police, the deputy prime minister and the cabinet secretary. in terms of moving my family out of the house because of security reasons it was agreed by everybody to be agreed to be reasonable. he agreed by everybody to be agreed to be reasonable.— be reasonable. he spoke a great lenath be reasonable. he spoke a great length about _ be reasonable. he spoke a great length about the _ be reasonable. he spoke a great length about the drive _ be reasonable. he spoke a great length about the drive to - be reasonable. he spoke a great| length about the drive to barnard castle at the press conference. do you acknowledge are caused immeasurable offence to the bereaved who were unable to see their own loved ones die? the who were unable to see their own loved ones die?— who were unable to see their own loved ones die? the way we handled it was a car— loved ones die? the way we handled it was a car crash _ loved ones die? the way we handled it was a car crash and _ loved ones die? the way we handled it was a car crash and a _ loved ones die? the way we handled it was a car crash and a disaster - it was a car crash and a disaster and did cause a lot of people pain. i'm not concerned with the handling. the aftermath of that amount —— of that event. do you accept that that apparent breach of the rules caused enormous offence in pain to the people in this country whose loved ones had died? 1saute people in this country whose loved ones had died?— people in this country whose loved ones had died? we are talking about two different — ones had died? we are talking about two different things. _ ones had died? we are talking about two different things. the _ ones had died? we are talking about two different things. the handling i two different things. the handling of it was a disaster and caused huge pain to a lot of people and i very much regrets and have already apologised for how badly we handled the whole thing. in terms of my actual actions in going north and then coming back down i acted entirely reasonably and legally and did not break any rules. in entirely reasonably and legally and did not break any rules.— did not break any rules. in july of 2020 had agreed _ did not break any rules. in july of 2020 had agreed to _ did not break any rules. in july of 2020 had agreed to leave - did not break any rules. in july of 2020 had agreed to leave on - did not break any rules. in july of l 2020 had agreed to leave on friday the 18th of december. he had agreed to leave with mrjohnson to give a day of government in december. i wouldn't say agreed but i told them at the end ofjuly that was my intention. ba; at the end ofjuly that was my intentien-_ at the end ofjuly that was my intention. �* , ,, , , , ., intention. by september it you described your _ intention. by september it you described your relationships i intention. by september it you l described your relationships with him as knackered. yes. on the 13th of november, with the country on a cusp of a devastating second wave, you left work for the weekend, you never returned, did you? on the 13th of november. did you leave downing street and never return?— street and never return? correct. and she left — street and never return? correct. and she left downing _ street and never return? correct. and she left downing street - street and never return? correct. | and she left downing street under the control of a man who you described yourself as unfit for office. yes. thank you. mrcummings, i'm going mr cummings, i'm going to ask you a veryshort— mr cummings, i'm going to ask you a very short numberof mr cummings, i'm going to ask you a very short number of questions on behalf_ very short number of questions on behalf of— very short number of questions on behalf of members of the bereaved families _ behalf of members of the bereaved families forjustice uk. i am going to pick— families forjustice uk. i am going to pick up— families forjustice uk. i am going to pick up really where mr keith left off — to pick up really where mr keith left off. could we have 22658, page six, please? this is a whatsapp. the numberten the number ten whatsapp group. i'm sure youhe _ the number ten whatsapp group. i'm sure you're familiar with it. it reads — apologies for the language here, this is a live stream. was that connected to public confidence in the regulations? no. i think that confidence in the regulations? no. i thinkthat this— confidence in the regulations? no. i think that this was _ confidence in the regulations? no. i think that this was a _ confidence in the regulations? no. i think that this was a reference - confidence in the regulations? ila. i think that this was a reference not to a public dashboard, but to a kind of internal government dashboard, so at that point we had a health dashboard that will be presented to the pm and other senior people. what i was suggesting was that added to that dashboard should be an information on enforcement so we could get a much clearer picture of the true situation. 50 could get a much clearer picture of the true situation.— the true situation. so to present data which _ the true situation. so to present data which would _ the true situation. so to present data which would enhance - the true situation. so to present| data which would enhance public confidence in the regulations. no, so we could _ confidence in the regulations. iifr, so we could understand what was happening on the issue of enforcement around the cabinet room table and get a grip on the situation, which frankly was just being badly handled. so situation, which frankly was 'ust being badly handledi situation, which frankly was 'ust being badly handled. so you then go on to refer to _ being badly handled. so you then go on to refer to potemkin _ being badly handled. so you then go on to refer to potemkin loss. - being badly handled. so you then go on to refer to potemkin loss. just i on to refer to potemkin loss. just to make — on to refer to potemkin loss. just to make it— on to refer to potemkin loss. just to make it clear, potemkin laws, they— to make it clear, potemkin laws, they are — to make it clear, potemkin laws, they are saying that there are effectively deceptive regulations. they are — effectively deceptive regulations. they are there to convey something, but they— they are there to convey something, but they don't actually do anything, that is_ but they don't actually do anything, that is what you're trying to convey. _ that is what you're trying to convey, isn't it?