foreign minister abdallah bou habib in beirut, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. mr foreign minister, ijust wonder whether right now it feels to you like this conflict is spiralling out of control. you are watching it from beirut as the war rages in gaza between israel and hamas. but do you fear it is going to spread much wider? well, we are afraid that it may spread. but i can say that i am now less pessimistic than i was at the beginning. i think here there is a conviction, at least in lebanon, that we don't want war. we have a lot of problems, economic, political and social problems, and everyone in lebanon does not want war. but it all depends on israel. israel also threatened us many times, to have a pre—emptive strike on lebanon, and what's happening in gaza. i mean, you cannot...you know, the people here are interrelated. we have half a million palestinians in lebanon. and, you know, there are a lot of people that are resistance minded. they're not only in lebanon. in syria and jordan and iraq, and they would alljoin the war if things got worse in gaza. you say it all depends on israel. surely you have to accept that it all also depends upon hezbollah, backed by iran, which has a very strong military force on your territory in lebanon. hezbollah is a key player right now, is it not? that's true. hezbollah�*s a big player. and we are talking to hezbollah. the government is talking to hezbollah. i don't want to say we have an understanding. no. we really think that hezbollah is not going to start a big war unless things get very, very, very bad in gaza, or unless israel strikes first in a bad way, you know, like the way the minister of defense talked about it and it was reported in american press. hezbollah, of course, is a proscribed organisation, labelled as a terror organisation in many western capitals. and what we have seen in the last couple of weeks since hamas�*s october 7th assault on southern israel, we have seen fierce but sporadic clashes along your southern border, the northern border of israel. they've cost dozens of lives. they've displaced many lebanese civilians and indeed forced many israelis from their homes in towns and settlements close to the lebanese border. is it your opinion, going back to your optimism, that these clashes are currently being limited on both sides? yes. well, first, let me say, you know, terrorism is a relative thing. remember, the plo was a terrorist organisation, and suddenly mr arafat, the late mr arafat, was in new york, was in geneva, was in washington, was everywhere. so let's see. there is a problem in the middle east, and if israel accepts and the west accepts to deal with this problem, all of these organisations that you're calling... ..that you're calling terrorists, they would become the other side talking about it, you know? so let's be careful of using the word. i understand the west taking the word, taking the side that they are terrorist organisations, but here, i come back to lebanon. lebanon...israel. i mean, first, that hezbollah did not at all make threats to israel. the leader of hezbollah never made a speech up until now. and this is 23 days. so the leaders of hezbollah here also are very moderate and talking. and we think that israel is starting all of these problems on our border and their border. so we ask for israel to go to the united nations and ask for 48 hours a ceasefire, and we'll see what happens. yeah. we need to be very clear. we need to be very clear about what is happening and who is saying what. you say the leader of hezbollah in your country, lebanon, hassan nasrallah, has said very little — it's true — said very little since october 7th. he didn't say anything. the deputy leader of hezbollah, sheik naim qassem, said this. he said that hezbollah�*s finger is on the trigger to whatever extent it deems necessary for the ongoing confrontation with israel. in essence, you have no power, no agency over hezbollah, and how can you possibly know what hezbollah�*s intentions are? look, we talk all the time. they are lebanese. we dialogue all the time. we know their intentions. ok, we have impression of their intentions. it's not like they tell us. no, like any resistance movement, when the country is occupied, you have a resistance movement, and hezbollah is one of them now. so let's call a spade a spade... sorry, minister. your country... israel... your country... minister, your country is not occupied. i mean, hezbollah regards israel... oh, yes. the zionist entity, as it calls it, as an illegitimate nation, but your country, lebanon, is not occupied by israeli forces. let's be clear. partly, we have... stephen... no, we have part of lebanon occupied... ..and it is... the south—east of lebanon is partly occupied by israel. and most of the guns of hezbollah are targeting israel there, in that land. not in pure israeli land, if you want to say, so, no, it is occupied. and in 2000, when israel withdrew, that part remain in dispute. and we think that it is an occupation and they have to leave. and israel was asked many times to leave. if i may say so, you're talking about tiny pocket of territory. i believe it's known as the shebaa farms area, which is one tiny pocket of disputed territory. but more important, i think... what difference does it make, whether it's tiny or not? it's our land. if i may say so, more important than one tiny pocket of disputed territory is the agenda in tehran. you would not dispute, i am sure, that iran funds and arms hezbollah. now, two weeks ago, we saw a visit from iran's foreign minister to lebanon. i