entries suggest that sir patrick vallance had said that a number of ministers were trying to in essence use science to make decisions so they didn't have to make decisions themselves, and there isn't a great structure in that. the point of the inquiry is to learn how to make those decisions, should they need to be made again. there are questions for scientists as well. we have heard in this inquiry, back in february 20 20, six weeks before the uk finally went into lockdown, that there were those in downing street, particularly borisjohnson, who maybe were not taking covid as seriously as they might or should duff done considering what ended up happening, so there are questions to the scientists, had you understood the scientists, had you understood the virus sufficiently and should you have worn people earlier? that could have had a different outcome in terms of restrictions being made earlier and different outcomes to what happened. h0??? earlier and different outcomes to what happened-— what happened. how did patrick vallance work _ what happened. how did patrick vallance work with _ what happened. how did patrick vallance work with chris - what happened. how did patrick vallance work with chris whitty, what happened. how did patrick - vallance work with chris whitty, the chief medical officer? we understand very closely- — chief medical officer? we understand very closely- you _ chief medical officer? we understand very closely. you will _ chief medical officer? we understand very closely. you will remember - chief medical officer? we understand very closely. you will remember the i very closely. you will remember the press conferences every night where we were glued to our tvs where boris johnson would come in, usually flanked by one or both of them, explaining how these policies were being made and the science behind it and what was likely to happen given the scientific models we all grew to know and love. patrick vallance and chris whitty worked in the sage group, the scientific advisory emergency group that we have heard so much about. they worked very closely together. it wasn't just them, a big group of scientists from different specialisms giving their advice to the government at the time. the idea behind the whole inquiries to get to the nub of weather that works, whether enough information was being fed to policymakers and officials and whether the whole machine worked. baroness hallett, the chair of the inquiry, has said on numerous occasions the reason she wants to learn lessons is because another pandemic is a case of when and not if and times of the efforts to learn the lessons because it will happen again. —— time is of the essence to learn. again. -- time is of the essence to learn. ., ,,., , again. -- time is of the essence to learn. ., , , ., learn. some of the lessons learned will be around _ learn. some of the lessons learned will be around the _ learn. some of the lessons learned will be around the cost _ learn. some of the lessons learned will be around the cost of - will be around the cost of lockdowns. patrick vallance's job was presumably to talk about coronavirus and nothing more, nothing about the impact, the psychological impact for example of locking down schools, which has been much talked about in the wake of the pandemic. much talked about in the wake of the andemic. , ., much talked about in the wake of the andemic. , . ., pandemic. yes, and there were of course other— pandemic. yes, and there were of course other experts _ pandemic. yes, and there were of course other experts and - pandemic. yes, and there were of course other experts and other i course other experts and other people doing models about that, and again, that's a question that has come up here, was enough done, was enough looked at, the impact on schools, on the social care services, on all those wider impacts that may be were not thought about at the time, it was a health emergency after all, and we heard scare stories about the number of people who could be infected and could die. so the initial reaction was obviously to try to stop the curve of the infection. but there were huge impacts. i think that's probably what patrick vallance was talking about, this idea of being a human shield. and they are just starting out. human shield. and they are 'ust starting and human shield. and they are just starting out._ i i starting out. let's listen in. i sus-ect starting out. let's listen in. i suspectthis_ starting out. let's listen in. i suspect this is _ starting out. let's listen in. i suspect this is not _ starting out. let's listen in. i suspect this is not the - starting out. let's listen in. i suspect this is not the last i starting out. let's listen in. i- suspect this is not the last time. i fear suspect this is not the last time. fear not. suspect this is not the last time. i fear not. could _ suspect this is not the last time. i fear not. could you _ suspect this is not the last time. i fear not. could you give _ suspect this is not the last time. i fear not. could you give your - suspect this is not the last time. i fear not. could you give your fulll fear not. could you give your full name, fear not. could you give your full name. please? _ fear not. could you give your full name, please? patrick— fear not. could you give your full name, please? patrick john - fear not. could you give your full - name, please? patrick john thompson name, please? patrickjohn thompson valance. as name, please? patrick john thompson valance- as my — name, please? patrickjohn thompson valance- as my lady — name, please? patrickjohn thompson valance. as my lady has _ name, please? patrickjohn thompson valance. as my lady hasjust _ valance. as my lady has 'ust ingiaatag, i valance. as my lady has 'ust indicated, this is i valance. as my lady has 'ust indicated, this is not i valance. as my lady hasjust indicated, this is not your i valance. as my lady hasjust i indicated, this is not your first visit _ indicated, this is not your first visit to— indicated, this is not your first visit to give evidence to the inquiry, _ visit to give evidence to the inquiry, you prepared a witness statement for the first module of this inquiry which we see on screen now and _ this inquiry which we see on screen now and for— this inquiry which we see on screen now and for completeness it's also right _ now and for completeness it's also right isnt— now and for completeness it's also right, isn't it, that you gave oral evidence — right, isn't it, that you gave oral evidence to _ right, isn't it, that you gave oral evidence to module one of the inquiry— evidence to module one of the inquiry on _ evidence to module one of the inquiry on the 22nd ofjune of this yeah _ inquiry on the 22nd ofjune of this ear. , on inquiry on the 22nd ofjune of this year-- on the _ inquiry on the 22nd ofjune of this year. yes. 0n the transcript of that year. yes. on the transcript of that evidence is — year. jazz 0n the transcript of that evidence is available on year. 123 on the transcript of that evidence is available on the inquiry website _ evidence is available on the inquiry website. you kindly have prepared two further witness statements at the request of this module, module two of— the request of this module, module two of the _ the request of this