covid and therefore tough measures to keep r below one but also required more research and support from the nhs who found it quite difficult because it was a new disease and because of its nature presenting in many different ways, they found that long tarmac difficult to categorise at first and so with simon stephens will work together to bring forward clinics that could look across the range of conditions that are mostly gathered under the term long covid. i cared a lot about this for personal reasons as well as professional. we did not need to sign off from the centre, we just got on with it. do you happen to know, notwithstanding the early days of 2020, the campaign about long covid wasn't launched until october, do you know why there was that potential lag in the communication side of the debate?— side of the debate? yes, i think it was essentially _ side of the debate? yes, i think it was essentially bleak, _ was essentially bleak, understandably the clinicians found it hard to get a handle on exactly what the term meant a first. i knew what the term meant a first. i knew what it meant and those suffering from it knew what it meant. but turning that into a formal protocol would normally have taken a lot longer, but it was one of those things that happened, some months for the clinicians to put it together. i think we decided to do that, itjune orjuly 2020 at the roundtable meeting you mentioned? the 31stjuly, yes. b�*ist roundtable meeting you mentioned? the 31stjuly. yes-— the 31st july, yes. 31st ofjuly, which i convene. _ the 31st july, yes. 31st ofjuly, which i convene. it _ the 31st july, yes. 31st ofjuly, which i convene. it was - the 31st july, yes. 31st ofjuly, which i convene. it was put - the 31st july, yes. 31st ofjuly, which i convene. it was put in | which i convene. it was put in around six weeks from then. although that looks low in the context of the pandemic, that is fast in the normal context of medical response to innovative problems. particularly the ublic innovative problems. particularly the public facing _ innovative problems. particularly the public facing side? _ innovative problems. particularly the public facing side? yes, - the public facing side? yes, clinicians, _ the public facing side? yes, clinicians, understandably, | the public facing side? 1&1: clinicians, understandably, wanted an answer to the question, what exactly is long covid before they would go out and say, we are having a campaign on this. that was a piece of work, of course i wish it had gone faster and i was pushing it, but nevertheless i can understand the reasons why it took as long as it did. ., , the reasons why it took as long as it did. . , ., ., ., it did. finally, in relation to disparities, _ it did. finally, in relation to disparities, your— it did. finally, in relation to disparities, your witness i it did. finally, in relation to - disparities, your witness statement makes plain that you are obviously aware from a very early stage on the clinical vulnerabilities of disparities from coronavirus i9? disparities from coronavirus 19? yes. ., ., ., ., yes. you were aware of the risk factors from _ yes. you were aware of the risk factors from an _ yes. you were aware of the risk factors from an early _ yes. you were aware of the risk factors from an early stage - yes. you were aware of the risk factors from an early stage and| yes. you were aware of the risk - factors from an early stage and you explain how he became aware of the terrible figures showing disproportionate numbers of black people and black minority ethnic health care workers being hospitalised and often dying? yes. you contributed _ hospitalised and often dying? yes. you contributed to _ hospitalised and often dying? 133 you contributed to the process which sage and other bodies looked at this issue. did you also commission work through public health england, there was a rapid review, ithink through public health england, there was a rapid review, i think on the 12th of may, then a full review on the 31st of may and then did you also contributed the decision that further work and the reports be ultimately commissioned to kemi badenoch? . ultimately commissioned to kemi badenoch? , ., , ultimately commissioned to kemi badenoch? , . ., , badenoch? yes, i was particularly struck by the _ badenoch? yes, i was particularly struck by the death _ badenoch? yes, i was particularly struck by the death of _ badenoch? yes, i was particularly struck by the death of the - badenoch? yes, i was particularly struck by the death of the first. struck by the death of the first four nhs doctors, three of whom were from an ethnic minority background. i was acutely aware of the disproportionate impact on those from ethnic minority backgrounds, especially amongst the wider nhs workforce as well, notjust the doctors and nurses, but more broadly, including porters and other staff who do vital work and often are very closely in contact with patients. so this was something i was worried about from early in the pandemic. in fact, worked on this before the pandemic, including raising the issues of discrimination within the nhs and there was work under way on a particularly difficult issue that came up in nhs bt. i was aware of it from the start and i was very glad when kemi badenoch was tasked by the prime minister to lead and really get to the bottom of this. my minister to lead and really get to the bottom of this.— minister to lead and really get to the bottom of this. my lady, those are all my questions _ the bottom of this. my lady, those are all my questions for _ the bottom of this. my lady, those are all my questions for mr - the bottom of this. my lady, those i are all my questions for mr hancock. thank you very much. are you going first? _ thank you, my lady. mr hancock, i ask questions in behalf of covid bereaved families forjustice uk and northern ireland, who sit behind me and we represent over 7000 bereaved families. bereaved by covid. many who sit behind me and many who have lost families in care homes. so my questions are sent at high level on the decision on the 19th of march to discharge untested hospital patient into those care homes. yesterday, he accepted in evidence that on the 15th of may 2020, at a press conference he said that right from the start, we try to throw protective ring around care homes. the context of my questions is to probe with you, your claim you had taken the steps right from the start or at all. . i taken the steps right from the start or at all. yes. i will take you through _ or at all. yes. i will take you through some _ or at all. yes. i will take you through some of _ or at all. yes. i will take you through some of the - or at all. yes. i will take you through some of the key - or at all. yes i will take you through some of the key dates or at all. 1e3 i will take you through some of the key dates at the start of the pandemic and examine what was known or ought to have been known by you and your department and how that informed the decisions that were made on the 19th of march. ok. can we first on—screen, page two. this is the minutes of adult social care coronavirus meeting. thank you. it is action three, please. thank you very much. thank you. it says it was noted at .7, the 11th of february 2020. commented they were likely to be three ways the virus can enter a care home, infected people moving into homes, staff and visitors. that should be considered during the response phase. yes. what was done to — during the response phase. 