designed to waste huge amounts of my time i will personally hand curve her and escort her from the building. had you got form, mr cummings, for... studio: apologies for some of the languages used. this is a live stream of the uk covid inquiry and we are seeing messages containing course language. language. we cannot keep dealing with this horrific meltdown... page 10 of 283282. we have to get helen out of here. he is trying to get spads fired. can we get her in monday for her chat to her moving. we need her out asap. building millions of lovely houses. studio: again apologies for the language being used in this live stream. we will see a way in which you speak of a professional scientist who gave his time, and considerable amounts of energy to sage. professor neil ferguson, a third of the way down, we should get someone to hammer ferguson. mr cummings. was that aggressive and foul mouthed an misogynistic approach the correct wray to manage fellow professionals? i approach the correct wray to manage fellow professionals?— fellow professionals? i don't know what the ferguson _ fellow professionals? i don't know what the ferguson thing _ fellow professionals? i don't know what the ferguson thing is - fellow professionals? i don't know. what the ferguson thing is referring to, but in terms of helen, and the situation in the cabinet office you need to understand that the prime minister had first of all, tried to sack the cabinet secretary and botched it and he was still there, then he said to everyone he wanted helen to be removed as well and he has lost confidence in her. the new cabinet secretary had said that he wanted to have the authority to change both the pps and choose his deputy iee helen. the prime minister had trollied back on this as well. so, we were in this absolutely nigh mare situation, where the pm had destroyed, had made clear he didn't have confidence in either of the two senior officials, had said to people he was going to remove them, then he didn't remove them. for week after week, this let to an absolutely nightmare situation. now, my language about helen is, the language about helen is, the language is obviously appalling, and actually i got on well with helen, at a personal level, but a thousand times worse than my bad language is the underlying issue at stake, that we had a cabinet office system that had completely melted, and the prime minister had half begun the process of changing the senior management, and then stopped. so me and other people were desperately trying to build a new system with a new cabinet secretary. over this period, in order to get ready for september, and then suddenly, we were getting dragged out of meetings, on things like test and trace and vaccines, to be told we had to deal with cabinet office hr issues, and legal questions regarding judicial reviews. this, kafka—esque nightmare doesn't begin to explain it, so, i apologise for my language toward helen but a thousand times worse than my language was the underlying insanity of the situation in number ten. ~ , ., i am insanity of the situation in number| ten-— i am sorry ten. when this morning. i am sorry toer some — ten. when this morning. i am sorry toer some mpt. _ ten. when this morning. i am sorry toer some rupt, we _ ten. when this morning. i am sorry toer some rupt, we have _ ten. when this morning. i am sorry toer some rupt, we have to - ten. when this morning. i am sorry toer some rupt, we have to take i ten. when this morning. i am sorry toer some rupt, we have to take a l toer some rupt, we have to take a five minute — toer some rupt, we have to take a five minute break, so i will be back at 25_ five minute break, so i will be back at 25 w _ at 25 to. studio: this is bbc at 25 to. — studio: this is bbc news, and a live stream of the uk covid inquiry has just wrapped up. you have been listening to come to nick cummings, previously borisjohnson�*s top adviser, he said there was essentially no shielding plan at all for those at risk most at risk of severe disease as well as victims of domestic abuse before the march 2020 lockdown, he said that vulnerable groups were appallingly neglected. reiterated past descriptions of borisjohnson as a broken shopping trolley that would fear in all directions, most notably covid. he was asked why he didn't insist that borisjohnson was asked why he didn't insist that boris johnson return from was asked why he didn't insist that borisjohnson return from his holiday in february 2020, and he said that inside number ten, covid was treated like a distant problem, and not an emergency. he also went on to say that he felt it would have been highly counter productive for borisjohnson to chair meetings on covid at a time when he and others didn't feel it was a bigger threat as it was fast becoming. he was also very critical of some of the top people in government round march 2020, the then health secretary matt hancock, according to mr cummings, told