at the time. but we hear that the decisions he made, there is nothing he can say to you that can improve things. what would you like him to say? things. what would you like him to sa ? �* , ., , things. what would you like him to sa ? �* , . , ., things. what would you like him to sa? say? anything he has to say could have been said _ say? anything he has to say could have been said a _ say? anything he has to say could have been said a long _ say? anything he has to say could have been said a long time - say? anything he has to say could have been said a long time ago i say? anything he has to say could l have been said a long time ago that we are nearly four years since the beginning of the pandemic. it is continuing, people are continuing to die every week. i don't think he has got anything helpful to say at this point other than to tell the truth about why decisions were made and why failures happen in the kale that was at the heart of his government. do you think he can be useful as the inquiry tries to learn lessons, to make sure that should there be another pandemic, mistakes like this are not made again? i’m another pandemic, mistakes like this are not made again?— are not made again? i'm sure he could be useful, _ are not made again? i'm sure he could be useful, whether- are not made again? i'm sure he could be useful, whether he - are not made again? i'm sure he could be useful, whether he will| are not made again? i'm sure he . could be useful, whether he will be, i don't know. it is unfortunate none of his messages have been discoverable, that's a big failure. we should be able to see and hear everything going on within government at that time. thank you for our government at that time. thank you fervourtime- _ government at that time. thank you fervourtime- i _ government at that time. thank you for your time. i assume _ government at that time. thank you for your time. i assume you - government at that time. thank you for your time. i assume you will- government at that time. thank you for your time. i assume you will be i for your time. i assume you will be catching up, another day of evidence after this, will you continue to come to be here while borisjohnson is giving evidence? yes. come to be here while boris johnson is giving evidence?— is giving evidence? yes, we will be here, is giving evidence? yes, we will be here. don't — is giving evidence? yes, we will be here, don't know _ is giving evidence? yes, we will be here, don't know if _ is giving evidence? yes, we will be here, don't know if we _ is giving evidence? yes, we will be here, don't know if we will - is giving evidence? yes, we will be here, don't know if we will be - here, don't know if we will be allowed in but we will be outside. thank you. that was fran who was one of the protesters who was inside the inquiry room today, she felt, she along with a number of protesters built and they needed to stand up, hold pictures of their loved ones, to present to the prime minister, former prime minister, how they felt about borisjohnson and he... decisions he made that impacted on their lives. other important members we heard this morning were boris johnson talking about the gender balance within his top team. and how he felt when he was mayor of london he felt when he was mayor of london he felt when he was mayor of london he felt he had a gender balance of about 5050, in downing street he said there is too often male dominated in his team and it had an impact on a number of the decisions that were made. he also appeared to her defend his health secretary matt hancock, we have heard plenty of evidence on the past weeks about how matt hancock had been, some people accused have come of lying and under delivering, borisjohnson today seemed to say, to defend the health secretary and said he had been a good communicator and always worked hard. we have heard from fran, earlier i spoke to another couple of protesters who were also here to listen to borisjohnson's evidence. i caught covid in march 2020, pre—selected for the olympics, my career is over. i have had to retire and i'm here to represent the 1.9 million people in the uk that also are suffering with this disease. what does it lean for you to icb here? you have travelled down here, come off as they won't get to speak to borisjohnson but you felt come off as they won't get to speak to boris johnson but you felt you needed to witness it? yeah, watching it on tv and living the experience of it and watching it commit very dissociating experience. boris johnson has _ dissociating experience. boris johnson hasjust _ dissociating experience. boris johnson hasjust seemed - dissociating experience. boris johnson hasjust seemed to l dissociating experience. err" 3 johnson hasjust seemed to be completely oblivious to the damage that this virus has done. i want to just see what he has to say for himself, to see him in person and it will be an interesting experience. talking through your experience, it is not as yours, that'll be a daughter as well.— is not as yours, that'll be a dau~hter as well. , ., daughter as well. both my daughter and i daughter as well. both my daughter andi not daughter as well. both my daughter and i got covid _ daughter as well. both my daughter and i got covid in _ daughter as well. both my daughter and i got covid in march _ daughter as well. both my daughter and i got covid in march 2020 - daughter as well. both my daughter and i got covid in march 2020 and l and i got covid in march 2020 and now living — and i got covid in march 2020 and now living with disability, pc fit and healthy and strong. i have not been _ and healthy and strong. i have not been able — and healthy and strong. i have not been able to return to work as a health_ been able to return to work as a health coach and she has not been able to— health coach and she has not been able to continue with her studies. missed _ able to continue with her studies. missed two years of education. we setup _ missed two years of education. we setup a _ missed two years of education. we set up a charity and we represent 62.000 — set up a charity and we represent 62,000 children living in the uk with long — 62,000 children living in the uk with long covid, who are experiencing it. with long covid, who are ex-aeriencin it. , .. _ , experiencing it. obviously boris johnson initially _ experiencing it. obviously boris johnson initially we _ experiencing it. obviously boris johnson initially we had - experiencing it. obviously boris johnson initially we had as - experiencing it. obviously boris johnson initially we had as