lead the next phase, whatever the judgment of the pm about him. you told the prime minister to sack mr hancock. i told the prime minister to sack mr hancock. ., �* ~' told the prime minister to sack mr hancock. ., �* ~ , ., hancock. i don't think i use that word with _ hancock. i don't think i use that word with him _ hancock. i don't think i use that word with him but _ hancock. i don't think i use that word with him but i _ hancock. i don't think i use that word with him but i did - hancock. i don't think i use that word with him but i did use - hancock. i don't think i use that word with him but i did use it. hancock. i don't think i use that word with him but i did use it in| hancock. i don't think i use that l word with him but i did use it in a whatsapp with simon case. you described it _ whatsapp with simon case. you described it thus, to save lives and protect the nhs. that described it thus, to save lives and protect the nhs.— protect the nhs. that was gallows humour. protect the nhs. that was gallows humour- and _ protect the nhs. that was gallows humour. and i _ protect the nhs. that was gallows humour. and i realise _ protect the nhs. that was gallows i humour. and i realise inappropriate, evenin humour. and i realise inappropriate, even in a private exchange, not something i would have expected to be public, but i was echoing, it was gallows humour echoing the slogan of communications early on. but that is not to be over interpreted. but communications early on. but that is not to be over interpreted.— not to be over interpreted. but the words i told _ not to be over interpreted. but the words i told the _ not to be over interpreted. but the words i told the prime _ not to be over interpreted. but the words i told the prime minister - not to be over interpreted. but the words i told the prime minister to l words i told the prime minister to sack mr hancock. that reflects the seriousness of the position in the grey position with which the government found itself —— grave position. government found itself -- grave osition. ., ., ., ., ., position. that would followed of the conversation — position. that would followed of the conversation i _ position. that would followed of the conversation i would _ position. that would followed of the conversation i would have _ position. that would followed of the conversation i would have had - position. that would followed of the conversation i would have had with l conversation i would have had with the prime minister as to whether a change would be right for the next phase. i had raised my concerns. it was not intended to remove mr hancock but to have a grip on the issue but in the end the prime minister has to make the east judgments. —— thesejudgments. mrjohnson says, i did not have any concerns regarding the performance of a new cabinet minister including mr hancock, i do not think that i received any advice from some answered that matt should be removed. what do you say to that? i can see how he might remember it that way. i did not provide formal advice to the prime minister, so there are occasions when a cabinet secretary has to give advice to the prime minister about the status of a minister, particularly if there has been a breach of the ministerial code, and i did have to give both prime ministers i served advice in that way. so, that is formal advice, written, et cetera. these were, as i'vejust written, et cetera. these were, as i've just expressed, conversations about mr hancock, i don't think i would have used the word hair with the prime minister himself, although i acknowledge i said it to mr case. but he would have been under no illusions as to my view about what was best. ., ., was best. you left him under no doubt whatsoever _ was best. you left him under no doubt whatsoever that - was best. you left him under no doubt whatsoever that he - was best. you left him under no doubt whatsoever that he would was best. you left him under no i doubt whatsoever that he would be better advised to replace mr hancock with another minister as a secretary of state for health. i with another minister as a secretary of state for health.— with another minister as a secretary of state for health. i did. a different — of state for health. i did. a different topic, _ of state for health. i did. a different topic, almost - of state for health. i did. a l different topic, almost there, of state for health. i c c a different topic, almost there, lord sedwill. the inquiry understands that the civil contingencies act 2004 was not used as a basis for the covid legislation or regulations. and as it happened, the main coronavirus act was passed by parliament on the 25th of march and received royal assent to the same day. it had been through every stage in the house of commons and house of lords on a single day, the 23rd of march. in the event, the government used in england at any rate the public—health control of diseases act 1984 is the overarching legislation under which to promulgate the statutory instrument, the secondary legislation, that was the secondary legislation, that was the coronavirus regulations. so, firstly, having passed the coronavirus will, and it having passed into law as the act, why was the 1964 act are used as the overarching legislation for the main coronavirus legislation, regulations?