conference in which we were trying to dealwith... i had conference in which we were trying to deal with... i had to level with the public— to deal with... i had to level with the public and say, i am afraid a large _ the public and say, i am afraid a large number of people will lose their— large number of people will lose their loved ones before their time and it_ their loved ones before their time and it was— their loved ones before their time and it was a pretty grim press conference. and in that discussion, we were _ conference. and in that discussion, we were asked about the way through. and i think. _ we were asked about the way through. and i think, patrick said the idea was to— and i think, patrick said the idea was to flatten the curve, suppress the virus _ was to flatten the curve, suppress the virus with some measure of herd immunity— the virus with some measure of herd immunity by— the virus with some measure of herd immunity by september, would be a -ood immunity by september, would be a good outcome is what i think he said _ good outcome is what i think he said i_ good outcome is what i think he said. i think he also said something to the _ said. i think he also said something to the effect of, it might not be... you need — to the effect of, it might not be... you need to— to the effect of, it might not be... you need to suppress the curve but it might _ you need to suppress the curve but it might not — you need to suppress the curve but it might not be necessary to stop everybody — it might not be necessary to stop everybody or even desirable to stop everybody _ everybody or even desirable to stop everybody getting the virus, because again. _ everybody getting the virus, because again. you _ everybody getting the virus, because again, you might want some, i think, some _ again, you might want some, i think, some measure of herd immunity. that was the _ some measure of herd immunity. that was the moment when people pricked up was the moment when people pricked up their— was the moment when people pricked up their ears and said, are they trying— up their ears and said, are they trying to— up their ears and said, are they trying to allow this thing to pass through— trying to allow this thing to pass through the population unchecked? with a _ through the population unchecked? with a view to herd immunity, which was not _ with a view to herd immunity, which was not what we wanted and not what patrick— was not what we wanted and not what patrick meant. we had to do quite a lot of— patrick meant. we had to do quite a lot of work— patrick meant. we had to do quite a lot of work to clear it up. because the objective was to protect the nhs and save _ the objective was to protect the nhs and save lives, to save lives by protecting _ and save lives, to save lives by protecting the nhs. that was the objective — protecting the nhs. that was the objective. the strategy will to suppress the curve and keep the r below— suppress the curve and keep the r beiow one~ — suppress the curve and keep the r below one. use everything we could to do— below one. use everything we could to do that — below one. use everything we could to do that. herd immunity was going to do that. herd immunity was going to be, _ to do that. herd immunity was going to be, we _ to do that. herd immunity was going to be, we hoped a by—product of that campaign _ to be, we hoped a by—product of that campaign which might be very long and very— campaign which might be very long and very difficult. at campaign which might be very long and very difficult.— campaign which might be very long and very difficult. at the same time in cobra on _ and very difficult. at the same time in cobra on the _ and very difficult. at the same time in cobra on the 9th _ and very difficult. at the same time in cobra on the 9th of— and very difficult. at the same time in cobra on the 9th of march, - and very difficult. at the same time in cobra on the 9th of march, in i in cobra on the 9th of march, in sage on the 9th of march and cobra on the 12th of march, there were repeated references to the need to delay the peak of the virus as opposed to suppressing it entirely because of the risk of an un—coiled spring, of appointing back, the second way. if we could have that document back, 480 399 and 730 942, the 14th of march, probably page three of that document, 480 399. it appears this debate about herd immunity and the debate about an uncoiled spring had caused a considerable concern because at 7:39.42, he said it was when you said you were needing a proportion of the population to be protected. and then you said civil service need to grasp. what did you mean by that? i cannot say exactly what the civil servants — i cannot say exactly what the civil servants i— i cannot say exactly what the civil servants i was thinking of in that context — servants i was thinking of in that context i— servants i was thinking of in that context. i think probably what i mean _ context. i think probably what i mean is, — context. i think probably what i mean is, we have set a hare running by mistake. — mean is, we have set a hare running by mistake. i— mean is, we have set a hare running by mistake, i think patrick really did a _ by mistake, i think patrick really did a huge — by mistake, i think patrick really did a huge job to try and clear it up. did a huge job to try and clear it do we — did a huge job to try and clear it do we att— did a huge job to try and clear it up. we all need to set the public's mind _ up. we all need to set the public's mind at— up. we all need to set the public's mind at rest and explain what we are doing _ mind at rest and explain what we are doing it _ mind at rest and explain what we are doing it is _ mind at rest and explain what we are doing it is to— mind at rest and explain what we are doing. it is to protect the nhs and save the — doing. it is to protect the nhs and save life. ., , doing. it is to protect the nhs and save life. . , , ., , save life. that is the priority. 