three times the pre—brexit average of 200—250,000 a year. let's speak to mikejones, who is executive director at migration watch, a british think tank which argues for lower immigration in the uk. the first thing we should say when we talk about those pre—brexit figures, there's an awful lot of stuff that's happened since then. indeed. public opinion is strongly in favour of stricter immigration controls, and there is a widespread belief that this is the government's objective too. there is this sort of common belief that if there's a spike in immigration, it's to government lapses, possibly involving illegal entry or exploitation of the asylum system. but in reality, the spike in immigration results in deliberate policy, not its failure. so the figures have leapt from 606,000 to a staggering 745,000. and this reveals a betrayal of the government's policy to take back control, causing inflation numbers to go into the tens of thousands, and the numbers at 670,000 - tens of thousands, and the numbers at 670,000 — so this is a result of deliberate government policy, not a failure. imilli deliberate government policy, not a failure. ~ , , ., failure. will the focus is on stepping the _ failure. will the focus is on stopping the boats, - failure. will the focus is on stopping the boats, those | failure. will the focus is on - stopping the boats, those coming over the channel, there were 40,000 who came over this year. that's a drop in the ocean when you compare it to 745,000 that came legally. what sort of levers does the government have at its disposal to stop this happening? look government have at its disposal to stop this happening?— stop this happening? look at the increases in _ stop this happening? look at the increases in net _ stop this happening? look at the increases in net migration. - increases in net migration. 0bviously there's an issue with legal migration... but work visas are up to 500... student visas close to 650,000. family visas, 82,000, an increase of over 100%. so when the government says it can't control this, it's outside of its policy, they are lying. these are within its sphere of control, and they've chosen to keep the pedal to the metal on mass legal migration. you are in government at the time, i know borisjohnson certainly wanted know boris johnson certainly wanted to get net migration down. why is it so high, what did he do to the bring it down? ., , so high, what did he do to the bring it down? .,, ., , , ., ., it down? people always start from the idea that _ it down? people always start from the idea that they _ it down? people always start from the idea that they wanted - it down? people always start from the idea that they wanted to - it down? people always start from j the idea that they wanted to make her want _ the idea that they wanted to make her want it— the idea that they wanted to make her want it to be lower, yet when you look— her want it to be lower, yet when you look at — her want it to be lower, yet when you look at specific applications, they come — you look at specific applications, they come to different conclusions. so what _ they come to different conclusions. so what happens when the ukrainians flee so what happens when the ukrainians flee war? _ so what happens when the ukrainians flee war? everybody is very supportive, allowing as many as possible — supportive, allowing as many as possible into this country when people — possible into this country when people are abandoning hong kong, we feel an _ people are abandoning hong kong, we feel an obligation and everyone is in suaport— feel an obligation and everyone is in support of that. in general, an awful_ in support of that. in general, an awful lot — in support of that. in general, an awful lot of— in support of that. in general, an awful lot of people are happy to see it, awful lot of people are happy to see it. and _ awful lot of people are happy to see it. and see — awful lot of people are happy to see it, and see it as a sign of success of uk _ it, and see it as a sign of success of uk universities that they can attract — of uk universities that they can attract and highly competitive markets — attract and highly competitive markets some of the best talent over the world _ markets some of the best talent over the world. but when you added up, it'll become greater figures. so we need _ it'll become greater figures. so we need and _ it'll become greater figures. so we need and more intelligent debate here about as democrat immigration. it's here about as democrat immigration. it's always— here about as democrat immigration. it's always hysterical and about numbers, — it's always hysterical and about numbers, and when those numbers go up, numbers, and when those numbers go up, it's— numbers, and when those numbers go up. it's a _ numbers, and when those numbers go up. it'sa sign— numbers, and when those numbers go up, it's a sign of success. we need to health _ up, it's a sign of success. we need to health workers in social care workers. — to health workers in social care workers, we need those students... part of— workers, we need those students... part of the — workers, we need those students... part of the problem is that david cameron said they would get it to the tens of thousands, the former home secretary talk about a cap. if you box itself into a corner like that, don't be surprised when the public so you haven't delivered. find public so you haven't delivered. and i think that was a mistake. now there's— i think that was a mistake. now there's a — i think that was a mistake. now there's a challenge for the government that not only does it look like — government that not only does it look like a — government that not only does it look like a betrayal, but it looks like incompetence. if you've set yourself— like incompetence. if you've set yourself the goal of cutting the numbers, whether it's a good idea or not, numbers, whether it's a good idea or not. you _ numbers, whether it's a good idea or not. you are — numbers, whether it's a good idea or not, you are judged on that, and on that basis— not, you are judged on that, and on that basis you are judged really poorly— that basis you are judged really poorly at — that basis you are judged really poorly at the moment. so