— that is what you're trying to convey, isn't it? sort of. the reason for— convey, isn't it? sort of. the reason for this _ convey, isn't it? sort of. the reason for this was - convey, isn't it? sort of. the reason for this was is - convey, isn't it? sort of. the reason for this was is at i convey, isn't it? sort of. the reason for this was is at the | convey, isn't it? sort of. the i reason for this was is at the time there was a fundamental problem which was that on the one hand we were being told that compliance to various rules was not being followed at the level that we needed it to be. this was then generating in whitehall are constant sort of ratchet to say let's tighten up sort of ratchet to say let's tighten up these rules in various ways to try to get compliance higher. but this was fundamentally misconceived and lots of ways because the new rules that were being constantly suggested were aiming at... would have no effect on the people that were not complying. to see what i mean? there was a sort of potemkin processor people say, well, compliance is bad, let's impose more laws, but these laws are not being enforced. br; laws, but these laws are not being enforced. �* , , laws, but these laws are not being enforced. j , ,, laws, but these laws are not being enforced. j , i. ., enforced. by this point, you are -auttin enforced. by this point, you are putting forward _ enforced. by this point, you are putting forward the _ enforced. by this point, you are putting forward the view - enforced. by this point, you are putting forward the view that i enforced. by this point, you are l putting forward the view that the regulations that were in place were not being _ regulations that were in place were not being of age or they were unenforceable or they were deceptive. unenforceable or they were deceptive-— unenforceable or they were decetive. ., . ., ., deceptive. correct, and it was a bad combination — deceptive. correct, and it was a bad combination to _ deceptive. correct, and it was a bad combination to have _ deceptive. correct, and it was a bad combination to have this _ deceptive. correct, and it was a bad combination to have this rows i deceptive. correct, and it was a bad combination to have this rows not i combination to have this rows not being enforced and not faced a problem squarely, but then keep demanding more rules and more rules and more rules. just demanding more rules and more rules and more rules.— and more rules. just finally on this oint, and more rules. just finally on this point. when _ and more rules. just finally on this point. when did — and more rules. just finally on this point, when did you _ and more rules. just finally on this point, when did you reach - and more rules. just finally on this point, when did you reach that i and more rules. just finally on this l point, when did you reach that view, was that— point, when did you reach that view, was that before or after your trip to durham?— was that before or after your trip to durham? ~ ,. ,, to durham? 0h... we were discussing discussin: to durham? 0h... we were discussing discussing these _ to durham? 0h... we were discussing discussing these enforcement - to durham? 0h... we were discussing discussing these enforcement issues i discussing these enforcement issues since april and there was a constant problem in number ten to try to figure out what was actually being enforced and what the police were doing and the central question of how the police would interpret their role in enforcing things because sometimes they massively overreacted on certain things and arrested people when they shouldn't have done, etc, etc. i people when they shouldn't have done, etc, etc.— done, etc, etc. i won't take this oint done, etc, etc. i won't take this point any _ done, etc, etc. i won't take this point any further, _ done, etc, etc. i won't take this point any further, but _ done, etc, etc. i won't take this point any further, but you i done, etc, etc. i won't take this point any further, but you have | point any further, but you have known — point any further, but you have known dates for about six months when _ known dates for about six months when you — known dates for about six months when you were chief adviser for the pm? ., ., , ., , when you were chief adviser for the pm?., ., ,, when you were chief adviser for the pm? ., ., , pm? for many months this problem was debated and there _ pm? for many months this problem was debated and there are _ pm? for many months this problem was debated and there are multiple - debated and there are multiple meetings with the home secretary and home office about this question of enforcement compliance and this problem of constantly increasing the number of laws, but people not complying and this undermining the whole regime. complying and this undermining the whole regime-— complying and this undermining the whole regime. 93325, please. this is another whatsapp, _ whole regime. 93325, please. this is another whatsapp, short _ whole regime. 93325, please. this is another whatsapp, short points. i another whatsapp, short points. going _ another whatsapp, short points. going back to the 14th of april. this raises— going back to the 14th of april. this raises a point about transmission in hospitals. the first page sets out who is on the whatsapp group. it seems to be people _ the whatsapp group. it seems to be people in_ the whatsapp group. it seems to be people in your office and the department of health. yes. i think that the _ department of health. yes. i think that the owner of the cell phone, described — that the owner of the cell phone, described as matt hancock, perhaps you can _ described as matt hancock, perhaps you can help us with that as we go along _ you can help us with that as we go along the — you can help us with that as we go along. the message page, too, short message, _ along. the message page, too, short message, and it is —— it says. first of all, i right right that that— first of all, i right right that that is— first of all, i right right that that is mr hancock? the first of all, i right right that that is mr hancock? the inquiry has these whatsapp — that is mr hancock? the inquiry has these whatsapp from _ that is mr hancock? the inquiry has these whatsapp from somewhere. | that is mr hancock? the inquiry has i these whatsapp from somewhere. that is my understanding and i will be corrected — is my understanding and i will be corrected if i'm wrong about that. what _ corrected if i'm wrong about that. what caused you to send this message at this late stage at this point, three weeks after lockdown? this was the day after i return to work