module, module two of the inquiry. first of all, a lengihy— two of the inquiry. first of all, a lengthy statement which we see, the first page _ lengthy statement which we see, the first page of which on screen now. thrat's— first page of which on screen now. that's a _ first page of which on screen now. that's a statement that runs to more than 200 _ that's a statement that runs to more than 200 pages. we will be looking in some _ than 200 pages. we will be looking in some detail at it today. it is signed — in some detail at it today. it is signed tty— in some detail at it today. it is signed by you on the last page of the statement and we can see from this page _ the statement and we can see from this page that it is dated, or from the last— this page that it is dated, or from the last page as well, that it is dated — the last page as well, that it is dated the _ the last page as well, that it is dated the 14th of august this year. the contents of that statement true to the _ the contents of that statement true to the best of your knowledge and belief? _ to the best of your knowledge and belief? . , to the best of your knowledge and belief? , , ., to the best of your knowledge and belief?_ thank - to the best of your knowledge and belief?_ thank you. | belief? yes, they are. thank you. more recently _ belief? yes, they are. thank you. more recently you _ belief? yes, they are. thank you. more recently you prepared - belief? yes, they are. thank you. more recently you prepared a - belief? yes, they are. thank you. | more recently you prepared a short further— more recently you prepared a short further statement for us. it's the third _ further statement for us. it's the third statement on the screen now. that is— third statement on the screen now. that is dated on the top, the 14th of november, only a few weeks ago. is of november, only a few weeks ago. is that _ of november, only a few weeks ago. is that statement also due to the best of— is that statement also due to the best of your knowledge and belief? yes, best of your knowledge and belief? yes. it— best of your knowledge and belief? yes. it is _ best of your knowledge and belief? yes, it is. ., .. best of your knowledge and belief? yes, it is. ., ,, , ., ,, best of your knowledge and belief? yes, it is. ., ,, ,, ., yes, it is. thank you. sir patrick, very briefly. _ yes, it is. thank you. sir patrick, very briefly. a — yes, it is. thank you. sir patrick, very briefly, a few— yes, it is. thank you. sir patrick, very briefly, a few quick - yes, it is. thank you. sir patrick, l very briefly, a few quick questions about— very briefly, a few quick questions about your— very briefly, a few quick questions about your career. is it right to your— about your career. is it right to your initial— about your career. is it right to your initial training was as a medicai— your initial training was as a medical doctor? you then spent some time practising as a general physician in nhs hospitals in london _ physician in nhs hospitals in london. . physician in nhs hospitals in london. , ., , ., physician in nhs hospitals in london. , ., , , london. yes, i was at university collete london. yes, i was at university college london _ london. yes, i was at university college london and _ london. yes, i was at university college london and st _ london. yes, i was at university college london and st george's| college london and st george's hospital in london.— college london and st george's hospital in london. after that your career took — hospital in london. after that your career took an _ hospital in london. after that your career took an academic _ hospital in london. after that your career took an academic turn - hospital in london. after that your career took an academic turn and i hospital in london. after that your | career took an academic turn and in the i990s _ career took an academic turn and in the 19905 and early 2000 she spent some _ the 19905 and early 2000 she spent sometime _ the 19905 and early 2000 she spent some time first as a senior lecturer and 5ome time first as a senior lecturer and then— some time first as a senior lecturer and then as — some time first as a senior lecturer and then as a professor of clinical pharmacology again at ucl. | and then as a professor of clinical pharmacology again at ucl. i was a trofessor pharmacology again at ucl. i was a professor of _ pharmacology again at ucl. i was a professor of medicine _ pharmacology again at ucl. i was a professor of medicine at _ pharmacology again at ucl. i was a professor of medicine at ucl - pharmacology again at ucl. i was a professor of medicine at ucl and l professor of medicine at ucl and continued to practice during that period as well. i continued to practice during that period as well.— continued to practice during that period as well. i was going to say durint period as well. i was going to say during that _ period as well. i was going to say during that period _ period as well. i was going to say during that period you _ period as well. i was going to say during that period you were - period as well. i was going to say during that period you were a - during that period you were a consultant physician at various ucl hospitals — consultant physician at various ucl hos-itals. . consultant physician at various ucl hospitals. yes. and then in 2006 our hospitals. yes. and then in 2006 your career _ hospitals. yes. and then in 2006 your career took _ hospitals. 123 and then in 2006 your career took another turn and your career took another turn and you spent— your career took another turn and you spent from 2006 to 2018 working for glaxosmithkline. yes, you spent from 2006 to 2018 working for glaxosmithkline.— for glaxosmithkline. yes, i was t lobal for glaxosmithkline. yes, i was global president _ for glaxosmithkline. yes, i was global president of _ for glaxosmithkline. yes, i was global president of research - for glaxosmithkline. yes, i was| global president of research and development for them. and global president of research and development for them.- global president of research and development for them. and this is the neriod development for them. and this is the period with _ development for them. and this is the period with which _ development for them. and this is the period with which we - development for them. and this is the period with which we are - development for them. and this is the period with which we are mostj the period with which we are most concerned. — the period with which we are most concerned, in april 2018 your career took another turn and you were appointed — took another turn and you were appointed on that date as government chief scientific adviser and you reniained — chief scientific adviser and you remained in that post until march thi5 remained in that post until march this year~ — remained in that post until march this ear. . remained in that post until march this year. yes. and when you left the boat in _ this year. yes. and when you left the boat in march _ this year. 123 and when you left the boat in march you were succeeded by danie _ the boat in march you were succeeded by dame angela mclean who the inquiry— by dame angela mclean who the inquiry will hear from in due course _ inquiry will hear from in due course. . inquiry will hear from in due course-- by _ inquiry will hear from in due course.