those interviews you conducted on your own or with mr owen? i think martin and — your own or with mr owen? i think martin and l _ your own or with mr owen? i think martin and i did _ your own or with mr owen? i think martin and i did most _ your own or with mr owen? i think martin and i did most together - your own or with mr owen? i think| martin and i did most together and there _ martin and i did most together and there may— martin and i did most together and there may be a couple in number ten idid there may be a couple in number ten idid and— there may be a couple in number ten idid and a_ there may be a couple in number ten i did and a couple in the cabinet office _ i did and a couple in the cabinet office by— i did and a couple in the cabinet office by me in the interests of time _ office by me in the interests of time but — office by me in the interests of time but mr reynolds was also really concerned _ time but mr reynolds was also really concerned about what he could see about _ concerned about what he could see about how — concerned about what he could see about how people were feeling so it was something we did together. let�*s was something we did together. let's look at the report _ was something we did together. let�*s look at the report itself. that is tab 22. it is on the screen. i'm not going to go in any detail because as you know it went through various drafts i think you see on your statement this final draft, who words may have been too kind and following that train of thought that as other stuff in the drafts i want to ask about. looking at this we see the date, may 2020 and your name and that of mr reynolds. it does not say who it is addressed to a ticket from your earlier answer addressed to the prime minister and cabinet secretary. they would have both a copy of this? secretary. they would have both a cap)! of this?— copy of this? yes, they were both civen a copy of this? yes, they were both given a cow _ copy of this? yes, they were both given a cap)! of — copy of this? yes, they were both given a cepv of it _ copy of this? yes, they were both given a copy of it as _ given a copy of it as far as i understand. the cabinet secretary certainly _ understand. the cabinet secretary certainly had it. let understand. the cabinet secretary certainly had it.— certainly had it. let me follow on from there- _ certainly had it. let me follow on from there. did _ certainly had it. let me follow on from there. did you _ certainly had it. let me follow on from there. did you discuss - certainly had it. let me follow on from there. did you discuss the l from there. did you discuss the contents of this document with either the cabinet secretary or the premise minister or both? i premise minister or both? i discussed it with the cabinet secretary. discussed it with the cabinet secretary-— discussed it with the cabinet secreta . ., secretary. not with the prime minister? _ secretary. not with the prime minister? no, _ secretary. not with the prime minister? no, i— secretary. not with the prime minister? no, ithink- secretary. not with the prime minister? no, i think martin | secretary. not with the prime i minister? no, i think martin was auoin to minister? no, i think martin was going to discuss _ minister? no, i think martin was going to discuss it _ minister? no, i think martin was going to discuss it and _ minister? no, i think martin was going to discuss it and there - minister? no, i think martin was going to discuss it and there is l going to discuss it and there is nothing — going to discuss it and there is nothing to— going to discuss it and there is nothing to read into that. i would have _ nothing to read into that. i would have probably had a much more conversation with marc sidwell because — conversation with marc sidwell because it was more about operation management and how we set things up and the _ management and how we set things up and the prime minister is often the customer— and the prime minister is often the customer of the answer not architect of the _ customer of the answer not architect of the solution and i remember us talking _ of the solution and i remember us talking through both what i had heard _ talking through both what i had heard and what we would do about it is a shared _ heard and what we would do about it is a shared problem. let�*s heard and what we would do about it is a shared problem.— is a shared problem. let's look at a draft of this — is a shared problem. let's look at a draft of this document, _ is a shared problem. let's look at a draft of this document, tab - is a shared problem. let's look at a draft of this document, tab 29, - draft of this document, tab 29, 136755. they are very broadly the same and people should not get the idea that a huge differences between the versions. i want to focus on paragraph two of this document, headed the culture is not getting the best from people. this is a document the inquiry has seen before but nonetheless what is included in this paragraph are striking, your conclusion where the organisation was not working as one team between the cabinet office and number ten, looking a couple of lines down, not sustainable, people are exhausted and stressed, don't feel confident or empowered to take decisions, universal sense of powerlessness. trying