the inquiry, including the former chief officer of nhs england. our chief officer of nhs england. our chief reporter zoe conway is outside the building at paddington in london. talk us through what we are expecting to hear today, zoe. in the next few minutes, _ expecting to hear today, zoe. in the next few minutes, simon _ expecting to hear today, zoe. in the next few minutes, simon stevens i expecting to hear today, zoe. ii�*u time: next few minutes, simon stevens will be giving evidence. we haven't heard from him during this inquiry before. there may not be the shock and awe in his testimony that we have heard from dominic cummings and indeed helen macnamara yesterday, but i think his evidence could be pretty tantalising nonetheless. we have heard very little from him about his role in the pandemic. he was the chief executive of the nhs from 2019, so before the pandemic, all the way through to the summer of 2021. i think the reason why it is going to be so interesting is because he was one of the men in the room when some really big decisions were made, and i suspect that what they will want to ask him about it is just how prepared was the nhs at the beginning of 2020 in the early stages. what kind of state was the nhs in? we know that in nhs speak, it was running hot. there were no spare beds. what kind of state was the nhs in to cope with this? access to personal protective equipment, ppe, what kind of access was that at that? just what kind of state was the health service in? there are bound to be also questions about decisions made about discharging people, from the elderly, from hospitals into care homes. what was his role in those decisions, and what about the lack of testing when they were transferred into the social care setting? that will be fascinating to find out. and also i think there could well be questions around the second lockdown, that was very controversial, that criticism around that, and that second lockdown happened in the autumn of 2020, so i think this is going to be a really interesting evidence session from simon stevens. interesting to hear about the situation from health officials, because we have been hearing a picture, a lot of criticism from the aids working at the heart of government aboutjust aids working at the heart of government about just how shambolic things were at the time, and huge criticism about the way things were organised in the attitude of the people at the heart of the decision making, so it will be interesting to see how that went together along with the health officials and the advice that they were handing over. absolutely, and we won'tjust be hearing from simon stevens, we will also be hearing from the most senior civil servant at the department of health, sir christopher wool mould. his perspective on that. and also the x medical director of public health england, dr yvonne doyle. and all of them i'm sure will be asked about the decision—making in number ten, and what they were hearing... i'm sorry, zoe, i'm going to interrupt you because the feed has just started from the covid inquiry. a copy of your statement is on the screen now. i'm sure you are familiar with the contents of that statement, and on the last page you have signed that statement with the date, the 22nd of september of this year underneath the statement of truth saying that you believe the facts contained in the statement are true. is that right? it facts contained in the statement are true. is that right?— facts contained in the statement are true. is that right? it is. simon stevens. _ true. is that right? it is. simon stevens. you — true. is that right? it is. simon stevens, you had _ true. is that right? it is. simon stevens, you had a _ true. is that right? it 3 simon stevens, you had a lengthy career in the nhs, latterly in nhs england, and of particular interest to the inquiry, you were chief executive of the nhs from april 2014 tojuly 2021, is that right? it the nhs from april 2014 to july 2021, is that right?— the nhs from april 2014 tojuly 2021, is that right? it is. and it is clear then _ 2021, is that right? it is. and it is clear then from _ 2021, is that right? it is. and it is clear then from the - 2021, is that right? it 3 and it is clear then from the dates that the final year of your tenure as chief executive of the nhs was during the covid pandemic. yes. we also know that _ during the covid pandemic. yes. we also know that you _ during the covid pandemic. yes. we also know that you made _ during the covid pandemic. yes. we also know that you made a - during the covid pandemic. yes. we also know that you made a life - during the covid pandemic. yes. we also know that you made a life peer| also know that you made a life peer on stepping down as chief executive in 2021. lord stevens, help us a little bit, if you will, with the nature of your role as chief executive of nhs england. is it right that you were as it were the operational head of that organisation? yes. it operational head of that organisation? yes.- operational head of that organisation? yes. operational head of that oruanisation? yes. , organisation? yes. it is of course an enormous _ organisation? yes. it is of course an enormous organisation, - organisation? yes. it is of course - an enormous organisation, enormous budgets, huge staff, the buildings and so on. just give us an idea if you will as to the scope of your role in that post. the you will as to the scope of your role in that post.— role in that post. the nhs in encland role in that post. the nhs in england is — role in that post. the nhs in england is not _ role in that post. the nhs in england is not one _ role in that post. the nhs in england is not one and - role in that post. the nhs in england is not one and the l role in that post. the nhs in - england is not one and the same as nhs england, somewhat confusingly. so nhs england is the body that was created by parliament in 2012, in the first instance to oversee the funding for different health services across the country. but as part of that 2012 act of parliament, actually quite a number of the responsibilities for the health system overall were distributed, some might say fragmented, between different bodies, of which the nhs was one, and nhs england had the responsible achieve training, nhs digitalfor responsible achieve training, nhs digital for data, responsible achieve training, nhs digitalfor data, public responsible achieve training, nhs digital for data, public health england for notjust infectious diseases but ppe stockpiles and so forth, and so over time, frankly we have attempted to