104915, the _ save life. that is the priority. 104915, the 15th _ save life. that is the priority. 104915, the 15th of _ save life. that is the priority. 104915, the 15th of march, i save life. that is the priority. i 104915, the 15th of march, page save life. that is the priority. - 104915, the 15th of march, page six of this document, you can be seen to be sane given what has happened in italy, we simply have no time. this was the 15th? _ italy, we simply have no time. this was the 15th? 104915. _ italy, we simply have no time. this was the 15th? 104915. there we are, the 15th— was the 15th? 104915. there we are, the 15th of— was the 15th? 104915. there we are, the 15th of march, we have no time. we have _ the 15th of march, we have no time. we have jumped forward, but that is sunday— we have jumped forward, but that is sunday the _ we have jumped forward, but that is sunday the 15th of march in the middle — sunday the 15th of march in the middle of all the debates you are having _ middle of all the debates you are having with your advisers. just middle of all the debates you are having with your advisers.- having with your advisers. just to finish off some _ having with your advisers. just to finish off some of _ having with your advisers. just to finish off some of the _ having with your advisers. just to finish off some of the points - having with your advisers. just to l finish off some of the points which you have addressed, in relation to behavioural fatigue and you been told the timing of implementations of interventions was vital, the evidence before the inquiry shows the sage meeting on the 13th of march, on the friday, you were not an attendee of sage, was told, and the minutes of the sage meeting make this plane, difficulty maintaining behaviours should not be taken as a reason to delay implementation. then warmer, your adviser, was present at that meeting and he was reporting back to number ten. where you told that in contrast to what you had been told about the need for timing and behaviouralfatigue been told about the need for timing and behavioural fatigue and so on, sage was in fact saying by the 13th, don't take that as a reason to delay implementation? in don't take that as a reason to delay implementation?— implementation? in effect, yes. in the sense that _ implementation? in effect, yes. in the sense that was... _ implementation? in effect, yes. in the sense that was. .. i _ implementation? in effect, yes. in the sense that was... i wasn't - implementation? in effect, yes. in the sense that was... i wasn't told | the sense that was... i wasn't told that particular detail about behavioural fatigue not being a reason — behavioural fatigue not being a reason to— behavioural fatigue not being a reason to delay implementation. but what i _ reason to delay implementation. but what i was _ reason to delay implementation. but what i was told is that we had new data, _ what i was told is that we had new data. we _ what i was told is that we had new data, we were at least, you know, five to _ data, we were at least, you know, five to seven — data, we were at least, you know, five to seven days further on, possibly— five to seven days further on, possibly more in the curve than we thought— possibly more in the curve than we thought we — possibly more in the curve than we thought we were and that the margin of manoeuvre that sage had seemed to think we _ of manoeuvre that sage had seemed to think we had and was offering to us on the _ think we had and was offering to us on the 12th. — think we had and was offering to us on the 12th, if you remember they say then— on the 12th, if you remember they say then there are four things you can do. _ say then there are four things you can do. self— say then there are four things you can do, self isolation for seven days— can do, self isolation for seven days if— can do, self isolation for seven days if you _ can do, self isolation for seven days if you have got any kind of symptoms, even that we could postpone — symptoms, even that we could postpone until the monday the 16th. then there is household isolation for 14— then there is household isolation for 14 days. and then a couple of more _ for 14 days. and then a couple of more measures, advice for the vulnerable _ more measures, advice for the vulnerable and then for those over 70. vulnerable and then for those over 70 in— vulnerable and then for those over 70 in those — vulnerable and then for those over 70. in those last three they say can actually— 70. in those last three they say can actually be — 70. in those last three they say can actually be put off for one to three weeks _ actually be put off for one to three weeks on — actually be put off for one to three weeks on the 12, then on the 13th that's— weeks on the 12, then on the 13th that's the — weeks on the 12, then on the 13th that's the key moment, really. that's— that's the key moment, really. that's when i get called back on the friday— that's when i get called back on the friday evening. i come back first thing _ friday evening. i come back first thing in — friday evening. i come back first thing in the morning and you know the rest _ thing in the morning and you know the rest. gn thing in the morning and you know the rest. ' ., . the rest. on the 12th of march there was a cobra _ the rest. on the 12th of march there was a cobra meeting, _ the rest. on the 12th of march there was a cobra meeting, which - the rest. on the 12th of march there was a cobra meeting, which you i was a cobra meeting, which you chaired 5209 and there is a page six, a graph... chaired 5209 and there is a page six. a graph---— six, a graph... yes. i remember lookin: six, a graph... yes. i remember looking