of earthquakes raise fears of a volcanic eruption. authorities have ordered thousands living in the southwestern town of grindavik to evacuate as a precaution. now on bbc news, talking business. hello, everybody. a very warm welcome to this special edition of talking business weekly. with me, aaron hazelhurst, coming to you from long beach, california. let's go and take a look at what's on the show. a flight full of dollars. that's right. the airline industry is on course to return to profit this year after the turbulence of covid. so we're going to find out how they're investing that cash in the next leg of our journeys. holy cow! from virtual reality to robot wheelchairs, we're here at the airline passenger experience expo to find out what airlines are doing with the latest technology and innovations to help us enjoy our flights. i'm going to be sitting down with one of the most influential figures in the industry, the big boss of qatar airways, to hear how he's expanding his network to meet our soaring demand for travel. and have you ever wondered what it's like up the front of the plane? well, lufthansa is showing it all off in virtual reality. so we're going to find out how the latest tech is cutting costs and changing our on board experience. plus, shaping the future of flight. the big boss ofjet zero tells me how a radical redesign of the actual planes that we fly, along with millions of dollars from the us government could drastically cut the amount of pollution from flying. wherever you'rejoining me from around the world, once again, a big hello and a warm welcome to this special edition of the show. hey, you know, this is the year where airlines are soaring again. the industry, it's on course to make a profit for the first time since covid, as demand for travel continues to rebound from the lows of the pandemic. now, despite the delicate state of the global economy and the worries over inflation, the airline industry as a whole is now starting to think once again how to invest in the future. to help us make the most of our flying experience. did you know this year it's expected 4.35 million passengers will take to the skies? that's almost 96% of the record number that flew in pre—pandemic 2019! and that return of demand comes despite rising fares for passengers. you know, according to data from the travel website kayak, globalflight prices have risen 16% betweenjuly and september this year compared to the same time a year ago. and that's helped some airlines to record record profits. however, the airline body iata, that's the international air transport association, says despite those higher fares, the average airline will make a profit ofjust $2.25 per passenger as the rest of the moneyjust gets sucked up by rising costs. and that's the big challenge because in the last few months, we've seen a steady increase in oil prices. of course, that's the number one expense for airlines. there's also ongoing staffing shortages everywhere, from baggage handlers to pilots. and then there's the cost of moving towards greener aircraft. but despite the cost of living crisis, it's been leisure, rather than business travel, which has been feeding into this strong appetite for air travel in the post—covid world. so i've been catching up with one of the industry's most influentialfigures, the big boss of qatar airways. akbar al bakea, always a pleasure to have you on the show. good to see you, akbar. let's start with this. last year, your airline brought in, well, more money than ever in terms of revenue. some some 21, nearly $21 billion. you saw passenger numbers recover to, i think, 98% pre—covid levels. but, akbar, if we look at the global economy still in a delicate state. i'm just wondering how how do you keep that success going and what are the challenges, do you think, over the next 12 months that you're going to face? the challenge really that we are going to face is the supply chain. the aircraft deliveries. both boeing and airbus have difficulties with the supply chain and they are not supplying the airplanes that we require. due to the covid, a lot of capacity was grounded and those capacity has not come back. and until and unless that capacity comes back, a lot of airlines, minus qatar airways, will have difficulty getting to the 2019 level. and ijust hope that the supply chain ramps up and we start getting our planes on time. we have heard recently the engine manufacturers have huge problems. you heard what pratt told to its customers. so this is all due to the effects of the pandemic. we are desperately waiting for aircraft deliveries in order for us to be able to start expanding the network. the delays will continue for the foreseeable future. let's go back to those record revenues, that record money, as i said, almost $21 billion, but profit was around $1.2 billion. and if you look at the percentage, that's about 5%. i'm just wondering if that's the problem with the business, not your business model, the airline industry model that you have to work so hard, spend so much, just to tweak out a little profit. people underestimate how difficult the aviation business is. and people, they don't