you can either— poorly at the moment. so you can either find — poorly at the moment. so you can either find a — poorly at the moment. so you can either find a way of cutting the numbers— either find a way of cutting the numbers down very harshly and rapidly, — numbers down very harshly and rapidly, or— numbers down very harshly and rapidly, oryou numbers down very harshly and rapidly, or you need to level, and this is_ rapidly, or you need to level, and this is what— rapidly, or you need to level, and this is what rishi sunak says he wants to — this is what rishi sunak says he wants to do, he wants to do things diffe re ntiy — wants to do, he wants to do things differently and level with the british— differently and level with the british government, he wants to tell what's _ british government, he wants to tell what's good for our long—term interests, _ what's good for our long—term interests, and a lot of these things are good _ interests, and a lot of these things are good for us, alongside things that aren't — are good for us, alongside things that aren't-— are good for us, alongside things that aren't. .. ., ,, ., , that aren't. speaking of things good for us, we that aren't. speaking of things good for us. we have _ that aren't. speaking of things good for us, we have a _ that aren't. speaking of things good for us, we have a million _ that aren't. speaking of things good for us, we have a million unfilled i for us, we have a million unfilled jobs, so a lot of people say, why don't we invite more people to fill them? ., �* ., ., ., don't we invite more people to fill them? ., ., ., , them? you're right, a lot of people cominu in them? you're right, a lot of people coming in are _ them? you're right, a lot of people coming in are taking _ them? you're right, a lot of people coming in are taking those - them? you're right, a lot of people coming in are taking those jobs - them? you're right, a lot of people| coming in are taking those jobs that people didn't want to do with an ageing population creating these vacancies particularly in health and care. we want a better care system, but those workers have to come from somewhere. it didn't look like the british people were filling those jobs. and again, the student issues because we offer great courses that are shorter and cheaper than the us, and they are culturally more prestigious, so it people want to come. but it does mean if you ignore the net figure of the total inflow of people, what you're saying is that 150 people on the street weren't here a year ago. that's a lot of change and people are scared of that. and the associate that with the boats, the very obvious contentious issue of people coming in with having gone through due process, which is not the case for workers or students. so it's that fear of change, of course, and people will capitalise on that. in terms of the economy, there are some who say when you're in an economic loan, which we are, the more people you have, the greater the supply—side of the economy, that's one argument. the other one, which jacob rees—mogg was entering today, is that we've invited people in who are lower skilled and lower paid, and that's depressing wages. what would you say to both those arguments?— would you say to both those arr uments? , , ~ arguments? firstly, ithink the anel is arguments? firstly, ithink the panel is completely _ arguments? firstly, ithink the panel is completely wrong - arguments? firstly, ithink the panel is completely wrong on i arguments? firstly, i think the - panel is completely wrong on this. in panel is completely wrong on this. in terms— panel is completely wrong on this. in terms of— panel is completely wrong on this. in terms of pensions, _ panel is completely wrong on this. in terms of pensions, the - panel is completely wrong on this. i in terms of pensions, the argument is debunked — in terms of pensions, the argument is debunked try— in terms of pensions, the argument is debunked by the _ in terms of pensions, the argument is debunked by the ageing - in terms of pensions, the argument is debunked by the ageing process. | is debunked by the ageing process. immigrants — is debunked by the ageing process. immigrants grow— is debunked by the ageing process. immigrants grow old _ is debunked by the ageing process. immigrants grow old and _ is debunked by the ageing process. immigrants grow old and their- immigrants grow old and their arrival— immigrants grow old and their arrival does _ immigrants grow old and their arrival does not _ immigrants grow old and their arrival does not offer- immigrants grow old and their arrival does not offer a - immigrants grow old and their- arrival does not offer a sustainable solution _ arrival does not offer a sustainable solution to — arrival does not offer a sustainable solution to the _ arrival does not offer a sustainable solution to the dependency - arrival does not offer a sustainable solution to the dependency ratio, i solution to the dependency ratio, the current— solution to the dependency ratio, the current ratio— solution to the dependency ratio, the current ratio between- solution to the dependency ratio, the current ratio between the - the current ratio between the working — the current ratio between the working age _ the current ratio between the working age and _ the current ratio between the working age and retired - the current ratio between the . working age and retired people. the current ratio between the - working age and retired people. a sustainable — working age and retired people. a sustainable solution— working age and retired people. a sustainable solution for— working age and retired people. a sustainable solution for this - sustainable solution for this depends— sustainable solution for this depends on— sustainable solution for this . depends on non—demographic sustainable solution for this _ depends on non—demographic means. in terms _ depends on non—demographic means. in terms of— depends on non—demographic means. in terms of productivity, _ depends on non—demographic means. in terms of productivity, productivity - terms of productivity, productivity has fiatiined _ terms of productivity, productivity has flatlined. the _ terms of productivity, productivity has flatlined. the 0br _ terms of productivity, productivity has flatlined. the 0br are - terms of productivity, productivityl has flatlined. the 0br are actually forecasting — has flatlined. the 0br are actually forecasting a — has flatlined. the 0br are actually forecasting a slight _ has flatlined. the 0br are actually forecasting a slight percentage - forecasting a slight percentage decrease — forecasting a slight percentage decrease in— forecasting a slight percentage decrease in productivity- forecasting a slight percentage decrease in productivity this i forecasting a slight percentage i decrease in productivity this year, -0~3%_ decrease in productivity this year, -03% i— decrease in productivity this year, —0.3% i believe. _ decrease in productivity this year, —0.3% i believe. so— decrease in productivity this year, —0.3% i believe. so these - decrease in productivity this year, —0.3% i believe. so these are - —0.3% i believe. so these are economic— —0.3% i believe. so these are economic fallacies. _ —0.3% i believe. so these are| economic fallacies. ultimately —0.3% i believe. so these are . economic fallacies. ultimately a larger— economic fallacies. ultimately a larger population— economic fallacies. ultimately a larger population will— economic fallacies. ultimately a larger population will increase l economic fallacies. ultimately a - larger population will increase gdp, increases _ larger population will increase gdp, increases the — larger population will increase gdp, increases the size _ larger population will increase gdp, increases the size of— larger population will increase gdp, increases the size of the _ larger population will increase gdp, increases the size of the economy l increases the size of the economy because _ increases the size of the economy because you — increases the size of the economy because you have _ increases the size of the economy because you have more _ increases the size of the economy because you have more people, l increases the size of the economy l because you have more people, but ultimately— because you have more people, but ultimately wealth _ because you have more people, but ultimately wealth is _ because you have more people, but ultimately wealth is dependent - because you have more people, but ultimately wealth is dependent on l ultimately wealth is dependent on gdp per— ultimately wealth is dependent on gdp per person. _ ultimately wealth is dependent on gdp per person, per— ultimately wealth is dependent on gdp per person, per capita. - gdp per person, per capita. singapore — gdp per person, per capita. singapore is— gdp per person, per capita. singapore is a _ gdp per person, per capita. singapore is a richer- gdp per person, per capita.| singapore is a richer country gdp per person, per capita. i singapore is a richer country in india. — singapore is a richer country in india. even— singapore is a richer country in india, even though _ singapore is a richer country in india, even though india - singapore is a richer country in india, even though india has. singapore is a richer country in india, even though india has a| india, even though india has a higher— india, even though india has a higher population _ india, even though india has a higher population because - india, even though india has ai higher population because gdp india, even though india has a - higher population because gdp per capita _ higher population because gdp per capita is _ higher population because gdp per capita is higher— higher population because gdp per capita is higher in— higher population because gdp per capita is higher in singapore. - capita is higher in singapore. ultimateiy— capita is higher in singapore. ultimately it's _ capita is higher in singapore. ultimately it's about - capita is higher in singapore. - ultimately it's about productivity, and what — ultimately it's about productivity, and what mass _ ultimately it's about productivity, and what mass immigration - ultimately it's about productivity, and what mass immigration does| ultimately it's about productivity, i and what mass immigration does is increases _ and what mass immigration does is increases dependency— and what mass immigration does is increases dependency on _ and what mass immigration does is increases dependency on certain i increases dependency on certain inflows — increases dependency on certain inflows in — increases dependency on certain inflows in the _ increases dependency on certain inflows in the economy- increases dependency on certain inflows in the economy which . increases dependency on certain. inflows in the economy which diss incentivises — inflows in the economy which diss incentivises businesses _ inflows in the economy which diss incentivises businesses from - incentivises businesses from investing _ incentivises businesses from investing in _ incentivises businesses from investing in human- incentivises businesses from investing in human capital, i incentivises businesses from - investing in human capital, from training — investing in human capital, from training the _ investing in human capital, from training the domestic— investing in human capital, fromj training the domestic workforce, investing in human capital, from i training the domestic workforce, or re-orientating _ training the domestic workforce, or re—orientating their— training the domestic workforce, or re—orientating their business - training the domestic workforce, or| re—orientating their business model to more _ re—orientating their business model to more capitat— re—orientating their business model to more capital intensive... - re—orientating their business model to more capital intensive... that. re-orientating their business model to more capital intensive. . .- to more capital intensive... that is the government's _ to more capital intensive... that is the government's policy, - to more capital intensive... that is the government's policy, to - to more capital intensive... that is the government's policy, to focusl to more capital intensive... that is l the government's policy, to focus on the government's policy, to focus on the british worker and upscale and increased connectivity amongst british workers. but increased connectivity amongst british workers.