obviously i didn't write the e—mail so it's hard for me to comment. and if you flick back to the earlier bit of the e—mail, i think as you can see from that, it clearly mentions a cabinet office process which is right and appropriate, but also, even when it talks about modelling on sectors, to bring that together with cmo thinking on the health impacts. even in that e—mail, you can see, as i said, i didn't write it so i'm not sure entirely what it's referring to, but it's clear that there is a cabinet office process that we are feeding into, cmo is feeding in and that's the right way for the prime minister to receive. , ., , , ., receive. there is no suggestion there should _ receive. there is no suggestion there should not _ receive. there is no suggestion there should not be _ receive. there is no suggestion there should not be a - receive. there is no suggestion there should not be a process, | receive. there is no suggestion - there should not be a process, there has to be a process, the cabinet office will synthesise to some extent what is contributed by other government departments. but these are the most senior officials in your department talking about your thoughts of what should be done in advance of a by—election and its concern that your voice might be watered down by the cabinet office and therefore there must have been something you were aware of if only in the most general terms. i something you were aware of if only in the most general terms.- in the most general terms. i think as i have said _ in the most general terms. i think as i have said previously, - in the most general terms. i think as i have said previously, i- in the most general terms. i think as i have said previously, i never. as i have said previously, i never felt that i didn't have an opportunity to feed in what i wanted to the prime minister. again, i didn't write an e—mail, i'm not sure how officials may have felt in their conversations with other departments or the cabinet office, i generally thought we had good constructive relations and for my part, i felt i was at the opposition to feed into the prime minister's thinking. mi the prime minister's thinking. all right. a second note where the debate was taking place before we look at the detail of the road map, you expressed concern in may, in fact in eight 915 meeting on the 14th of may that international polling suggested that the british people were more fearful of the virus then other countries and in the spectator article to which i have already referred you, you state, you say this. it's quoted, in every brief, we try to say, let's stop the theate narrative, it was always wrong from the beginning, i constantly said it was wrong. —— the theate narrative. what was your response concern about the general response concern about the general response of the british people —— a fear narrative. in response of the british people -- a fear narrative.— fear narrative. in general we are a consumption _ fear narrative. in general we are a consumption driven _ fear narrative. in general we are a consumption driven economy - fear narrative. in general we are a consumption driven economy so l consumption driven economy so people's jobs and livelihoods and our ability to pay for public service is a function of consumption being strong. if you have a situation like this where we have actively discouraged or shuts down consumption sectors from operating, once they reopen, it was a point of concern for me and for anyone thinking about the economy and those jobs as to the pace of return, of people returning to normal activity over time. people returning to normal activity overtime. because people returning to normal activity over time. because if they didn't, that would have significant implications for many people's jobs. and those sectors of the economy, and this is a really important point, that were most impacted by lockdown, consumption sectors, hospitality, retail, disproportionately affected people on the lowest incomes, people coming off welfare, women and ethnic minorities, those working part—time so those jobs as a matter of social justice were particularly important to try and safeguard. and polling was clear, i don't remember the exact firm, but there was polling which demonstrated there seems to be, there was greater reticence for people in the uk to want to return back to all those activities, even once things had been reopen. that would have genuine impact on people's lives and jobs and anything else that we want to do as a country. so they were concerned. the clock is ticking, i am going to try and ask you to be a little bit more concise if you wouldn't mind, prime minister. on the subject of the obvious understanding of the needs of those in part—time work, the vulnerable, the young, female employees, members of the black and minority ethnic sector, your statement makes it plain that if not at the forefront, certainly a major part of the exchequer�*s thinking throughout the pandemic was the need to ensure that their interests were not forgotten and that as much should be done as possible and ought to be done as possible in terms of trying to get the consumer sector back to life safeguard their position. and we willjust have a quick look where you have summarised the position, your statement 23069 and the interventions are at page 26. sorry, not 232069, your witness statement, page 26. in briefings and papers that were circulated before meetings, there was often reference to a consideration of the equalities impact. you received equality impact assessments in relation to hmt policies. you are obviously aware from an early stage that less well off households were particularly affected, how could you not be aware, so they were coming into your economic decision—making. i think thatis economic decision—making. i think that is clear. paragraph 83, you also refer to long covid. do you recall at what time long covid presented itself on the exchequer�*s arising? i presented itself on the exchequer's arisin: ? ., �* presented itself on the exchequer's arisina? ,,. arising? i don't specifically. -- exchequer's — arising? i don't specifically. -- exchequer's horizon? - arising? i don't specifically. -- exchequer's horizon? i- arising? i don't specifically. -- exchequer's horizon? i don't . exchequer's horizon? i don't specifically. i remember in the may plan having a conversation about consideration of other health impacts beyond the immediate covid impacts beyond the immediate covid impacts and i think there is some language in the may plan which talks about various other