at— six, a graph... yes. i remember looking at this. _ six, a graph... yes. i remember looking at this. this _ six, a graph... yes. i remember looking at this. this page - six, a graph... yes. i remember looking at this. this page is - looking at this. this page is entitled what _ looking at this. this page is entitled what would - looking at this. this page is entitled what would the - looking at this. this page is i entitled what would the effect looking at this. this page is - entitled what would the effect be in the nhs of interventions? what entitled what would the effect be in the nhs of interventions? what date is this again? — the nhs of interventions? what date is this again? the _ the nhs of interventions? what date is this again? the 12th _ the nhs of interventions? what date is this again? the 12th of _ the nhs of interventions? what date is this again? the 12th of march, - is this again? the 12th of march, the thursday- — is this again? the 12th of march, the thursday. on _ is this again? the 12th of march, the thursday. on the _ is this again? the 12th of march, the thursday. on the right-handj is this again? the 12th of march, - the thursday. on the right-hand side the thursday. 0n the right—hand side you can see the first graph, no measures, so no interventions. 0n the bottom right—hand corner, second graph, measures one and two are implemented. 0ne graph, measures one and two are implemented. one and two were seven—day isolation and number two was household isolation. if we could scroll back out again, please. in both graphs the red line, free able beds and the black line, total nhs beds and the black line, total nhs beds make plain that whatever you do, unmitigated or mitigated through measures one and two, the nhs will be massively overwhelmed. what did you make of that? i be massively overwhelmed. what did you make of that?— you make of that? i was bewildered, to be honest- _ you make of that? i was bewildered, to be honest. i— you make of that? i was bewildered, to be honest. i remember— you make of that? i was bewildered, to be honest. i remember looking i you make of that? i was bewildered, to be honest. i remember looking atj to be honest. i remember looking at that graph _ to be honest. i remember looking at that graph and thinking, in either case _ that graph and thinking, in either case we — that graph and thinking, in either case we are facing... an absolutely intoierabie — case we are facing... an absolutely intolerable situation. although i ciocked — intolerable situation. although i clocked it, ithought, well, there must _ clocked it, ithought, well, there must be — clocked it, ithought, well, there must be a — clocked it, ithought, well, there must be a reason why we are not being _ must be a reason why we are not being told — must be a reason why we are not being told to go urgently. maybe that reason is all the things that we discussed. sol that reason is all the things that we discussed. so i have to admit, then— we discussed. so i have to admit, then i_ we discussed. so i have to admit, then i say— we discussed. so i have to admit, then i say in— we discussed. so i have to admit, then i say in my statement, i think at this— then i say in my statement, i think at this point— then i say in my statement, i think at this point there is a certain amount— at this point there is a certain amount of— at this point there is a certain amount of incoherence in our thinking _ amount of incoherence in our thinking. because the graph makes it clear that _ thinking. because the graph makes it clear that things are going wrong. and that — clear that things are going wrong. and that is — clear that things are going wrong. and that is cleared up the following day. and that is cleared up the following da . ., �* , ., , and that is cleared up the following da. ., �* , day. you didn't yourself ask firstl , day. you didn't yourself ask firstly. what _ day. you didn't yourself ask firstly, what can _ day. you didn't yourself ask firstly, what can be - day. you didn't yourself ask firstly, what can be done i day. you didn't yourself ask firstly, what can be done to j day. you didn't yourself ask - firstly, what can be done to bring the blue part of the chart below the black line, why are we talking in terms of these modest measures, which may or may not be imposed this week. we have got to bring the blue part below the lines... i week. we have got to bring the blue part below the lines. . ._ part below the lines... i didn't. secondly. _ part below the lines... i didn't. secondly. why _ part below the lines... i didn't. secondly, why didn't _ part below the lines... i didn't. secondly, why didn't you - part below the lines... i didn't. secondly, why didn't you ask, l part below the lines... i didn't. i secondly, why didn't you ask, why are you presenting me with this and at the same time, we mustn't go to early with interventions? i am afraid, listening _ early with interventions? i am afraid, listening to _ early with interventions? i am afraid, listening to the - early with interventions? i am afraid, listening to the advice i was being _ afraid, listening to the advice i was being given about time limits, and looking with puzzlement at the graphs _ and looking with puzzlement at the graphs and what i should have done, and thankfully it was only a matter of a day— and thankfully it was only a matter of a day or— and thankfully it was only a matter of a day or two before the thing was resolved, _ of a day or two before the thing was resolved, what i should have done was: _ resolved, what i should have done was, as— resolved, what i should have done was, as soon as i saw that graph, said, _ was, as soon as i saw that graph, said. hang — was, as soon as i saw that graph, said, hang on, this is not coherent with what— said, hang on, this is not coherent with what you are telling me about time limits. i do remember looking at it and _ time limits. i do remember looking at it and thinking, there was something amiss.