— british workers. but that takes time, british workers. but that takes time. you _ british workers. but that takes time. you can't— british workers. but that takes time, you can't train _ british workers. but that takes time, you can't train an - british workers. but that takes l time, you can't train an engineer overnight — time, you can't train an engineer overnight i— time, you can't train an engineer overnight. i rememberwhen boris johnson _ overnight. i rememberwhen boris johnson was lobbying very hard for crossroad — johnson was lobbying very hard for crossroad to go ahead, it's now the elizaheth— crossroad to go ahead, it's now the elizabeth line, people write on it every _ elizabeth line, people write on it every day — elizabeth line, people write on it every day. there were not enough engineers — every day. there were not enough engineers in the uk home—grown to build that, — engineers in the uk home—grown to build that, there were enough home—grown engineers in the uk to build hsz, _ home—grown engineers in the uk to build hsz, there might be enough to finish _ build hsz, there might be enough to finish what's left of it. there aren't— finish what's left of it. there aren't enough doctors and nurses, and everybody else to sustain the nhs at _ and everybody else to sustain the nhs at the moment. and you can't 'ust nhs at the moment. and you can't just say— nhs at the moment. and you can't just say to — nhs at the moment. and you can't just say to somebody walking down the street— just say to somebody walking down the street "you'll be a doctor tomorrow," it doesn't happen like that _ tomorrow," it doesn't happen like that you — tomorrow," it doesn't happen like that. you can go abroad and fined 70 who is— that. you can go abroad and fined 70 who is qualified and bring them in. one of— who is qualified and bring them in. one of the — who is qualified and bring them in. one of the things the government would _ 0ne of the things the government would say— one of the things the government would say to you is there's been a change _ would say to you is there's been a change in — would say to you is there's been a change in the nature that people have _ change in the nature that people have been coming here. before it was a free-for-all— have been coming here. before it was a free—for—all as long as you came from _ a free—for—all as long as you came from within— a free—for—all as long as you came from within the european union. now it is a _ from within the european union. now it is a choice — from within the european union. now it is a choice for the government, it's why— it is a choice for the government, it's why the — it is a choice for the government, it's why the numbers are there on them, _ it's why the numbers are there on them, but — it's why the numbers are there on them, but some of them would say they have _ them, but some of them would say they have chosen to bring in people whose _ they have chosen to bring in people whose skills we need, whether they are very— whose skills we need, whether they are very high end, or because they are very high end, or because they are prepared to dojobs are very high end, or because they are prepared to do jobs that for some _ are prepared to do jobs that for some reason, people in the uk, home—grown people won't do, and we need those _ home—grown people won't do, and we need those people as care workers and things— need those people as care workers and things like that.— and things like that. mike, i have to move on _ and things like that. mike, i have to move on suckering _ and things like that. mike, i have to move on suckering go - and things like that. mike, i have to move on suckering go on, - and things like that. mike, i have i to move on suckering go on, mike, very quickly. i5 to move on suckering go on, mike, very quickly-— very quickly. is completely wrong, he's promoting — very quickly. is completely wrong, he's promoting what's _ very quickly. is completely wrong, he's promoting what's a _ very quickly. is completely wrong, he's promoting what's a lump - very quickly. is completely wrong, he's promoting what's a lump of i he's promoting what's a lump of labour— he's promoting what's a lump of labour fallacy. _ he's promoting what's a lump of labour fallacy. if— he's promoting what's a lump of labour fallacy. if you _ he's promoting what's a lump of labour fallacy. if you import - labour fallacy. if you import a million — labour fallacy. if you import a million people _ labour fallacy. if you import a million people to _ labour fallacy. if you import a million people to fill - labour fallacy. if you import a million people to fill in - labour fallacy. if you import a million people to fill in a - labour fallacy. if you import a . million people to fill in a million vacancies, — million people to fill in a million vacancies, guess _ million people to fill in a million vacancies, guess what - million people to fill in a millionl vacancies, guess what happens? million people to fill in a million - vacancies, guess what happens? you create _ vacancies, guess what happens? you create a _ vacancies, guess what happens? you create a million — vacancies, guess what happens? you create a million vacancies _ vacancies, guess what happens? you create a million vacancies once - create a million vacancies once again. — create a million vacancies once again. because _ create a million vacancies once again, because immigrants- create a million vacancies once i again, because immigrants aren't 'ust again, because immigrants aren't just producers— again, because immigrants aren't just producers of— again, because immigrants aren't just producers of goods _ again, because immigrants aren't just producers of goods and - just producers of goods and services, _ just producers of goods and services, their— just producers of goods and services, their consumers. just producers of goods and | services, their consumers as just producers of goods and - services, their consumers as well, and you _ services, their consumers as well, and you need _ services, their consumers as well, and you need a _ services, their consumers as well, and you need a similar— services, their consumers as well, and you need a similar amount- services, their consumers as well, and you need a similar