health impacts at that point. something i was keen to stress that was a consequence of all of this that we should understand. i don't remember specifically. understand. i don't remember specifically-— understand. i don't remember specifically. understand. i don't remember secificall. �* ., specifically. and on account as you riuhtl specifically. and on account as you riahtl sa specifically. and on account as you rightly say of _ specifically. and on account as you rightly say of the _ specifically. and on account as you rightly say of the need _ specifically. and on account as you rightly say of the need to - specifically. and on account as you rightly say of the need to ensure i rightly say of the need to ensure that the retail and hospitality sectors could be brought back to life as soon as reasonably possible, the treasury pushed, indeed, for the sector to be opened head of schools. that was the original position of hmt, was it? i that was the original position of hmt, was it?— that was the original position of hmt, was it?_ it. hmt, was it? ithink if i... it wasn't ultimately _ hmt, was it? ithink if i... it wasn't ultimately what - hmt, was it? i think if i... it - wasn't ultimately what happened, but i think that was the exchequer's position. iii i think that was the exchequer's osition. . ., i think that was the exchequer's osition. .. _, . , position. if i recall it correctly when i was — position. if i recall it correctly when i was having _ position. if i recall it correctly when i was having these - when i was having these deliberations or participating them in may, there is a letter i sent to the prime minister that contains it, nonessential retail i think you will have the exhibit that might be helpful, i took about nonexistent —— nonessential retail because of the millions ofjobs and the type of people in thosejobs. also millions ofjobs and the type of people in those jobs. also as we later discovered and was my sense during, sage themselves said that nonessential retail had a very limited impact on our model, the evidence concluded there was a minimum impact. in regard to schools, i should say i said in the main thing that they should be opened, particularly the early years, alongside or immediately after nonessential retail and before hospitality because i care very much about the impact on children and their educational attainment and development and that letter talks about those things. so retail because of the jobs and because it had minimal impact, immediately alongside that, particularly early years education, schools and nurseries, and only after that hospitality. so that was the sequencing. hospitality. so that was the sequencing-— hospitality. so that was the se . uencinu. ., sequencing. indeed, if we have 236585, an — sequencing. indeed, if we have 236585, an e-mail_ sequencing. indeed, if we have 236585, an e-mail from - sequencing. indeed, if we have 236585, an e-mail from your. 236585, an e—mailfrom your principal private secretary to various recipients. and on the first page there is a reference to the chancellor focusing page there is a reference to the chancellorfocusing in, perhaps it's on page two,... yes, the second bullet point. therefore hospitality openin bullet point. therefore hospitality open in the summer, july, and 2—stage things, this means open sectors now, schools and earlyjune and are nonessential between the two in mid—may. so certainly at the beginning of may, and this is dated i think lith of may, the proposal from the treasury is, we have got to get hospitality and particularly nonessential open, and then schools will follow. and there's another letter, an e—mail to 32085, paragraph 17 on page two, this is a letter delivering a road map dated may, paragraph 17, "we must then continue to our plan to return early years reception and years one to stick to school, that is continuing after the opening of nonessential retail can you recall why the final position was reached, the ordering which the school is a nonessential retail were opened, do you recall how that debate was resolved? ., ., you recall how that debate was resolved?— you recall how that debate was resolved? ., ., . ., , resolved? no, not particularly. i think ou resolved? no, not particularly. i think you said _ resolved? no, not particularly. i think you said previously - think you said previously hospitality was before schools, as you said there, it was not, it was retail and education pretty much together one after another and hospitality later.— hospitality later. that was the osition hospitality later. that was the position that _ hospitality later. that was the position that was _ hospitality later. that was the position that was reached, - hospitality later. that was the l position that was reached, yes. hospitality later. that was the - position that was reached, yes. that was also what _ position that was reached, yes. that was also what that _ position that was reached, yes. “inst was also what that e—mail said. the one you had previously also had hospitality injuly one you had previously also had hospitality in july and schools one you had previously also had hospitality injuly and schools and retail before then. hospitality in july and schools and retail before then.— hospitality in july and schools and retail before then. well, according to the e-mail _ retail before then. well, according to the e-mail from _ retail before then. well, according to the e-mail from the _ retail before then. well, according to the e-mail from the principal. to the e—mail from the principal private secretary dated lith of may, she says, open sectors now, and then schools earlyjune and nonessential between the two. to open sectors now, there nonessential, then schools. ., , schools. then hospitality thereafter. _ schools. then hospitality thereafter. i _ schools. then hospitality thereafter. i don't - schools. then hospitality thereafter. i don't have l schools. then hospitality| thereafter. i don't have it schools. then hospitality i thereafter. i don't have it in schools. then hospitality - thereafter. i don't have it in front of me. 5: ~ j~ thereafter. i don't have it in front of me. [1�*5 thereafter. i don't have it in front of me. j~ thereafter. i don't have it in front of me. ,':�* j~ ., of me. 236585. if you look at the months, of me. 236585. if you look at the months. my _ of me. 236585. if you look at the months, my reading _ of me. 236585. if you look at the months, my reading of _ of me. 236585. if you look at the months, my reading of it, - of me. 236585. if you look at the months, my reading of it, i- of me. 236585. if you look at the months, my reading of it, i don't think_ months, my reading of it, i don't think between the two makes sense. if you _ think between the two makes sense. if you have _ think between the two makes sense. if you have the second page up. yes, the second — if you have the second page up. yes, the second page- _ if you have the second page up. yes, the second page. i— if you have the second page up. yes, the second page. i think— if you have the second page up. yes, the second page. i think it— if you have the second page up. yes, the second page. i think it said, - the second page. i think it said, hospitality _ the second page. i think it said, hospitality open _ the second page. i think it said, hospitality open in _ the second page. i think it said, hospitality open in summer, - hospitality open in summer, brackets, july.