— at it and thinking, there was something amiss. at it and thinking, there was somethin: amiss. �* ., , ., something amiss. around this time on the 5th of march, _ something amiss. around this time on the 5th of march, going _ something amiss. around this time on the 5th of march, going back - something amiss. around this time on the 5th of march, going back to - something amiss. around this time on the 5th of march, going back to the i the 5th of march, going back to the beginning of the week, on the 5th of march there was a covid—i9 meeting in which advice was given to the effect that a prohibition on mass gatherings was not necessary. did you, throughout that week, as you had in fact during early weeks, receive advice that for epidemiological purposes at any rate, there was no need to shut mass gatherings, sporting events? to be gatherings, sporting events? to be fair, to the people _ gatherings, sporting events? to be fair, to the people giving _ gatherings, sporting events? to be fair, to the people giving the advice. — fair, to the people giving the advice. it— fair, to the people giving the advice, it sounded reasonable at the time _ advice, it sounded reasonable at the time given — advice, it sounded reasonable at the time. given what we knew, because what _ time. given what we knew, because what they— time. given what we knew, because what they said was, if you do this, what _ what they said was, if you do this, what you _ what they said was, if you do this, what you will do is push everybody into the _ what you will do is push everybody into the pubs and the warm and enclosed — into the pubs and the warm and enclosed spaces where transmission will be _ enclosed spaces where transmission will be even faster. that was the point _ will be even faster. that was the point that — will be even faster. that was the point that was made. you will be even faster. that was the point that was made.— will be even faster. that was the point that was made. you were, by our own point that was made. you were, by your own words. — point that was made. you were, by your own words, following - point that was made. you were, by your own words, following the - your own words, following the science rather than being directed by the science. it must have been apparent to you that this was presentation a disastrous, to keep mass gatherings open whilst you were debating the closure of schools as one of the possible interventions? that is true, but i felt the public didn't— that is true, but i felt the public didn't get— that is true, but i felt the public didn't get it... but that was true, many— didn't get it... but that was true, many of— didn't get it... but that was true, many of the _ didn't get it... but that was true, many of the measures that we put in place _ many of the measures that we put in place throughout the pandemic, there was often _ place throughout the pandemic, there was often a _ place throughout the pandemic, there was often a gap between the public conviction— was often a gap between the public conviction about something, and the scientific— conviction about something, and the scientific certainty about the effectiveness of that measure. borders — effectiveness of that measure. borders would be an example, masks might— borders would be an example, masks might be _ borders would be an example, masks might be another example. you borders would be an example, masks might be another example.— might be another example. you have hitthlihted might be another example. you have highlighted the _ might be another example. you have highlighted the importance _ might be another example. you have highlighted the importance of - highlighted the importance of communications, mrjohnson, in terms of leadership and in terms of beginning to direct the country that there were terribly difficult times ahead and impossible choices to be made, the closure of mass gatherings would have sent a vital message, would have sent a vital message, would it not? i would have sent a vital message, would it not?— would it not? i had already told --eole would it not? i had already told people on _ would it not? i had already told people on the _ would it not? i had already told people on the ninth, _ would it not? i had already told people on the ninth, is - would it not? i had already told people on the ninth, is severall would it not? i had already told - people on the ninth, is several days before. _ people on the ninth, is several days before. that — people on the ninth, is several days before, that they were going to have to restrict _ before, that they were going to have to restrict social contract. and on the 12. _ to restrict social contract. and on the 12. i— to restrict social contract. and on the 12. i had _ to restrict social contract. and on the 12, i had given them, i think a pretty— the 12, i had given them, i think a pretty powerful and in many ways frightening message about what was lloii'i frightening message about what was going to _ frightening message about what was going to happen. and the effect of that i_ going to happen. and the effect of that i think did show up in people's behaviour~ — that i think did show up in people's behaviour. so that i think did show up in people's behaviour. ., . ., behaviour. so we are clear, the cheltenham _ behaviour. so we are clear, the cheltenham festival— behaviour. so we are clear, the cheltenham festival continued | behaviour. so we are clear, the i cheltenham festival continued the week of the tenth and there was an atletico madrid match and mass gathering sporting events will not, in fact, shut until the following week. . . in fact, shut until the following week. , . ., , in fact, shut until the following week. , ., . , week. yes, and