this properly, and in part, because of people — this properly, and in part, because of people actually reading it, recording all the opinions, which you could — recording all the opinions, which you could do under certain other circumstances, was not really a realistic — circumstances, was not really a realistic or— circumstances, was not really a realistic or sensible proposition. but we — realistic or sensible proposition. but we did try, and this i think is really— but we did try, and this i think is really critical, sir patrick and thou, — really critical, sir patrick and thou, tried to reflect the range of views— thou, tried to reflect the range of views when we were briefing ministers, to the best availability. we try— ministers, to the best availability. we try to — ministers, to the best availability. we try to capture the fact that there — we try to capture the fact that there were outlier opinions, i don't mean _ there were outlier opinions, idon't mean that— there were outlier opinions, idon't mean that in— there were outlier opinions, i don't mean that in a negative sense, i mean _ mean that in a negative sense, i mean that— mean that in a negative sense, i mean that in a negative sense, i mean that in a negative sense, i mean that in a positive sense, arouhd — mean that in a positive sense, around the _ mean that in a positive sense, around the central view. but _ around the central view. but that _ around the central view. but that process was of course often not recorded because you are communicating your views on verbal briefings, and the government as a general rule didn't therefore fully understand or appreciate the full range of dissenting opinion. one understands the points you make it if there had been long detailed minutes, perhaps governments ministers and officials would not have read them at the same degree of detail that would have read a short documents, and it is important to get the key points out. but in the sphere of these extremely difficult issues, and the difficultjudgment calls are having to be made, not have been better for governments to have been better for governments to have a better understanding of the range of scientific opinion, of the dissenting opinions, of the lone voices, calling for a particular option, but which were not reflected in the consensus opinion?— in the consensus opinion? leaving aside the occasions _ in the consensus opinion? leaving aside the occasions when - in the consensus opinion? leaving aside the occasions when lone - in the consensus opinion? leaving i aside the occasions when lone voices chose _ aside the occasions when lone voices chose to— aside the occasions when lone voices chose to share them with the general public— chose to share them with the general public and _ chose to share them with the general public and the media, there were two mechanisms by which people could get the spread _ mechanisms by which people could get the spread of opinion, one was sir patrick— the spread of opinion, one was sir patrick or— the spread of opinion, one was sir patrick or me briefing ministers, and many— patrick or me briefing ministers, and many of the things in sage were for specific _ and many of the things in sage were for specific ministerial meetings, one or— for specific ministerial meetings, one or both of us would give a briefing — one or both of us would give a briefing on the spread of opinion, and if— briefing on the spread of opinion, and if either of us saw the other has not — and if either of us saw the other has not fairly reflected that we would — has not fairly reflected that we would then chip in. the fact we were both there _ would then chip in. the fact we were both there was helpful, just as, for example. _ both there was helpful, just as, for example, co—chairs on sage was helpful, — example, co—chairs on sage was helpful, so— example, co—chairs on sage was helpful, so avoid a situation where one person's view dominates. but there _ one person's view dominates. but there was— one person's view dominates. but there was a — one person's view dominates. but there was a different mechanism. i think— there was a different mechanism. i think it _ there was a different mechanism. i think it will — there was a different mechanism. i think it will have underestimated this in— think it will have underestimated this in some of their commentary on this, _ this in some of their commentary on this, which— this in some of their commentary on this, which is, it was available to and used — this, which is, it was available to and used lry— this, which is, it was available to and used by very large numbers who listen _ and used by very large numbers who listen to— and used by very large numbers who listen to the debate directly, for example. — listen to the debate directly, for example, almost invariably someone from numberten, someone from cabinet _ from numberten, someone from cabinet office, some from department of health _ cabinet office, some from department of health. they were able, and indeed — of health. they were able, and indeed the treasury for large parts of it, _ indeed the treasury for large parts of it. they— indeed the treasury for large parts of it, they were able to reflect, as they saw — of it, they were able to reflect, as they saw fit, and certainly if they had felt — they saw fit, and certainly if they had felt that