amount ofi and you need a similar amount of people _ and you need a similar amount of people to — and you need a similar amount of people to meet _ and you need a similar amount of people to meet that _ and you need a similar amount of people to meet that demand. - and you need a similar amount of people to meet that demand. sol and you need a similar amount of. people to meet that demand. so it's complete _ people to meet that demand. so it's complete and — people to meet that demand. so it's complete and utter— people to meet that demand. so it's complete and utter nonsense, - people to meet that demand. so it's complete and utter nonsense, and l people to meet that demand. so it's. complete and utter nonsense, and the statistics _ complete and utter nonsense, and the statistics completely _ complete and utter nonsense, and the statistics completely contradict - statistics completely contradict what _ statistics completely contradict what he's — statistics completely contradict what he's saying. _ statistics completely contradict what he's saying. gill— statistics completely contradict what he's saying.— statistics completely contradict what he's saying. all call time on that, we what he's saying. all call time on that. we will _ what he's saying. all call time on that, we will agree _ what he's saying. all call time on that, we will agree to _ what he's saying. all call time on that, we will agree to disagree. i that, we will agree to disagree. thank you very much for that. the net migration is clearly a much bigger problem than the boats crossing the channel in terms of numbers that is merely a distraction. but in europe, illegal migration is driving politics to the hard right. case in point — the extraordinary victory last night of geert wilders in the dutch election. mr wilders has 37 of 150 seats, and will get first dibs at forming a government. before the vote, the three other big parties ruled out taking part in a wilders—led government because of his far—right policies. but that might change because of the scale of his victory. this will send shock waves through europe. if you look across europe right now — the afd in germany, vox in spain, geert wilders and the netherlands, marine le pen and france, viktor 0rban in hungary, it's the hard right populists on the mark. �* . , it's the hard right populists on the mark. . . , , ., ., mark. and in italy, where you and i were. mark. and in italy, where you and i were- but — mark. and in italy, where you and i were- but i — mark. and in italy, where you and i were. but i will— mark. and in italy, where you and i were. but i will say _ mark. and in italy, where you and i were. but i will say but _ mark. and in italy, where you and i were. but i will say but that, - mark. and in italy, where you and i were. but i will say but that, vox . were. but i will say but that, vox didn't perform — were. but i will say but that, vox didn't perform all— were. but i will say but that, vox didn't perform all that _ were. but i will say but that, vox didn't perform all that well. - were. but i will say but that, vox didn't perform all that well. so . were. but i will say but that, voxl didn't perform all that well. so we are looking for the trend, and victor 0rban and others — but italy say it'll be a hard right government, and it's proven not to be that. the ones that seem to be getting in are the ones who are moderating their message. helped in this position that the opposition party indicated they would work with him after all, which made people feel it was ok to vote with him because they emotionally agree with him, theyjust feel some of his policies are too far out, and there was this feeling you could vote for the original person who is against migration because it would be acceptable, because the views would be tempered, which they also said. and that led to this change. it also helped by a large amount of floating voters who had their minds changed, they didn't know how they would vote until the last few days. i don't think this circumstance can be replicated. poland went the other way, so it's not universally the case. but in environments where people managed to hit the right tone of the things that matter to people, so migration, we don't like change, people are feeling the cost of living, that's something that really matters to them. those are messages that will really resonate, and against that, some of the more liberal ideas don't sit as well. those are the countries that will do this change. those are the countries that will do this change-— those are the countries that will do this chance. , w , ., ., this change. very quickly, migration is drivin: this change. very quickly, migration is driving this. _ this change. very quickly, migration is driving this. certainly _ this change. very quickly, migration is driving this. certainly does - is driving this. certainly does that, is driving this. certainly does that. and _ is driving this. certainly does that, and it's _ is driving this. certainly does that, and it's shocking - is driving this. certainly does that, and it's shocking in - is driving this. certainly does that, and it's shocking in anyj that, and it's shocking in any country— that, and it's shocking in any country in _ that, and it's shocking in any country in northern europe, but particularly somewhere as classically liberal as holland, they 'ust classically liberal as holland, they just supported a man who wants to ban the _ just supported a man who wants to ban the koran. that is a llama phobic— ban the koran. that is a llama phobic -- _ ban the koran. that is a llama phobic -- is— ban the koran. that is a llama phobic —— is llama phobic, he is elected — phobic —— is llama phobic, he is elected having stood on that platform. that is very sobering. across — platform. that is very sobering. across the _ platform. that is very sobering. across the world and here in the uk, you're watching bbc news. bbc news — bring you different stories from across the uk. this is craster�*s smokehouse. here since the 1850s, it's been in one family for more than a century — and now granted grade ii—listed status. a staff of 19 queue up the craster kippers. some can still split the fish by hand — a delicate skill. you've gotta