- by way - inquiry will hear from in due course.- by way of - inquiry will hear from in due course. yes. by way of preliminary matters, course. yes. by way of preliminary matters. can _ course. yes. by way of preliminary matters. can i _ course. yes. by way of preliminary matters, can i ask _ course. yes. by way of preliminary matters, can i ask you _ course. 123 by way of preliminary matters, can i ask you about two further— matters, can i ask you about two further documents beyond your witness — further documents beyond your witness statement, that the first of those _ witness statement, that the first of those is _ witness statement, that the first of those is the technical report. we have _ those is the technical report. we have it _ those is the technical report. we have it on — those is the technical report. we have it on the page now. the first page. _ have it on the page now. the first page. it _ have it on the page now. the first page. it is — have it on the page now. the first page, it is described as a technical report— page, it is described as a technical report for— page, it is described as a technical report for future uk medical officers. _ report for future uk medical officers, government chief scientific advisers, national medicai— scientific advisers, national medical directors, public health leaders — medical directors, public health leaders in — medical directors, public health leaders in a pandemic. we can see it was dated _ leaders in a pandemic. we can see it was dated december of last year and it is right _ was dated december of last year and it is right, isn't it, i don't think we need — it is right, isn't it, i don't think we need to— it is right, isn't it, i don't think we need to look at this, but you were _ we need to look at this, but you were one — we need to look at this, but you were one of a series of authors of the document. the other authors including — the document. the other authors including sir chris whitty, the chief— including sir chris whitty, the chief medical officer, and others, his deputies and others. the cha nters his deputies and others. the chapters were _ his deputies and others. the chapters were all— his deputies and others. 112 chapters were all written by different experts. sir chris and i and the other deputy medical officers and medical officers from the devolved administrations acted as an editorial team to try to make sure we ended up with the finished product we thought would be useful. we may go to certain passages within this document as we go through niatters — this document as we go through matters today. with that title in mind _ matters today. with that title in mind can — matters today. with that title in mind can you expand on that slightly and give _ mind can you expand on that slightly and give an— mind can you expand on that slightly and give an idea of what the purpose of the _ and give an idea of what the purpose of the document was. the and give an idea of what the purpose of the document was.— and give an idea of what the purpose of the document was. the purpose of the document — of the document was. the purpose of the document was _ of the document was. the purpose of the document was to _ of the document was. the purpose of the document was to try _ of the document was. the purpose of the document was to try to _ the document was to try to understand a few things about what happened during the current pandemic from a technical perspective and try to draw from that and other evidence what useful things might be for a future, as it says, chief medical officer, chief scientific adviser and others, to be able to look at it and others, to be able to look at it and say, there are things there we need to take notice of. some of them are recommendations about what should be put in place now in order to make sure you get the preparedness and structures right. and some of them are things that we think would be useful for people to look at, should there, and i'm afraid there will be at some point, be another pandemic. not because you can predict what the pandemic will look like because each one will be different, but there are some generic lessons in there that we thought would be helpfulfor generic lessons in there that we thought would be helpful for people to understand. this thought would be helpful for people to understand.— thought would be helpful for people to understand. this document if you like sits alongside _ to understand. this document if you like sits alongside your— to understand. this document if you like sits alongside your witness - like sits alongside your witness evidence — like sits alongside your witness evidence as drawing on some very similar— evidence as drawing on some very similar themes. evidence as drawing on some very similarthemes. it evidence as drawing on some very similar themes-— evidence as drawing on some very similar themes.- thank . evidence as drawing on some very i similar themes.- thank you. similar themes. it does. thank you. let me move _ similar themes. it does. thank you. let me move on _ similar themes. it does. thank you. let me move on to _ similar themes. it does. thank you. let me move on to a _ similar themes. it does. thank you. let me move on to a different - similar themes. it does. thank you. let me move on to a different set i similar themes. it does. thank you. | let me move on to a different set of documents — let me move on to a different set of documents by way of introduction and that is— documents by way of introduction and that is the _ documents by way of introduction and that is the evening notes that the inquiry— that is the evening notes that the inquiry has — that is the evening notes that the inquiry has already heard something about _ inquiry has already heard something about and — inquiry has already heard something about. and it's right, isn't it, that— about. and it's right, isn't it, that in— about. and it's right, isn't it, that in response to a disclosure request— that in response to a disclosure request made by this inquiry you produced — request made by this inquiry you produced a lengthy set of personal notes _ produced a lengthy set of personal notes that you wrote during the pandemic. you produced them to us and just— pandemic. you produced them to us and just to _ pandemic. you produced them to us and just to be clear about this, although— and just to be clear about this, although those notes contained some very sensitive personal entries, you disclosed _ very sensitive personal entries, you disclosed the notes in full to the inquiry— disclosed the notes in full to the inquiry at — disclosed the notes in full to the inquiry at the first time of asking. thisr _ inquiry at the first time of asking. this i_ inquiry at the first time of asking. thisr i did — inquiry at the first time of asking. this, i did-— inquiry at the first time of asking. this, i did. describe something of those notes _ this, i did. describe something of those notes on _ this, i did. describe something of those notes on your— this, i did. describe something of those notes on your witness - those notes on your witness statement. if you can go to paragraph 474... you describe here that your practice of writing _ you describe here that your practice of writing these notes started as a nmans— of writing these notes started as a means essentially of protecting your own mental health given the stress that you _ own mental health given the stress that you were experiencing on a daily— that you were experiencing on a daily basis, you wrote them, the term _ daily basis, you wrote them, the term has— daily basis, you wrote them, the term has been used as something of a brain dunip _ term has been used as something of a brain dump at the end of each day. i5 brain dump at the end of each day. is that _ brain dump at the end of each day. is that right? brain dump at the end of each day. is that right?