—postmistress? we don't. nick read has a very difficultjob, and i am no advocate for him but if herfrom difficultjob, and i am no advocate for him but if her from the evidence given today, particularly by henry staunton, that he is a very challenging job of work before him —— you have heard from the evidence given today. the chair asked was he considering resigning, he said no. what purpose would it serve if the chairman, the chief executive officer of the post office resigned now, other than to put things back perhaps another six months, another 12 months, whilst another chief executive was found and worked his way into these problems? so i see no utility and that whatsoever. what we need is we need the government to get behind the post office in delivering all of this. stop trying to pass the buck and pass the blame. budget will often see the government somehow trying to distance itself from the post office as if it is a separate entity. the government the so shareholder of the post office. they appoint the ceo and the directors. —— the government is the sole shareholders. the department of is the governing officer. the post office is the government was up so the government are the ones who need to take responsibility and leadership in all of this, don't try to pass it off as if somehow it is a separate, unconnected organisation. david, a partner who have represented almost 300 sub—postmistress, great to get your thoughts, thank you for being with us. hearing also heard from three former subpostmasters including alan bates, justice for subpostmasters alliance. he pushed the government to speed up compensation, saying not enough progress had been made. taste compensation, saying not enough progress had been made. we keep cominu progress had been made. we keep coming back _ progress had been made. we keep coming back to _ progress had been made. we keep coming back to the _ progress had been made. we keep coming back to the time _ progress had been made. we keep coming back to the time after i progress had been made. we keep coming back to the time after time after time. coming back to the time after time aftertime. hey coming back to the time after time after time. hey people. there's a lot of distractions and was brought up lot of distractions and was brought up all the time, butjust get on and pay people. everyone keeps referring to the scheme, understandably, as a compensation scheme but it's not, its financial redress. this is money these people are actually owed. and they've denoted for years. compensation sounds like it's something, benefit at the whim of government and all the rest of it. let's get this right and really put forward in that aspect of it. let’s forward in that aspect of it. let's take ou forward in that aspect of it. let's take you to _ forward in that aspect of it. let's take you to some _ forward in that aspect of it. let's take you to some of _ forward in that aspect of it. let's take you to some of the - forward in that aspect of it. let's take you to some of the day's i forward in that aspect of it. let's take you to some of the day's other news now, and the home secretary has called for a coordinated international action to deal with people smuggling gangs. speaking in new york, james cleverly set out his ambition for a new global response to tackle mass migration. let's listen to some of what he had to say. listen to some of what he had to sa . ., ~ ., ., ~ , , say. illegal migration minister is lethally dangerous. _ say. illegal migration minister is lethally dangerous. it _ say. illegal migration minister is lethally dangerous. it is - lethally dangerous. it is facilitated by criminal gangs who care not one jot about those who they've simply treated human cargo and they used to profit their foul trade and finance other criminal action. in recent years tens of thousands of people have died attempting irregular migration, and the world cannot stand idly by and let this carry on. so we need to work together to break the business model of these communal gangs responsible for driving up illegal migration minister is —— criminal gangs. international cooperation in all these errors is essential. —— driving up illegal migration numbers. just as the world has worked together to address climate change and seek to prevent conflict, it needs to do the same to combat this new challenge of illegally facilitated, unsustainable migration. and we are being innovative in the uk. our migration and economic development partnership with rwanda is an innovative way of dealing with illegal migration. let's turn now to the covid inquiry, which has moved to cardiff, where the welsh government's the handling of the pandemic has been under scrutiny. today looked at the rational of wales's timing of its lockdowns, different to those in england, as well as the relationship between the welsh and uk governments during the pandemic. we can cross live to thomas morgan in cardiff for the latest, take us through what has been happening there so far. —— live to tomos morgan because of its first day of the inquiry here in wales, procedural so far, we heard from you see from procedural so far, we heard from gm. see from both sides, and the last half an hour or see from both sides, and the last halfan hour orso, see from both sides, and the last half an hour or so, the covid—19 breed families must mix —— breed families' representation suggested one of the in line to be the next minister sent mixed messages. it was also said that mark drakeford was using whatsapp to discuss policy announcement regarding covid base decisions, he had sat in the past he was not using whatsapp for any big policy decisions but it was said that simply was not the case, from what they had seen. so some interesting evidence here today. as you mentioned there, the inquiry�*s purpose here in wales is to try to get into, really, the decisions made by first minister mark drakeford in the time between 2020 and 2022. a far more cautious approach here in wales, lockdowns were on the whole longer, easing took longer to happen here in wales, so there will be questions about the science and the reasoning behind that, really. so interesting information coming out here today, and we will hear more from some of those ministers named today by the bereaved families in about week three, when they are due to come here to give evidence. questions being asked about whether or not there was a failure of leadership? i or not there was a failure of leadership?