have, like, a feeling in your figures. as you look to run the blade along the backbone. do i enjoy it?! i thought you might laugh. it's all right. we have a bit of banter, we have a bit of a laugh. it's cold, it's wet, and its smelly. in the 1900s, many coastal towns would've had smoke houses like this, but many went bankrupt. and in the shop next door, customers come from far and wide. we come every year for kippers especially from here. you think they're that good? they're brilliant, they're gorgeous, we love them. and with the smokehouse now listed, a tradition that should continue for many years to come. it has been another fascinating day of testimony at the covid inquiry. today, it was the turn of dame angela mclean, the chief scientific adviser, who sat on the scientific advisory group for emergencies during the covid—19 pandemic. she told the covid inquiry that in her view the uk could not have eliminated all covid cases in the same way as new zealand and australia did. by the time a full lockdown was under consideration, it was far too late. london is a hope for travel around the world. — london is a hope for travel around the world. in— london is a hope for travel around the world, in new zealand is not, sweden _ the world, in new zealand is not, sweden is — the world, in new zealand is not, sweden is not. so it's a very different— sweden is not. so it's a very different context, and we also have a liberal— different context, and we also have a liberal tradition that means people — a liberal tradition that means people were reluctant to take a £400 billion— people were reluctant to take a £400 billion decision to close down the economy— billion decision to close down the economy without being really sure. i think what's— economy without being really sure. i think what's frustrating about this inguiry— think what's frustrating about this inquiry is — think what's frustrating about this inquiry is there's been a sense that the scientists were always somehow telling _ the scientists were always somehow telling you some objective truths and the — telling you some objective truths and the politicians were idiots who didn't— and the politicians were idiots who didn't understand what they're saying. — didn't understand what they're saying, but this is slowly emerging that the _ saying, but this is slowly emerging that the scientists were disagreeing amongst _ that the scientists were disagreeing amongst themselves over whether masks _ amongst themselves over whether masks were a good idea or not, whether— masks were a good idea or not, whether lockdown — the first one, we wish they'd _ whether lockdown — the first one, we wish they'd done it sooner, but the last one _ wish they'd done it sooner, but the last one pot — wish they'd done it sooner, but the last one pot she wish they'd done it sooner, but the last one po— last one pot she said she was forever papering _ last one pot she said she was forever papering over - last one pot she said she was forever papering over the - last one pot she said she was i forever papering over the cracks largely because civil servants were listening to this scientific evidence she was presenting. but she said the government held midway reviews in april 2020 as if we were halfway through the pandemic, and when she explained it to the mod that this might take 18 months, charles hit the floor. and i think you wrote in your recent podcast, borisjohnson grew bored of this by 2021 -- borisjohnson grew bored of this by 2021 —— jaws hit the floor. that's it, there wasn't a band with? 2022 was when i — it, there wasn't a band with? 2022 was when i was _ it, there wasn't a band with? 2022 was when i was there, _ it, there wasn't a band with? 2022 was when i was there, he - it, there wasn't a band with? 2022 was when i was there, he was wondering _ was when i was there, he was wondering why we should still spend £2 billion _ wondering why we should still spend £2 billion. people wonder why why there's— £2 billion. people wonder why why there's no— £2 billion. people wonder why why there's no money and there are backlogs — there's no money and there are backlogs that have to be cleared — £2 billion — backlogs that have to be cleared — £2 billion a — backlogs that have to be cleared — £2 billion a month, that's like the defence _ £2 billion a month, that's like the defence budget, more money than is spent _ defence budget, more money than is spent in _ defence budget, more money than is spent in anything in scotland and wales _ spent in anything in scotland and wales in— spent in anything in scotland and wales. in persuading scientists it was safe — wales. in persuading scientists it was safe to stop doing universal testing — was safe to stop doing universal testing was unbelievably hard last year. _ testing was unbelievably hard last year. but — testing was unbelievably hard last year, but we did. and guess what? it was the _ year, but we did. and guess what? it was the right— year, but we did. and guess what? it was the right thing to do and we saved _ was the right thing to do and we saved 2 — was the right thing to do and we saved 2 billion a month, and it wasn't — saved 2 billion a month, and it wasn't catastrophic. so there has to be an— wasn't catastrophic. so there has to be an appreciation that scientists were _ be an appreciation that scientists were there to advise, but politicians must take decisions and sometimes make tough calls, but calls that — sometimes make tough calls, but calls that turned out to be right. we believe that there because it's time for the panel. —— we believe that there. justin, you wanted to talk about things giving. is there anything to give thanks for? i things giving. is there anything to give thanks for?