cabinet they were unlikely to have covid without a temperature or a cough, but mr cummings says that mr hancock was told by scientists this wasn't true and that it helped so sow chaos, like was we heard from dominic cummings that mark said well the most senior service at the cabinet secretary, wanted the prime minister to encourage chicken pox style parties. mr cummings also described the cabinet office at the time that he joined in 2019, as a dumpster and bomb site when he took up that role as chief adviser, well, we can listen to a bit more about what he told the inquiry, let us have a listen. i was reflecting a widespread view among competent people at the centre of power about the calibre of a lot of power about the calibre of a lot of senior people who were dealing with this crisis extremely badly. overall, widespread failure, but pockets of excellent people and pockets of excellent people and pockets of excellent teams doing excellent work within an overall dysfunctional system. that excellent work within an overall dysfunctional system.— dysfunctional system. that was dominic cummings _ dysfunctional system. that was dominic cummings speaking i dysfunctional system. that was i dominic cummings speaking about dysfunctional system. that was - dominic cummings speaking about the cobra meeting and the decision not to bring borisjohnson back early from holiday to chair those. well, we can also hear what earlier in the day lee cain, the former number ten director of communications and he was also one of mrjohnson�*s closest advisers, we can listen to what he said, he described boris johnson can listen to what he said, he described borisjohnson as a challenging character to work with. let us have a listen. think anyone who has worked with the pm for a period of time will become exhausted with him sometimes. he can be quite a challenging character to work with, just because he will oscillate, he will be take a decision from the last person in the radio. i think that is pretty well documented, in terms of his style of operating, and it is rather exhausting from time to time. i think what will probably be clear in covid, it was the wrong crisis for this prime minister's skill set. which is different, i think from not potentially being up to the job of being prime minister. what potentially being up to the “ob of being prime minister.i potentially being up to the “ob of being prime minister. what do you mean by the _ being prime minister. what do you mean by the wrong _ being prime minister. what do you mean by the wrong crisis - being prime minister. what do you mean by the wrong crisis for i being prime minister. what do you mean by the wrong crisis for this i mean by the wrong crisis for this prime minister's skill set?- mean by the wrong crisis for this prime minister's skill set? could we use straightforward _ prime minister's skill set? could we use straightforward english - prime minister's skill set? could we use straightforward english mr i prime minister's skill set? could we| use straightforward english mr cain? i think_ use straightforward english mr cain? i think he _ use straightforward english mr cain? i think he is— use straightforward english mr cain? i think he is somebody who would often delay making decisions, would often delay making decisions, would often seek counsel from multiple sources and change his minds on issues. is sources and change his minds on issues. i ., sources and change his minds on issues. | . ., , ., issues. is that was earlier in the da , that issues. is that was earlier in the day. that is _ issues. is that was earlier in the day, that is lee _ issues. is that was earlier in the day, that is lee cain, _ issues. is that was earlier in the day, that is lee cain, we - issues. is that was earlier in the day, that is lee cain, we heard i issues. is that was earlier in the i day, that is lee cain, we heard from dominic cummings, we have been bringing that all afternoon, he explaining what borisjohnson's thoughts were on initially introducing lockdowns he was certainly open _ introducing lockdowns he was certainly open but _ introducing lockdowns he was certainly open but like, i introducing lockdowns he was certainly open but like, like . introducing lockdowns he was. certainly open but like, like me introducing lockdowns he was i certainly open but like, like me and like the warners and others, he was somewhat come struck we were in this situation, and of course, dumb struck, there was no plan for lockdown, he was saying how do we lockdown, he was saying how do we lockdown when there isn't a plan for lockdown when there isn't a plan for lockdown and i have been told for the last eight weeks that a lockdown is impossible, it is mad, because it means a worse second wave, now suddenly you and others are saying we have to lockdown, what is going on? ,, ., , ., ., ., on? shortly we will go live to that inuui , on? shortly we will go live to that inquiry. where — on? shortly we will go live to that inquiry, where our _ on? shortly we will go live to that inquiry, where our correspondent| inquiry, where our correspondent ellie price is standing by, to fill us in. this inquiry is of course a fact—finding mission, so no—one will be found guilty or not guilty, it is about learning lessons for the future, let us go live now to ellie price who is at the inquiry. sorry, ou no price who is at the inquiry. sorry, you go on- _ price who is at the inquiry. sorry, you go on- can — price who is at the inquiry. sorry, you go on- can you _ price who is at the inquiry. sorry, you go on. can you tell— price who is at the inquiry. sorry, you go on. can you tell us, i price who is at the inquiry. sorry, you go on. can you tell us, was i you go on. can you tell us, was there anything _ you go on. can you tell us, was there anything explosive i you go on. can you tell us, was there anything explosive that i you go on. can you tell us, was i there anything explosive that you heard in the evidence given by dominic cummings?— heard in the evidence given by dominic cummings? there was exolosion. _ dominic cummings? there was explosion, there _ dominic cummings? there was explosion, there was _ dominic cummings? there was explosion, there was some i dominic cummings? there was i explosion, there was some language i certainly can't tell you, back on the television i am afraid, which he was talking about another senior civil servant, who, some of the frustrations with how things were being dealt with. this all paints a raw picture of the sortle battles that were going on in number ten and who thought... and i think this is certainly going to set the tone and it's a bit left this afternoon. ellie, we canjust it's a bit left this afternoon. ellie, we can just see the inquiry looks like it is resuming, so let us have a listen and see what is happening. a... which was something i agreed with. you mr cummings, were the person who denigrated women, you denigrated helen mcnamara and you sent that misogynistic message about her. did you not? her. did ou not? ., ., , her. did ounot? ., ., , ., did you not? no, that is not correct- _ did you not? no, that is not correct- i — did you not? no, that is not correct. i was _ did you not? no, that is not correct. i was not _ did you not? no, that is not i correct. i was not misogynistic i was much rude rear about men than i was much rude rear about men than i was about helen, i agree that my language is deplorable, but as you see for yourself i diblowed the same or worse language about the prime minister, secretary of state and other people. —— deployed. if you want to look at how we ran thing, unlike whitehall, i had two young women at my deputy, i hired young women at my deputy, i hired young women in the sign team, for vote leave campaign, i put a woman in her 30s in charge of it, much tow the rage of a lot of mps so if you look at the reality of how i ran teams, and how they got on with the private secretaries in number entering you will see the truth of the matter. —— number ten. will see the truth of the matter. —— numberten. moving through will see the truth of the matter. —— number ten. moving through to the late summer. your statement shows that the prime minister kept changing his mind several times a day, questioning what had been done, i should have been the mayor ofjaw, are you refer to pressure from the press, i want to ask you, a single question, about the impact of the press on mrjohnson. it is obvious there is a symbiotic relationship between the press and politician, not least the prime minister. and he plainly paid a great deal of regard to what the news papers were saying, and what their owners were saying to him. it is obvious that he found himself unable to ignore their entreaties about what should be done and opening up the economy. in downing street, what was thought about that degree of influence of the press on the prime minister, and in particular, the impact on him, in deciding what was essentially a public health emergency? iitu’eiiii. public health emergency? well, obviously. _ public health emergency? well, obviously, there _ public health emergency? well, obviously, there was _ public health emergency? well, obviously, there was a - public health emergency? well, obviously, there was a general. obviously, there was a general feeling in number ten in the way in which the prime minister responded constantly to the media was extremely bad, and extremely damaging to the covid response, there was specific concerns about his relationship with the bar i —— barly and the telegraph and specific concerns and suspicion of possible corruption in terms of fears of his relationship with osbourne and the evening standard. i iffiiiii relationship with osbourne and the evening standard.