the minutes were not what they— had felt that the minutes were not what they had heard, it was entirely open to— what they had heard, it was entirely open to them to say, i know this is what _ open to them to say, i know this is what the _ open to them to say, i know this is what the minutes say, but i was at the meeting, and that is not what i heard, _ the meeting, and that is not what i heard, and — the meeting, and that is not what i heard, and then what i would expect to happen _ heard, and then what i would expect to happen were that to occur, is that the — to happen were that to occur, is that the relevant minister, if they thought— that the relevant minister, if they thought this was important, with sam and sir— thought this was important, with sam and sir patrick or me and say, i have _ and sir patrick or me and say, i have got— and sir patrick or me and say, i have got two versions of this, what do you _ have got two versions of this, what do you see? — have got two versions of this, what do you see? that never happens. but certainly _ do you see? that never happens. but certainly that mechanism could have occurred _ certainly that mechanism could have occurred of — certainly that mechanism could have occurred of people have wished you. that nrany— occurred of people have wished you. that many departments and the devolved — that many departments and the devolved nations had observers. the question is premised on the basis that ministers would read the minutes, was it your impression that they read the minutes, or that somebody read the minutes, told them what they were, or was it ministers relied on your own words? in what they were, or was it ministers relied on your own words?- relied on your own words? in most cases ministers — relied on your own words? in most cases ministers are _ relied on your own words? in most cases ministers are more - relied on your own words? in most cases ministers are more reliant i relied on your own words? in most| cases ministers are more reliant on the verbal. — cases ministers are more reliant on the verbal, but that depended on the minister. _ the verbal, but that depended on the minister, some ministers are more in a sense _ minister, some ministers are more in a sense paper— minister, some ministers are more in a sense paper base in the sense that they absorb— a sense paper base in the sense that they absorb information, others are more _ they absorb information, others are more verbally based, as always, our 'ob more verbally based, as always, our job was— more verbally based, as always, our job was to _ more verbally based, as always, our job was to fit — more verbally based, as always, our job was to fit our communications around _ job was to fit our communications around that. but the minutes where they are _ around that. but the minutes where they are also, we were not in every meeting _ they are also, we were not in every meeting with the ministers, so the minutes— meeting with the ministers, so the minutes was also there are four other— minutes was also there are four other officials to have as an anchor point _ other officials to have as an anchor point as— other officials to have as an anchor point as to — other officials to have as an anchor point as to what had sage actually said, _ point as to what had sage actually said. as _ point as to what had sage actually said, as their central view. that was _ said, as their central view. that was part— said, as their central view. that was part of— said, as their central view. that was part of what they are therefore, and also, _ was part of what they are therefore, and also, a — was part of what they are therefore, and also, a record, and also, iwas pleased _ and also, a record, and also, iwas pleased lry— and also, a record, and also, iwas pleased by this, a public record, so that others— pleased by this, a public record, so that others could comment if they wish _ wish. but dissenting wish. — but dissenting views such as wish. but dissentin- views such as they but dissenting views such as they were were not recorded, generally speaking, in sage minutes. add only those persons who were in the room, with you and sir patrick would have been privy to the verbal briefing, which you have the stride was it useful conduit for perhaps giving a wider range of reflection of sage views? .. . wider range of reflection of sage views? . , _, . wider range of reflection of sage views? . , . , views? that is correct. i accept this as a _ views? that is correct. i accept this as a potential— views? that is correct. i accept this as a potential weakness. l views? that is correct. i accept - this as a potential weakness. what i am seeing _ this as a potential weakness. what i am seeing as there is more than one mitigation _ am seeing as there is more than one mitigation. there was the verbal, to different— mitigation. there was the verbal, to different people in the room, to check— different people in the room, to check the — different people in the room, to check the other was not misunderstanding, and there were observers — misunderstanding, and there were observers. i think you can come up with better— observers. i think you can come up with better solutions to this, but something where the minutes run to 20 or— something where the minutes run to 20 or 30 _ something where the minutes run to 20 or 30 pages which move