Seeking rapid eu membership. But could regional instability and outside meddling thwart his ambition . President jakov milatovic, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for having me. Its a great pleasure to have you. You have made it quite clear your overriding political ambition and aim is to get montenegro into the eu within the next five years. But its not going well, is it . Exactly. I think that that is why i have entered montenegrin politics a few years ago, to bring the country to the eu, and this is what i am doing on a daily basis, pushing for it. I think that all the good things are not easy. And in that way, we are trying our best. But pushing for it is one thing, promising your people that within a term a five year term you can deliver it is quite another. And surely you have made a promise that you cant keep. No, thats not really true. I think that we can keep the promise and i think that having montenegro into the eu within the next five years is a very realistic thing to do. I think that montenegro has been negotiating with the eu for the last ten years. We have been, out of all the candidate countries, the frontrunner. Montenegro is the only country without any big problems with their neighbours in the western balkans, which is a rare thing in our region. As i understand it, right now, montenegro is negotiating across the 33 chapters which are necessary to deliver eu membership. Youve got to achieve all of the targets. At the moment, the eu is minded to say that only three that is 10 of them, or less are actually being achieved by montenegro. And to quote the most recent Eu Commission report, your Membership Process has, quote, stalled. I think that a number of things have happened in a positive way over the last few years, particularly after the political change which happened in the country following the parliamentary elections in 2020. I think that, you know, that was a crucial thing for Democratic Development of montenegro. And i think that in 2020, indeed, the country has entered a new era of democratic as well as economic development. Montenegro was the only country in Eastern Europe that didnt really change the government before 2020. And the pace of reforms in terms of rule of law, as well as economic progress, over the last few years is significant. Yeah, but it was in late 2022 that the commission concluded that your process of membership had stalled. And they pointed to a whole raft of different concerns, from just to pick out a couple deep concern about the independence of the Media Landscape in montenegro, deep concern about the rule of law, about the impact of organised crime. Corrosive, they called it. These are things that youve had years to tackle not you personally, but the system in montenegro and youve consistently failed to tackle. Well, exactly. And this is why i think that the change that happened in 2020 was absolutely crucial for Everything Else which is now happening. And as you know, all the reports are past looking. So what we have been experiencing over the last two or three years, there has been a massive clean up of ourjudiciary. A number of people who were, according to those reports also, as well as according to the evidence that we got in the recent time from europol, from fbi, part of the organised crime and corruption were taken out from thejudiciary. And what we are now doing as a society is try to find the political consensus to appoint new, clean people with the integrity that would really push forward the reforms when it comes to the rule of law. But why should i believe your assurances when just a couple of months ago, it was revealed that organised criminals had dug a tunnel from an Apartment Building right into the high court, which one can only assume they were using to get Important Documents out of the high court and into their own possession . Right, and i think thats exactly why we need now political consensus in the country, which i think is going to happen by the end of the year, which will lead to the appointment of a number of people with integrity, clean people, who are going to make sure that ourjudiciary never again is in the state as it used to be a few years ago. So thats why im in politics. And, you know, everything basically depends on a political change that happened in the country. It does, and youre head of state, you are the president , but you cant necessarily ensure that a new, clean government is formed because your political associate in your party, the europe now party, is trying to form a government. Hes been trying for many weeks. And it is frankly a real mess. Well. You dont have a government right now. Well, i think that the government. Will happen next week, which is good news. And i think that the Prime Minister designate, so the future Prime Minister, is the person who fully shares all the values that i share as well. So he is a pro Euro Atlantic person, well educated in the west, and the person who is really pushing hard for the rule of law as well as economic convergence of montenegro. This is why both him and myself have returned back to montenegro and have entered the countrys politics, really with this hope that montenegro uses its potential, its full potential, and becomes the member of the eu, as i said, within the next five years. Interesting you use that phrase Euro Atlantic to describe your colleague and your Prime Minister. Some people characterised your president ial election victory as, in effect, a victory for president vucic in serbia. So, do you look first to serbia or to brussels . Well, of course, i think that what is there to say is that im very clear about the Foreign Policy objectives of montenegro from day one, and i see them through the three pillars. So, number one is even more credible nato