information and advice. we often shared papers and they had asked us about the circuit breaker idea and we sent them the papers, i have no idea whether that is what triggered them to take action or not. just above we _ them to take action or not. just above we see — them to take action or not. just above we see an _ them to take action or not. just above we see an extract we looked at earlier, apparently the cabinet office are now cautious about putting things to sage, because we publish all. this happened at this time of increased tension. you said you weren't convinced that anything ever came of that concern. did you think at this time you, there were things you might have been asked about but weren't because of this caution? i been asked about but weren't because of this caution?— of this caution? i suspect, but i can't remember, _ of this caution? i suspect, but i can't remember, that _ of this caution? i suspect, but i can't remember, that i - of this caution? i suspect, but i can't remember, that i would i of this caution? i suspect, but i i can't remember, that i would have had a direct conversation with simon case and said that is not ok we have got to see things. i don't think cabinet office ever did not bring something to us because they were worried about us, but there was a mood that it might happen. above that we see _ mood that it might happen. above that we see you _ mood that it might happen. above that we see you have _ mood that it might happen. above that we see you have referred - mood that it might happen. above that we see you have referred to l mood that it might happen. above that we see you have referred to the press and then said, we have a weak inde sighsive pm. is that something you stand by or was ate light night brain dump? it you stand by or was ate light night brain dump?— brain dump? it was a late-night moment of— brain dump? it was a late-night moment of frustration. - brain dump? it was a late-night moment of frustration. i - brain dump? it was a late-night moment of frustration. i think l brain dump? it was a late-night l moment of frustration. i think the prime minister was influenced a lot by the press. prime minister was influenced a lot by the mesa-— by the press. let's go over the nae, by the press. let's go over the page. please- _ by the press. let's go over the page, please. we _ by the press. let's go over the page, please. we are - by the press. let's go over the page, please. we are on - by the press. let's go over the page, please. we are on now. by the press. let's go over the | page, please. we are on now to by the press. let's go over the - page, please. we are on now to the thursday of that week, 29th october. and you make a reference immediately under the date to a call with the cabinet office i assume, and you say s i argued strongly for the prime minister to set out his aims. what does he want to achieve? protect the nhs. something else. emergency care. all care. this takes us back to a point we raised earlier about scientists needing to understand exactly ly what the government was trying to achieve, other than just stopping the nhs being overwhelmed. that was in march, where we were talking about it this morning. it looks as though that concern arose again at this time?— again at this time? possibly even intensified. _ again at this time? possibly even intensified. what _ again at this time? possibly even intensified. what would - again at this time? possibly even intensified. what would you - again at this time? possibly even intensified. what would you have j intensified. what would you have like to be told that you weren't being told? : it. ill would have been useful if they said all we care about is nhs collapse, just work to only that. but that isn't all they cared abd. about. some days it was we can't stand the number of death. so if that is not the target, what is the target? that you want all routine care running properly and cope with covid? or is it something else, which is we would like to manage the nhs as effectively as we can, but with the economy being in a stronger position with more things open? there are several different permutations that one would think of that would have been helpful to then ensure that we tailored the advice accordingly. ensure that we tailored the advice accordingly-— accordingly. you describe in your statement. _ accordingly. you describe in your statement. a _ accordingly. you describe in your statement, a feedback _ accordingly. you describe in your statement, a feedback session, l accordingly. you describe in your i statement, a feedback session, or, with some of scientists who worked on sage and committees and this feeling that they didn't have a clear understanding of government policy was one of the top issues that you heard and it is something that you heard and it is something that we have heard in evidence ourselves. is that a learning point for next time?— ourselves. is that a learning point for next time? yes, to lay that out clearl . i for next time? yes, to lay that out clearly- i want _ for next time? yes, to lay that out clearly. i want to _ for next time? yes, to lay that out clearly. i want to offer _ for next time? yes, to lay that out clearly. i want to offer one - clearly. i want to offer one pragmatic observation that i have worked in global companies and many other things and everyone always says, i don't think the strategy is clear enough, wherever you are. we shouldn't dream that setting out the policy clearly is going to be something that satisfied this need, but i don't think it was clear enough at that point. we but i don't think it was clear enough at that point. we can go on two pages. — enough at that point. we can go on two pages. the _ enough at that point. we can go on two pages, the next _ enough at that point. we can go on two pages, the next one _ enough at that point. we can go on two pages, the next one is - enough at that point. we can go on two pages, the next one is a - enough at that point. we can go on| two pages, the next one is a blank. but it takes us into the friday of that week. and in fact, yes page 246. we can see towards the bottom, again, the same point, we have pushed all week that the key is for the prime minister to define his aims, but he still hasn't done that. and a similar point raised, a matter of continuing concern, that is fair? and then at the bottom of the page, we know there were a lengthy meeting on that friday, or possibly more than one meeting. we see pm meeting at the bottom. and if we scroll on to next page, pm dashboard meeting. would that have been