believe you met him, but hassan nasrallah, the leader of hezbollah, met him as well. what do you believe was the end result of those consultations? you know, i'll tell you what i heard from the foreign minister, because i met him, as you said. the one thing is that they had no knowledge of the hamas attack at all. second, he said that, "yes, we are in contact with hamas." and third, he said that hamas can stand for a long time, for a few months, you know, repelling the israeli attack. that's what he told us at that time, which means that nobody is going to start a front, a realfront, in the south of lebanon. and i saw him also in the oic meeting, the organisation of islamic countries, injeddah. and he was talking there about when are the americans going to call for a ceasefire? so up until now, he's talking about a ceasefire. i'm not defending him. i'm just stating what i heard from him. and so, yes, they give weapons to hezbollah. no doubt about that. we know that. and there is a group of countries that are, you know, against israel, of course. but the issue at the end is, there are palestinians... for 75 years, they're waiting for a political solution that didn't come. we have to look at the roots of the problem. the roots of the problem is creating a palestinian state, according to the un decision in 1947. foreign minister, the iranians refer to an axis of resistance and that includes their support for hamas. it includes their support for hezbollah, and it includes groups they support in yemen, and of course, it includes their allies in the government of syria. now, ijust wonder where you think lebanon... and iraq... hang on. ..also. indeed, there are elements there, too, but where does lebanon line up when it comes to its view of what is legitimate in israel? what we saw from hamas was a murderous, brutal assault on southern israel which left 1,400 people dead, including, we know, women and children. now, there are some in the arab world, including in the gulf states, the uae, and a big speech by a saudi prince, who made it clear that not only were they very concerned about israel's response, but they were deeply concerned about what they regarded as the illegitimate actions of hamas. are you prepared, also, to condemn illegitimate actions by hamas? look, i hate to see civilians being killed, and i cannot tell the difference between what hamas did on october 7th and what israel is doing now. and what israel is doing now is, with the permission of western countries, is against all international humanitarian laws that the west has put. it is not the east or the islamic countries that put these laws, and it's breaking these laws. look what's happening to gaza. is this revenge? revenge does not go... international human law... ..humanitarian laws does not call for revenge. proportional... a defence, ok. so what i'm saying is that, yes, i would have said that. i hate to see civilians being killed. i would have said that when it happened, but now, with what israel is doing, i can't say that at all. they are doing worse than what hamas did on october 7th. what do you mean, you would have said it? did you say it on october 8th? did you come out as foreign minister of lebanon and condemn hamas�*s brutal murder of civilians? we... a few days later, after that, we met in cairo, arab foreign ministers, and we said we condemn the killing of civilians from all sides. this is what we said at that time. and cairo, it was a statement by the arab foreign ministers. there were some countries that objected to it, but lebanon agreed to it. let's get back to... but now, how can you say that? yeah. let's get back to the important point about agency, about power inside your own country. now, you are a senior representative of the lebanese government, but isn't there a fundamental problem here that if you look at the reality on the ground in the south of your country, hezbollah fighters are there in their tens of thousands. they possess an arsenal of rockets, which is said to number some 150,000. and there is no sense at all in which the lebanese national armed forces have any power or control over hezbollah. how is that acceptable to you, as a senior member of the national government? yes, hezbollah is a political party in lebanon and we dialogue with them all the time. the military part of it is a regional problem, no doubt about that at all. and it has to do a lot not only with iran, as you said a while ago, it has to do a lot with what's happening in the west bank and in gaza and what's happening to the palestinians who have been...who are refugees in all countries of the arab world, and they've been waiting for 75 years to find a solution. so look at the reaction of the west on... minister... with respect, minister, hezbollah is a shia militia. it is not peopled by palestinians. you have 600,000 palestinian refugees in your country, but they are not the basis of hezbollah. hezbollah, when it comes down to it, is backed, funded and strategically controlled from iran. iran has an agenda which includes the destruction of the state of israel. you know that if there is a hot war in the coming weeks and months on your border with israel, that israel, and officials have said this to you openly, israel will hold you, the lebanese government, accountable for letting hezbollah use your territory as a platform. it will be a disaster for you. well, let me say a couple of things on that. first, lebanon adopted... the arab summit of 2002, which was in beirut, we adopted to have peace. there is an arab initiative to have peace with israel, and israel refused it at that time. 0k? so we want peace. we are students of peace. we are a country of peace. we are not a country of war. we don't like wars. we don't like the killing of people. we've had enough of it, we think. 