membership of montenegro, which, as you may know, is a member of nato since 2017. Number two, and this is very important, is a faster eu accession not the fake one, but a true one. And i think, you know, this is where i am also very pushy when it comes to the reform agenda of montenegro. I think that montenegro should do its own homework as well, but i think that brussels also should understand that the process of the accession is not only a technical process, its a political and geopolitical process. And number three, and going back to your question, i think that montenegro should have as best as possible relations with all its neighbours, including serbia. As you know, serbia is the biggest economy in the western balkans. Its montenegro� s biggest Tourism Market. And what im really trying to make as my Foreign Policy is to establish normalised links between montenegro and serbia, which havent been the case over the last few years, not only with serbia, but also with kosovo, with bosnia and herzegovina, with albania, with north macedonia, and, really, you know, promote montenegro as a stable anchor that could also promote stability and prosperity for the rest of the region as well. But, mr president , we know that president Vucic Of Serbia is regarded as an ally, a friend, a Trading Partner of vladimir putin. And we also know that the United States right now looks at the efforts to form a government in your country, and they worry that pro serb parties are going to be a part of the ruling coalition. Now, you are the president , you look at the efforts to form a government. Are you worried that there is going to be a very strong pro serb element in the government in montenegro . I mean, listen, iwas very clear and, you know, exactly the things that i said with respect to the Foreign Policy of montenegro, im expecting those things to be implemented by the next government. And im absolutely sure that the Prime Minister designate, so the future Prime Minister, will be on the same path and with the same track record as the one that im now describing. Why do you think the americans are so worried, then . To quote the Us Ambassador in podgorica, judy reinke, she said. Just a week or two ago, she said, we are very concerned over reports that the new Governing Coalition may contain parties and leaders who actively oppose these Euro Atlantic values that you talk of. What i can tell you as a fact is that ever since people like myself and mr spajic, the next Prime Minister, entered the countrys politics, The Public Support for nato membership significantly increased. The public support for the eu accession is at about 80 . So what we are actually seeing by the fact by de facto in montenegro is the opposite, that the Euro Atlantic vision of montenegro has been increasingly getting the support from the people. But ijust wonder if you are a little bit frightened of serbia. I mean, what, 30 of your population would probably identify themselves as ethnic serbs. And we also know that the serbs, they can get very angry with you. Just to quote the Serbian Defence minister in august, he talked about his dislike of the fact that you have consistently recognised the independence of kosovo as a nation state. Youve recognised the international tribunal� s verdict that, for example, serbia committed an act of genocide in srebrenica. The serbs hate all of this. And the Defence Minister said that neighbouring states such as montenegro should realise that their position will cause a harsh reaction, just like in ukraine. Are you worried about that kind of language . Serbia is the biggest, individually, the biggest economic partner of montenegro, and its the biggest Tourism Market for montenegro. So, you know, you can imagine that we obviously care to have as best as possible links with serbia as a good neighbour. You mean you cant afford to upset them. But, at the same time, what we are really trying very hard is to be the next member of the eu. And this is why i think the story of montenegro becoming the next member of the eu is much bigger than montenegro, because it can really be this positive signal to the rest of the region as well, to the countries of Eastern Europe, such as ukraine, moldova, even georgia, that the reforms pay off. And this is the story that im trying to promote, and this is the story that i am really, you know, on a daily basis, fighting for montenegro, because it makes sense within the next few years to become a member of the eu. And i think thats really important to understand, also in brussels, as well as in a number of other european capitals. Regional tensions do impact your relatively small nation in the balkans. In recent months, weve seen very heightened tension between kosovo and serbia. There have been acts of violence in northern kosovo, which the kosovan government blames directly on meddling by aleksandar vucic� s government, a charge that he denies. But nonetheless, the violence has been serious. There is talk of the possibility of an explosion of violence in kosovo. When it comes down to it, whose side are you on . Who do you believe is causing this . Is it serbian meddling and interference, or has mr kurti failed to recognise the rights of serbs in kosovo . Well, i mean, from the very day one, i was very clear about it. We are very much supportive of the normalisation of the links, of the relationship between serbia and kosovo. And we are supportive of the dialogue between belgrade and pristina, under the umbrella of the european union. We are very worried that, you know, of everything that happened, especially in the recent months. As a tourism driven economy, montenegro wants to live in a neighbourhood which is prosperous and peaceful. I think that we are doing our best to promote peace and to promote