— give thanks for? i think there is. we talk a lot _ give thanks for? i think there is. we talk a lot about _ give thanks for? i think there is. we talk a lot about doom - give thanks for? i think there is. we talk a lot about doom and i we talk a lot about doom and gloom, but there's is reason to be cheerful in the middle east for once. i think it's important to remember that, although times are hard now, we live in this amazing period of human history where we have amazing technologies. forall history where we have amazing technologies. for all the nonsense and things we talk about here, i'm not sure any of us would choose to live in a previous age of history if we had to go back and look at it. i think we should be thankful, we focus a lot on risk, but actually this is an amazing time to be alive. the problems we have are of human success. there's lots of us because we've survived and grown — those are good things, so we should be grateful. i good things, so we should be crateful. ., , ., grateful. i need to sit next to you more often. _ grateful. i need to sit next to you more often. l _ grateful. i need to sit next to you more often, i like _ grateful. i need to sit next to you more often, i like this. _ grateful. i need to sit next to you more often, i like this. you - grateful. i need to sit next to you more often, i like this. you want| grateful. i need to sit next to you l more often, i like this. you want to talk about pink shirts, do you wear pink shirts? flat talk about pink shirts, do you wear pink shirts?— talk about pink shirts, do you wear ink shirts? ., ., ., pink shirts? not all the time on tv. i'm the pink shirts? not all the time on tv. km the last — pink shirts? not all the time on tv. i'm the last person _ pink shirts? not all the time on tv. i'm the last person to _ pink shirts? not all the time on tv. i'm the last person to choose - pink shirts? not all the time on tv. i'm the last person to choose a - i'm the last person to choose a football story, but it's not about football. — football story, but it's not about football, it's about, how do you get one of— football, it's about, how do you get one of the — football, it's about, how do you get one of the biggest stars in his area in the _ one of the biggest stars in his area in the world, lionel messi, to go play in _ in the world, lionel messi, to go play in miami? and apparently part of the _ play in miami? and apparently part of the appeal was pink shirts, and pink shirts— of the appeal was pink shirts, and pink shirts - — of the appeal was pink shirts, and pink shirts — they can't produce them _ pink shirts — they can't produce them fast — pink shirts — they can't produce them fast enough, they're flying off them fast enough, they're flying off the shelves, it's the most popular thing _ the shelves, it's the most popular thing worn— the shelves, it's the most popular thing worn there, and i don't know if this— thing worn there, and i don't know if this was— thing worn there, and i don't know if this was retrofitted or this really— if this was retrofitted or this really was the genius of david beckham, but he says it reflects the stucco. _ beckham, but he says it reflects the stucco, light pink of the architecture in miami, it does the miami _ architecture in miami, it does the miami sunset. we know in the end you have tom _ miami sunset. we know in the end you have tom pink— miami sunset. we know in the end you have to... pink is not traditionally a very— have to... pink is not traditionally a very manly— have to... pink is not traditionally a very manly colour for footballers, and it's _ a very manly colour for footballers, and it's a _ a very manly colour for footballers, and it's a sign of the time. and ink and it's a sign of the time. and pink boots _ and it's a sign of the time. and pink boots as _ and it's a sign of the time. and pink boots as well. _ and it's a sign of the time. and pink boots as well. i _ and it's a sign of the time. jifuc pink boots as well. i think lionel messi looks good in any colour, the way he plays football. we have a mutualfriend, way he plays football. we have a mutual friend, jonathan charles, who used to go to war zones and pink shirts — i have a fantastic image of him crossing a river in northern afghanistan in a crisp pink shirt, he never leave without them. you'd never be allowed to wear a pink shirt in the military, would you? probably not most of the time. pink trousers, people would argue. tbs, feta trousers, people would argue. a few red and yellow _ trousers, people would argue. a few red and yellow pink— trousers, people would argue. a few red and yellow pink trousers - trousers, people would argue. a few red and yellow pink trousers in the military, i've seen those. we are out of time, thank you very much for your company this evening, it's been a pleasure. i'm off tomorrow so i don't know who will be sitting in the chair, but the programme will be here, so i hope you'lljoin us for that. same time, same place, have a very good evening. hello from the bbc sport centre. i'm hugh ferris with the latest sports news this evening. great britain are out of the davis cup, beaten by serbia, and novak djokovic in the quarter finals in malaga. jack draper lost the rubber earlier this morning, the real number one has beaten cameron norrie to take his country into the last four, where they will play italy on saturday. you can focus on the amazing man, noah murray or evans. this is a talented team for great britain. against serbia, jack draper was playing not djokovic. british victory in the opening singles seemed imperative, but he was super and extremely consents of —— consistent. leon smith has been through all this before, and draper at 21, not so much. ranked just below his opponent, drake or dimmick or draper took his opponent to a tube tie—break but lost them both —— and draper. serbia celebrated as if they knew what was coming. here he is, novak djokovic, trying to settle it. in the blue corner, cameron norrie — good luck. now there were some british voices in the crowd trying to hurry djokovic up when he served also but when he won the first set, the gesture was aimed back at them. good—natured, probably. cameron norrie is bryn's top ranked player, who never gave up —— gave up, but there's a rank between world war i and the best. straight sets, job done for serbia. joe wilson, bbc news. winning 4—1 at stamford bridge. the game and a hat trick were sealed with the australians second goal in second second—half minutes. the paris goalkeeper from outside the penalty area, sophie ingall got the other goal in ending time. their first win of the competition so far this season. it takes chelsea's second in the group after swedish side hack and beat real madrid for their second win in