part| experiencing it. obviously boris l johnson initially we had as part of the evidence at the inquiry didn't seem to take long covid very seriously, i won't use the word that we have heard that he said about long covid because i couldn't mention it on the television, but the feeling was it simply wasn't taken seriously early enough. exactly right, and that has been our experience — exactly right, and that has been our experience throughout, the advocacy we have _ experience throughout, the advocacy we have done over the last three years. _ we have done over the last three years. that — we have done over the last three years, that long covid hasn't been to confuse — years, that long covid hasn't been to confuse a commit never featured on the _ to confuse a commit never featured on the dashboard, not mentioned in briefings. _ on the dashboard, not mentioned in briefings, and it is a serious consequence of the pandemic. one of a number of — consequence of the pandemic. one of a number of issues _ consequence of the pandemic. one of a number of issues he _ consequence of the pandemic. one of a number of issues he will _ consequence of the pandemic. one of a number of issues he will no - consequence of the pandemic. one of a number of issues he will no doubt i a number of issues he will no doubt be questioned about over the next couple of days. do you have an open mind? we already know that he is likely to apologise today stop do you have an open mind that he might change your mind, he was only human, politicians are only human? flat change your mind, he was only human, politicians are only human?— politicians are only human? not sure about that! and _ politicians are only human? not sure about that! and we'll— politicians are only human? not sure about that! and we'll see _ politicians are only human? not sure about that! and we'll see what - politicians are only human? not sure about that! and we'll see what his i about that! and we'll see what his responses are but fundamentally the uk along with the us and brazil, brazil have had the worst pandemic response, spent more money, we spent longer in lockdown, more deaths, we don't have statistics along covid but we know it is bad. looking after the lives of the nation is the primary responsibility, the basic responsibility of our leaders. he continuously put his ego and self—interest ahead of that. this is one of the tools of the state we have to get some accountability and we really hope to see that today. i was meant to say to you, i apologise for some of the language be broadcast earlier, the decision was made to broadcast this inquiry live, there is a three minute delay but some of the language used from the whatsapp messages, some of it has been rather choice and fruity at times. we apologise for that. i think we canjoin our times. we apologise for that. i think we can join our political correspondence rob watson. i wanted to ask you, this is obviously a very political day, borisjohnson is no longer prime minister, but some insight into the politics at the time and westminster at the time. absolutely, i happen abstract by two things, i am absolutely, i happen abstract by two things, iam mindfulwe absolutely, i happen abstract by two things, i am mindful we will not need to be shutting up at any in rather demure but also utterly defiant in the sense that he is insisting that based on what we knew at the time the government did its best, did its best to protect lives and the nhs. secondly he is also defined in his defence of his style of government. we have had all these rather fruity whatsapp messages indicating astonishing tension, bad language, and real grief at the heart of his government. but he has said, this is because people were under stress, they were trying to work hard, of course they would be critical of each other and some of the mine which was going to be choice. that has happened and other governments, it is because we were doing our best. you can see in that is the overall shape of things, this idea of demure but defiant and determined to defend his record. touching on the folk you had with you, i suspect in terms of the broader public relations that with this inquiry those who have made up their minds, that putsjohnson is both incompetent, untrustworthy and in many ways, as they would see it, rather unpleasant, none of what he says will change their minds. that rather large chunk, a large minority in this country take the view of good old boris, he did asbestos he could in difficult circumstances, they will not change their view either. we will wait and see. —— needed as best as he could. the chair of the _ needed as best as he could. the chair of the inquiry has said a couple of times last week that she did not want to proportion any personal blame to anyone and was not interested in what she called the tittle tattle and indeed all the swearing. i think they can go back to the inquiry where there may well be somewhat titl title and indeed some more swearing, apologies in advance. to some more swearing, apologies in advance. .. some more swearing, apologies in advance. ., , , advance. to boot this in its chronological _ advance. to boot this in its chronological place, - advance. to boot this in its chronological place, the i advance. to boot this in its i chronological place, the first advance. to boot this in its - chronological place, the first sage had taken place injanuary, the first cobra in the 24th, he says however in his witness statement that he called you directly on at least four occasions during january to impress upon you his concerns. although he does not say so, the implication is is that he was at pains to alert you to the problems he saw and was required to raise the matter with you repeatedly. do you recall a repeated number of attempts to raise the alarm with you in that way? i to raise the alarm with you in that wa ? . . , way? i certainly recall the conversation _ way? i certainly recall the conversation on _ way? i certainly recall the conversation on the i way? i certainly recall the conversation on the 7th . way? i certainly recall the| conversation on the 7th of way? i certainly recall the - conversation on the 7th of january, and the context, i remember thinking about it and saying, keep an eye on it, and i said out in my statement my initial instinct about it. i don't, to be frank, remember all those conversations but it is too that we would have spoken many occasions because we generally spoke quite a lot. i think that in that period, january really to the end of february, towards the end of february, towards the end