to do too much so nothing is done well. views ignored, bad behaviours from senior leaders tolerated. too many people behaving as if they have been parachuted in to save the day. lots of people mentioned ginger women being talked over or ignored and then there is a footnote saying some of the people who made that observation were themselves people who had been talking overjunior women. i think the footnote did not make it into the footnote did not make it into the final draft. and then we need a modern culture of organised collaboration not a superhero bun fight. very similar point was put to lord o'donnell, in the context of this crisis which is now well under way, and the degree of centrality the cabinet office and number ten had in trying to address the crisis, to read these conclusions about the state of morale and ways of working within the cabinet office is pretty devastated, isn't it? i within the cabinet office is pretty devastated, isn't it?— within the cabinet office is pretty devastated, isn't it? ithink it was re devastated, isn't it? ithink it was pretty devastating. _ devastated, isn't it? ithink it was pretty devastating. it _ devastated, isn't it? ithink it was pretty devastating. it is _ devastated, isn't it? ithink it was pretty devastating. it is accurate. | pretty devastating. it is accurate. ithint— pretty devastating. it is accurate. i think it — pretty devastating. it is accurate. i think it is — pretty devastating. it is accurate. i think it is important to recognise the fact— i think it is important to recognise the fact there was not a plan and the fact there was not a plan and the system and therefore everybody was working to try to run to catch up was working to try to run to catch up with— was working to try to run to catch up with themselves and also extremely worried and anxious about what was _ extremely worried and anxious about what was happening, filling all these — what was happening, filling all these different kinds of responsibility, it would sort of be amazing — responsibility, it would sort of be amazing given that there was not a plan it— amazing given that there was not a plan it was— amazing given that there was not a plan it was this perfectly well ordered — plan it was this perfectly well ordered and organised experience stop not— ordered and organised experience stop not everybody was behaving badly, _ stop not everybody was behaving badly, so — stop not everybody was behaving badly, so it was important to highlight the things that were going wrong _ highlight the things that were going wrong and the fact there were a big cultural— wrong and the fact there were a big cultural issues but there were also loads— cultural issues but there were also loads of— cultural issues but there were also loads of people not doing that. particularly my criticism of actual environment does not mean it was all the men _ environment does not mean it was all the men talking over women all the time and _ the men talking over women all the time and human beings are messy and complicated _ time and human beings are messy and complicated and this was an extraordinary pressured and difficult _ extraordinary pressured and difficult situation and people were working _ difficult situation and people were working outside of their structures and competence and were frightened and competence and were frightened and it— and competence and were frightened and it is— and competence and were frightened and it is not surprising at all to me that — and it is not surprising at all to me that did not bring out the best in some _ me that did not bring out the best in some people. i think the important thing is how do you make sure when— important thing is how do you make sure when anybody is in those sort of situations again those structures and systems that mitigate against what will — and systems that mitigate against what will happen to human beings and that situation and that is what we were _ that situation and that is what we were missing. and that situation and that is what we were missing-— were missing. and what you are t in: to were missing. and what you are trying to address _ were missing. and what you are trying to address with _ were missing. and what you are trying to address with this - were missing. and what you are i trying to address with this report. imperfectly but yes. the trying to address with this report. imperfectly but yes.— imperfectly but yes. the term soberhero _ imperfectly but yes. the term superhero bun _ imperfectly but yes. the term superhero bun fight _ imperfectly but yes. the term superhero bun fight as - imperfectly but yes. the term superhero bun fight as i - imperfectly but yes. the term superhero bun fight as i think| imperfectly but yes. the term | superhero bun fight as i think a term that did not make it into the final report. i think maybe martin reynolds came up with that phrase. so much it wasjohn owen, actually. you have made it clear you're not talking about everyone but clearly there was a problem, as this is a similar issue to that match your overconfidence you were describing in january overconfidence you were describing injanuary and overconfidence you were describing in january and february overconfidence you were describing injanuary and february or