— is that right? yes, at the end of each day. _ is that right? yes, at the end of each day, often _ is that right? yes, at the end of each day, often quite _ is that right? yes, at the end of each day, often quite late - is that right? yes, at the end of each day, often quite late in - is that right? yes, at the end ofj each day, often quite late in the evening, i would just spend a few minutes jotting down some thoughts from that day, some things and reflections, and did it is a way of getting that, in a sense, out of the way so i could concentrate on the following day. these were private thoughts, they were instant reflections from the day. once they were written, i actually never looked at them again. they were put in a drawerand looked at them again. they were put in a drawer and that was that. i certainly had no intention of doing anything else with them either. fin anything else with them either. on that last point, no intention to publish — that last point, no intention to publish them or use them as a basis, we have _ publish them or use them as a basis, we have seen— publish them or use them as a basis, we have seen various people involved in the _ we have seen various people involved in the pandemic, including some of your scientific colleagues, have written — your scientific colleagues, have written memoirs, accounts of their time _ written memoirs, accounts of their time did — written memoirs, accounts of their time. did you think you might draw on these _ time. did you think you might draw on these notes? | time. did you think you might draw on these notes?— on these notes? i had no intention whatsoever— on these notes? i had no intention whatsoever of _ on these notes? i had no intention whatsoever of these _ on these notes? i had no intention whatsoever of these ever - on these notes? i had no intention whatsoever of these ever seeing i on these notes? i had no intention i whatsoever of these ever seeing the light of day or me looking at them again and i sort felt the world had probably had enough of books and reflections of people's thoughts during covid. if reflections of people's thoughts during covid— during covid. if we can go over rtae, during covid. if we can go over page. please- _ during covid. if we can go over page, please. paragraph- during covid. if we can go over page, please. paragraph 478, | during covid. if we can go over. page, please. paragraph 478, the bottom _ page, please. paragraph 478, the bottom of— page, please. paragraph 478, the bottom of the next page, you make the point, _ bottom of the next page, you make the point, you have already said these _ the point, you have already said these notes were written quickly and at the _ these notes were written quickly and at the end _ these notes were written quickly and at the end of the day. you then add, the perhaps— at the end of the day. you then add, the perhaps obvious point, that they were not— the perhaps obvious point, that they were not intended, they couldn't perhaps— were not intended, they couldn't perhaps have been a considered analysis— perhaps have been a considered analysis of events. reading on you say you _ analysis of events. reading on you say you have never gone back to them _ say you have never gone back to thenir you — say you have never gone back to them, you didn't edit them. you didn't, _ them, you didn't edit them. you didn't, as— them, you didn't edit them. you didn't, as it— them, you didn't edit them. you didn't, as it were, add to these thoughts — didn't, as it were, add to these thoughts are things that happened later or— thoughts are things that happened later or any further reflections. are those — later or any further reflections. are those important matters we need to bear— are those important matters we need to bear in— are those important matters we need to bear in mind when, as we will, we look at _ to bear in mind when, as we will, we look at some — to bear in mind when, as we will, we look at some of those notes? | to bear in mind when, as we will, we look at some of those notes?- look at some of those notes? i think the are. look at some of those notes? i think they are- from _ look at some of those notes? i think they are- from my — look at some of those notes? i think they are. from my perspective, - look at some of those notes? i think. they are. from my perspective, these were a way ofjust decompressing at the end of a day and they were some thoughts i'd had that day and wrote down that day, as i say, in order to be clearer the following day that i was going to concentrate on the following day. and they have no purpose other than that. nobody, including members of my family or anyone had seen them or i had any intention of storing them to anybody. intention of storing them to an bod . ., intention of storing them to anbod. ., ., _ . ., anybody. you obviously much more recentl , anybody. you obviously much more recently. in — anybody. you obviously much more recently, in the _ anybody. you obviously much more recently, in the last _ anybody. you obviously much more recently, in the last weeks - anybody. you obviously much more recently, in the last weeks and - recently, in the last weeks and months. — recently, in the last weeks and months, looked back at many of those notes _ months, looked back at many of those notes. would it be fair to say then that some — notes. would it be fair to say then that some of the notes you made reflect _ that some of the notes you made reflect thoughts which you still think— reflect thoughts which you still think in— reflect thoughts which you still think in fact are accurate and perhaps— think in fact are accurate and perhaps others you would wish to qualify— perhaps others you would wish to quality or — perhaps others you would wish to qualify or even disown? yes. perhaps others you would wish to qualify or even disown?