— coronavirus legislation, reuulations? ., ., ., , a regulations? the coronavirus act went beyond _ regulations? the coronavirus act went beyond that, _ regulations? the coronavirus act went beyond that, so, _ regulations? the coronavirus act went beyond that, so, there - regulations? the coronavirus act| went beyond that, so, there were other provisions in it. and in that specific case, i think at the time it was because we were already more familiar with the public health act, there was a need to move extremely quickly to put those into law and create the legal certainty, in particular the police needed, to enforce the regulations. so, judgment wasjust made enforce the regulations. so, judgment was just made that it would be simpler and give a better legal clarity to use existing rather than brand—new legislation that hadn't yet essentially being fully lamented. yet essentially being fully lamented-— yet essentially being fully lamented. , , . ., , lamented. the inquiry is curious, because it _ lamented. the inquiry is curious, because it has _ lamented. the inquiry is curious, because it has received - lamented. the inquiry is curious, because it has received evidence| lamented. the inquiry is curious, l because it has received evidence in module one, of course, that a great deal of time and energy was devoted to the pandemic for bill that then became the coronavirus bill, which then became the act, but in the actuality, in the event, it wasn't even used for the primary legislation is in those first few days? legislation is in those first few da s? ., , . ., a legislation is in those first few das? ., ,. ., a days? no, the public health act was, and on reflection, _ days? no, the public health act was, and on reflection, it _ days? no, the public health act was, and on reflection, it may _ days? no, the public health act was, and on reflection, it may have - days? no, the public health act was, and on reflection, it may have been l and on reflection, it may have been possible to have drafted a different version of the coronavirus bill, so that the powers didn't overlap between the two pieces of legislation.— legislation. and the civil contingencies _ legislation. and the civil contingencies act - legislation. and the civil contingencies act wasn't legislation. and the civil - contingencies act wasn't used, legislation. and the civil _ contingencies act wasn't used, was that because of the very unusual and draconian nature of the powers in part two of that act, which require ministers, if they use that act, to issue regulations, to a point, emergency coordinations, for each part of the united kingdom, and obviously there are very real concerns about the civil liberties aspects of such a step, was that what caused ministers to shy from using the civil contingencies act and instead then use the coronavirus act and the public—health factor? it act and the public— health factor? it would have a factor. another factor, though, and probably the more important, was that the civil contingencies act is only to be used if there is no legislative alternative, in a sense if there is simply no time, because it allows ministers to make, essentially make law by decree, and then of course that has to be reviewed by parliament at a very regular, very regular intervals, but the underlying premise is that that can only happen if there simply isn't the time or opportunity to create an alternative vehicle, and for the reasons you set out, there was in this case. . , reasons you set out, there was in this case. ., , i. reasons you set out, there was in this case-— this case. finally, you heard of course, this case. finally, you heard of course. as— this case. finally, you heard of course. as you _ this case. finally, you heard of course, as you have _ this case. finally, you heard of course, as you have indicated, | this case. finally, you heard of. course, as you have indicated, a most difficult conversation with mr johnson on or around the 14th of may 2020. regardless of how you came to agree to such a move, or why it happened, do you think that the means of your departure, the nature of that decision and that meeting and the way in which you came to leave, affected the civility of the civil service and the higher echelons of government? i service and the higher echelons of government?— service and the higher echelons of covernment? , ., , ,, ., , government? i should 'ust know 'ust for the government? i should 'ust know 'ust fer the record fl government? i should 'ust know 'ust for the record the i government? i should just know 'ust for the record the decision �* government? i should just knowjust for the record the decision wasn't i for the record the decision wasn't taken in that meeting, there was a discussion in that meeting, for the reasons you said, i think there is no need to go through all of the to—ing and fro—ing, a lot of it is in the whatsapps and other messages. the final decision i took was in earlyjune, with his agreement, and that goes to the point that you have raised, i was conscious that the departure of a cabinet secretary, particularly although we were in a, period but particularly in these circumstances would undoubtedly be destabilising, and many of my colleagues urged me to stay on, fight through the next set of pressure and stick it out. i was also