later in this e—mail we can see first of all the paragraph and a page you say, "my concern is at the moment the working environment culture is too much egotistical. " it would get the best outcomes and in the paragraph above, —— won't. you made the causative point that there are areas of policy that are suffering, you refer to domestic abuse and abortion. i will come back to some of those issues a little while but perhaps it is important to make it clear now you wantjust, it would have been important anyway to make the point that the treatment was bad but you felt there were real consequences of that treatment at the time. , , ., . , ., the time. yes, in my hierarchy of concerns to _ the time. yes, in my hierarchy of concerns to thing _ the time. yes, in my hierarchy of concerns to thing out _ the time. yes, in my hierarchy of concerns to thing out carried - the time. yes, in my hierarchy of concerns to thing out carried the | concerns to thing out carried the very most— concerns to thing out carried the very most about was whether we were putting _ very most about was whether we were putting our _ very most about was whether we were putting our best effort into trying to tackle — putting our best effort into trying to tackle with the country was faced with and _ to tackle with the country was faced with and i— to tackle with the country was faced with and i felt this particular set of attitudes and behaviours was getting — of attitudes and behaviours was getting in the way, as well as finding — getting in the way, as well as finding out personally not right. if finding out personally not right. if we finding out personally not right. we can finding out personally not right. if we can look back at the first page... i think we will see other people replied, let me ask you, did you get many responses to this e—mail? i you get many responses to this e-mail? ~' , ,., , , e-mail? i think everybody replied. what was the _ e-mail? i think everybody replied. what was the term? _ e-mail? i think everybody replied. what was the term? they - e-mail? i think everybody replied. what was the term? they were - e-mail? i think everybody replied. | what was the term? they were glad e-mail? i think everybody replied. i what was the term? they were glad i had raised it — what was the term? they were glad i had raised it and _ what was the term? they were glad i had raised it and gave _ what was the term? they were glad i had raised it and gave me _ had raised it and gave me useful examples — had raised it and gave me useful examples and said they would do what they could _ examples and said they would do what they could to help. this examples and said they would do what they could to help.— they could to help. this is mid aril, so they could to help. this is mid april. so it _ they could to help. this is mid april, so it would _ they could to help. this is mid april, so it would have - they could to help. this is mid april, so it would have been . they could to help. this is mid l april, so it would have been one they could to help. this is mid - april, so it would have been one of the steps that led to the review. yes although i don't think i would have _ yes although i don't think i would have seen— yes although i don't think i would have seen it like that at the time, i have seen it like that at the time, hust— have seen it like that at the time, ijust wanted to fix this particular problem — ijust wanted to fix this particular problem that i could see in front of me. �* ., , .., problem that i could see in front of me. �* ., , , me. but on this document we can see one of the people _ me. but on this document we can see one of the people who _ me. but on this document we can see one of the people who responded - me. but on this document we can see one of the people who responded was catherine hammond, a very senior civil servant in the cabinet contingencies secretariat. she said, "sadly i 100% agree this is an issue. those good she makes some proposals there. just moving on i wanted to ask you, apart from seeking people's views and we have also mentioned the review that you conducted, what further steps were taken to address this problem? you refer in your statement to the fact that just raising the issue helped but perhaps didn't change the fundamentals. did this problem go away or not?- this problem go away or not? know, but raising it — this problem go away or not? know, but raising it as _ this problem go away or not? know, but raising it as an _ this problem go away or not? know, but raising it as an issue _ this problem go away or not? know, but raising it as an issue and - but raising it as an issue and talking — but raising it as an issue and talking about it collectively helps peopie _ talking about it collectively helps people to feel more clear about the fact that _ people to feel more clear about the fact that it— people to feel more clear about the fact that it was ok for them individually to raise a concern. after— individually to raise a concern. after sending this e—mail in a number— after sending this e—mail in a numberof— after sending this e—mail in a number of conversations i then spoke to quite _ number of conversations i then spoke to quite a _ number of conversations i then spoke to quite a lot of people individually whose behaviour had been _ individually whose behaviour had been highlighted about what had been said and _ been highlighted about what had been said and a _ been highlighted about what had been said and a lot of those people then moderated their behaviour. i think in that— moderated their behaviour. i think in that footnote that didn't make it to the _ in that footnote that didn't make it to the final report, there is sometimes a gap between, they were very serious, these men, that they were _ very serious, these men, that they were worried about the sexism, yet they had _ were worried about the sexism, yet they had also sometimes done it, sometimes a consequence of working under— sometimes a consequence of working under pressure but once the issue was highlighted, lots of people changed but it didn't change the overall. — changed but it didn't change the overall, no. changed but it didn't change the overall. no— changed but it didn't change the overall, no. ., , , ., , , overall, no. perhaps related issue is the availability _ overall, no. perhaps related issue is the availability of _ overall, no. perhaps related issue is the availability of counselling. l is the availability of counselling. . if we can look, please, this is a document of tab 43, we move forward in the chronology a little bit, we are now in mid—june. this is an e—mail you sent to someone called carol bernard. you were there again drawing on your experience from the ground floor and no doubt to support you give to your staff in the aftermath. we can see what you have said. you talk about people breaking down in tears and trying to obtain some counselling for them. was that successful? ., some counselling for them. was that successful? ida. why not? some counselling for them. was that successful?