people certainly being handed over. you can see a bank of ambulances. an elderly womanjust being you can see a bank of ambulances. an elderly woman just being delicately walked out as some of these transfers continue thereat rafah. so many different points in this choreography before they ultimately get back to israel and the israeli authorities have that news conference they were talking about to confirm the various transfers, but a little glimpse perhaps of one of the people that were contained in those red cross convoy in ambulances earlier as we see shots both from the air and ground. we will continue with these pictures, but as we continue to watch them, let's bring in gideon leavey, an israeli author and journalist. thank you very much for being here and being on the programme. your headline thoughts as we hear some of the thoughts and details of this hostage release. very mixed feelings, all kind of thoughts. fin feelings, all kind of thoughts. on one hand, one cannot remain indifferent to see those hostages coming back. you will also not remain indifferent to the fact that a deal is a deal, which should not be taken for granted. let's cross our fingers that until now, a deal is a deal and hamas and israel are going along the details that were agreed. this is a very encouraging fact, but wejust agreed. this is a very encouraging fact, but we just remember that it is a drop in the ocean because 13 israelis were released tonight, there are still over 200 in the hands of hamas and the journey is still very long to go. d0 hands of hamas and the “ourney is still very long to go.— still very long to go. do you think, in any way. _ still very long to go. do you think, in any way. it _ still very long to go. do you think, in any way, it changes _ still very long to go. do you think, in any way, it changes the - still very long to go. do you think, in any way, it changes the basic. in any way, it changes the basic dynamic of the war, that we are having this pause, this prisoner exchange, and this prisoner release? does fundamentally change, do think, where it opinion is, let's start there? it where it opinion is, let's start there? , ., , . i. there? it is inevitable. once you see that both _ there? it is inevitable. once you see that both parties, _ there? it is inevitable. once you see that both parties, even - there? it is inevitable. once you i see that both parties, even though they do not negotiate directly, both parties can get to any kind of an agreement, this puts you any question, why can they not get to broader agreements are not only about releasing a dozen of hostages and 50 prisoners, why can't they get to a broader agreementit change the dynamics. underthe to a broader agreementit change the dynamics. under the more releases there will be, the more this will change. but by the end of the day, i still feel the israeli public opinion is demanding what will come after hamas? to the next days will be very crucial and mixed on the way in one hand you can be with some kind of hope and on the other, you know, the war is still going on. find know, the war is still going on. and we not an know, the war is still going on. and we got an earlier statement from israel's defence minister who said there would be a short pause, then they will return to the war with full military force. what do you think it is likely to happen after day four of this questioning i cannot see it getting back in at the same intensity, the war.— same intensity, the war. namely i ho -e it same intensity, the war. namely i hepe it will— same intensity, the war. namely i hope it will not _ same intensity, the war. namely i hope it will not get _ same intensity, the war. namely i hope it will not get back _ same intensity, the war. namely i hope it will not get back to - same intensity, the war. namely i hope it will not get back to the - hope it will not get back to the same intensity. because what does it mean now to continue the work was to make it means israel will now go to the southern part of the gaza strip were right now over 2 million people are concentrated there. in terrible conditions. you pull out1 million people from the north and push them to the south and now you want to declare war on the south? where will those people go and what will happen to them? and how can you really go for a war when there are so many civilians, most of them homeless around? so i don't see it happening in the same intensity. 50m; around? so i don't see it happening in the same intensity.— in the same intensity. sorry to cut in, but that _ in the same intensity. sorry to cut in, but that if— in the same intensity. sorry to cut in, but that if you _ in the same intensity. sorry to cut in, but that if you have _ in the same intensity. sorry to cut in, but that if you have just - in, but that if you have just articulated, you know it is exactly the polar opposite of what benjamin netanyahu and they were cabinet are saying. do you get any sense that is likely to change from the prime minister downwards? the declaration is one thing. — minister downwards? the declaration is one thing, especially _ minister downwards? the declaration is one thing, especially in _ minister downwards? the declaration is one thing, especially in israeli - is one thing, especially in israeli politics, especially when it relates to benjamin netanyahu, the reality is something else. there is the world, the united states, there is at the reality on the ground, the atmosphere. let's see. i mean, they declared because they are a very right—wing government that has to guarantee that israel does not stop now because stopping now means not achieving the main goal of this war, mainly crashing hamas. the pictures we see just now that show you that hamas is far from we see just now that show you that hamas is farfrom being crashed. hamas is farfrom being crashed. hamas is farfrom being crashed. hamas is operating this exchange now. so it is not an easyjob on one hand to get a decision, a resolution to go for the deal and on the other hand, to claim that you're crashing hamas. something will continue, but i do not think it will be the same intensity because something on the momentum and dynamics was broken now and i hope it will go on breaking this dynamic of destruction in gaza, this dynamic of destruction in gaza, this dynamic of smashing not only hamas, but the whole gaza strip. tote hamas, but the whole gaza strip. we have two different statements from benjamin netanyahu in recent days, one that the objective remains the strong hamas. the other is his determination to get back all of the hostages, notjust the initial 50. does it make sense to you? can you have the objective of having all the hostages back when you're hoping to negotiate with the people you say you're going to destroy? ba; negotiate with the people you say you're going to destroy?