conscious, however, having heard over a year of it, that it was also destabilising for the system to have constant hostile attacks on the cabinet secretary, and also the office of the cabinet secretary. and that predated mrjohnson, but it was particularly his government that it had become particularly acute, distortions, leaks, some cases things that were just simply untrue. there was a story put out that in his absence, i had conspired with don't know who to postpone the imitation of brexit. i mean, completely untrue, completely untrue. and so, —— implementation —— that that was also destabilising for the civil service, and the first division and others talked about that. and in the end, it was personally wearing as well, there is only so much any lightning conductor can take, but in the end, i concluded that a fresh cabinet secretary appointed by that prime minister and his team, they would have to stop that, those anonymous attacks et cetera would have to stop, and therefore i felt that might be the opportunity for a fresh start and so on balance i concluded for both professional as well as personal reasons that it was the right time to go.— personal reasons that it was the right time to go. those attacks were in to thank are _ right time to go. those attacks were in to thank are coming _ right time to go. those attacks were in to thank are coming from - right time to go. those attacks were in to thank are coming from your. right time to go. those attacks were l in to thank are coming from your own site? . in to thank are coming from your own site? , ., ., , in to thank are coming from your own site?_ alemanno - in to thank are coming from your own site?_ alemanno mara i in to thank are coming from your own site?_ alemanno mara is| site? yes. roope. alemanno mara is in a statement _ site? yes. roope. alemanno mara is in a statement and _ site? yes. roope. alemanno mara is in a statement and perhaps - site? yes. roope. alemanno mara is in a statement and perhaps you - in a statement and perhaps you should give her the final word —— helen mcnamara said... it made those in the civil service less confident about challenging. no—one was safe. if the cabinet secretary was not. and dealing with the unravelling preoccupied a number of us for three critical weeks. the comings says it was a bomb. from a government level it kind of kept week after week after week of debilitating argument across the system. putting aside the issue or whether or not he was entitled to express that view at all, would you agree with the sentiments of both those ministers? i would, but as i said, there was a countervailing factor of what the destabilising behaviour already, and thatis destabilising behaviour already, and that is why i made the judgment i did that it was the right time to go. did that it was the right time to a o, ., ~' did that it was the right time to to. ., " , ., did that it was the right time to go. thank you very much for their are some questions _ go. thank you very much for their are some questions from - go. thank you very much for their are some questions from core - are some questions from core participants butjust before at the risk of indulging in another seven hours come on lord lister yesterday, in times of national emergency, i think i probably speak on behalf of the average citizen, ijust assumed that there would be structures in place that suddenly you would have a, whether it is cobra for a national emergency, but that they would be other structures beneath the main structure which would just slip into place, but i'm not getting the feeling that is what happened. you ended up with ministerial implementation _ you ended up with ministerial implementation groups, - you ended up with ministerial implementation groups, and. you ended up with ministerial- implementation groups, and then they -ot implementation groups, and then they got replaced _ implementation groups, and then they got replaced by— implementation groups, and then they got replaced by the _ implementation groups, and then they got replaced by the task— implementation groups, and then they got replaced by the task force, - got replaced by the task force, should — got replaced by the task force, should there _ got replaced by the task force, should there be _ got replaced by the task force, should there be a _ got replaced by the task force, should there be a system - got replaced by the task force, - should there be a system whereby there _ should there be a system whereby there is— should there be a system whereby there is in— should there be a system whereby there is in the _ should there be a system whereby there is in the cabinet— should there be a system whereby there is in the cabinet manual, - should there be a system whereby there is in the cabinet manual, in| there is in the cabinet manual, in times— there is in the cabinet manual, in times of— there is in the cabinet manual, in times of national— there is in the cabinet manual, in times of national emergency, - there is in the cabinet manual, in| times of national emergency, this there is in the cabinet manual, in. times of national emergency, this is what is _ times of national emergency, this is what is going — times of national emergency, this is what is going to _ times of national emergency, this is what is going to happen, _ times