— or not there was a failure of leadership? i think that is the cuestion leadership? i think that is the question that _ leadership? i think that is the question that many _ leadership? i think that is the question that many people i leadership? i think that is the i question that many people will be asking, and i think that is one of the things that the bereaved families want to know, really. they want lessons to be learned here. but i guess that will be in the third week when ministers here will be able to outline why they made some of those decisions. obviously the whole point of the inquiry going across the nations is that the minister responsible at the time in each one of the devolved nations can explain the rationale behind the decisions they made, really, of course. and obviously in westminster, they gave the reasons of why they wanted a more joined up approach, really. but at the time, back two, three, four years ago, the decision by ministers here, we were being told the cautious approach, staying in lockdown longer, was the right approach to protect people in wales, and on the hope that was respected but of there have also been some other outcomes of that decision, mental health issues, the long covid issues that have come out, so these are questions that families here in wales will want answering and that is what's hoping to come out of this. but it was also said there was a call for a wales only inquiry and they are disappointed that has not happened, so this three week period is what they will get. so this three week period is what they will get-— so this three week period is what the will net. ., ., ,, ., they will get. tomos, thank you for u -adatin they will get. tomos, thank you for updating is — they will get. tomos, thank you for updating is there. _ they will get. tomos, thank you for updating is there. back _ they will get. tomos, thank you for updating is there. back to - they will get. tomos, thank you for updating is there. back to our i they will get. tomos, thank you for updating is there. back to our main story, the post office inquiry has heard from henry staunton. good to see you, ben, take us through what stood out today. taste see you, ben, take us through what stood out today._ see you, ben, take us through what stood out today. we have heard some truly remarkable _ stood out today. we have heard some truly remarkable testimony _ stood out today. we have heard some truly remarkable testimony from i truly remarkable testimony from henry staunton today. so extraordinary that at times the mp5 questioning him were almost lost for words. but the most remarkable thing he said was in respect of an investigation that had been carried out into him personally, he said the investigation actually amounted to about four lines in an 80 page dossier compiled by the head of hr as part of a complaint against the chief executive, nick read. and he said this dossier in the process of dealing with it was taking a serious toll on nick read and was affecting his, in henry staunton's word's, emotional and mental health. he looked at ways of narrowing down focus on it and on the key things within it as a way of lighting that load. and he said this was what was being described as an attempt to suppress a whistle—blower investigation. but extraordinary to hear that he said that nick read had told him four times that he had considered resigning. but over the dossier itself and also over the question of how much he was paid. because an hour earlier, nick read was asked, have you ever considered resigning, he looked a bit taken aback and said no. and one of the mp5 listening said, it sounds like mps listening said, it sounds like the post office is a complete and utter shambles, and henry staunton did not disagree with that. and they asked, maybe it's time for the post office to be moved away from its ownership by the government into a different model, and henry staunton said, he supported some kind of a demutualisation model. but on the whole he said this should be about the postmasters, they're the ones who have really suffered in this, and this is meant to be a hearing into their compensation, but this is all become a huge distraction. so some extra testimony today, and took things in a unexpected direction. i am sure there will be plenty of full out from what we heard over the past few hours. thank you for updating us. there's plenty more detail on what's been happening in parliament today on our website, there is a live page, or or the bbc news app. you're watching bbc news. has this is bbc news, the headlines: concerns that hamas could reject the terms of a gaza ceasefire deal, which would include a forty—day pause in military operations. german chancellor olaf scholz rules out deploying european or nato ground troops in ukraine after the french president left open the possibility to do so. a new study finds a lack of chemotherapy and radiotherapy means cancer survival rates in the uk are lagging behind other major countries. and scientists discover that one of the world s tiniest fish produces sounds as loud as a pneumatic drill. sport now and a full round up from the bbc. hello from the bbc sport centre. kristoffer olsson is in hospital collapsing at home. the swedish international defender reportedly lost consciousness last tuesday — with his club saying he is suffering from an acute—brain related illness that is not due to self—harm of any kind, nor is it caused by external factors, they said.