on the 13th and i had a lot of people say to me that they were obviously extremely worried about the situation in hospitals and care homes. that there still weren't enough test to go around at this point. i think some officials have pointed out to me that in some countries there were segregating their patients to protect people who didn't have covid and i was suggesting why aren't we doing this particularly given how few tests we had. i particularly given how few tests we had. ., �* ., ., particularly given how few tests we had. .,�* ., ., . ., had. i don't want to close down your answers but — had. i don't want to close down your answers but perhaps _ had. i don't want to close down your answers but perhaps we _ had. i don't want to close down your answers but perhaps we could i had. i don't want to close down your answers but perhaps we could do i had. i don't want to close down your answers but perhaps we could do it| had. i don't want to close down your| answers but perhaps we could do it a bit shorter? — answers but perhaps we could do it a bit shorter? sure. he had been to durham _ bit shorter? sure. he had been to durham and — bit shorter? sure. he had been to durham and barnard castle and this was your— durham and barnard castle and this was your second day back at work. you are _ was your second day back at work. you are raising the fact that there doesn't _ you are raising the fact that there doesn't seem to be segregation in hospitals — doesn't seem to be segregation in hospitals. why was it on that day is something — hospitals. why was it on that day is something that occurred to you? | something that occurred to you? i can't remember now, to be honest. on any day around this time i will deal with about 800 —— about 100 issues. when he reassured with the answer, welcome _ when he reassured with the answer, welcome back, we are doing this with the hospitals and the nightingale. a duty think because this was such a major— duty think because this was such a major issue — duty think because this was such a major issue that you should investigate further. i major issue that you should investigate further.- investigate further. i did investigate _ investigate further. i did investigate further. i did investigate further. i. investigate further. i did i investigate further. i spoke to chris whitty and patrick about it. they reiterated their concern about this and testing and care homes, too. ~ ., , ., this and testing and care homes, too. ~ ., , too. where are you satisfied with that response? _ too. where are you satisfied with that response? did _ too. where are you satisfied with that response? did you - too. where are you satisfied with that response? did you think- too. where are you satisfied with| that response? did you think that too. where are you satisfied with i that response? did you think that mr hancock— that response? did you think that mr hancock and team where doing what they should be doing in terms of segregation in hospitals? no, they should be doing in terms of segregation in hospitals? no, as you can see from — segregation in hospitals? no, as you can see from the _ segregation in hospitals? no, as you can see from the stream _ segregation in hospitals? no, as you can see from the stream of - segregation in hospitals? no, as you| can see from the stream of messages in general, at this time in april everyone around the cabinet table knew that we had to probe and keep asking repeated questions. final oint on asking repeated questions. final point on this. — asking repeated questions. final point on this, the _ asking repeated questions. final point on this, the context of this is really— point on this, the context of this is really the 19th of march, isn't it? you — is really the 19th of march, isn't it? you would know that the 19th of march _ it? you would know that the 19th of march that — it? you would know that the 19th of march that the decision was taken to move _ march that the decision was taken to move 30,000 patients out of hospitals, many of them into care homes _ hospitals, many of them into care homes yes _ hospitals, many of them into care homes. yes. but here we are three or four weeks— homes. yes. but here we are three or four weeks later and you are still raising _ four weeks later and you are still raising points about segregation in hospitals? correct. does that tell us something about the response? yes, us something about the response? yes. i_ us something about the response? yes. i mean — us something about the response? yes, i mean i think that and lots of the other messages which the council has beenjoined regarding messages between me and other people in number ten in april, officials were literally shouting at me the subject. private. office officials were rightly raising concerns about their care home staff. an excellent official, alexander burns, raised this issue repeatedly. and rightly. thank you mr weatherby. mr freeman, ithink— thank you mr weatherby. mr freeman, i think you're _ thank you mr weatherby. mr freeman, i think you're going _ thank you mr weatherby. mr freeman, i think you're going next? _ thank you mr weatherby. mr freeman, i think you're going next? i— thank you mr weatherby. mr freeman, i think you're going next? i act- thank you mr weatherby. mr freeman, i think you're going next?— i think you're going next? i act for four national— i think you're going next? i act for four national disabled _ i think you're going next? i act for. four national disabled organisations and want to ask you about two documents which were copied into your letter that you go to the inquiry. if we go back to img 4048313, and the first documents at the bottom of page three, it is this green of the whiteboard that you were asked about. this is number ten on the evening of friday the 13th of march. just under .4 on the whiteboard, and the lockdown, lockdown on the left—hand side as you look at it, it says equals, ao, stays home. there are words in brackets just stays home. there are words in bracketsjust under stays home. there are words in brackets just under that. coach, stays home. there are words in bracketsjust under that. coach, who looks after the people who can't survive alone? ?. you see that? yes. we have heard what you said to mr keith about the vulnerable and at—risk groups that they were effectively no plans or any plans to even get a plan, but can you explain what conclusions were reached at the meeting on the 13th of march, that is the whiteboard that was used across meetings over the weekend, over who was going to look after th