— evening standard. i will ask you another question. _ evening standard. i will ask you another question. is _ evening standard. i will ask you another question. is it - evening standard. i will ask you another question. is it the i evening standard. i will ask you another question. is it the the l another question. is it the the evening stand car that is owned by lord lebedev.— evening stand car that is owned by lord lebedev. yes. it is he who he met in fact — lord lebedev. yes. it is he who he met in fact in _ lord lebedev. yes. it is he who he met in fact in the _ lord lebedev. yes it is he who he met in fact in the evening of thursday the 12th or 19th march? i think i remember seeing a reference to the 19th. the think i remember seeing a reference to the 19th. ' ' ., to the 19th. the 19th, all right. the next messages _ to the 19th. the 19th, all right. the next messages you - to the 19th. the 19th, all right. the next messages you sent i to the 19th. the 19th, all right. | the next messages you sent the to the 19th. the 19th, all right. - the next messages you sent the new director general in downing street or permanent secretary simon case, yes injuly and august, show you and he were gravely concerned about mr johnson changing position, as to the merits or the need for a lockdown. the lockdown which had occurred in march, and throughout september, october, mrjohnson backed and veered again, did he not, about whether or not the undoubted evidence of an increase in the instance of the virus could only be met by a circuit breaker or ultimately a national lockdown. yes. and it is in that — ultimately a national lockdown. yes. and it is in that period _ ultimately a national lockdown. ies and it is in that period there are multiple references to him being a trolley, to being incapable of making a decision, to also the influence, if any, that his then girlfriend exercised on his decision making. girlfriend exercised on his decision makinu. . girlfriend exercised on his decision making. yes. but the stage was reached are. — making. yes. but the stage was reached are, was _ making. yes. but the stage was reached are, was it _ making. ie3 but the stage was reached are, was it not, that everybody else in downing street took the view that a national lockdown was inevitable. and so it came to be— came to be were no in favour of a national lockdown, _ came to be were no in favour of a national lockdown, in _ came to be were no in favour of a national lockdown, in septemberl came to be were no in favour of a i national lockdown, in september and october, when the scientific evidence and the position of sage showed that the disease was spreading again and was sergio perezinger volcanoibly towards a further collapse in the nhs or a collapse in the nhs? yes, as the evidence shows i basically agreed with patted trick and chris and also, are, ialso with patted trick and chris and also, are, i also thought that as a kind of psychological or political judgment, if we did not do what patted trick and chris were suggesting, i had a lot of confidence, as i remember the data was extremely good unlike the first wave, i had a lot of confidence in what the data people were say, and i thought if they are roughly right, then i absolutely know that this guy is not going to be the mayor of jaws, he will bottle and u—turn and it will be the worst overall worlds. all right. on the 15th october can we have 267902, at page 68. in the whatsapp message between mr onson, mr cain and yourself, —— jonasson. —— mrjohnson. 267902, page 68. i see heads being... awe right. we don't appear to have that or put it on the screen. you say this. i on the screen. you say this. on the screen. you sa this. .. ~' ., on the screen. you sa this. ~' ~ ., ., you say this. i think i know the one ou are you say this. i think i know the one you are referring _ you say this. i think i know the one you are referring to. _ you say this. i think i know the one you are referring to. is _ you say this. i think i know the one you are referring to. is it _ you say this. i think i know the one you are referring to. is it the i you say this. i think i know the one you are referring to. is it the one i you are referring to. is it the one ou sa you are referring to. is it the one you say we _ you are referring to. is it the one you say we must _ you are referring to. is it the one you say we must preserve i you are referring to. is it the one you say we must preserve local l you say we must preserve local approach?— you say we must preserve local a- roach? ., , ., , ., approach? no, it is a different one. wh did approach? no, it is a different one. why did you — approach? no, it is a different one. why did you say _ approach? no, it is a different one. why did you say to _ approach? no, it is a different one. why did you say to mr— approach? no, it is a different one. why did you say to mrjohnson i approach? no, it is a different one. why did you say to mrjohnson and| approach? no, it is a different one. i why did you say to mrjohnson and mr cain we must not do a national