- you're going to destroy? by the cuestion, you're going to destroy? by the question. you _ you're going to destroy? by the question, you know— you're going to destroy? by the question, you know the - you're going to destroy? by the | question, you know the answer. you're going to destroy? by the - question, you know the answer. there will be a certain stage in which the choice really has to be made. imagine yourself you're standing in front of a tunnel where the rest of the hostages, mainly the soldiers are being held together with the commanders of hamas. what do you do then? you have to make the choice in a very physical term. you have to choose either you bomb a bunker or you let the hostages get out and you give out bombing this bunker. israel will have to choose between release of all the hostages and slashing her mass. i think public opinion right now is very strong about releasing all the hostages, but it may also be that after releasing all the hostages, israel will go on and if the international community will not stop israel, it might also go on and destroy southern gaza as well as you talk to us, we are watching the live pictures coming in from egypt. tote pictures coming in from egypt. we are seeing the early stages of some of the people have been held being transferred from ambulances to buses, a huge number of ambulances lined up. one by one we are seeing people step out and be delicately transported as the stage by stage transfer of the release actually plays out. these are the pictures from just a few minutes ago when that convoy arrived there. and this is a process taking a number of hours and that is, in a sense, to be expected because it was such a complicated deal to put into effect, but also a complicated deal to execute and carry off, because huge numbers of safeguards being put in place by both sides because as well as the demands from israel, there where the demands from hamas, things like the intelligence, use of drones being turned off for a six—hour period so they could these hostages around and bring them to the point where they handed them over to the red cross. all of that they wanted to do without those drones obviously accessing that and deriving large amounts of intelligence. all that has meticulously been gone through and perhaps explains why this deal has taken time to thrash out, but it is such a significant moment there is such a significant moment there is the first day of the hostage handover. and of course, with this in the backdrop, a pause in the seven—week warforfour in the backdrop, a pause in the seven—week war for four days and that has given people a chance, we have seen it in the south, for people to move around, get back to some of their houses, see the enormity of the destruction and we saw israel dropping leaflets in the south telling people not to go back to the north because they consider it a war zone. as we watch these pictures of the transfer, all the focus there, but a wider study that there is a pause in this war, where we approach the seven—week mark, a crucial moment because for seven weeks, it has raged and we have seen the death toll increase as israel responded to those attacks on october 7th. their objective, as we were saying there are no conversations with gideon leavey, to destroy hamas. —— gideon. let me bring gideon back in. i was talking at the start of the week to a guest who said it was not time to start talking about a two state solution, but said the focus had to come round to that in the end for the international community and israel's best interests.— best interests. fortunately unfortunately, _ best interests. fortunately unfortunately, he - best interests. fortunately unfortunately, he is - best interests. fortunately unfortunately, he is not i best interests. fortunatelyj unfortunately, he is not on best interests. fortunately - unfortunately, he is not on nearby minister right now and that fortunately or unfortunately, do not see it happening. with all the respect to the declarations you do not have a partner in the israeli side right now, you do not have a partner in the palestinian side. emotions are very high now in both people's. and above all, the united states is getting into a year of elections in which i'm not sure the focus will be on the middle east. i do not see the parties being capable at all to start negotiating any kind of settlement without a massive international intervention and, unfortunately, do not see this massive international intervention taking place when the united states is on hold and that the eu is just a pale echo of the united states. so who is going to run it, exactly? i wish i could think differently, but i'm afraid it is too good to be true. , ., , ., ~ i. i'm afraid it is too good to be true. , ., , ., ~ ., true. gideon levy, thank you for bein: on true. gideon levy, thank you for being on the _ true. gideon levy, thank you for being on the programme. - true. gideon levy, thank you for being on the programme. we i true. gideon levy, thank you for - being on the programme. we continue to watch those pictures from the rafah crossing and i take you back to the ofer prison, confirmation from the qataris that 39 women and children detained in israeli jails have been released as part of this agreement between israel and hamas. let's speak to noor odeh, a palestinian journalist and activist. your assessment of what you have seen take place in the last couple of hours? it seen take place in the last couple of hours? . , , seen take place in the last couple of hours? ., , , ., seen take place in the last couple of hours? .,, , ., , of hours? it has been a very bittersweet _ of hours? it has been a very bittersweet day, _ of hours? it has been a very bittersweet day, as - of hours? it has been a very bittersweet day, as you - of hours? it has been a very bittersweet day, as you will| of hours? it has been a very i bittersweet day, as you will -- of hours? it has been a very - bittersweet day, as you will -- if bittersweet day, as you will —— if you will. you saw thousands of people in gaza, on the one hand, try to wake up from seven weeks of bombardment, trying to get in touch with family members they had lost touch with. some attempting to visit the site of their homes to see if anything is left to mourn and grieve over all that loss. and to understand, as