realize. they always want lower and cheaper ticket fares. they don't realize that we work with so little margin. and for us it is the economies of scale, the volume we carry, and that 5% makes a substantial amount for us if we can keep that 5%. you mentioned people are always wanting lower airfares. at the moment, we know globally airfares are very, very, very high. and despite the cost of living crisis, the demand, as we've been talking, the demand is there. but akbar, are there any signs that airfares will eventually come down? i ask that because iata says no airfares are going to continue rising to pay for a greener industry. yes, iata is right. as sustainable aviation fuel is introduced, the airfares will have to go up because there is a lack of the fuel, sustainable fuel. the oil industry are not investing enough to get the kind of volumes that we would require. in addition to this, that as long as the capacity is reduced with the delays in aircraft deliveries, the airfares will remain high for the foreseeable future. what do you think will be the deciding factor for success? price, on—board experience? and is there enough demand for all of you? i think the demand is there. there will be demand for any new entrants to come into the market. i also feel that the customer will pay the fare against the product you are offering them. against the quality, against the standards. talking about riyadh, i wish them all the best. not concerned? not concerned. i still think it would be wrong for us to work with them and exchange passengers onto each other. saudi arabia also has the two most important religious sites for my religion, and all over the world we have hundreds of millions of muslims that want to travel to saudi arabia, so i think there is a demand for another airline in saudi arabia. so we've been talking about your expansion plan, but you've been rejected an increase in flights to australia and you want to increase your flights to the four major cities there. the government has blocked you. what is going on down under? because some people say it's almost like they're blocking you to protect the national carrier qantas. aaron, iwould prefer not to respond to this question of yours. there is an ongoing senate inquiry in australia and i don't want to pre—empt anything. i don't want to pre—empt anything what they are trying to do, they are trying to exactly find this matter out. so i will hold my comments. we've touched on sustainability. look, we know about every airline ceo is talking about sustainability. but let me ask you, what concrete steps has qatar airways taken to become greener? and does it make business sense? because not long ago you actually came out and said you don't think it's realistic that the industry is going to hit its target, which is net zero by 2050? i'm saying it again. yeah, right. well, first of all, there need to be established the volume of staff you will need by that sustainable aviation. you also know which person in the industry, will it be shell? will it be bp? will it be exxonmobil? will it be philips petroleum? will be conoco? which of these companies have undertaken to produce mass sustainable aviation fuel? none of them. why don't they make more? what is the issue? well, because i'm not an oil industry expert, i think they have so much investments in hydrocarbons already and they want the return on investments. the price is exorbitant, nearly four or five times the price of a normal aviation fuel. and unless you don't get the economies of scale, we are not going to reduce the price. and unless you don't do that, airlines will struggle to get staff and if we get we'll have to pass the airfare increases to the passenger. always a pleasure. thanks for your time. i'll talk to you soon. so when you're booking your airline ticket, do you ever wonder what it is you're getting for your money? or have you ever been curious to know what it would be like to splash the cash and move up to the front of the plane? well, i tell you what, the german giant lufthansa, it's working on technology that mightjust let you do that in the next few years. so i decided to catch up with the man whose job it is at lufthansa to work out what our on—board experience is going to be like on long haul travel. bjorn becker, our real pleasure to have you on the show. and bjorn, i've got to tell you, let's be frank. you haven't done much with your stand. hey, aaron, first of all, welcome to the lufthansa booth. and this is what you see here. you just don't see it physically. you see it virtually. so this is all about vr. this is all about vr. this is going to let me get on board your new planes and see your new products? let's try it out. okay. i'm going to put this on. i'll see you in a second. well, here i am, believe it or not, in the virtual world, but i'm actually sitting on board lufthansa's allegra business class product. and i have to tell you, i haven't done a lot of vr, but this is pretty much as real as it gets. i mean, i'm looking. you've got buttons around here that do things. i want to eat. let's bring up the tray. the dining tray. here's the dining tray. this is quite phenomenal. let me open