— hospitality open in summer, brackets, july. this means open sectors now. — brackets, july. this means open sectors now, schools _ brackets, july. this means open sectors now, schools and - brackets, july. this means open sectors now, schools and early. brackets, july. this means open - sectors now, schools and early june sectors now, schools and earlyjune and nonessential between the two, mid—may. so nonessential is coming in before schools. just mid-may. so nonessential is coming in before schools.— in before schools. just a couple of weeks. in before schools. just a couple of weeks- you _ in before schools. just a couple of weeks. you said _ in before schools. just a couple of weeks. you said hospitality - in before schools. just a couple of weeks. you said hospitality was . in before schools. just a couple of. weeks. you said hospitality was also coming in, ijust wanted to reiterate that does make sense. between the two, doesn't make sense. it's first _ between the two, doesn't make sense. it's first it— between the two, doesn't make sense. it's first. , , ., between the two, doesn't make sense. it's first. , i. _ between the two, doesn't make sense. it'sfirst. , _ _ it's first. it is your policy, by minister- — it's first. it is your policy, by minister. all _ it's first. it is your policy, by minister. all i _ it's first. it is your policy, by minister. all i will _ it's first. it is your policy, by minister. all i will say - it's first. it is your policy, by minister. all i will say is, . it's first. it is your policy, by| minister. all i will say is, the oint minister. all i will say is, the point was — minister. all i will say is, the point was to _ minister. all i will say is, the point was to do _ minister. all i will say is, the point was to do retail- minister. all i will say is, the point was to do retail and - minister. all i will say is, the - point was to do retail and schools a couple of weeks apart in may and june, hospitality was always summer because it was the last thing. retail because, as you see from the letter that you had up in may, the jobs and the people particularly employed in those jobs, jobs and the people particularly employed in thosejobs, again, people who were more vulnerable work in retail, on lower incomes. those jobs therefore have a broader social purpose or benefit as well as the job itself. and in schools as far as i remember it, again, not my particular responsibility, there was actually a real concern that it would be very difficult to get schools to come back and i would imagine you have taken evidence on that point. my recollection was there was quite a lot of resistance from the sector about schools coming back, i think parents were also concerned and there was an issue that many schoolteachers were themselves isolated or impacted and impact it would be very difficult to have schools open in full. bii impact it would be very difficult to have schools open in full.- have schools open in full. all that was art have schools open in full. all that was part of _ have schools open in full. all that was part of the — have schools open in full. all that was part of the mix. _ have schools open in full. all that was part of the mix. i'm - have schools open in full. all that l was part of the mix. i'm suggesting to you that this wasn't exactly how it panned out, but it was quite clear that consideration is given to these various competing factors and reasons why schools could only be opened when they wear.- reasons why schools could only be opened when they wear. again, that cuestion is opened when they wear. again, that question is for— opened when they wear. again, that question is for the _ opened when they wear. again, that question is for the education - question is for the education secretary in the prime minister. from an economic perspective, the only input to the treasury would have to that deliberation or the cabinet office would be the labour market impact. that's why from a purely economic way it would be the education secretary who will talk about children's entertainment —— attainment, although i care very much about that, i had long—standing concerns about that. from an analytical perspective what the treasury can do is explain, unsurprisingly, if you open early years children and primary school it has a disproportionate benefit on the labour market because it means children's parents can return to work, you don't necessarily get that benefit from older students. around the same time. _ benefit from older students. around the same time, on _ benefit from older students. around the same time, on the _ benefit from older students. around the same time, on the 7th - benefit from older students. around the same time, on the 7th of - benefit from older students. around the same time, on the 7th of may i benefit from older students. around the same time, on the 7th of may in fact, you expressed your concern that unless the economy was reopened at perhaps a somewhat faster speed than some other cabinet ministers were advising, we would be at risk of placing the united kingdom at a competitive disadvantage. and you referred to international comparative data, in essence, however other european countries were shown, how we —— reopening the economy can be doing. can we look briefly at the issue of comparative data? did the treasury throughout the whole crisis refer repeatedly of course to what other countries were doing, what their data was demonstrating, what ultimate decisions they were taking in their particular positions and was that at the forefront of the debate when these arguments were ventilated in front of the prime minister? it’s front of the prime minister? it's too much to _ fr