- why not?— successful? no. why not? i am not sure i successful? no. why not? i am not sure i can — successful? no. why not? i am not sure i can answer _ successful? no. why not? i am not sure i can answer that. _ successful? no. why not? i am not sure i can answer that. it _ successful? no. why not? i am not sure i can answer that. it is - successful? no. why not? i am not sure i can answer that. it is of - sure i can answer that. it is of profound _ sure i can answer that. it is of profound cause of regret to me that we weren't— profound cause of regret to me that we weren't able to better support peopie _ we weren't able to better support people and i should just be really clear. _ people and i should just be really clear. i— people and i should just be really clear. i am — people and i should just be really clear, lam not in people and i should just be really clear, i am not in any way the hierarchy— clear, i am not in any way the hierarchy of people who more measurable times and had awful things— measurable times and had awful things happening in their lives and peopie _ things happening in their lives and people who had to deal with people dyin- people who had to deal with people dying from covid were busy dealing with something much worse and profound — with something much worse and profound. what i am talking about here is _ profound. what i am talking about here is that it is very difficult ireing — here is that it is very difficult ireing a — here is that it is very difficult being a central government in any case in _ being a central government in any case in these sorts of situations, never— case in these sorts of situations, never mind — case in these sorts of situations, never mind when you add all the externalities these people were dealing — externalities these people were dealing with. i do think it is a gap not to— dealing with. i do think it is a gap not to have — dealing with. i do think it is a gap not to have psychological support available — not to have psychological support available and i had been able to provide — available and i had been able to provide that in other departments i had worked in pretty easily at very low cost _ had worked in pretty easily at very low cost to — had worked in pretty easily at very low cost to the taxpayer in a way that was — low cost to the taxpayer in a way that was genuinely helpful for all the people working on those things and i don't — the people working on those things and i don't really understand why we couldn't— and i don't really understand why we couldn't do— and i don't really understand why we couldn't do that then. i and i don't really understand why we couldn't do that then.— couldn't do that then. i don't want to net couldn't do that then. i don't want to get into — couldn't do that then. i don't want to get into the _ couldn't do that then. i don't want to get into the detail, _ couldn't do that then. i don't want to get into the detail, but - couldn't do that then. i don't want to get into the detail, but we - couldn't do that then. i don't want to get into the detail, but we see | to get into the detail, but we see one e—mail here where you are trying to obtain some counselling, did you leave it at that for the you press? i pressed a number of times in a number— i pressed a number of times in a numberof— i pressed a number of times in a numberof different i pressed a number of times in a number of different ways. just movin: number of different ways. just moving on _ number of different ways. just moving on a — number of different ways. just moving on a little _ number of different ways. just moving on a little bit but sticking with these issues, that were thrown up with these issues, that were thrown up on your return and to review you undertook, one way of describing what was shown although i am not sure these exact words are in your view, it would be was a toxic culture in downing street and a cabinet office at the time. and the inquiry has heard evidence, yesterday, of the repeated use of extremely crude language, in for example what's set between member of the downing street team, —— whatsapp, was at one aspect or perhaps a product of that type of toxic culture you are reporting on your review?— toxic culture you are reporting on your review? there was definitely a toxic culture. _ your review? there was definitely a toxic culture. the _ your review? there was definitely a toxic culture. the inquiry _ your review? there was definitely a toxic culture. the inquiry saw - toxic culture. the inquiry saw yesterday _ toxic culture. the inquiry saw yesterday some _ toxic culture. the inquiry saw yesterday some particularly l toxic culture. the inquiry saw - yesterday some particularly crude whatsapp micro—exchanges between dominic cummings and boris about you and about your possible departure from the cabinet office. let me ask you, was dominic cummings part of that toxic culture, part of the problem? it that toxic culture, part of the problem?— that toxic culture, part of the roblem? ., , , ., problem? it would be helpfulfor me to make a couple _ problem? it would be helpfulfor me to make a couple comments - problem? it would be helpfulfor me to make a couple comments about l to make a couple comments about those _ to make a couple comments about those messages. the first is i think it is important to understand what was actually happening at the time. it isn't _ was actually happening at the time. it isn't out — was actually happening at the time. it isn't out true that the prime minister— it isn't out true that the prime minister had offered me any number of permanent secretaryjobs in order to leave _ of permanent secretaryjobs in order to leave the — of permanent secretaryjobs in order to leave the cabinet office during that period of time. —— undoubtedly true _ that period of time. —— undoubtedly true i— that period of time. —— undoubtedly true i had — that period of time. —— undoubtedly true. i had repeatedly explained i wasn't _ true. i had repeatedly explained i wasn't going to participate in another— wasn't going to participate in another of my colleagues being moved on in order— another of my colleagues being moved on in order to create a job for me. so we _ on in order to create a job for me. so we had — on in order to create a job for me. so we had been having this exchange a period _ so we had been having this exchange a period of— so we had been having this exchange a period of time. the things mr cummings, having seen those messages, it is horrible to read, but it— messages, it is horrible to read, but it is— messages, it is horrible to read, but it is both surprising and not surprising — but it is both surprising and not surprising to me. i don't know which is worse _ surprising to me. i don't know which is worse i— surprising to me. i don't know which is worse. i think he was frustrated with me _ is worse. i think he was frustrated with me at — is worse. i think he was frustrated with me at the time. i would absolutely on that. i would also say all i was _ absolutely on that. i would also say all i was doing was actually working in the _ all i was doing was actually working in the service of the then prime minister— in the service of the then prime minister and defending his interests. i am sure lots of this this is— interests. i am sure lots of this this is not— interests. i am sure lots of this this is not for you but the two things— this is not for you but the two things in— this is not for you but the two things in particular that he was cross— things in particular that he was cross about, one was the appointment of david _ cross about, one was the appointment of david frost is a national security— of david frost is a national security adviser, where the proposal was that— security adviser, where the proposal was that mr— security adviser, where the proposal was that mr frost, who had left the civil service — was that mr frost, who had left the civil service as a director and then taken _ civil service as a director and then taken on — civil service as a director and then taken on a — civil service as a director and then taken on a very significant political— taken on a very significant political roles, tb then reappointed into the _ political roles, tb then reappointed into the civil service as a permanent secretary and put in charge — permanent secretary and put in charge of— permanent secretary and put in charge of national security, and for reasons— charge of national security, and for reasons i— charge of national security, and for reasons i don't probably have dick io reasons i don't probably have dick go into— reasons i don't probably have dick go into i— reasons i don't probably have dick go into i thought that was wrong, so i wouldn't _ go into i thought that was wrong, so i wouldn't let that happen. i had in fact come — i wouldn't let that happen. i had in fact come up with the proposal that would _ fact come up with the proposal that would fulfil with the prime minister most wanted which is mr frost to john the — most wanted which is mr frost to john the lords and be a minister i felt that— john the lords and be a minister i felt that was more proper and have accountability. mr cummings and those _ accountability. mr cummings and those messages is also frustrated with me _ those messages is also frustrated with me and says that i was sucking special— with me and says that i was sucking special advisers, which i never did, -- sacking — special advisers, which i never did, —— sacking special advisers. he was cross— —— sacking special advisers. he was cross in— —— sacking special advisers. he was cross in august because we were involved — cross in august because we were involved in— cross in august because we were involved in the employment tribunal where _ involved in the employment tribunal where he _ involved in the employment tribunal where he had in fact dismissed the special— where he had in fact dismissed the special adviser and i was insisting on him _ special adviser and i was insisting on him telling the truth of the employment tribunal, and he didn't respond _ employment tribunal, and he didn't respond well to that. surprising and not surprising. it wasn't a pleasant ptace _ not surprising. it wasn't a pleasant place to— not surprising. it wasn't a pleasant place to work. | not surprising. it wasn't a pleasant place to work-— place to work. i think it follows from what _ place to work. i think it follows from what you _ place to work. i think it follows from what you say _ place to work. i think it follows from what you say that - place to work. i think it follows from what you say that those l place to work. i think it follows - from what you say that those e-mails from what you say that those e—mails we saw in your view absolutely are it be —like, evidence or way in which we can gauge the type of toxic culture that you and others were experiencing at the time. it is also exactly the — experiencing at the time. it is also exactly the wrong _ experiencing at the time. it is also exactly the wrong attitude - experiencing at the time. it is also exactly the wrong attitude to - experiencing at the time. it is also exactly the wrong attitude to the l exactly the wrong attitude to the civil service, if i may, iwas exactly the wrong attitude to the civil service, if i may, i was doing myioh _ civil service, if i may, i was doing myioh as— civil service, if i may, i was doing myioh as a — civil service, if i may, i was doing myjob as a civil servant and i'm confident— myjob as a civil servant and i'm confident about that. the way in which _ confident about that. the way in which it— confident about that. the way in which it was considered appropriate to describe what should happen to me yes is— to describe what should happen to me yes is a _ to describe what should happen to me yes is a woman but yes a civil servant. _ yes is a woman but yes a civil servant. it— yes is a woman but yes a civil servant, it is disappointing to me that the — servant, it is disappointing to me that the prime minister didn't pick him up _ that the prime minister didn't pick him up on — that the prime minister didn't pick him up on the use of some of that violent— him up on the use of some of that violent and — him up on the use of some of that violent and misogynistic language. that was— violent and misogynistic language. that was going to be my next question because mr cummings has been asked about the messages he sent, but of course the point you make, we have see