this cabin door. so it's private cabin, by the way, as they pretty much are nowadays. but there you are. this is pretty darn realistic, i have to tell you. absolutely. it's this kind of immersive experience we want to we want to bring to our customers, to our crews, to everybody. i can only imagine, and you tell me, but when the product is on board the planes, that something like this will surely help your bookings from people who may not fly up the front of the plane, who think, hey, let's splash that cash and move up because you actually are seeing everything. absolutely. i mean, that's what it's all about. you want to know and want to understand what you're paying for and what you will experience. and this is a perfect way to experience it for passengers, but also for crews and for all the others to have experienced it even before you can experience the product physically. is that the idea behind this technology, to improve or to increase your bookings? at the end of the day, obviously, yes, it's one of the one of the aims. 0k. the crew, you are training something like 18,000 crew to work on board, and it means you don't have to take a plane out of service to practice on the plane for a mock—up. we are training our crews and swiss crews on the product and if you want to train so many people, you have to have a sustainable method and training only on physical seats is not scalable, so that is the perfect way to do it in addition to the physical training. now, i'm actually literally going to step out of this what am i doing here, to see i switch to cabin, right? yeah. if you switch to cabin, you will experience like a full blown three a350 business class cabin. yeah. holy cow. i am on board. this is an airbus 350 mock up, right? yep. with you. and look at this and you can see all the different seat types we offer with the choice we offer for our customers. with the business suite, you have just been sitting in our extra space seat right where you are now. looking to this is important showing these sort of cabins because again, we know that the premium bookings post—covid are up and they're not up because of corporate travel. they're up because of leisure. leisure travel, absolutely. in some cases, like 20% compared to... and people want to understand what they are, what they are paying for and what they get for it. 0k. well, it would be remiss of me notjust to just to have a look into first class. i'm just going to play for some buttons here. big dining table. wow. there you go. and this is all part of, i mean, lufthansa has spent many, many billions. yes. the new lufthansa allegra is around about almost 3 billion euro. we're spending on 150 aircraft. we are equipping with that more than 40,000 seats. it's a phenomenal experience and i wish you the best of luck. can i shake your hand? there we go. i've got it. that's weird. thanks so much, aaron. thanks for having me. really appreciate it. thank you so much, my friend. thank you. now, however good your experience is on board a plane, for many, the most arduous part of flying is getting through the airport. and so it's little surprise that it's an area that's seeing a growing amount of innovation. so i've been checking out some of the latest tech to make our flights just that little bit smoother. well, here's one. you know, airports, like many industries, are still suffering staff shortages, post—pandemic, and that means fewer people around to help, well, smooth out yourjourney through the airport. and one group in particular suffering, well, those that need a little extra help getting from checking to their flight. but a tokyo—based company is well, they're doing this. they're reinventing the wheelchair and making them autonomous. let me catch up with justin gannon from will, the company behind this. justin, good to see you. it's still doing its thing, but what's the technology behind this? we 3d digital map an entire airport. wow. and then on the device itself, there's lidar sensors. so it knows where it is. it knows where there's people. it'll move around obstacles if it needs to. that's while it takes somebody to their gate. so i'm going to stand up and come around here and i'm going to take my bag because it's got a place for your bag. you'll still need somebody to put a person in the chair and then take them out to the other end. you say you still need people. well, so what we hear from airlines these days is about 70 to 80% of the requests for wheelchair service at airports. people do have some mobility to be independent enough to stand up on their own, walk through security, walk the jet bridge, perhaps. so this would be a great solution for those folks. while the people that really need that one—to—one service, can still get that service from the airlines. i don't know if we saw it, but as soon as i stood up, the chair went back to its home. yes. so it's going back to pick up another passenger. you know, those staffing shortages have also been at the heart of the baggage problem which has plagued the airline industry as it bounces back from the pandemic. and look, let's be frank, when they lose our luggage, it's a pretty miserable experience. but