as... with hindsight, as a symbol— week. yes, and as... with hindsight, as a symbol of— week. yes, and as... with hindsight, as a symbol of the _ week. yes, and as... with hindsight, as a symbol of the government's - as a symbol of the government's earnestness rather thanjust is earnestness rather than just is being — earnestness rather thanjust is being guided by the science, we should _ being guided by the science, we should perhaps have done that. i agree _ should perhaps have done that. i agree with — should perhaps have done that. i agree with you. no should perhaps have done that. i agree with yon-— should perhaps have done that. i agree with you. should perhaps have done that. i atree with ou. ., ., , ., agree with you. no doubt that was in accordance with _ agree with you. no doubt that was in accordance with your _ agree with you. no doubt that was in accordance with your own _ agree with you. no doubt that was in accordance with your own libertarian | accordance with your own libertarian instincts? that accordance with your own libertarian instincts? �* , accordance with your own libertarian instincts? . , , ., accordance with your own libertarian instincts? . , , . instincts? at every stage i was weitthin instincts? at every stage i was weighing the _ instincts? at every stage i was weighing the massive - instincts? at every stage i was weighing the massive costs . instincts? at every stage i was weighing the massive costs of| instincts? at every stage i was - weighing the massive costs of what weighing the massive costs of what we were _ weighing the massive costs of what we were doing to people's psyche, life chances, but back when you talk about _ life chances, but back when you talk about the _ life chances, but back when you talk about the economy you are talking about _ about the economy you are talking about people in all walks of life who suddenly can't get to do the thing _ who suddenly can't get to do the thing they need to do to earn a iiving~ — thing they need to do to earn a living. what we were obliged to do was very. — living. what we were obliged to do was very, very destructive for a lot of peopie — was very, very destructive for a lot of people who were at least able to bear the _ of people who were at least able to bear the cost and at least able to manage — bear the cost and at least able to manage it — bear the cost and at least able to manage it— bear the cost and at least able to mana . e it. ~' ., manage it. over the weekend of the 13th, 14th manage it. over the weekend of the 13th. 14th of — manage it. over the weekend of the 13th, 14th of march _ manage it. over the weekend of the 13th, 14th of march there _ manage it. over the weekend of the 13th, 14th of march there was, - manage it. over the weekend of the 13th, 14th of march there was, what| 13th, 14th of march there was, what has been described by a variety of witnesses, a strange purposes. it doesn't matter whether it was celebration of the plan, changing direction, there was a significant change. it is plain from the evidence, but ultimately the decision is for my lady, there were a number of individuals who were pushing the change. dominic cummings, with his colleagues, ben and mark warner and also helen mcnamara and imran shafi all met on the friday night with dominic cummings' whiteboard and they worked out much more immediate and stringent measures were required to prevent the nhs from being overwhelmed. during the course of that week, the days before the weekend of the 14th, 15th of march, it is obvious data being provided to number ten, we have seen part of it in that memo to sage, showed the likely impact on the nhs. why wasn't the dhs e responsible for public health, pushing you harder during that week to more stringent changes. why do you think that department, it appears from the evidence was still trying to go for the squash the sombrero, part mitigation, herd immunity route as opposed to recognising, we must have suppression, we have got to stop this now before it is too late? mr; this now before it is too late? my memory of it is slightly different from _ memory of it is slightly different from that— memory of it is slightly different from that account, or maybe it might be the _ from that account, or maybe it might be the same — from that account, or maybe it might be the same. what i felt happened was that— be the same. what i felt happened was that we were in a state now where _ was that we were in a state now where we — was that we were in a state now where we knew we had a massive problem — where we knew we had a massive problem. we knew we were probably lloii'i problem. we knew we were probably going to _ problem. we knew we were probably going to have to act in ways we hadn't — going to have to act in ways we hadn't bargained for and were still being _ hadn't bargained for and were still being developed. we still thought we had a bit _ being developed. we still thought we had a bit of time, but not very much. — had a bit of time, but not very much, probably and that was what the scientific— much, probably and that was what the scientific guidance was saying. if you look— scientific guidance was saying. if you look at that long paper by sage on the _ you look at that long paper by sage on the 12. _ you look at that long paper by sage on the 12, you can see that, i have quoted _ on the 12, you can see that, i have quoted a _ on the 12, you can see that, i have quoted a bit— on the 12, you can see that, i have quoted a bit of it. my impression, i may be _ quoted a bit of it. my impression, i may be wrong about this, but my impression — may be wrong about this, but my impression was that on the 13th the radical— impression was that on the 13th the radical change referred to is really wrong _ radical change referred to is really wrong about the time limits thing and while — wrong about the time limits thing and while i think sage so, at least that what— and while i think sage so, at least that what was conveyed to me, was that what was conveyed to me, was that the _ that what was conveyed to me, was that the virus was now spreading much _ that the virus was now spreading much more rapidly in the uk than they had — much more rapidly in the uk than they had bargained for. therefore, we had _ they had bargained for. therefore, we had to— they had bargained for. therefore, we had to accelerate and i think it was a _ we had to accelerate and i think it was a confluence of opinion. the peopie _ was a confluence of opinion. the peopie i— was a confluence of opinion. the people i talk to on the saturday morning — people i talk to on the saturday morning where the people you would expect. _ morning where the people you would expect. it _ morning where the people you would expect, it was chris, patrick, imran. — expect, it was chris, patrick, imran, stuart, eitheradvisers. i wouldn't— imran, stuart, eitheradvisers. i wouldn't want to... i wouldn't want tom _ wouldn't want to... i wouldn't want tom i_ wouldn't want to... i wouldn't want tom i am — wouldn't want to... i wouldn't want to... lam inclined wouldn't want to... i wouldn't want to... i am inclined tojust run away with— to... i am inclined tojust run away with the _ to... i am inclined tojust run away with the idea — to... i am inclined tojust run away with the idea that it all would have sailed _ with the idea that it all would have sailed on. — with the idea that it all would have sailed on, had it not been for the intervention of number ten. i think that sage _ intervention of number ten. i think that sage themselves on the 13th had seen very seriously and very clearly something — seen very seriously and very clearly something needed to be done. that was m something needed to be done. trust was my impression. until saturday the 14th of march when mr cummins presented his whiteboard, in the middle of numerous other meetings and talked about plan b, until that point no one in the dhs e has said we are off the mark, we have gone wrong, we have got to accelerate and impose more stringent measures? mr; impose more stringent measures? my impression is the critical moment was indeed, as you say, that sage meeting _ was indeed, as you say, that sage meeting where a number of scientists, epidemiologists looked at the _ scientists, epidemiologists looked at the data and said, i am afraid we are off— at the data and said, i am afraid we are off the — at the data and said, i am afraid we are off the pace here. i think that is what _ are off the pace here. i think that is what happened. in are off the pace here. i think that is what happened.— are off the pace here. i think that is what happened. in his evidence, mr hancock _ is what happened. in his evidence, mr hancock said _ is what happened. in his evidence, mr hancock said on _ is what happened. in his evidence, mr hancock said on that _ is what happened. in his evidence, mr hancock said on that friday - is what happened. in his evidence, mr hancock said on that friday the j mr hancock said on that friday the 13th of march he called you to tell you there needed to be an immediate lockdown. do you recall that call? i am afraid i don't, it has been a long _ am afraid i don't, it has been a longtime _ am afraid i don't, it has been a long time. in am afraid i don't, it has been a long time-— am afraid i don't, it has been a lont time. , ,, , ., long time. in his witness statement, mr cummings _ long time. in his witness statement, mr cummings said _ long time. in his witness statement, mr cummings said on _ long time. in his witness statement, mr cummings said on page - long time. in his witness statement, mr cummings said on page 49, - long time. in his witness statement, | mr cummings said on page 49, during the course of the saturday, "the prime minister asked reasonable questions, including why aren't hancock, chris whitty, valance telling me this?" do you remember that discussion? i telling me this?" do you remember that discussion?— that discussion? i remember them beint that discussion? i remember them being there- _ that discussion? i remember them being there. there _ that discussion? i remember them being there. there was _ that discussion? i remember them being there. there was a - that discussion? i remember them being there. there was a meeting | that discussion? i remember them i being there. there was a meeting and then another— being there. there was a meeting and then another meeting _ being there. there was a meeting and then another meeting and _ being there. there was a meeting and then another meeting and a _ being there. there was a meeting andj then another meeting and a follow-up then another meeting and a follow—up meeting with yourself and mr cummings and then a second follower meeting and then another meeting. we had a lot of meetings that day. at one of them, mr cummings says he turned to him and said, why aren't hancock, witty and valance telling me this. do you recall that debate? i don't recall it. but what idon't recall it. but what certainty— i don't recall it. but what certainly is possible is that i was ailudingm — certainly is possible is that i was aiiudingm i_ certainly is possible is that i was alluding... iwas certainly is possible is that i was alluding... i was looking with, you know. _ alluding... i was looking with, you know, dismay at what was happening, this may— know, dismay at what was happening, this may about what we were going to have to _ this may about what we were going to have to do _ this may about what we were going to have to do and reflecting that this was not _ have to do and reflecting that this was not the message that i... i am conjecturing. — was not the message that i... i am conjecturing, this is not what