you were saying earlier, the enormity of all that loss. on the other, you have families here in the west bank waiting to receive their loved ones and anxious and wanting the hours to pass by so they can receive them. while at the same time receiving threats from the israeli security establishment that they are not allowed to celebrate those releases. so the reality of occupation, of course, still breathing down everybody�*s neck, if you will. yes. everybody's neck, if you will. yes, we saw pictures — everybody's neck, if you will. yes, we saw pictures of— everybody's neck, if you will. yes, we saw pictures of tear _ everybody's neck, if you will. yes, we saw pictures of tear gas - everybody's neck, if you will. yes, we saw pictures of tear gas outside the prison only about an hour or so ago. we have spent a lot of time talking about israeli hostages. in terms of the palestinians released today, tell me a little more about how those people are, because they are women and children, and they? they are women and children, many of whom have been detained without any charge, at least five of the children are what are held without charge or trial is. some of the women were serving sentences, but to explain to the audience, palestinians, including children, are subjected to military courts, so these are not ordinary courts, so these are not ordinary courts that you would think of in london or any other western capital, these are military courts that do not adhere to the same due process standards. that is why in the eyes of the palestinian public, these are not convicted people, they were not rightly convicted. many really view them as hostages as well. their release, even though only 39 out of thousands,is release, even though only 39 out of thousands, is very welcome news for palestinians. tell thousands, is very welcome news for palestinians-— palestinians. tell me a little more. we were hearing _ palestinians. tell me a little more. we were hearing a _ palestinians. tell me a little more. we were hearing a little _ palestinians. tell me a little more. we were hearing a little earlier- palestinians. tell me a little more. we were hearing a little earlier in l we were hearing a little earlier in the day contributors, campaigners talking about what is going on in the west bank, talking about the number of people being held, talking about children or particular. tell me some of the conditions they get held in. . ., ., , me some of the conditions they get held in. _, ., , ., held in. the conditions are appalling- _ held in. the conditions are appalling. unicef - held in. the conditions are appalling. unicef and - held in. the conditions are| appalling. unicef and many held in. the conditions are - appalling. unicef and many human rights organisations document what child detainees go through every year. on average, you have about 700 palestinian children detained by israel every year. about 200—3oo palestinian children detained by israel every year. about 200—300 of them remain in any given year in israeli detention. they are usually detained from their homes in midnight raids. no warrants, no lawyer present, no family present. many of them report they were given vin peepers in hebrew to sign, so by the time lawyers can see them, it is all said and done —— given papers in hebrew. mistreatment, some amounted to torture, beatings, threats against the family, strip searches and so on are also well documented, so these are the conditions palestinian detainees, including children go through. since october 7th, those conditions have got considerably worse, even at the red cross has not been allowed to have any access to them, notjust their lawyers. the adults have been deprived of electricity for much of the day. many of them have been kept handcuffed for most of the day. i asked my previous guest, gideon leavey, the same question i'm going to ask you. do you think what we will see over the next four days and what we have seen much change the basic dynamics of this war?- basic dynamics of this war? gideon le is a basic dynamics of this war? gideon levy is a very _ basic dynamics of this war? gideon levy is a very wise _ basic dynamics of this war? gideon levy is a very wise man _ basic dynamics of this war? gideon levy is a very wise man i _ basic dynamics of this war? gideon levy is a very wise man i do - basic dynamics of this war? gideon levy is a very wise man i do agree | levy is a very wise man i do agree with him that i do not see enough international momentum, enough international pressure to move things into the kind of political direction that the region would need to talk about something more permanent, something more resembling a solution. the underlying causes of this horrendous war where mccain is the fact that palestinians remain captive to the israeli occupation. —— a war we are in. that their aspirations for self—determination have not been respected or given enough attention and support. but i do not see, regrettably, enough of that needed attention by the us or europe to move things in a more positive direction. there is a sliver of hope, maybe that these four days may be extended, that may be the mediators would bring everybody down from their high horses and kind of change the pace, but i'm not sure there are enough conditions to see israel ending this war, especially when we take into consideration that netanyahu's consideration that neta nyahu's political calculus consideration that netanyahu's political calculus and the fact he is fighting to stay in power, knowing very well that he will be held accountable, he has corruption charges to face, and so much more when they were stops. but charges to face, and so much more when they were stops.— when they were stops. but you will know what he _ when they were stops. but you will know what he said _ when they were stops. but you will know what he said about _ when they were stops. but you will know what he said about this - when they were stops. but you will know what he said about this war, | know what he said about this war, this basic objective of destroying hamas. in a sense, they are saying we have done part of that objective in the north, they still have work to do and at the continuation of that. the defence minister said exactly this earlier in the day, to move with full force, that was the court, in the coming days once the stress is finished. it is court, in the coming days once the stress is finished.— stress is finished. it is really astonishing _ stress is finished. it is really astonishing to _ stress is finished. it is really astonishing to h