one of europe's biggest research institutes is planning to roll out the answer to airports all around the world. so let's catch up with one of the brains behind this thing — leon. leon, what's so good about this bot? well, it's the most flexible, smartest, fastest and cutest robot you can find. and what makes this better, leon, than, well, a human baggage handler? well, it won't be injured. yeah. you don't accent, you don't have injuries. it can lift the casual weights of luggage. and look, you're not rolling it outjust yet. maybe in a couple of years time. but could something like this be cheaper than the yearly salary of a baggage handler? it would definitely be, yes. you could probably buy two in comparison to one worker. and, leon, you must have airports knocking at your doorfor this. yes. all around the world, for example, munich airport. but even other ones. so big airports, small airports. regional airports. yes. so it seems machines are taking over our airport. but check this out. this is a store where you literally walk in, grab your stuff and walk out. no waiting in line to pay at the till, all thanks to sensors, cameras and a lot of technology behind the scenes. let's talk tojohn jenkins from amazon. john, good to see you. you've got these stores, amazon stores, all around the world, 150 locations. but what makes this a good idea for an airport? well, people want to get in and out of these stores quickly in an airport, and people can get in and out of one of our stores with what they need in under 10 seconds. no. yes. when you exit through the exit gate, we get your receipt right and charge your credit card. do you know when i first saw this idea, first thing came to my mind, duty free. this would be a perfect solution. in and out quickly at the airport. want to grab something? don't have the time because i'm going to line up. this would be a perfect solution. it'd be great. like we can support almost any type of selection you'd want to sell in a store. and if people want to get in and out fast, we're the perfect solution. is duty free going to happen, do you think? oh, well, we'll have to wait and see. yeah. and just to be clear, this is not amazon—labeled stores at airports. this is you selling your technology, correct? we provide the technology to companies like hudson and wh smith who operate the stores just as they would normally. you know, ever since the first commercial airline took flight more than 100 years ago, airplanes that pretty much look the same, a tube that we all sit in, wings attached to the side and a tail up the back. but a radical redesign is in store. jet zero, they're based right here in long beach, california, recently announced its plans to build something called a blended—wing body plane. so i caught up with its big boss, tom 0'leary. a real pleasure having you on the show. and also thanks for giving me your first television interview. just for the uninitiated, tom, we can see the picture here, but so we can see what it looks like, this blended—wing. but just explain it. explain the benefits of this radically new aircraft. the benefit right off the bat is 50% less fuel burn and emission. 50%? wow. yeah. and so what the airline industry or what whatjets have been doing for the past 50 years or so is working with tube and wings and solving for thrust, right, more efficient engines that's great and we've come a long way. but really the fundamental properties of this aircraft design is that we're solving for lift, weight and drag, right? so we have a lifting body aircraft which has less drag and which also has less weight. but see what gets me, tom, is this concept has been around for decades. i talk about nearly 100 years of commercial aviation and the plane really hasn't changed. why did we go with something like that when this has been around for decades? well, certainly the the advent of all—composite aircraft is probably the biggest thing. it's a great enabler of this particular shape. so we can build this shape which is more efficient. what the world needs right now most is a step change in aviation, and that is exactly what this new airframe can provide. let's be frank, one of the biggest problems the industry has is fingers being pointed in term of sustainability, and they point to aviation and say you are the villain here. we talk about a step change with this aircraft. finger wagging is not the answer, the answer is innovation, and let's offer a technological solution. that is really the answer. well, if you're talking about the possibility of 50% savings in efficiency and fuel burn, i would only imagine are airlinesjust knocking down your door? absolutely. we're talking to all the major airlines globally because 50% has just not been on the table. they're used to wringing out a percentage point or two based on their configuration. so they're absolutely interested in this. and seeing what it can do for their networks and operations, for sure. i want to know. so i'm going to without damaging it, pick the model up here. we can see we can see in the picture here... 0k, you've got the windows. but so the passengers sit along here and along here and then inside the guts of this plane that's without a window? 