i heard — conjecturing, this is not what i heard over— conjecturing, this is not what i heard over the past few days. you don't recall? _ heard over the past few days. you don't recall? i— heard over the past few days. you don't recall? i don't _ heard over the past few days. you don't recall? i don't recall - heard over the past few days. you don't recall? i don't recall sayingl don't recall? i don't recall saying that. 183 889. _ don't recall? i don't recall saying that. 183 889. this _ don't recall? i don't recall saying that. 185 889. this is _ don't recall? i don't recall saying that. 185 889. this is the - don't recall? i don't recall saying i that. 183 889. this is the document that. 183 889. this is the document that sets out _ that. 183 889. this is the document that sets out the _ that. 183 889. this is the document that sets out the current _ that. 183 889. this is the document that sets out the current plan i that. 183 889. this is the document that sets out the current plan and i that sets out the current plan and the proposal alternative plan, briefing and covid—i9 response. there is a variant on the graph that you saw before, but the current plan, if you could scroll by that again, we can see current plan and alternative plan at the bottom of the page. in summary, is this correct, mrjohnson? throughout that weekend of the 14th and 15th of march, there were multiple meetings, a variety of different people pushed for different speeds of intervention. you can see from the whatsapp, some people said go now. other people said, we have got to move fast. but in any event there was a very real understanding that more had to be done, more stringent measures had to be imposed and cobra it would have to consider all that on the monday when it next convened? yes, my impression was that ben warner— yes, my impression was that ben warner and — yes, my impression was that ben warner and others were doing. i don't _ warner and others were doing. i don't know— warner and others were doing. i don't know about the differences in views. _ don't know about the differences in views. but— don't know about the differences in views, but what they were doing was trying _ views, but what they were doing was trying to— views, but what they were doing was trying to take the sage meeting of the previous day and give to me, the iogicai— the previous day and give to me, the logical consequences of that. but onl ou logical consequences of that. hit only you could decide the strategies and you decide it, did you not, by the sunday night when you called sir patrick vallance and set chris whitty to another meeting, you decided the alternative plan would have to be followed and you gave, as we will see in a moment, number of directions as to what needed to be done? . . directions as to what needed to be done? , . ., , directions as to what needed to be done? , . .,, ., , ,., , done? yes, i mean, it was absolutely clear by the — done? yes, i mean, it was absolutely clear by the saturday _ done? yes, i mean, it was absolutely clear by the saturday that _ done? yes, i mean, it was absolutely clear by the saturday that we - done? yes, i mean, it was absolutely clear by the saturday that we had i done? yes, i mean, it was absolutely clear by the saturday that we had to i clear by the saturday that we had to act. clear by the saturday that we had to act we _ clear by the saturday that we had to act. we were of time. the clear by the saturday that we had to act. we were of time.— act. we were of time. the inquiry needs to ask— act. we were of time. the inquiry needs to ask you _ act. we were of time. the inquiry needs to ask you this, _ act. we were of time. the inquiry needs to ask you this, to - act. we were of time. the inquiry needs to ask you this, to what i needs to ask you this, to what extent did you appreciate by the sunday night that a lockdown decision, a stay at home mandatory order was it inevitable? it honestly wasn't imposed until monday the 23rd of march and during the course of the week there were a great deal many complex, extremely complex operational issues to circumnavigate. the shielding system having to be built effectively from scratch. getting hold of data from the nhs, we can see there were real issues about the preparedness of the cabinet office around that time, from mr cummings' whatsapp is with no plans and totally behind the pace. was it a question of you deciding there had to be a lockdown but time would be needed to put into place or, you would start the arrangements which could accommodate arrangements which could accommodate a lockdown but that decision wouldn't then be taken for another week. i wouldn't then be taken for another week. ~ . wouldn't then be taken for another week. ~' . ., ., .. wouldn't then be taken for another week. ,, ., ., ., ,, ., week. i think that looking at the t-rahs. .. week. i think that looking at the graphs- -- i _ week. i think that looking at the graphs--- iwas— week. i think that looking at the graphs... i was reconciled, i week. i think that looking at the graphs... i was reconciled, ori graphs... i was reconciled, or getting — graphs... i was reconciled, or getting increasingly reconciled to the fact— getting increasingly reconciled to the fact that we were going to have to do— the fact that we were going to have to do a _ the fact that we were going to have to do a huge amount of more to suppress— to do a huge amount of more to suppress the virus. just to get back to an _ suppress the virus. just to get back to an early— suppress the virus. just to get back to an early point, this was not something the country had been through. — something the country had been through, it was hard to get 1's head around _ through, it was hard to get 1's head around the — through, it was hard to get 1's head around the legal complications, they were enormous. how to