from a situation _ 20 or 30 pages which move from a situation where if you people read the minutes, to nobody read the minutes, — the minutes, to nobody read the minutes, in— the minutes, to nobody read the minutes, in these kind of situations. these things are always a situations. — these things are always a judgment call, there are degrees by which they can be altered without throwing they can be altered without throwing the baby out with the bath water. it would have been possible, in retrospect, and there was an argument for this, to have had two sets of— argument for this, to have had two sets of minutes, an immediate set that accurately reflected the central _ that accurately reflected the central view, and a longer set, that people _ central view, and a longer set, that people subsequently did. but the one sli-ht people subsequently did. but the one slight caution i would have on that is nry— slight caution i would have on that is my experience of minutes in difficult — is my experience of minutes in difficult areas is that everybody feels _ difficult areas is that everybody feels their own view has been misrepresented almost whatever you do. clearing minutes is a slow and quite _ do. clearing minutes is a slow and quite laborious process because you have to _ quite laborious process because you have to be _ quite laborious process because you have to be accurate. and if you make them _ have to be accurate. and if you make them longer, — have to be accurate. and if you make them longer, it therefore becomes a longer— them longer, it therefore becomes a longer process. i think there are arguments— longer process. i think there are arguments either way. but i think that would be the only thing i could see would — that would be the only thing i could see would be easy to do that would meet _ see would be easy to do that would meet that— see would be easy to do that would meet that need. you _ meet that need. you have mentioned, by way of mitigation, that there were other attendees at sage, but those phc and nhs and other government officials who were attending sage but not necessarily present in your verbal briefings to the prime minister? somewhere, someone in. flat briefings to the prime minister? somewhere, someone in. not always. to have had — somewhere, someone in. not always. to have had that _ somewhere, someone in. not always. to have had that would _ somewhere, someone in. not always. to have had that would have - somewhere, someone in. not always. to have had that would have meant i somewhere, someone in. not always. to have had that would have meant a | to have had that would have meant a very large _ to have had that would have meant a very large room. mr— very large room. mrcummings very large room. mr cummings has very large room. mrcummings has given very large room. mr cummings has given evidence that one of the reasons why he asked wie to be attendees from number ten in cabinet office at sage was because sage minutes did not, in his opinion, capture, what we needed. that was why members of the cabinet office a number ten began attending sage, because they minutes did not adequately reflect the full range of dissenting opinion. find adequately reflect the full range of dissenting opinion.— adequately reflect the full range of dissenting opinion. and there was a mechanism — dissenting opinion. and there was a mechanism for _ dissenting opinion. and there was a mechanism for them _ dissenting opinion. and there was a mechanism for them to _ dissenting opinion. and there was a mechanism for them to pick - dissenting opinion. and there was a mechanism for them to pick that i dissenting opinion. and there was a | mechanism for them to pick that up. my reading _ mechanism for them to pick that up. my reading of the efforts of mr cummings, was he felt it might have been helpful for some ministers themselves to have come and listen to the _ themselves to have come and listen to the debate at sage. that would have been— to the debate at sage. that would have been open to them. when mr cunrnrings— have been open to them. when mr cummings himself, when it was known that mr— cummings himself, when it was known that mr cummings himself sometimes came to _ that mr cummings himself sometimes came to sage, this caused quite a row, _ came to sage, this caused quite a row, i_ came to sage, this caused quite a row, i was — came to sage, this caused quite a row, i was not the person who made the decision— row, i was not the person who made the decision to make that possible, but i thought it was perfectly sensible that one of the most senior advisers _ sensible that one of the most senior advisers to— sensible that one of the most senior advisers to the prime minister, if she or— advisers to the prime minister, if she or he — advisers to the prime minister, if she or he wished to come i could listen _ she or he wished to come i could listen in — she or he wished to come i could listen in on — she or he wished to come i could listen in on sage, struck me as a sensible — listen in on sage, struck me as a sensible thing to do. it would not be sensible would be if they then try to _ be sensible would be if they then try to contribute. they could ask questions. — try to contribute. they could ask questions, potentially, but to try to balance — questions, potentially, but to try to balance the answer given