of national emergency, this is what is going to happen, so- times of national emergency, this is what is going to happen, so that - what is going to happen, so that everybody— what is going to happen, so that everybody knows _ what is going to happen, so that everybody knows where - what is going to happen, so that everybody knows where they. what is going to happen, so thatj everybody knows where they are what is going to happen, so that - everybody knows where they are going to be going _ everybody knows where they are going to be going and — everybody knows where they are going to be going and what _ everybody knows where they are going to be going and what they— everybody knows where they are going to be going and what they are - everybody knows where they are going to be going and what they are going i to be going and what they are going to be going and what they are going to be _ to be going and what they are going to be doing? — to be going and what they are going to be doing?— to be doing? yes, i think there should. to be doing? yes, i think there should- it _ to be doing? yes, i think there should. it is _ to be doing? yes, i think there should. it is important - to be doing? yes, i think there should. it is important to - to be doing? yes, i think there - should. it is important to remember the scale of this crisis, the biggest crisis this country had faced since world war ii, and government is reshaped by crises of that scale. it is inevitable that it will be. and for the most part, the crisis management machinery core for floods or terrorist attacks awful and mouth et cetera works reasonably well, and there is a big question for government about how much resource they are prepared to devote to contingent capability, and we discussed... to contingent capability, and we discussed. . ._ discussed... riot insurance? exactl . discussed... riot insurance? exactly- itut _ discussed... riot insurance? exactly. but we _ discussed... riot insurance? exactly. but we discussed i discussed... riot insurance? i exactly. but we discussed cape abilities that did not exist in health and social care, those are not trivial capabilities in which to invest and of course in many cases those capabilities are still not there, if we were hit by another pandemic today, for example. so, there was our big choices. i do think, though, your point is a good one, that i think the cabinet manual should have more material on this so that it should have more material on this so thatitis should have more material on this so that it is more familiar to the whole of government, notjust the crisis experts, if you like. and i think for example if we take the example of the mix, it is obviously a matterfor you, but if example of the mix, it is obviously a matter for you, but if we were faced by another crisis of this scale, having a group looking at the issue itself, in this case health, having a group looking at public services and their impact and continuity of public services, having a group looking at the economy, having a group looking at the international, those would be sensible ways to organise ourselves, frankie, whatever we call them, and making sure the devolved administrations are properly engaged, i think the same is true as well. 0bviously one needs to make those things work effectively, and we had to amend as we went. but i agree that this is something that government i hope has already learned some lessons ahead of your own, my lady, about this, and i hope some of that work is in hand. but when ou some of that work is in hand. but when you have those different committees, there is so much overlap, and having got used to having meetings involving, doubt i say it, certain officials, i know that before any meeting takes place there is probably an officials meeting and there is probably a pre—briefing meeting and a briefing meeting, and if you have all these different committees, though, public services is one leg, and their health is another. well, isn't health is another. well, isn't health a public service? they overlap in so many different ways, don't they, involve duplication? brute don't they, involve duplication? we drew don't they, involve duplication? - drew up the terms of reference so that they were fairly clear boundaries between them and in truth, the move from the mix to kova covid—0 in particular, there was slightly less to that than has been apparent, in that the international was wrapped into the national security council, which have not problem met and the economic one was wrapped into the government's existing economic cabinet committee which also hadn't met. regrettably that meant that the dh kova were no longer directly involved in the same way so in some ways it was a merger of the health and public services makes was really what happened with the creation of the covid—0 structure. and i think there isjust a judgment about the phasing of this, i think going into the lockdown, there was so much work to do across government because we didn't have all the plans and programmes we needed there were three dozen programs of which a minority were in health, across the whole of government. if it had been a single ministerial committee having to deal with all of that they would have been in constant session,

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