ensure that together pieces of the jigsaw are coming together to form the full picture, but the consequence of that is that in legal terms at least, before the changes were made in 2022, nhs england was not actually directly responsible for the totality of what was happening in the nhs in england, confusing as that sounds, that is the legacy that parliament bequeathed us. perhaps not for the totality _ parliament bequeathed us. perhaps not for the totality of _ parliament bequeathed us. perhaps not for the totality of the _ parliament bequeathed us. perhaps not for the totality of the nhs - parliament bequeathed us. perhaps not for the totality of the nhs in - not for the totality of the nhs in england, but what was it responsible for? ., , ., , ., england, but what was it responsible for? .,, .,, ., ., england, but what was it responsible for? ., , ., , ., ., ,, for? ourjob was to lead the nhs resonse for? ourjob was to lead the nhs response to _ for? ourjob was to lead the nhs response to the _ for? ourjob was to lead the nhs response to the covid _ for? ourjob was to lead the nhs response to the covid pandemic. | for? ourjob was to lead the nhs - response to the covid pandemic. add to be directly accountable to parliament as the the funding that flows to the nhs and england which was about £150 billion per year. we need to be clear, don't we, but other the relationship between nhs england and new, and the health secretary, matt hancock. put it crudely, he was not your boss, was he? . . ., , he? the chief executive of nhs encland he? the chief executive of nhs england is _ he? the chief executive of nhs england is accountable - he? the chief executive of nhs england is accountable to - he? the chief executive of nhs england is accountable to the l he? the chief executive of nhs - england is accountable to the board of nhs england, and it felt as if i had many bosses, so the board of nhs it was one, and i obviously had an accountability to the secretary of state, to the government, but also more widely to parliament, as i have described as the accounting office of the organisation, and frankly i felt an obligation to the staff in the nhs as well, and the public. moving on to the pandemic itself, lord stevens, it is obvious that the nhs was involved really at every level of the response to the pandemic, and that involvement will find its reflection in the involvement of nhs england with this inquiry. there is to follow this module, as you know, a module that will focus on the nhs itself. there will focus on the nhs itself. there will be vaccines module, there is a module to consider ppe, care homes, all of which the nhs will have a strong interest in.— all of which the nhs will have a - strong interest in._ this strong interest in. absolutely. this module, strong interest in. absolutely. this module. as — strong interest in. absolutely. this module. as you — strong interest in. absolutely. this module, as you know, _ strong interest in. absolutely. this module, as you know, is— strong interest in. absolutely. this module, as you know, is focusing l strong interest in. absolutely. this. module, as you know, is focusing on core political and administrative decision—making, essentially decisions about the pandemic made in downing street and the cabinet office, and so the scope of my questions today will be on the role that you and nhs england took first of all in that decision—making, and also on issues that affected that decision—making. but we need to bear in mind that those operational matters, if you like, will be in subsequent modules. so let me start, if i may, by asking you what role do you think that you played in general terms in that core political decision—making in the period that you were in office during the pandemic? i you were in office during the pandemic?— pandemic? i think the main responsibility _ pandemic? i think the main responsibility is _ pandemic? i think the main responsibility is that - pandemic? i think the main responsibility is that we - pandemic? i think the main| responsibility is that we had pandemic? i think the main - responsibility is that we had and i had were to do everything we could to ensure that the nhs was able to look after severely ill covid patients and also all of the other non—covert patient during our care during the pandemic. so first of all it was about the availability of the nhs. we were not directly asked to contribute to debates that government was having about lock is an so—called non—pharmaceutical interventions or other ways of controlling the spread of the virus. i would just pause you there a moment, lord stevens. if you can try and keep your answers, try to speak relatively slowly and relatively short, that would help us. i will stop there. _ short, that would help us. i will stop there, then. _ short, that would help us. i will stop there, then. so _ short, that would help us. i will stop there, then. so you - short, that would help us. i will stop there, then. so you have l stop there, then. so you have described _ stop there, then. so you have described in _ stop there, then. so you have described in essence - stop there, then. so you have described in essence most - stop there, then. so you have described in essence most of| stop there, then. so you have - described in essence most of your work, and unsurprisingly given what you said was on operational matters, helping the nhs deal with covid, and of course also deal with all the other things it would have been dealing with anyway.— other things it would have been dealing with anyway. yes. had you said that you _ dealing with anyway. yes. had you said that you are _ dealing with anyway. jazz had you said that you are not routinely involved in those discussions about lockdown is. we can see and you describe in your statement, perhaps we can look at paragraph 13 of your statement on page five. you say that you did attempt several of the cobra meetings held in the early part of 2020. , meetings held in the early part of 2020.- several, _ meetings held in the early part of 2020. yes. several, all? may be can't remember _ 2020. yes. several, all? may be can't remember now. _ 2020. yes. several, all? may be can't remember now. probably l 2020. yes. several, all? may be - can't remember now. probably almost all, can't remember now. probably almost all. although — can't remember now. probably almost all. although the _ can't remember now. probably almost all, although the inquiry _ can't remember now. probably almost all, although the inquiry has _ can't remember now. probably almost all, although the inquiry has the - all, although the inquiry has the cobra minutes and that will show whether or not i was there. certainly a number in february and then in march, but cobra fell out of use as a mechanism by which the government decided to take its decisions and review progress against the pandemic, so that abated as a forum for this type of discussion.