would be unacceptable, but that's not the situation, — unacceptable, but that's not the situation, in my view, that happen. another— situation, in my view, that happen. another aspect of the siege process that has been affected and the evidence for this inquiry is, because of the commission basis upon which requests to sage were made, for particular advice, because of the way in which that system operated, there was another good opportunity for sage to understand what decision makers and ministers were driving at. —— inadequate opportunity. in that the would have been able to understand better if they had spoken directly, and what it was that they wanted from sage, can you think of any way in which the system it might have been recalibrated to allow that one way st to be opened up, or reversed? l st to be opened up, or reversed? i will give a narrow answer. you may want _ will give a narrow answer. you may want to— will give a narrow answer. you may want to go— will give a narrow answer. you may want to go wider. the narrow answer was: _ want to go wider. the narrow answer was, when _ want to go wider. the narrow answer was, when we were certain what ministers — was, when we were certain what ministers wanted, we did our best to reflect— ministers wanted, we did our best to reflect that _ ministers wanted, we did our best to reflect that to sage participants, so they— reflect that to sage participants, so they could reflect that in their pre—workout in the meetings. sometimes, this is not a criticism, 'ust sometimes, this is not a criticism, just a _ sometimes, this is not a criticism, just a statement of fact... you just a statement of fact. .. you would speak— just a statement of fact. .. you would speak to _ just a statement of fact... gm. would speak to members of sage individually, out with the formal meetings come out with the minutes process, and census ligament has in mind? . ~ .. process, and census ligament has in mind? , . ., ., process, and census ligament has in mind? , . . ., ., mind? yes. what we would do, where we were clear — mind? yes. what we would do, where we were clear that _ mind? yes. what we would do, where we were clear that we _ mind? yes. what we would do, where we were clear that we knew _ mind? yes. what we would do, where we were clear that we knew what - we were clear that we knew what government wanted, we are others which _ government wanted, we are others which reflect that. the problem here is iterative. — which reflect that. the problem here is iterative, this is where many of the province _ is iterative, this is where many of the province can come from, sage, it was not _ the province can come from, sage, it was not helpful to see there is a considerable debate going on in government, that was not terribly useful— government, that was not terribly useful to — government, that was not terribly useful to see to sage, it was helpful— useful to see to sage, it was helpful to see, government's strategic— helpful to see, government's strategic aim is x, but the danger was. _ strategic aim is x, but the danger was. sage — strategic aim is x, but the danger was, sage was not in a position to see what— was, sage was not in a position to see what government's position was until the _ see what government's position was until the government itself had its position. _ until the government itself had its position, sometimes the government was waiting _ position, sometimes the government was waiting for sage for its position. _ was waiting for sage for its position. that potential circularity is something that i think bears some thought. _ thought. those communications thought. — those communications were you really government thinking back to individual members of sage were not necessarily recorded, they were perhaps given in verbal conversation, and secondly, it is apparent from the minutes, because there are no reference to sage's understanding of what the government is looking for for what it wants, as to what those needs are, so it does appearas to what those needs are, so it does appear as if the formal process for recording the range of debate did not adequately reflect what it was the government needed, and in its hour of crisis it's needed the assistance of sage? i think there are two answers to that. _ i think there are two answers to that. it — i think there are two answers to that. it is — i think there are two answers to that. it is a _ i think there are two answers to that. it is a fair point. the first is that— that. it is a fair point. the first is that sage was often commissioned directly— is that sage was often commissioned directly from cabinet office, you essentially had what cabinet office wanted _ essentially had what cabinet office wanted from sage, and cabinet office is clearing _ wanted from sage, and cabinet office is clearing house for all of government, including numberten. government, including number ten. that was— government, including numberten. that was one vehicle. but it would have _ that was one vehicle. but it would have been— that was one vehicle. but it would have been incorrect at several levels — have been incorrect at several levels for _ have been incorrect at several levels for their three minutes, which — levels for their three minutes, which were a scientific record, also to have _ which were a scientific record, also to have been a record