13:3 what was done to minimise those three different routes of infection prior to the hospital discharge policy on the 19th of march? this to the hospital discharge policy on the 19th of march?— to the hospital discharge policy on the 19th of march? this document is from the 11th — the 19th of march? this document is from the 11th of— the 19th of march? this document is from the 11th of february. _ the 19th of march? this document is from the 11th of february. correct. i from the 11th of february. correct. in context. _ from the 11th of february. correct. in context, there _ from the 11th of february. correct. in context, there were _ from the 11th of february. correct. in context, there were under - from the 11th of february. correct. in context, there were under five l in context, there were under five cases in the uk at that point, it was early on and how we were going to handle the pandemic. it was clear from this point that the virus had its biggest impact on those who are older and had underlying vulnerabilities. we knew there was a problem and we knew there was a significant and specific risk for those who lived in care homes and in particular, care homes that looked after older people. find particular, care homes that looked after older people.— after older people. and in particular— after older people. and in particular these _ after older people. and in particular these three - after older people. and in l particular these three ways after older people. and in - particular these three ways present three potential breaks to any circle any ring of care, is that fair to say? any ring of care, is that fair to sa ? . any ring of care, is that fair to sa ? , ., , , ., , ~ any ring of care, is that fair to sa? , y~ say? yes, absolutely. we considered these throughout, _ say? yes, absolutely. we considered these throughout, in _ say? yes, absolutely. we considered these throughout, in terms - say? yes, absolutely. we considered these throughout, in terms of- say? yes, absolutely. we considered these throughout, in terms of how i say? yes, absolutely. we considered| these throughout, in terms of how we could better support and protect people in care homes. in fact, their work had already started before this and we had the first adult social care national steering group for instance, on the 5th of february. i will come back to some of those steering group minutes later. can we have on the screen, the next paper on page two. this is the 24th of february now. this is a response to a question that has been proposed to them if there is an evidence of a cluster of covid—i9 cases in the uk, what would the phe proposal be? if there is an assumed outbreak of five to 25 cases, phe advises that no discharges be made from hospitals to care homes whilst there is a cluster of cases in the hospital during the containment phase. a little further down, in terms of the highlight. can the highlight be expanded lower down, please? it is in the middle, that paragraph. no discharge to residential care homes. on the 24th of february 2020, the phe are making it clear there should be no discharge to care homes because of the risk of infections that will create, is that correct? i didn't see this document. _ create, is that correct? i didn't see this document. not - create, is that correct? i didn't see this document. not at - create, is that correct? i didn't see this document. not at the | create, is that correct? i didn't - see this document. not at the time. but my reading of the document as you have presented it to me is that in the case of an outbreak in the care home, then there should be no discharges to that care home. that is my reading of it. but this is a phe document that i wasn't aware of. it is as it is, the evidence is there. . 1' it is as it is, the evidence is there. . ~' it is as it is, the evidence is there. ., ~ ., ., ., there. thank you. you have mentioned there. thank you. you have mentioned the national — there. thank you. you have mentioned the national steering _ there. thank you. you have mentioned the national steering group _ the national steering group meetings, they took place in february, the 19th and 26th of february, the 19th and 26th of february, they have been expressing serious concerns about the availability of tpe in care homes, in particular we can go to them if you would like to, but on the 26th of february, there was hard evidence of february, there was hard evidence of ppe stock being requisitioned for nhs use, is that correct? i am of ppe stock being requisitioned for nhs use, is that correct?— nhs use, is that correct? i am not aware of that. _ nhs use, is that correct? i am not aware of that, but _ nhs use, is that correct? i am not aware of that, but if _ nhs use, is that correct? i am not aware of that, but if you _ nhs use, is that correct? i am not aware of that, but if you want - nhs use, is that correct? i am not aware of that, but if you want to i aware of that, but if you want to put of evidence showing that. what i would say is that on ppe, it was obvious from january there was going to be a problem with ppe. at the end ofjanuary, i agreed to to be a problem with ppe. at the end of january, i agreed to the recommendation that we should release the ppe stockpile and i also requested that we started buying ppe in size. as an in large scale, which we did. it was a global challenge, because suddenly everywhere in the world was trying to buy ppe. also, there is another structural point, which is care homes and all social care is legally responsible to local authorities and is commissioned by local authorities and there is a structural problem, which is that the responsibility and policy questions inevitably, especially in a crisis flow to the national government, but the levers, the policy, the formal policy and all of the legals are in the hands of local government and so we started this with the social care sector in need of reform, where the reforms hadn't happened and the formal legal responsibility was for local authorities. i responsibility was for local authorities.