a separate meeting? a, would that have been a separate meetin: ? �* , i, meeting? a separate meeting, i think. meeting? a separate meeting, i think- were _ meeting? a separate meeting, i think. were these _ meeting? a separate meeting, i think. were these meetings - meeting? a separate meeting, i. think. were these meetings taking lace think. were these meetings taking place remotely _ think. were these meetings taking place remotely or— think. were these meetings taking place remotely or would _ think. were these meetings taking place remotely or would you - think. were these meetings taking place remotely or would you have l place remotely or would you have beenin place remotely or would you have been in downing street? thea;r place remotely or would you have been in downing street? they were a mix. i been in downing street? they were a mix- i can't — been in downing street? they were a mix. i can't remember _ been in downing street? they were a mix. i can't remember this _ been in downing street? they were a mix. i can't remember this one. - been in downing street? they were a mix. i can't remember this one. a . mix. i can't remember this one. a lot of the meetings were taking place in person. we lot of the meetings were taking place in person-— place in person. we now on the frida of place in person. we now on the friday of that _ place in person. we now on the friday of that week _ place in person. we now on the friday of that week and - place in person. we now on the friday of that week and we - place in person. we now on the | friday of that week and we know there were events over the weekend when this lockdown was announced. i think what we see in the next few pages is a lengthy debate about whether a national lockdown should or shouldn't be imposed. and obviously sat down that night and wrote quite a will the of notes at the end of that day. let's go over the end of that day. let's go over the page please to 248. you have made an entry that simon case sent you a whatsapp to say national lockdown on monday, french style. we know the french had imposed a lockdown. you say, i wonder what that look like. do you think you were being told that that decision had been made?— were being told that that decision had been made? yes. would that have been had been made? ies would that have been during the had been made? ie3 would that have been during the meeting had been made? iez3 would that have been during the meeting or, that you were in? it been during the meeting or, that you were in? , . been during the meeting or, that you were in? , v, , were in? it must have been in another meeting _ were in? it must have been in another meeting that - were in? it must have been in another meeting that i - were in? it must have been in another meeting that i didn'tl were in? it must have been in - another meeting that i didn't know about. ., , ., another meeting that i didn't know about. ., ,. , v, about. you carry on describing a meetin: about. you carry on describing a meeting with — about. you carry on describing a meeting with the _ about. you carry on describing a meeting with the pm _ about. you carry on describing a meeting with the pm and - about. you carry on describing a meeting with the pm and we - about. you carry on describing a| meeting with the pm and we see about. you carry on describing a - meeting with the pm and we see you refer there to graphs on projections that suddenly got given to the cabinet office without me seeing them and they will become significant over the next day or so, will they not? and then, further down, prime minister says we need to act, french style national lockdown. it appears a decision is being made and the notes suggest there may have been a certain amount of toing and froing. can you help us? it been a certain amount of toing and froing. can you help us?— been a certain amount of toing and froing. can you help us? it looks as if the decision _ froing. can you help us? it looks as if the decision probably _ froing. can you help us? it looks as if the decision probably had - froing. can you help us? it looks as if the decision probably had been . if the decision probably had been made in another meeting and there had been weeks of build up to what needed to happen. and this meeting sounds like it was an update on the the situation and the pm reiterated what simon had already told me was going to happen. if what simon had already told me was going to happen. ii are what simon had already told me was going to happen-— going to happen. if we go over the me. going to happen. if we go over the -a~e and going to happen. if we go over the page and we _ going to happen. if we go over the page and we are — going to happen. if we go over the page and we are still _ going to happen. if we go over the page and we are still on _ going to happen. if we go over the page and we are still on that - page and we are still on that friday, i think that is homeric logic. there is a discussion and the prime minister talks about a painting. he argues that letting it go may be the better economic route. further down the page, just off the bottom, so the case is weaker if we are just arguing about saving lives, they're all old anyway. on that basis it would seem a decision hadn't been made at that point, or is that not right? that hadn't been made at that point, or is that not right?— is that not right? that is what it looks like- _ is that not right? that is what it looks like. were _ is that not right? that is what it looks like. were these - is that not right? that is what it looks like. were these records. looks like. were these records recording _ looks like. were these records recording the _ looks like. were these records recording the sort _ looks like. were these records recording the sort of _ looks like. were these records recording the sort of toing - looks like. were these records recording the sort of toing and froing, orthe, of the recording the sort of toing and froing, or the, of the arguments at the meeting? i froing, or the, of the arguments at the meeting?— froing, or the, of the arguments at the meeting? i think i was recording as far as i the meeting? i think i was recording as far as i can _ the meeting? i think i was recording as far as i can tell— the meeting? i think i was recording as far as i can tell what _ the meeting? i think i was recording as far as i can tell what happened i as far as i can tell what happened ove the over the course of the day, with things changing from meeting to meeting, depending on who was there and what happened in between. you weren't clear — and what happened in between. you weren't clear whether there was going about lbgtd?