— perhaps others you would wish to qualify or even disown? yes. i mean, some of it — qualify or even disown? yes. i mean, some of it i — qualify or even disown? yes. i mean, some of it i look _ qualify or even disown? yes. i mean, some of it i look back— qualify or even disown? yes. i mean, some of it i look back and _ qualify or even disown? yes. i mean, some of it i look back and think, - some of it i look back and think, that seems a sensible and series of reflections over that period. others i look back and see i might have written something and two days later i have written something where actually i don't agree with myself, it might be on how someone had behaved or made an observation, so they were very much instant thoughts. they were very much instant thoughts-— they were very much instant thouthts. , ., ., thoughts. we will bear all those thin t s in thoughts. we will bear all those things in mind _ thoughts. we will bear all those things in mind when _ thoughts. we will bear all those things in mind when we - thoughts. we will bear all those things in mind when we look - thoughts. we will bear all those things in mind when we look at | thoughts. we will bear all those - things in mind when we look at some of these _ things in mind when we look at some of these notes later today. may i 'u5t of these notes later today. may i just ask — of these notes later today. may i just ask a — of these notes later today. may i just ask a rather practical point about— just ask a rather practical point about these notes. i think there is at least _ about these notes. i think there is at least one — about these notes. i think there is at least one section of the notes which _ at least one section of the notes which actually are notes that you took _ which actually are notes that you took during a meeting, the meeting of the _ took during a meeting, the meeting of the 20th september, with professor gupta and others. but by and large _ professor gupta and others. but by and large as you have said, is it right— and large as you have said, is it right that — and large as you have said, is it right that you remember things that took place _ right that you remember things that took place during the day and then wrote _ took place during the day and then wrote about them during the evening? i wrote about them during the evening? i might— wrote about them during the evening? i might have scribbled the occasional thing down on a bit of paper during the day and then looked at it in the evening, but there were at it in the evening, but there were a mix of things i might have noted at the time and things i noted in the evening. as i'm sure you have had the pleasure of realising, my handwriting is not exactly excellent.— handwriting is not exactly excellent. ., ., ., ., ,, excellent. you are a doctor, sir patrick. excellent. you are a doctor, sir patrick- i _ excellent. you are a doctor, sir patrick. i know. _ excellent. you are a doctor, sir patrick. i know. i'm— excellent. you are a doctor, sir patrick. i know. i'm happy- excellent. you are a doctor, sir patrick. i know. i'm happy to i excellent. you are a doctor, sirl patrick. i know. i'm happy to say that was a _ patrick. i know. i'm happy to say that was a task _ patrick. i know. i'm happy to say that was a task other _ patrick. i know. i'm happy to say that was a task other people - patrick. i know. i'm happy to say that was a task other people in i patrick. i know. i'm happy to say i that was a task other people in the team _ that was a task other people in the team have — that was a task other people in the team have had to grapple with! to pick up _ team have had to grapple with! to pick up on — team have had to grapple with! to pick up on the point you made about making _ pick up on the point you made about making notes during the day, when we look at _ making notes during the day, when we look at the _ making notes during the day, when we look at the notes we see that quite often _ look at the notes we see that quite often there are direct quotations that people who you were in meetings with have _ that people who you were in meetings with have said. might that then be something you made a note about at the time _ something you made a note about at the time and then put into your notes _ the time and then put into your notes later or would that just be your— notes later or would that just be your best — notes later or would that just be your best memory later in the day of what they— your best memory later in the day of what they said? it your best memory later in the day of what they said?— what they said? it could be either of those things. _ what they said? it could be either of those things. i _ what they said? it could be either of those things. i might _ what they said? it could be either of those things. i might have - what they said? it could be either. of those things. i might have jotted down a quotation on a bit of paper during the day. you down a quotation on a bit of paper during the day-— down a quotation on a bit of paper during the day. you mentioned your handwriting. — during the day. you mentioned your handwriting, and _ during the day. you mentioned your handwriting, and just _ during the day. you mentioned your handwriting, and just for _ during the day. you mentioned your handwriting, and just for clarity, - handwriting, and just for clarity, in terms — handwriting, and just for clarity, in terms of _ handwriting, and just for clarity, in terms of the process, you provided _ in terms of the process, you provided us with your manuscript notes. _ provided us with your manuscript notes. the — provided us with your manuscript notes, the originals that you wrote. those _ notes, the originals that you wrote. those have — notes, the originals that you wrote. those have then been transcribed into a _ those have then been transcribed into a typed version and a further exercise — into a typed version and a further exercise has taken place to capture certain _ exercise has taken place to capture certain experts that have been put into a _ certain experts that have been put into a schedule and during the course — into a schedule and during the course of— into a schedule and during the course of the day we will be looking mainly— course of the day we will be looking mainly at _ course of the day we will be looking mainly at the schedule of excerpts and a _ mainly at the schedule of excerpts and a little bit at the transcript but happily not at the manuscript version _ but happily not at the manuscript version at — but happily not at the manuscript version at all. i will move on and again— version at all. i will move on and again by— version at all. i will move on and again by way of introduction ask you something _ again by way of introduction ask you something about your role as chief scientific— something about your role as chief scientific adviser before the pandemic in peacetime, if you like. we have _ pandemic in peacetime, if you like. we have heard you were appointed in april 2018 _ we have heard you were appointed in april 2018 and one assumes that the first year— april 2018 and one assumes that the first year and three quarters or so of your— first year and three quarters or so of your term _ first year and three quarters or so of your term was very different from the latter _ of your term was very different from the latter period.