of my or sir patrick's— to have been a record of my or sir patrick's view on what government policy _ patrick's view on what government policy positions were, that is a different— policy positions were, that is a different thing that would not have been appropriate for us to have recorded — been appropriate for us to have recorded a _ been appropriate for us to have recorded a net three minutes. i am not suggesting that. i know. i am 'ust not suggesting that. i know. i am just explaining where balance potentially lies. ultimately, you answer patrick were required to really verbally in an undocumented, largely undocumented process, your own recollections of the ebb and flow of the within sage. you were required verbally to reflect back to sage and recorders. the response to government and what its thinking was. did that not place upon you answer patrick too great a burden? how could you possibly be expected, after this multitude of meetings, to relay the ebb and flow of debate of these extraordinarily difficult issues in sight meetings with the government? brute difficult issues in sight meetings with the government?— difficult issues in sight meetings with the government? we were not t in: to with the government? we were not trying to relay _ with the government? we were not trying to relay the _ with the government? we were not trying to relay the whole _ with the government? we were not trying to relay the whole ebb - with the government? we were not trying to relay the whole ebb and i trying to relay the whole ebb and flow. _ trying to relay the whole ebb and flow. but — trying to relay the whole ebb and flow, but you were trying to relay the range — flow, but you were trying to relay the range of opinion, slightly different. the alternatives would have been even more burdensome, to write up— have been even more burdensome, to write up the _ have been even more burdensome, to write up the whole thing, get a degree — write up the whole thing, get a degree by everybody, then send it in. in _ degree by everybody, then send it in. in a _ degree by everybody, then send it in. in a fast—moving pandemic the principal— in. in a fast—moving pandemic the principal aim is to be accurate and fast. _ principal aim is to be accurate and fast. the — principal aim is to be accurate and fast. the big advantage we had, and i would _ fast. the big advantage we had, and i would like — fast. the big advantage we had, and i would like to pay tribute to sir patrick. — i would like to pay tribute to sir patrick. he _ i would like to pay tribute to sir patrick, he was extraordinary on this. _ patrick, he was extraordinary on this. if— patrick, he was extraordinary on this. if one _ patrick, he was extraordinary on this, if one of us had inadvertently relayed _ this, if one of us had inadvertently relayed information in it was misunderstood, and can sometimes see this happening in both directions, there _ this happening in both directions, there was— this happening in both directions, there was another person to say, i agree _ there was another person to say, i agree with — there was another person to say, i agree with sir patrick, however i 'ust agree with sir patrick, however i just want— agree with sir patrick, however i just want to clarify the following points. — just want to clarify the following points. that because of having to people _ points. that because of having to people who are relatively wide—ranging scientists able to check— wide—ranging scientists able to check one another's recollection and onwards— check one another's recollection and onwards really, i think did provide some _ onwards really, i think did provide some degree of, in a sense, error prevention — some degree of, in a sense, error prevention in _ some degree of, in a sense, error prevention in the transmission of the information. ifully prevention in the transmission of the information. i fully accept that in a less— the information. i fully accept that in a less frantically paced system there _ in a less frantically paced system there are — in a less frantically paced system there are better ways we could do it, there are better ways we could do it. and _ there are better ways we could do it, and more convenient to a subsequent inquiry, that's not the principal— subsequent inquiry, that's not the principal aim at that time. one — principal aim at that time. one final— principal aim at that time. one final aspect of sage. you have repeatedly referred to the fact that sage was a scientific advisory body, it produced the scientific advice, there was no analog, and there could not properly have been within sage an analogue for economic and societal considerations, that was a matter, a political decision, for the government. you must have reflected upon the fact that sage would be giving advice on the scientific issues, the advice will be relayed through you answer patrick to government, and then, on occasion, that advice would be trumped, i don't mean that in a pejorative sense, but the advice would be made subject to intervening advice, if you like, on the economic and societal issues, in your absence, and in the absence of sage. did you come to believe that there ought to have been an analogous recorded transparent body that could do the same for economic and societal issues as sage was doing

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