— weren't clear whether there was going about lbgtd? lockdown? no it looked like there _ going about lbgtd? lockdown? no it looked like there was, _ going about lbgtd? lockdown? no it looked like there was, but _ going about lbgtd? lockdown? no it looked like there was, but it - going about lbgtd? lockdown? no it looked like there was, but it was - looked like there was, but it was difficult to tell.— difficult to tell. over the the -a u e, difficult to tell. over the the page, someone _ difficult to tell. over the the page, someone has- difficult to tell. over the the page, someone has said, i difficult to tell. over the the i page, someone has said, these difficult to tell. over the the - page, someone has said, these are truly horrible decisions. dominic cummings said the only reason not to do it now was if you would never do it. prime minister said shall we tough it out and say there will be deaths. and another says there needs to be lockdown, i don't see any world in which we don't act. going over the page, still on that friday. you say meeting ended with no decision and going around in circles. too many unknowns. we need to look in our windscreen, deaths will be unacceptable. although further down the page again, 28—day lockdown. we arejust further down the page again, 28—day lockdown. we are just looking at your notes, the notes convey a suggestion of a great deal of indecision on that day. does that... align with your memory? i indecision on that day. does that... align with your memory?— indecision on that day. does that... align with your memory? i think this was a time of... _ align with your memory? i think this was a time of... i _ align with your memory? i think this was a time of... i mean, _ align with your memory? i think this was a time of... i mean, this - align with your memory? i think this was a time of... i mean, this was i was a time of... i mean, this was almost a microcos. of what has been going on for the previous weeks, with the incidence, prevalence and r changing a bit and people moving from one position to another. and the prime minister would take a certain position in one meeting and then perhaps another one later on. sometimes i think was also trying to test people's positions and find out whether they really held to what they were saying. but these meetings largely looked like they were meetings that probably chris whitty and i were there to provide information as requested, rather than as active participants in a policy discusses.— than as active participants in a policy discusses. that friday night there was a _ policy discusses. that friday night there was a leak _ policy discusses. that friday night there was a leak and _ policy discusses. that friday night there was a leak and the - policy discusses. that friday night there was a leak and the next i there was a leak and the next morning on the saturday, there were reports that a lockdown was going to be ordered. and there was then a hastily arranged press conference. if we go over to the next page, you record that in your notes, this is now saturday 31st. frantic day, whole thing leaked into the media. everyone can see action is needed. some people are pushing hard against it. we have to do a press conference today. why not keep it quiet? get it right over the weekend? and then announce properly on monday. it is clear from the tone of this that you felt it obviously has been the case, bounced into making an announcement? or being part of an announcement being bounced into the press conference. the sequence was that a graph that had been to spym had been taken into no 10 we got rather blind sided, having been shown to the prime minister and the no 10 team on friday and we said you shouldn't take too much notice of this graph and look at the six week medium term protections that were more reliable examples of what was happening — which was pretty grim. over night on friday, the policy group having made the decision to do a lockdown, th dedecision was leaked to the press. we come back to this slide point, the prime minister has latched op tho that and the one of the nhs collapsing as the reason for doing it. he was furious that he had pace based on a slide that i was having to row back on and you describe there being a requirement from no 10 that the slide be used in the press conference. you in a subsequent note say you, it shouldn't be, but you were persuaded it should. this incident has been the subject of some debate. tell us in your own word what is the rest of that part of story was? we word what is the rest of that part of story was?— word what is the rest of that part of story was? we were called in to do the press _ of story was? we were called in to do the press conference, - of story was? we were called in to do the press conference, chris i do the press conference, chris whitty and i and we were in a room for three hours when the prime minister was making calls to backbenchers and the press to get people on the right side to the decision. we welcome back clear the night before is in slide was a reasonable worse case scenario and thatis reasonable worse case scenario and that is not a good thing to show in a press conference. studio: you are watching bbc news, you can continue to watch the covid inquiry on the bbc web—site or app. i want to bring you some breaking news, four men have been found guilty of murdering a woman after a gunman opened fire at her home in liverpool. the woman was shot in august 2022. the four men were found guilty of murder by a jury at liverpool crown court. ian fitzgibbon was acquitted. police say mobile phone vote notes condemned the killers. the court heard of a feud between the boyfriend and the drug dealers in the si. ashley dale was alone at home when she was shot dead. ,., . ., i. ., ~ dead. the police, anyone in, make ourself dead. the police, anyone in, make yourself known. _ dead. the police, anyone in, make yourself known. minutes _ dead. the police, anyone in, make yourself known. minutes later i dead. the police, anyone in, make yourself known. minutes later the | yourself known. minutes later the olice yourself known. minutes later the police arrive _ yourself known. minutes later the police arrive and _ yourself known. minutes later the police arrive and found _ yourself known. minutes later the police arrive and found a - yourself known. minutes later the police arrive and found a house i police arrive and found a house peppered with bullet holes. back doofs peppered with bullet holes. back doors open- _