— of your term was very different from the latter period._ you i the latter period. yes, it was. you have set out _ the latter period. yes, it was. you have set out in _ the latter period. yes, it was. you have set out in your _ the latter period. yes, it was. you have set out in your first - the latter period. yes, it was. you have set out in your first witness i have set out in your first witness statement — have set out in your first witness statement for module one a degree of detail about all the things that the role of— detail about all the things that the role of government chief scientific adviser _ role of government chief scientific adviser entails and i am not going to go— adviser entails and i am not going to go into — adviser entails and i am not going to go into that statement in any detailr — to go into that statement in any detail, but it is apparent from that statement — detail, but it is apparent from that statement that there is far more to that role _ statement that there is far more to that role than the fairly narrow functionr — that role than the fairly narrow function, very important function, but fairly— function, very important function, but fairly narrow function that you perform _ but fairly narrow function that you perform during the pandemic. can you in a few— perform during the pandemic. can you in a few sentences give us an idea of the _ in a few sentences give us an idea of the breadth of the role you were performing particularly in the first year—and—a—half or so. the performing particularly in the first year-and-a-half or so.— year-and-a-half or so. the chief scientific advisor _ year-and-a-half or so. the chief scientific advisor provides - year-and-a-half or so. the chief| scientific advisor provides science advice for policy, rather than policy for science will stop it is to try to ensure, and the job reports to the cabinet secretary that's accountable to the prime minister and cabinet, that areas of policy consideration and thinking can be informed by science advice whether short—term or long—term. that means areas like climate where a big focus of my attention. areas like what the science system was in government and was adequate to provide that across every department. and areas like how the science base could be best harnessed to think about innovation and areas that might be relevant to the economy. they were the sorts of things i was involved with, and indeed during covid those things continued. so i was the chief scientific adviser for cop 26 in glasgow as well on behalf of the government at that stage. so there are many different areas this role covers and there is a separate chief scientific adviser in each department as well. it scientific adviser in each department as well.- scientific adviser in each department as well. it is a very important _ department as well. it is a very important fact _ department as well. it is a very important fact for _ department as well. it is a very important fact for us _ department as well. it is a very important fact for us to - department as well. it is a very important fact for us to bear i department as well. it is a very important fact for us to bear in | important fact for us to bear in mind — important fact for us to bear in mind is— important fact for us to bear in mind is it _ important fact for us to bear in mind, is it not, that although so much _ mind, is it not, that although so much of— mind, is it not, that although so much of your work during the pandemic— much of your work during the pandemic was based on medical mattersr — pandemic was based on medical matters, which tallied with your own training _ matters, which tallied with your own training, the role of chief scientific adviser covers a far broader— scientific adviser covers a far broader canvas. there is a reference in your— broader canvas. there is a reference in your statement or possibly the notes _ in your statement or possibly the notes to— in your statement or possibly the notes to matters to do with space exploration, dams overflowing, novichok — exploration, dams overflowing, novichok in salisbury, a whole range of scientific— novichok in salisbury, a whole range of scientific matters in normal times — of scientific matters in normal times. . ., of scientific matters in normal times. , ., . ., , times. yes, i would characterise that in three _ times. yes, i would characterise that in three blocks. _ times. yes, i would characterise that in three blocks. science - times. yes, i would characterise that in three blocks. science for| that in three blocks. science for everyday matters of policy and government, which covers everything from things like space exploration to transport or other areas. there is a second block that is emergencies, and in my time there was an emergency obviously relating to novichok in amesbury, salisbury. there was one relating to the potential collapse of a dam at the toddbrook reservoir. and the third is science as it relates to economic matters as well. is science as it relates to economic matters as well-— matters as well. during that first neriod of matters as well. during that first period of a _ matters as well. during that first period of a year— matters as well. during that first period of a year or _ matters as well. during that first period of a year or so _ matters as well. during that first period of a year or so before - matters as well. during that first period of a year or so before the | period of a year or so before the pandemic— period of a year or so before the pandemic you were involved with, and ithink— pandemic you were involved with, and i think commissioned something called _ i think commissioned something called the science capability reviewr _ called the science capability review, and you discussed this in your— review, and you discussed this in your witness statement. can you give us a little _ your witness statement. can you give us a little detail of that exercise and also — us a little detail of that exercise and also can you tell us whether there _ and also can you tell us whether there were — and also can you tell us whether there were any issues that emerged from that— there were any issues that emerged from that exercise that subsequently you felt _ from that exercise that subsequently you felt were relevant to the way in which _ you felt were relevant to the way in which the _ you felt were relevant to the way in which the pandemic was dealt with? yes, which the pandemic was dealt with? yes. that— which the pandemic was dealt with? yes, that was an exercise undertaken together with jeremy hayward, yes, that was an exercise undertaken together withjeremy hayward, who was the then cabinet secretary at the treasury to ask the question, what science capability adequate in the government for what i saw then as a central plank of what all modern governments need to know about. and the work that was published in 2019 identified a number of areas first that the funding for science had decreased across many departments, which left department is somewhat disabled in their ability to use science. second that the departments needed a chief scientific adviser who was more than a lone operator, that he or she needed a structure around them to be able to do it, and a series of operations about public sector research establishments and other parts of the government system. perhaps the most striking headline in a way was the realisation that the fast stream, the graduate intake programme for the civil service, where future permanent secretaries and leaders of the civil service come from, had an intake which comprised 10%, 10% of the intake comprised 10%, 10% of the intake comprised people with a stem degree and 90% was artsy, humanities, social sciences, and only 10% was a stem degree, which struck me as something that would destine this civil service to stay roughly in the same position as it has been for quite a long time. it same position as it has been for quite a long time.