— responsibility was for local authorities. , ., ., , authorities. i understand that, but what i'm asking — authorities. i understand that, but what i'm asking about _ authorities. i understand that, but what i'm asking about is _ authorities. i understand that, but what i'm asking about is what - authorities. i understand that, but what i'm asking about is what is i what i'm asking about is what is known by your department about methods and equipment that could keep care home resident safe, in terms of how you then set your policy and what you dictate should happen. so let's look at the steering group minutes together. specifically on this point about the nhs requisitioned. page two again and the top action on page two. action. concerns about nhs iii and hard evidence provided failing to get phe they paid for as it's requisitioned for the nhs. don't need to dig too deep beneath this in terms of logistical matters but it is clear the department is aware from stakeholders they are not only concerned about ppe but getting what they have paid for? that concerned about ppe but getting what they have paid for?— they have paid for? that is what it sa s. they have paid for? that is what it says- thank _ they have paid for? that is what it says. thank you. _ they have paid for? that is what it says. thank you. at _ they have paid for? that is what it says. thank you. at the _ they have paid for? that is what it says. thank you. at the end - they have paid for? that is what it says. thank you. at the end of. says. thank you. at the end of february. _ says. thank you. at the end of february, that _ says. thank you. at the end of february, that is _ says. thank you. at the end of february, that is the _ says. thank you. at the end of february, that is the 26th - says. thank you. at the end of february, that is the 26th of i february, that is the 26th of february, that is the 26th of february, it suggest it is obvious for your department that care homes where a venerable population, i think you have agreed with that... absolutely, yes.— absolutely, yes. with multiple sources of _ absolutely, yes. with multiple sources of infection, _ absolutely, yes. with multiple sources of infection, you - absolutely, yes. with multiple sources of infection, you have| sources of infection, you have agreed with that and real problems, i suggest, with obtaining ppe? would you agree? i suggest, with obtaining ppe? would ou auree? . i suggest, with obtaining ppe? would you agree? yes. moving into march. we told mr— you agree? 133 moving into march. we told mr keith yesterday that helen whately had come to the very firm view on or around the second that plans for the care sector were nonexistent or inadequate, your words, and she was messaging about that. in early march, she also had concerns, she says in her statement about the inability to obtain timely and accurate data about covid—i9 deaths in the care home sector. in stark contrast to the data available in the health care setting. absolutely, yes.— in the health care setting. absolutely, yes. in the health care setting. absolutel , es. ~ ., ., absolutely, yes. what was done, if an hinu absolutely, yes. what was done, if anything in — absolutely, yes. what was done, if anything in early — absolutely, yes. what was done, if anything in early march _ absolutely, yes. what was done, if anything in early march to - absolutely, yes. what was done, if anything in early march to rectify i anything in early march to rectify this lack of data? we anything in early march to rectify this lack of data?— anything in early march to rectify this lack of data? we acted to try to make sure _ this lack of data? we acted to try to make sure that _ this lack of data? we acted to try to make sure that ppe _ this lack of data? we acted to try to make sure that ppe got - this lack of data? we acted to try to make sure that ppe got to - this lack of data? we acted to try | to make sure that ppe got to care homes and took action on that front. not least responding to the concerns that had been raised by the sector and in terms of data, gathering data was extremely difficult because of the lack of a direct relationship, contractual relationship between the department and care homes. unlike the department's direct relationship with the nhs. tqm. the department's direct relationship with the nhs-— with the nhs. 0k, touching on ppe auain, ou with the nhs. 0k, touching on ppe again. you said _ with the nhs. 0k, touching on ppe again, you said in _ with the nhs. 0k, touching on ppe again, you said in your _ with the nhs. 0k, touching on ppe again, you said in your statement | with the nhs. 0k, touching on ppei again, you said in your statement on the 5th of march, helen whately continued to warn that ppe provision in care homes was inadequate? yes. in care homes was inadequate? yes, she was very — in care homes was inadequate? yes, she was very worried _ in care homes was inadequate? 133 she was very worried about it. she met the chief social worker on the 4th met the chief social worker on the ltth of march as well to discuss the concerns around the preparations in care homes. what this all demonstrates is as much action as possible from the top of the department to try to solve these problems, which ultimately started with the structural make up of social care, which is a decision that can trace its origins back to the foundation of the nhs in 19118. as we will see later from another document, ppe was only sent out to care homes on or around the 19th of march, the same day discharge of thousands of patients was ordered. i will come back to that. chronologically moving forward to the 6th of march, you open the departmental meeting of social care. can we have that on the screen please. it is page one, the first bullet point, please. thank you. secretary of state opens the meeting ijy secretary of state opens the meeting by stating the impact of coronavirus which poses a complicated set of problems on the social care sector, due to the higher risk for older people and the need to be gripped as soon as possible. what people and the need to be gripped as soon as possible.— soon as possible. what this and the cast list demonstrate _ soon as poss