0k? the other thing is that, you know, you have... this is a problem in the region. you have to have a solution for it and israel has to accept solution. they never think about the day after, except killing and killing and killing. this is not a solution. and i think the west, by giving israel the right for self—defence, they are giving them a licence to kill. and this is unacceptable, really. and this stands to have really between the east and the west a big... ..you know, a big difference of how to look at things. and this is not healthy because the middle east and europe, especially, are interrelated so much historically that if one sneezes, the other catches the cold. so we need to work together in order to solve the problems of the middle east, and not to accuse...to corner on something, terrorists or not terrorists, because terrorists of today... if i may, i want to bring it back to something very specific, which is your responsibilities to your own people in lebanon. i mean, to be very specific about it, even before october 7th, israel's defense minister, yoav gallant, had said that if hezbollah launches strikes deep into israel, israel's military will reduce — to paraphrase him — reduce lebanon back to the stone age. and after october 7th, president isaac herzog said, "if hezbollah drags us into a war, it will be clear "lebanon will pay the price. "lebanon cannot be a sovereign nation in the international "community and then say, when it comes to israel, "�*oh, we are not responsible for these attacks.”' so i ask you one more time, what are you going to do? what are you going to do to stop hezbollah launching strikes deep into israel? well, first, what are you going to do to stop...? because if you read the new york times and nobody denied it, it was the minister of defense of israel who is preparing to have a pre—emptive strike on lebanon. so we are talking with all western ambassadors and all ambassadors here and outside. so we are dealing with hezbollah. we are trying all our way, and they are aware of the situation in lebanon. and therefore, you've got to be aware — they are the people who are threatening every day. and how come that a country like israel can live next to a country, the stone age? how can they live together? how can they live with a country like gaza, which is destroyed ? they have to think about this carefully. the arab world has accepted israel and therefore israel has to accept the arab world and to accept its neighbours. more or less, we tried around a few months ago to have aligned borders, you know, between us. they refused to do it. these borders, if they accept to have a final demarcation, because we have demarcation in 1923, the british and the french did it, and there was the truce of 19119, which confirmed this demarcation. i'm interested... now we want to align them, and they refuse to deal with us. yeah, i'm interested. you talk as a man who says he wants peace with israel, and i know that israel and lebanon managed through third parties to reach some sort of a deal on the oilfields offshore. but the point is, hezbollah�*s presence on your territory means that there is no prospect of a peace between you and israel any time soon. just one more diplomatic question, as you are the foreign minister, what are you saying to the americans right now, who've got two aircraft carrier battle groups in the eastern mediterranean, which may well get engaged if there is a war on the so—called northern front? what are you saying to the americans? i doubt if the americans would get involved in that, because america is the only country in this world that can mediate. at the end, we need the peace, and america is the only country that can do that. and if they lose this role, god knows what happens. and i'm saying to them, i'm talking to their ambassador... our diplomats in washington are talking there and when we see them in new york last time, we talked the same language — let us have peace. we want a ceasefire. let's talk about the future. what is the day after? can israel live like this all its life? for how many years it can live there? all in troubles... the countries around it. we are a country of peace. we are not a country of war. we never declared war against israel. yes, we have hezbollah, and hezbollah to them is a problem. and also, its a problem to a lot of people in lebanon as well. but this is a fact on the ground that we have to deal with it. and we are dialoguing with hezbollah all the time. and i am kind of have the impression that made me convinced they don't want to start a war, and israel is using all kind of weapons against us. phosphorous bombs is being thrown on us, on our fields, on our people. and we are complaining today, we sent a letter, i signed a letter to the united nations to complain to the security council, to complain about this and for the united nations to do something about it. the israelis, of course, have we denied... so, really... the israelis have denied your accusations. before we end, i want to ask you a question, an internal question. there are a lot of... i want to ask you an internal question about lebanon, if i may, foreign minister, before we close. you don't have a fully functional government at the moment. you have a caretaker prime minister. the nation doesn't have a president. that's true. hasn't had a president for one year. your