— same position as it has been for quite a long time. it was that last noint quite a long time. it was that last toint i quite a long time. it was that last point i wanted — quite a long time. it was that last point i wanted to _ quite a long time. it was that last point i wanted to pursue - quite a long time. it was that last point i wanted to pursue with - quite a long time. it was that last| point i wanted to pursue with you. it is point i wanted to pursue with you. it is a _ point i wanted to pursue with you. it is a striking statistic. perhaps it's obvious, but what was the effect — it's obvious, but what was the effect of— it's obvious, but what was the effect of having only 10% of these leaders _ effect of having only 10% of these leaders of the civil service with a stemr _ leaders of the civil service with a stemr a — leaders of the civil service with a stem, a science technology training? it stem, a science technology training? it means— stem, a science technology training? it means two things, it means the routine consideration of science in policy formulation was not where it needed to be. you can do some of that with scientists trying to be round the table giving information. but the second is that it also meant there isn't always a good receiving system for science because a way of thinking it is different to perhaps how others approach a problem, and that meant it wasn't always easy to get the right tool for science across the civil service. i am very pleased to say, and i should say as a result of that report there is now a result of that report there is now a target to have 50% of the intake with a stem degree, which i think it's about right. it shouldn't be 90% the other way either. [10 it's about right. it shouldn't be 9096 the other way either. do you know if that _ 9096 the other way either. do you know if that target _ 9096 the other way either. do you know if that target has _ 9096 the other way either. do you know if that target has been - 9096 the other way either. do you i know if that target has been reached or how— know if that target has been reached or how it— know if that target has been reached or how it is— know if that target has been reached or how it is doing? the know if that target has been reached or how it is doing?— or how it is doing? the target is set to be reached _ or how it is doing? the target is set to be reached by _ or how it is doing? the target is set to be reached by 2024 - or how it is doing? the target is set to be reached by 2024 and i | or how it is doing? the target is - set to be reached by 2024 and i will look with interest from the sidelines as to whether it is achieved. sidelines as to whether it is achieved-— sidelines as to whether it is achieved. ., , ., ., achieved. turning to your role durint achieved. turning to your role during the _ achieved. turning to your role during the pandemic, - achieved. turning to your role during the pandemic, at - achieved. turning to your role during the pandemic, at a - achieved. turning to your role | during the pandemic, at a very achieved. turning to your role - during the pandemic, at a very high level. _ during the pandemic, at a very high level. those — during the pandemic, at a very high level, those who have been following this inquiry, — level, those who have been following this inquiry, reading the documents, might— this inquiry, reading the documents, might think— this inquiry, reading the documents, might think of your role as falling into three — might think of your role as falling into three parts. first of all your management role at goes science, managing. — management role at goes science, managing, providing structure to those _ managing, providing structure to those generating scientific advice in particular of cost—sharing the sage _ in particular of cost—sharing the sage group. secondly, a role providing _ sage group. secondly, a role providing personal advice to the prime _ providing personal advice to the prime minister and other key decision—makers. and thirdly a presentational role explaining scientific advice to the public. of course — scientific advice to the public. of course in — scientific advice to the public. of course, in the press conferences we are all— course, in the press conferences we are all familiar with. in broad terms. — are all familiar with. in broad terms, does that capture it or are there _ terms, does that capture it or are there other— terms, does that capture it or are there other important aspects you think— there other important aspects you think we _ there other important aspects you think we need to think about? | think we need to think about? i think we need to think about? think in think we need to think about? i think in terms of the work during the pandemic, those three categories are reasonable although they are of course all quite broad. iatgfe are reasonable although they are of course all quite broad.— course all quite broad. we will not be sa int course all quite broad. we will not be saying very _ course all quite broad. we will not be saying very much _ course all quite broad. we will not be saying very much today - course all quite broad. we will not be saying very much today about i course all quite broad. we will not i be saying very much today about your role regarding vaccines because of course _ role regarding vaccines because of course that will be the subject of another— course that will be the subject of another module, but particularly given— another module, but particularly given your— another module, but particularly given your background and your work with glaxosmithkline, you had a considerable role to play, did you not, considerable role to play, did you not. in _ considerable role to play, did you not. in the — considerable role to play, did you not, in the development of the vaccine — not, in the development of the vaccine programme? i not, in the development of the vaccine programme?— not, in the development of the vaccine programme? i set up the vaccines task _ vaccine programme? i set up the vaccines task force _ vaccine programme? i set up the vaccines task force in _ vaccine programme? i set up the vaccines task force in order i vaccine programme? i set up the vaccines task force in order to i vaccine programme? i set up the l vaccines task force in order to get the appropriate skills and focus on what i saw as a major, major issue for the world to get vaccines in time and at the right type and to get them available, in this case, into the uk. in get them available, in this case, into the uk-_ get them available, in this case, into the uk. , ., , into the uk. in terms of the second of those three _ into the uk. in terms of the second of those three limbs, _ into the uk. in terms of the second of those three limbs, the _ into the uk. in terms of the second of those three limbs, the world i of those three limbs, the world providing — of those three limbs, the world providing personal advice, and as we see, providing personal advice, and as we see that _ providing personal advice, and as we see, that was usually orally to the prime _ see, that was usually orally to the prime minister and his advisers. initially, — prime minister and his advisers. initially, is— prime minister