not? that in january and february or not? that is a aood in january and february or not? that is a good question. you don't take the culture — is a good question. you don't take the culture to the extremes from nowhere — the culture to the extremes from nowhere i— the culture to the extremes from nowhere i imagine, so i think that match— nowhere i imagine, so i think that match shall— nowhere i imagine, so i think that match shall confident bravado —— match _ match shall confident bravado —— match show —— macho bravado made it ok to _ match show —— macho bravado made it ok to work— match show —— macho bravado made it ok to work in _ match show —— macho bravado made it ok to work in a — match show —— macho bravado made it ok to work in a way it really was not but — ok to work in a way it really was not but i — ok to work in a way it really was not but i think if i had been working _ not but i think if i had been working for mrs may that would not have happened because it was not in the dna _ have happened because it was not in the dna. probably out of kindness to john 0wen— the dna. probably out of kindness to john owen i did not include his phrase — john owen i did not include his phrase in — john owen i did not include his phrase in the final report because we were — phrase in the final report because we were also trying to be moderate. but i we were also trying to be moderate. but i think— we were also trying to be moderate. but i think it is a good illustration of the strength of feeling — illustration of the strength of feeling and how alien some of this practice _ feeling and how alien some of this practice was particularly for us as civil servants that you do not normally— civil servants that you do not normally behave in these ways and definitely _ normally behave in these ways and definitely in the domestic part of the civil— definitely in the domestic part of the civil service this is quite an unusual— the civil service this is quite an unusual culture to work in. there is a assaue unusual culture to work in. there is a passage in _ unusual culture to work in. there is a passage in your — unusual culture to work in. there is a passage in your statement - unusual culture to work in. there is a passage in your statement when l unusual culture to work in. there is i a passage in your statement when you talk about no doubt generalising, to different sorts of civil servants, one high ego people and on the other hand invisible people and that the system working best with the balance of those two types. the conclusion perhaps was perhaps the balance had got out of balance during this period. i got out of balance during this eriod. ~' .. got out of balance during this eriod. ,, .. ., period. i think the parachuted in to save the day _ period. i think the parachuted in to save the day thing _ period. i think the parachuted in to save the day thing was _ period. i think the parachuted in to save the day thing was a _ period. i think the parachuted in to save the day thing was a real - save the day thing was a real problem _ save the day thing was a real problem. there were lots of new people _ problem. there were lots of new people and they all rightly felt a sense _ people and they all rightly felt a sense of— people and they all rightly felt a sense of mission and purpose and wanted _ sense of mission and purpose and wanted to— sense of mission and purpose and wanted to help and that is a great thing _ wanted to help and that is a great thing when things are broken, people who run— thing when things are broken, people who run towards broken things, but if you _ who run towards broken things, but if you get— who run towards broken things, but if you get 15— who run towards broken things, but if you get 15 people will think individually they will save the day that is _ individually they will save the day that is not — individually they will save the day that is not making a happy organisational culture. let's talk about another _ organisational culture. let's talk about another issue _ organisational culture. let's talk about another issue you - organisational culture. let's talk i about another issue you identified, the question ofjunior women being talked over or ignored. you describe in your statement noticing a marked change in your return in this respect. let's look at page 50 paragraph 99 at the beginning of that paragraph you see the mac say when i got back to the office other women who worked there are number ten sought me out to say how pleased they were to see a woman at the table again and you see you were surprised by that because because although the cabinet office and number ten historically had not been perfect in these terms the issue between men and women not been a matter of comment before but it was now. you see before covid i would not have categorised number ten of the cabinet office as a particularly abnormally sexist environment within the context of whitehall and westminster which you say are endemic tely sexist. —— endemically but you see it became from being a murmur roar in the next few weeks and women were missed out from decision—making. and you see that women would worked in number ten and the cabinet office for some time filling they have become overnight. can you help explain what seems to