do it. you are right. _ were enormous. how to do it. you are right. all— were enormous. how to do it. you are right. all that — were enormous. how to do it. you are right, all that had to be worked through — right, all that had to be worked through. we had started the bill a lon- through. we had started the bill a long time — through. we had started the bill a long time ago, the 5th of february, but my— long time ago, the 5th of february, but my state of mind then is, i am now more — but my state of mind then is, i am now more or— but my state of mind then is, i am now more or less in virus fighting mode~ _ now more or less in virus fighting mode i_ now more or less in virus fighting mode~ i am — now more or less in virus fighting mode. i am thinking, we now more or less in virus fighting mode. lam thinking, we have now more or less in virus fighting mode. i am thinking, we have got to sort this— mode. i am thinking, we have got to sort this out — mode. i am thinking, we have got to sort this out. there is then a series— sort this out. there is then a series of— sort this out. there is then a series of things we do leading up to the 23rd _ series of things we do leading up to the 23rd. but series of things we do leading up to the 23rd. �* , ., �* , the 23rd. but you weren't entirely in virus fighting _ the 23rd. but you weren't entirely in virus fighting mood. _ the 23rd. but you weren't entirely in virus fighting mood. if - the 23rd. but you weren't entirely in virus fighting mood. if we i the 23rd. but you weren't entirely in virus fighting mood. if we look| in virus fighting mood. if we look at 273 872, page 55, we can see part of the seemingly perennial debate in your own mind as to what should be done. mr cummings asks lee kane if he could just scroll into that screenshot. he saidi he said i am exhausted talking to him, i have had to sit here for two hoursjust to stop him, i have had to sit here for two hours just to stop him from saying stupid things. mrjohnson, he would be inhuman, perhaps, if you hadn't in that terrible week oscillated and went over in your own mind about what had to be done. but is it fair to say that you made your doubts and oscillation clear to those around you? i oscillation clear to those around ou? ~ . . , oscillation clear to those around ou? ,, . , , ., , oscillation clear to those around ou? ~' , ., you? i think it was my “0b to address alli you? i think it was my “0b to address all the i you? i think it was my job to | address all the consequences you? i think it was my job to i address all the consequences of you? i think it was my job to - address all the consequences of what we were _ address all the consequences of what we were doing and to test the policy. — we were doing and to test the policy, which as you can see, determined we deliver get on and do. even though it was a completely novel— even though it was a completely novel policy, absolutely dramatic thing _ novel policy, absolutely dramatic thing to — novel policy, absolutely dramatic thing to do, what he is referring to here is— thing to do, what he is referring to here is a _ thing to do, what he is referring to here is a conversation with the chancellor— here is a conversation with the chancellor where i am talking about the downsides, i am talking about the downsides, i am talking about the costs — the downsides, i am talking about the costs. and i'm negligent, it would _ the costs. and i'm negligent, it would have been totally negligent not to _ would have been totally negligent not to have had such a conversation. not to— not to have had such a conversation. not to have — not to have had such a conversation. not to have gone through with the h m treasury, the economic ramifications of what i was proposing to do. and i need to do that. _ proposing to do. and i need to do that. it _ proposing to do. and i need to do that, it didn't in any way stop us or divert— that, it didn't in any way stop us or divert us— that, it didn't in any way stop us or divert us from the crescendo of actions _ or divert us from the crescendo of actions that — or divert us from the crescendo of actions that we took.— actions that we took. forgive me, the suggestion — actions that we took. forgive me, the suggestion is _ actions that we took. forgive me, the suggestion is not _ actions that we took. forgive me, the suggestion is not being i actions that we took. forgive me, the suggestion is not being made | the suggestion is not being made here that you, having reached a view on public health grounds, tuck yourself off to speak to the treasury and see what arguments needed to be made properly on behalf of the economic consequences that would ensue from a lockdown. it is that your own decision—making, your ownjudgment back and that your own decision—making, your own judgment back and feared and that by implication, this is a poor example of leadership function, you couldn't make up your own mind as to what should be done? 0n the contrary, i made up my mind, we are getting on and doing it, we are not being diverted. i've got the chancellor of the checker with me saying there is a risk to the uk bond markets and our ability to raise sovereign debt, which matters massively to people in this country. it matters to the livelihoods of people up and down the land. i had to go through the arguments and that is what i was doing. 1&6. to go through the arguments and that is what i was doing.— is what i was doing. 146, 66, page 92, our is what i was doing. 146, 66, page 92. your own _ is what i was doing. 146, 66, page 92, your own private _ is what i was doing. 146, 66, page 92, your own private secretary, i 92, your own private secretary, imran chaffee, recorded in his notebook that on thursday the 19th of march the same day in fact is those communications, you said we

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