and his advisers. initially, is this right, that was a function — initially, is this right, that was a function you performed at cobra meetings? we have all seen the cobra meeting _ meetings? we have all seen the cobra meeting that took place in the early stages _ meeting that took place in the early stages of the pandemic. and latterly, _ stages of the pandemic. and latterly, it became something that you did _ latterly, it became something that you did at — latterly, it became something that you did at other committee meetings and also _ you did at other committee meetings and also less formal occasions at number— and also less formal occasions at number ten. and also less formal occasions at number ten-— number ten. well, the personal advice element _ number ten. well, the personal advice element of _ number ten. well, the personal advice element of course i number ten. well, the personal advice element of course wenti number ten. well, the personal. advice element of course went to number ten. well, the personal- advice element of course went to the cabinet secretary and others as well. it wasn'tjust cabinet secretary and others as well. it wasn't just to the cabinet secretary and others as well. it wasn'tjust to the prime minister. the cobra system really was a place where the output from the sage group came into a ministerialforum and the sage group came into a ministerial forum and where other outputs would come as well. so that is the place where certainly in other emergencies i had seen it work well where different inputs, whether it's well where different inputs, whether its economic, whether it's science or something else, come together. ministers make decisions and there is an operational structure, the civil contingency secretariat, which will make sure the output of that was properly handled across whitehall. that had worked well in previously emergencies we had talked about, and that was the structure in place at the beginning of covid. yes, and we will come back to explore — yes, and we will come back to explore in _ yes, and we will come back to explore in a bit more detail how that worked and issues around how your advice — that worked and issues around how your advice is to be docked and how that might — your advice is to be docked and how that might be reflected in future occasions. i wanted at this stage to clarify— occasions. i wanted at this stage to clarify with — occasions. i wanted at this stage to clarify with you how frequent those occasions _ clarify with you how frequent those occasions were and how we should regard _ occasions were and how we should regard your— occasions were and how we should regard your role, the sense being this, _ regard your role, the sense being this, that — regard your role, the sense being this, that the inquiry has now heard from _ this, that the inquiry has now heard from several witnesses who had as their full—time job advising the prime — their full—time job advising the prime minister, they were with him all day— prime minister, they were with him all day every day, they would spend, it seems— all day every day, they would spend, it seems much of their days during this time _ it seems much of their days during this time talking to him about what steps _ this time talking to him about what steps should be taken, whether that's— steps should be taken, whether that's civil servant saw his political— that's civil servant saw his political advisers. that's civil servant saw his politicaladvisers. how that's civil servant saw his political advisers. how different was your— political advisers. how different was your role to that?— was your role to that? very different- _ was your role to that? very different. it _ was your role to that? very different. it is _ was your role to that? very different. it is not - was your role to that? very different. it is not a - was your role to that? very different. it is not a role i was your role to that? very i different. it is not a role that lives in the cabinet office or number ten. lives in the cabinet office or numberten. in a lives in the cabinet office or number ten. in a case of cobra, we came in to give advice in the cobra meeting and subsequently as things ramped up and there were daily meetings in number ten, i might be in there for 45 minutes for a meeting in the morning and then perhaps not at all until the following day or perhaps not every day. this was an intermittent time to give science advice. i wasn't living and breathing the policy or operational aspects and didn't have a policy or operational role. that's for in the system to do. it's also worth noting that prior to the emergency, i had met the prime minister probably on a couple of occasions and then met mrs may before that on three occasions and i'm think i am right in saying that my predecessor didn't actually have a meeting directly with theresa may. so it wasn't as though the science advisor is in and out of number ten all the time. that obviously came to be the case during covid but it was for specific purposes. 9nd be the case during covid but it was for specific purposes.— for specific purposes. and we will come to see _ for specific purposes. and we will come to see that _ for specific purposes. and we will come to see that there _ for specific purposes. and we will come to see that there were i come to see that there were certainly— come to see that there were certainly times when you are meeting the prime _ certainly times when you are meeting the prime minister on a daily basis. yes _ the prime minister on a daily basis. yes. �* ., ., ._ the prime minister on a daily basis. yes. �* ., ., ., , ., yes. but not all day and they would be some meetings _ yes. but not all day and they would be some meetings you _ yes. but not all day and they would be some meetings you attended i yes. but not all day and they would | be some meetings you attended and then you _ be some meetings you attended and then you asked to leave and other meetings — then you asked to leave and other meetings would go on in your absence _ meetings would go on in your absence. i5 meetings would go on in your absence. is that fair?- there was a chief scientific network. i was asked to lead science for cop26 in glasgow to make sure we had that right. there was a review on the position on the uk in the world which had a big science theme as well. that continued, to produce other reports, but the major focus on the time was on the pandemic, and that took precedence. can i ask you to look at paragraph 13 of— can i ask you to look at paragraph 13 of your— can i ask you to look at paragraph 13 of your witness statement, page niner _ 13 of your witness statement, page nine half— 13 of your witness statement, page nine, half the way down, you say, it was by— nine, half the way down, you say, it was by chance that as chief scientific adviser you had a background in medicine, pharmacology, you see that the person — pharmacology, you see that the person filling that role could come from any _ person filling that role could come from any scientific discipline, was expected — from any scientific discipline, was expected to cover all scientific areas — expected to cover all scientific areas. you see it would be wrong to

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