0bviously, that's exactly right for sure. do we know? i know it's only early days, but we have any idea what sort of passenger experience you will get being on board this? yeah, this is this is going to be a different shape of an aircraft. and so it gives us an opportunity to focus on all the improvements that that shape enables, right? so from the front of the aircraft, the windows are basically forward—facing all the way to the aft of the aircraft where we can create a more spacious environment. the possibilities are amazing. and it all sounds very promising. let's talk about the reality of it. where are we at? so you're going to build a prototype. when is it going to be in the air? yeah. so first step, we're working with nasa and the air force to build a full—scale demonstration. we're entirely focused on demonstrating the capacity for performance with this airframe at full scale. that's a four—year program. 2027, we fly that plane. a prototype then. exactly. and then certification and scale to manufacturing, bring it to the market. right. that's how you address it. and very recently, tom, you received well, it's a $235 million investment from the us defense department , the air force, right? yes. how how important is that money? because i'm wondering, could this project go ahead without that sort of public money? well, it's more than just the money. it's fantastic, of course. i mean, investment, you know, the capital needs of a program like this, you know, we need that. but it's more than that. it's really the expertise and the interest and the ability to help us with this, the scale and the solidity of the program. the air force is just a phenomenal partner for us. what you've done here in this photo is you've connected the airport bridge. you've shown an airport bridge connecting the plane because a lot of critics will say you bring out a completely radical new plane and it's not going to fit into the current airport infrastructure, and that'd be a big block for — to get this going. but you're building this to fit in with the current airport infrastructure we have today. really, even on a wider perspective, there's a highly optimised system that air carriers operate, right? so they want solutions that are operating at the same speed, the same range, the same passenger capacity, the same runways, taxiways, gates. the entire system is very highly optimized and runs on a narrow margin. so our target is to fit within that system with little or no alteration to the way things operate today. quite possibly one of your biggest hurdles could be airbus and boeing, because they've tinkered with this, but they're not really in this space. well, they have their own problems and challenges that they're dealing with, and they need to sell what's on the lot. and that's fine. whether or not it's, it's successful is incumbent upon the efforts that we are in control of. ultimately, this is going to be good for the entire industry, including them. right? this is a transition like we saw with space x, tesla, the entire space and automotive industry, making the transition. making a spark doesn't help the one that likes the spark, it helps the entire industry and we are happy about that and we think they will be two. cost—wise, once it gets up and running, and i know we are a bit away from that, will there be a similar cost for an airline to the current cost of planes? it's too early now to talk about the price of the aircraft, but the cost has to fit within their current cost structure and that is part of fitting into the existing system, so we look at it in terms of cost of total ownership. tom, let me end on this. it's fair to say you've been working on this for years, this is your dream, this is your passion, and i am assuming you will do everything humanly possible to get us on board one of these planes in the not—too—distant future. it it really a treat as a founder of a company to not be the inspiration. the mission is the inspiration. we are bringing people onto this team, this plane, and this mission are inspiring, and that is a unique thing that helps everything that we are doing here. well, on that note, tom 0'leary, a real pleasure. i'm going to track this. i want to chat with you in a year's time. absolutely. follow this project. good luck with everything. thank you so much. well, that's it for this week's special edition of the show from long beach, california. i hope you enjoyed it. don't forget, you can keep up with the latest on the global economy on the bbc website or the smartphone app. x me and i'll x you back. you can get me a bbc, aaron. i'm in london next week. i'll see you then. bye. good morning. welcome to breakfast, with luxmy gopal and rogerjohnson. 0ur headlines today: police condemn violence by right—wing protesters during pro—palestinian demonstrations in central london. scotland yard blames the intense debate over policing for fuelling community tension. the uk will fall silent today to honour those who paid the ultimate sacrifice, as king charles leads the country on remembrance sunday.

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