of february, covid was pretty much like a cloud on the horizon no bigger than a man because my hand and you didn't really know whether it would turn into a typhoon or not. and i certainly didn't. i was unsure. it became clear much later. the matter was first raised _ became clear much later. the matter was first raised with _ became clear much later. the matter was first raised with your _ became clear much later. the matter was first raised with your cabinet i was first raised with your cabinet secretary, formally on the 21st of january, which was the date of the world health organization first novel coronavirus situation report. do you recall when the matter was first brought officially to your attention? you were always the away from news reports and you would have been away from conversations with mr hancock as to the possible crisis or emergency of this virus in china, but when officially you recall it was put before you? i’m but when officially you recall it was put before you?— but when officially you recall it was put before you? i'm sure it is in my comment — was put before you? i'm sure it is in my comment what _ was put before you? i'm sure it is in my comment what i've - was put before you? i'm sure it is i in my comment what i've submitted. i think it would be, certainly there are cabinet discussions injanuary and in february, and a crescendo activity about it. but in government, it wasn't yet being escalated to me as something of really truly national concern. indeed. at cobra was convened, chaired by mr hancock the 24th of january. then he chaired after the cobra meeting on the 29th of january then the fifth of favourite, 18th and fabio, 26 february. it is playing that was permissible. this cobra doesn't have to be chaired by a power minister. but the sheer frequency of those cobras, five within one month, all on the same issue of this emerging virus. didn't the seriousness of the position in late january make itself planed to you worth how could there have been a need for a cobra every week for five weeks in relation to energy that didn't require your direct involvement as a prime minister? for the reason you have given wages that a cobra is a regular occurrence in government when there is something, particular government department is leading on, in this case it was health. the possibility of a coronavirus pandemic, which was only declared by the who on the 12th of march, was not something that had yet, had it really broken upon the political world in my consciousness. as something of real potential, a real potential national disaster. in that period, end ofjanuary, beginning of february, it is not much in the political world. i wasn't asked about it at all at pmqs. ~ , .. wasn't asked about it at all at pmqs. ~ , ., ., ., wasn't asked about it at all at pmqs. ~ ., ., ., ~ pmqs. were you even aware that mr hancock was — pmqs. were you even aware that mr hancock was chairing _ pmqs. were you even aware that mr hancock was chairing cobras - pmqs. were you even aware that mr hancock was chairing cobras to i pmqs. were you even aware that mr hancock was chairing cobras to deal| hancock was chairing cobras to deal with a new and emerging respiratory virus on those fine dates? i with a new and emerging respiratory virus on those fine dates?— virus on those fine dates? i think that i virus on those fine dates? i think that i was — virus on those fine dates? i think that i was aware _ virus on those fine dates? i think that i was aware that _ virus on those fine dates? i think that i was aware that matt i virus on those fine dates? i think that i was aware that matt was i that i was aware that matt was handling it, i couldn't swear that i was aware that he was handling it in that way on those particular dates. my that way on those particular dates. my instructions to him were to keep me posted and i would do whatever i could. but by the end of the month, clearly by the end of february, and i am getting anxious about what we're doing. we i am getting anxious about what we're doing-— i am getting anxious about what we're doing. i am getting anxious about what we're doinu. ~ we're doing. we will come there. do ou recall we're doing. we will come there. do you recall having _ we're doing. we will come there. do you recall having any _ we're doing. we will come there. do you recall having any debate - we're doing. we will come there. do you recall having any debate with i you recall having any debate with your advices as to whether or not your advices as to whether or not you should be chairing those cobras are whether or not the seriousness of the position required to you to chair the cobras at the end of january and throughout february? yes, i think there is an exchange... i remember talking to my private office and saying, you know, this is clearly becoming an issue of national... clearly becoming an issue of national. . ._ clearly becoming an issue of national... ., , �* ., national... 24th of february. before that date, national. .. 24th of february. before that date. for— national... 24th of february. before that date, for the _ national... 24th of february. before that date, for the month _ national... 24th of february. before l that date, for the month beforehand, did you think to say to your officials, the secretary of state for health is chairing a cobra on a weekly basis to do with a fatal viral pandemic, which currently is...? it viral pandemic, which currently is. . . ? . , viral pandemic, which currently is...? . , . ., viral pandemic, which currently is...? . , .. ., is. . . ? it had it been declared a pandemic- _ is. . . ? it had it been declared a pandemic. but _ is. . . ? it had it been declared a pandemic. but by _ is. . . ? it had it been declared a pandemic. but by the - is. . . ? it had it been declared a pandemic. but by the 16th i is. . . ? it had it been declared a pandemic. but by the 16th of l is. . . ? it had it been declared a i pandemic. but by the 16th of january it had spread — pandemic. but by the 16th of january it had spread to _ pandemic. but by the 16th of january it had spread to thailand _ pandemic. but by the 16th of january it had spread to thailand and - pandemic. but by the 16th of january it had spread to thailand and japan, | it had spread to thailand and japan, the scientists in the uk had reported on the 12% hospitalisation rate, it was clear from the material in government that only a small fraction of the infections in wuhan were being detected and there was already evidence of limited human—to—human transmission of buy the 17th of january. human—to—human trans