a row. we also play finland in their 2024 playoff next month, one of two wins they'll have to win to take germany next year. if they beat finland in cardiff, they'll take on either poland or estonia. having on the same route successfully to reach the last world cup. what's important to us, as you'll be aware of, is the home draw on the second leg is in the final. so that's important for us. we've got to get the job done first and foremost, of course we have, but we're probably wanting to avoid ukraine, as well. so i think it's gone to plan for us. the form we're in at the minute, and with the red wall at home, we'll take anybody on at cardiff. elsewhere, 2004 champions greece will need to beat kazakhstan and then either georgia or luxembourg while bosnia will play ukraine and israel will face iceland. in chelsea's group, swedish side hacken are top after a 2—1 everton fans are planning to march on the premier league headquarters this evening in protest at the club's10—point punishment for breaching financial regulations. the club were handed the sanction last week after they exceeded losses permitted under the league's profitability and sustainability rules in the three seasons ending in 2021—22. it means everton are above bottom—place burnley only on goal difference ahead of sunday's match against manchester united. it's only four days since they met in the world cup final, but india and australia played another game of cricket today, and this one was a lot closer than the match in ahmedabad on sunday. it was a t20, and was won thrillingly by india with a six off the final ball by rinku singh. scant consolation you'd imagine, and the teams were very different after the seven week slog of the 50 over competition that's just ended. but india chased down 210 to win in visakhapatnam. lewis hamilton has denied claims he approached red bull earlier this year about a move to the team that's been dominating formula one. their team principal christian horner told a british newspaper there'd been an inquiry" from hamilton. the seven—time world champion signed a new two—year deal with mercedes in august after protracted negotiations. i have not approached christian, i have not spoken to christian for years. laughter and no one from my team, i have checked with everyone, no one from my team has reached out to him, however, he had reached out to me early in the year about meeting up at the end of the season, and i was like: i hope you're well, wish you all the best, and congratulations on the amazing season so far, and i hope i'm able to compete with you in the near future. and that's all the sport for now. hello there. we're all going to be in the same boat, cold boat for tomorrow. but today, earlier on, we saw much more sunshine around, but wildly different temperatures. a very mild 15 celsius across east anglia earlier on, whereas in scotland, itjust got colder as the day moved on. the winds picked up as well, and we've seen quite a number of showers — and those are beginning to turn wintry as well. the colder air is coming down from the north, of course, as the wind direction changes. that milder westerly wind being replaced by a colder northwesterly wind. in between, of course, we've seen a zone of cloud and a little bit of rain, not very much, now sinking down towards the southwest and those showers in northern scotland becoming more wintry even to lower levels. it could be quite stormy for a while in shetland as well. it will of course be a colder night than it was last night. frost at the moment, more limited to scotland, perhaps the far north of england. there'll be more cloud to break up tomorrow in northern ireland, wales, in the southwest, the odd light shower, sunshine coming through. and many places will be dry and sunny tomorrow. the showers turning back to rain in northern scotland will get driven down those north sea coasts of england towards norfolk and suffolk on the stronger winds. and temperatures across the uk will be lower than today, perhaps 6—7 celsius in many places. and it's going to feel colder if you're out and about in the stronger winds. and the strongest winds will be across northern and eastern scotland and down more eastern parts of england, where in the wind, it's going to feel more like 1—2 celsius. as the winds do drop overnight, friday night could see the first widespread frost of the autumn. temperatures could be as low as —5 celsius inland — not quite so cold, perhaps, along those exposed coasts. but it does signal another cold day on saturday. probably not as windy, mind you, on saturday, and not as many showers down these north sea coasts. more cloud coming into northern scotland, and the colder air will have arrived in the southwest of england. but otherwise, those temperatures again struggling, perhaps no better than 5—6 celsius. second half of the weekend, a little bit of a change. may start to see some patchy rain coming into northern ireland, wales, and the southwest which may lift the temperatures. but otherwise, it's going to be another cold day, and feeling cold underneath the cloud across england and wales. there should still be some sunshine for much of scotland. tonight at ten — violence on the streets of dublin, after three children were stabbed near a school earlier in the day. shouting. angry confrontations and vehicles set on fire, as hundreds take to the streets. a night of violence in dublin is still ongoing. police say the riots were ripped up by far right ideology and misinformation on social media. we'll have the latest from the scene. our other main story — we're live injerusalem, as israelis nervously awaiting the start of a hostage deal, to bring some of their kidnapped home. in less than 24 hours, in exchange for palestinian prisoners, 13 israelis are due to be freed by hamas. the hope is more will follow in the coming days. in gaza, hundreds more targets were hit by israel today. but the hostage deal, will also see a pause in the fighting. 0n bbc london — a crane operator rescues a worker from the roof, and on newsnight at 10:30pm, 13 israeli hostages are tonight on the verge of freedom as the plan comes into focus. is this some cause for optimism at last? good evening.

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