have been a very marked change? it have been a very marked change? it was striking and i think the two points— was striking and i think the two points are _ was striking and i think the two points are related but different. i do not _ points are related but different. i do not know if it was a consequence of the _ do not know if it was a consequence of the psychological pressure people were under but it was really, really obvious— were under but it was really, really obvious that not only where there and when — obvious that not only where there and when the weather they had to turn their— and when the weather they had to turn their screens off when they were _ turn their screens off when they were in— turn their screens off when they were in zoom meetings are sitting on the back— were in zoom meetings are sitting on the back row— were in zoom meetings are sitting on the back row and there were not any women _ the back row and there were not any women talking which is unusual and related _ women talking which is unusual and related to _ women talking which is unusual and related to that women whose job it was to— related to that women whose job it was to do— related to that women whose job it was to do something were not able to do their— was to do something were not able to do theirjobs properly because they were not— do theirjobs properly because they were not having the space are being asked _ were not having the space are being asked the _ were not having the space are being asked the right questions are being treated _ asked the right questions are being treated with the respect they would do and _ treated with the respect they would do and it— treated with the respect they would do and it was both striking and awful— do and it was both striking and awful and _ do and it was both striking and awful and then the fact there were no women — awful and then the fact there were no women contributing to policy discussions, a problem in itself because — discussions, a problem in itself because there were expert women not bein- because there were expert women not being listened to, and also women were _ being listened to, and also women were being looked over. last reference — were being looked over. last reference on _ were being looked over. last reference on this _ were being looked over. last reference on this point, i were being looked over. last reference on this point, page 52, paragraph 102. he described a bit more of the experience, women working in number ten in the cabinet office experiencing very obvious sexist treatment and you say it was impacting on their work and the dominant culture was macho and heroic, neitherthe dominant culture was macho and heroic, neither the preserve of men, but the culture was problematic because the bait and discussion is limited and junior people were talked over felt that everything was contaminated by ego, it was positively unhelpful when the country needed thoughtful and reflective decision—making. you say again that word macho, it is at least a close relation of the environment, the atmosphere you were describing from february and march. yes. ., , , , , ., describing from february and march. yes. ., , , describing from february and march. yes. ., , yes. you express your concerns about it at the time _ yes. you express your concerns about it at the time and _ yes. you express your concerns about it at the time and they _ yes. you express your concerns about it at the time and they were _ yes. you express your concerns about it at the time and they were shared i it at the time and they were shared by others. if we can look towards the bottom of that page, this is an e—mail that you sent, i don't think we have a c°pyr you sent, i don't think we have a copy, but the sense is it was to a group of women in a cabinet office at number 10. group of women in a cabinet office at number10. it group of women in a cabinet office at number 10. it stated on the 13th of april, a week or so after you got back, and is it right, i want to read through the whole e—mail, but you are drawing attention to some of the very themes we have just been discussing, is that? the the very themes we have 'ust been discussing, is that?_ discussing, is that? the reason i sent this e-mail _ discussing, is that? the reason i sent this e-mail was _ discussing, is that? the reason i sent this e-mail was partly i discussing, is that? the reason i sent this e-mail was partly may | discussing, is that? the reason i i sent this e-mail was partly mayjust sent this e—mail was partly mayjust checking _ sent this e—mail was partly mayjust checking that what i was understanding was right, so that is why i_ understanding was right, so that is why i this, — understanding was right, so that is why i this, it was worrying me what i why i this, it was worrying me what i heard _ why i this, it was worrying me what i heard and — why i this, it was worrying me what i heard and i— why i this, it was worrying me what i heard and i wanted to make sure i was right— i heard and i wanted to make sure i was right that this was a big problem, not an individual one. if problem, not an individual one. if we problem, not an individual one. we just problem, not an individual one. if we just briefly look over the page, later in this e—mail we can see