security in the rest of the region. Montenegro is present through the kfor in kosovo, and im speaking both with president vucic, as well as the president of kosovo, mrs 0smani. Im very happy that both of them came to podgorica for the day of my inauguration. And i think that montenegro can indeed be this sort of mediator and help the two countries to sort out not the recent dispute that they are having, but, really, you know, a centuries long. Indeed, its long running. In your opinion, how close are we right now to a new round of significant violence, maybe even a new balkan war . Well, i think that, you know, obviously, the tensions are there. I dont think that. You know, i think that all the sides should really, you know, do their best to de escalate things. And im glad to see that both serbia as well as kosovo over the few last days have done so. You know, i dont really worry that there can be another war in the balkans because that would really be a tragic thing. And montenegro is doing everything we can to obviously avoid that scenario. I think that by being a member of nato ever since 2017, montenegro also has promoted security and prosperity in the region of the western balkans. However, i think that, you know, both sides really need to go back to the table, to the dialogue, which is, as you know, being done through the umbrella of the european union. And i think thats the way forward. So you hope that that bilateral relationship can be improved. But theres a Broader Geopolitical Horizon Here Which Involves Moscow and involves vladimir putin, because there is doubtless. There is concern in the west that russia is meddling and seeking destabilisation in the balkans. Do you believe that russia right now is meddling in the politics of montenegro . I mean, montenegro is a member of nato over the last six years. And, you know, even if russia is trying to do that, i think now, with the membership within nato, its much more difficult to do so. Are you sure about that . Look at the reporting from the eu, which specifically, even in the last year, has expressed concern about the vulnerability of montenegro to russian intelligence and cyber activity. Montenegro was called upon by the eu to make significant systematic efforts to identify and dismantle disinformation factories, which clearly the implication was were being run from russia. I think that, you know, there are obviously challenges and perhaps even the biggest one are within the cyber world. I think we are getting, as a country, support and help from a number of partners and countries with whom we are aligned. Just to be clear, it was before you took office as president , but in late august of 2022, there was a very serious cyber attack. Exactly. Yeah. The Defence Minister said it was a sophisticated attack, definitely not carried out by individuals. Your Intelligence Agencies believed that the finger of blame could be pointed at russia. Do you believe that could happen again . Are you still vulnerable . I think that we are now less vulnerable than we used to be a few years ago, and also as a result of the support that we are getting from nato allies. As a result of the support that we are, for instance, currently getting from france and slovenia, we are developing a Cybersecurity Centre in montenegro with the mentioned support. And i think that all of those actions are making montenegro much more resilient towards the aspects that you mentioned. I think there are challenges, as there are challenges in a number of other countries of the world. Well, there are also challenges for you when it comes to russia because you still have a significant economic reliance on russia. I know you have supported eu sanctions against russia, but look at the facts. 7,410 work permits were issued to russians in montenegro this year. Russia, in terms of its private investments in montenegro, i think runs very close to serbia as the biggest investor in montenegro this year, according to the central bank. So despite your public sort of adherence to sanctions, the reality is, youre tied to the russian economy. Well, i mean, you know, much less so than we used to be a few years ago. So, for instance, when i became an economy minister, which was the role that i was doing before i became the president , russian tourists accounted for about 25 of our overall Tourism Market. However, today, theyre accounting only for about 10 . So we have done a lot of diversifying away from russia over the last few years. But one thing that i really want to stress out, russia is a big country and there is a big difference between russia and the regime in moscow, right . And im sure that there are a number of russians in london. I lived in london. I know that there are many of them here as well. But, you know, we should not really judge the whole country and the whole society. Nonetheless, you want to be an eu member state and the eu is intent on economically isolating russia. So the question is, are you or are you not . Well, of course that we are. You know, from the very day one, we are imposing all the sanctions towards russia in the same way as the eu is doing. Let me also remind you that over the last ten years, montenegro has been fully aligning its Foreign Security policy with the one of the eu. Ah. Well, thats an interesting point, too. Fully aligning. Fully aligning . Because montenegro, of all countries in europe, has been absolutely enthusiastic about tying itself to chinas belt and road initiative. I mean, you, in your most signature Public Investment of recent years, took A Billion Dollars worth of Chinese Investment, with the chinese building your extravagant highway that only runs for a1km, but cost A Billion Dollars. Why are you making those strategic choices . Right. Well, you know, thats