— as a forum for this type of discussion. ~ ., . ., , ., discussion. we have certainly heard that the cobra _ discussion. we have certainly heard that the cobra meetings _ discussion. we have certainly heard that the cobra meetings stopped, l discussion. we have certainly heard l that the cobra meetings stopped, but are you saying that you stopped going to them for that reason? i went to every cobra meeting i was asked to go to, as far as i'm aware. and was it routine either you or someone else from nhs england was invited to those meetings?— invited to those meetings? during february 2020. — invited to those meetings? during february 2020. i _ invited to those meetings? during february 2020, | think— invited to those meetings? during february 2020, | think that's - invited to those meetings? during | february 2020, i think that's right. and probably much as well. i would have to literally go back and look at all of the minutes, but that is my recollection, yes. you mentioned 'ust now, my recollection, yes. you mentioned just now. and — my recollection, yes. you mentioned just now. and you — my recollection, yes. you mentioned just now, and you describe _ my recollection, yes. you mentioned just now, and you describe in - my recollection, yes. you mentioned just now, and you describe in your i just now, and you describe in your statement, a view that these meetings were not, in your words, optimally effective. can you expand on that? . ~ , optimally effective. can you expand onthat? , g ., ., , ., on that? yes. my observation is that the cobra meetings _ on that? yes. my observation is that the cobra meetings were _ on that? yes. my observation is that the cobra meetings were very - on that? yes. my observation is that the cobra meetings were very large, so lots of people, which often makes it hard to have very substantial discussions. and sometimes the seniority of representation ministerial e at the cobras varied between departments, so it wasn't always the case that the minister had the full authority of the department when a discussion was taking place was my observation. 0thers taking place was my observation. others in government may take a different view.— different view. there is a particular— different view. there is a particular point - different view. there is a particular point you - different view. there is a | particular point you make different view. there is a - particular point you make which we can see in this paragraph on the screen, lord stevens, which is that when, as we know they were in the early stage, the cobra meetings were chaired by matt hancock, other secretaries of state sometimes avoided attending and sentjunior ministers instead. was that a reflection you had at the time? i’m reflection you had at the time? i'm not sa in: reflection you had at the time? in not saying that that was cause and effect, but that is the fact of the matter. �* , ., , . matter. i'm sorry, the inference in our matter. i'm sorry, the inference in your statement — matter. i'm sorry, the inference in your statement was _ matter. i'm sorry, the inference in your statement was that _ matter. i'm sorry, the inference in your statement was that it - matter. i'm sorry, the inference in your statement was that it was - matter. i'm sorry, the inference in i your statement was that it was cause and effect, but you are not going that far? i and effect, but you are not going that far? . and effect, but you are not going that far? , ., , , ., and effect, but you are not going that far? , ., ,, ., that far? i 'ust observed that those two that far? i just observed that those two coincided. _ that far? i just observed that those two coincided. can _ that far? i just observed that those two coincided. can you _ that far? i just observed that those two coincided. can you offer - that far? i just observed that those two coincided. can you offer a - that far? i just observed that those two coincided. can you offer a view as to whether _ two coincided. can you offer a view as to whether in _ two coincided. can you offer a view as to whether in light _ two coincided. can you offer a view as to whether in light of _ two coincided. can you offer a view as to whether in light of that, - two coincided. can you offer a view as to whether in light of that, the l as to whether in light of that, the final one and that you were observing, it would have been better for the prime minister to have chaired the cobra at the early stages. would it have ensured that more people attending those meetings? i more people attending those meetings?— more people attending those meetinus? “ , , meetings? i think it is very likely that had the _ meetings? i think it is very likely that had the prime _ meetings? i think it is very likely that had the prime minister- meetings? i think it is very likely l that had the prime minister shared those cobras that other people would have expected to go as well, but whether the substance of those meetings was such that not having all of those folks there made a big difference, i defer to others. just following down the page, lord stevens, you indicate that you did attend some cabinet committees, and i think you can see i'm not going to take you to the document, but you were an attendee of a health meeting in early 2020 which i think you did attend? i in early 2020 which i think you did attend? ~ ., in early 2020 which i think you did attend? ~' ., , ., ., attend? i think i went to several of them and not _ attend? i think i went to several of them and not all _ attend? i think i went to several of them and not all of _ attend? i think i went to several of them and not all of them, - attend? i think i went to several of them and not all of them, and - attend? i think i went to several of them and not all of them, and my| them and not all of them, and my statement, i did not consider that they were the most effective forum for resolving operational questions, shall i say, and that is why in fairly short order they were abolished and replaced by a different system.— abolished and replaced by a different system. abolished and replaced by a different s stem. , , different system. they were replaced b what we different system. they were replaced by what we came _ different system.