economy is in freefall. that's right. more than half your population live in poverty. your currency is virtually worthless. one of your own cabinet ministers, amin salam, the other day after a cabinet meeting, said that if the current political climate leads to war, then lebanon, as a country, could fall apart completely. do you agree with him? no, i don't agree with him. i think lebanon is a country. the lebanese want lebanon to stay a full—fledged country. we have political problems. in europe, there are problems like that. the world is divided in these days. and i think if some countries from europe would stop interfering in our domestic affairs, we would elect a president sooner than later. i'm not saying... i'm not at all defending the situation in lebanon, whether it is political or economic, they are very, very bad. but i want to invite you to come to beirut and see beirut and see that we are still living despite everything. well, yeah, you smile and you say that, but i come back to the economy. i mean, millions and millions of lebanese people are living in dire poverty. they don't have access to dollars, and their lebanese pounds are virtually worthless. the country cannot continue on its current course, can it? and if war comes, a real war, a hot war on your border with israel, the country is facing catastrophe. i agree with you that... ..the war would be tremendously bad for lebanon. but i tell you, lebanon is 5 million people. 1 million of us are living in europe, africa and the gulf, and they all have their families here in lebanon. and they send money to their families and they finance theirfamilies here. and they come always to lebanon. the summer was really, because of them, was very, very hot, both weatherwise and moneywise. so it's not like we are in damn poverty. you know, there are lots of poverty in lebanon. we're helping a lot of others and some international organisations are also helping us. but also, we have 2 million syrians here that the international community imposed on us, and they wouldn't. .. they are a big burden on the economy and on the country. yeah, we have to end there. but foreign minister abdallah bou habib, i thank you so much forjoining me from beirut. thank you. i thank you very much. all the best to you. hello. after what was a very wet october for many places, the beginning of november promises more rain, particularly through wednesday night into thursday thanks to storm ciaran — this storm named by the met office. it will bring widespread heavy rain, but in the south of the uk and the channel islands, there is the threat of damaging winds. on our earlier satellite image, you can see that storm just beginning to develop, this hook appearing in the cloud. that's an area of low pressure that is deepening, and will continue to deepen as it pushes in our direction. in the short term, this frontal system pushing its way north—eastwards through wednesday. that's going to bring some outbreaks of pretty heavy rain, some squally, gusty winds across the south—east corner first thing as this band of showers works its way eastwards. a band of heavy rain pushing out of northern ireland and northern england and then up across scotland, briefly some snow over high ground in northern scotland, then turning back to rain, windy in the north and in the west of scotland. sunshine and showers developing for northern ireland, england and wales. temperatures of 7—14 degrees in most places. and then, as we head into the evening and overnight, this is where storm ciaran starts to make its move. very heavy rain swinging its way across the south of the uk and some really strong winds. see the isobars here on our pressure chart really squeezing together. there a met office amber warnings that have been issued for parts of southwest wales, more especially south west england, and then along the english channel coast and up into parts of east anglia. inland gusts of around 70 mph. coastal parts likely to see gusts of 70—80 mph. and not covered by met office weather warnings, but the channel islands could see the worst of the weather — gusts here could well touch 90 mph. with those strong winds, some very heavy rain across many parts of england, wales, southern and eastern scotland, perhaps fringing into northern ireland as we go through the day on thursday, and temperature—wise, ten, 11, 12 degrees. so that rain could cause some issues with flooding, those strong winds bring the risk of damage and disruption. and our area of low pressure will still be with us as we move on into friday, weakening as it goes, so the winds should ease just a little. but it does remain very unsettled with more rain as we head into the weekend. live from london, this is bbc news. sources suggest the rafah crossing might open today so seriously wounded palestinians can be treated in egypt. it comes as israel's military says its jets carried out an attack near a refugee camp in northern gaza. ukrainian children forced to leave their homes near the front line begin to arrive in safer parts of the country. and, as the uk hosts the world's first ai safety summit, researchers say artificial intelligence is nearly twice as accurate at detecting a rare form of cancer. hello, i'm sally bundock. a very warm welcome. we start with news of growing reports that the rafah border crossing in southern gaza may open soon to allow wounded palestinians to get treatment in egypt. the uk's foreign office said the reports were credible and had informed the estimated 200 britons who are trapped in gaza.

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