will see extreme rainfall with a danger to life in that red zone as well, very dangerous travelling conditions, extensive flooding and possibly fast moving and deep flood water around and they could be power outages, the impacts lasting for the rest of the week and even some structural damage. we have been showing this chart a lot in the last few days, showing just how much rainfall, the total is stacking up across the country and widespread and within that white is only in eastern scotland we could see as much as two months worth of rainfall by the time we get to the end of the day on friday. it is all because of storm babet which is moving further northwards heading through tonight and the rain will edge into northern england, southern scotland president biden, in israel today, says he's opened the way for humanitarian access to gaza. now rishi sunak says he's going too, so is there a chance for diplomacy? the american president flies in, as recriminations about the blast at a gaza hospital continue. we've the latest from the region. with protests in arab countries imperilling diplomacy in the middle east, wejoin one demonstration in the west bank calling on the palestinian leadership to take a harder position with the israeli government. people came out here last night and were absolutely enraged, not only at the israeli _ were absolutely enraged, not only at the israeli government but the palestinian authority, the top edge of the _ palestinian authority, the top edge of the israeli government. —— the impet— of the israeli government. —— the purwpet of~ — we'll discuss with our panel whether diplomacy might at least moderate the violence and what an eventual search for peace might look like. also tonight: with fears that the conflict could spark radicalisation and violence on british streets, we've an exclusive interview with the commissioner for countering extremism. gokal hamas did not get the same attention that al-qaeda or the islamic state did.— attention that al-qaeda or the islamic state did. maybe it was not viewed as being _ islamic state did. maybe it was not viewed as being quite _ islamic state did. maybe it was not viewed as being quite as pressing i islamic state did. maybe it was not| viewed as being quite as pressing a security threat to the uk as we may now view it in the wake of what has happened in israel. good evening. president biden went ahead with a visit to israel today despite an explosion at a gaza hospital last night that claimed a great many lives. that shocking event caused arab leaders to abandon a meeting injordan with mr biden. but he pressed on regardless, announcing that israel had agreed not to hinder the delivery of humanitarian aid through egypt's border with gaza — and in the last hour has said that egypt has agreed to allow a handful of trucks through the crossing. it's a small step and it looks like a ground assault will still go ahead. so the diplomacy is still about easing the pain rather than stopping it. soon after arriving in israel, the president gave his view about who was responsible for the al—ahli hospital disaster. based on what i have seen, it appears as though it was done by the other team. ., , , appears as though it was done by the other team. . , , ., other team. inevitably the two belligerents were _ other team. inevitably the two belligerents were quick - other team. inevitably the two belligerents were quick to - other team. inevitably the two belligerents were quick to tell| other team. inevitably the two . belligerents were quick to tell the world the sight of what happened. the gaza health ministry, effectively hamas, very quickly said 500 had died in the blast and israeli accounts initially suggested it was a hamas missile and then later and islamichhad one that had dropped into the hospital. but what about the work of so—called independent analysts. justin bronk tweeted soon after this footage appeared, this does not look quite so silent quite like an air strike. to me the explosion frame is visible look like a largely propellant fire rather than a high explosive detonation. i rather than a high explosive detonation.— rather than a high explosive detonation. i would be fairly confident — detonation. i would be fairly confident based _ detonation. i would be fairly confident based on - detonation. i would be fairly i confident based on the daylight footage of the car park of the hospital in saying this was not an air dropped bomb, because there is a very, very small crater, far too small to be any of the air launch munitions used by the israeli air force. there is very little sign of blast damage already surrounding structures, even the terracotta tiling. the awning of the car park is barely disturbed, there is a regular shrapnel damage but that is not what you would expect to see with a high explosive bomb having gone off, you would expect a heavy shock wave to blow off roof tiles and cause damage to surrounding buildings. instead you see a lot of brain damage from burned—out cars which fits more closely with the other theory, a rocket body causing an initial smaller explosion and then a fuel flyer. figs an initial smaller explosion and then a fuel flyer.— an initial smaller explosion and then a fuel flyer. as for the toll, one australian _ then a fuel flyer. as for the toll, one australian analyst _ then a fuel flyer. as for the toll, one australian analyst pointed l then a fuel flyer. as for the toll, | one australian analyst pointed to the car park where many deaths occurred, tweeting, only three cars show any clear sign of kinetic structural damage. a blast powerful enough to kill 500 people would surely have destroyed everything in the car park and created a deep crater. there were no signs of one of those either, leaving him to say of those either, leaving him to say of the death toll, it seems wildly inconsistent with the damage we can see. but today the palestinian doctor who had been working at the hospital last night insisted, "we know that the number killed exceeds 500." the view of the us intelligence committee briefed to the new york times this evening is that palestinians were responsible for the blast, regardless of the numbers. the israeli military released what it said were intercepted conversations between palestinian commanders and details of radar tracks showing missile launchers. but of course american or israeli disclosures are not likely to sway many arab minds. there is no conclusive proof after all. the theory shown on the streets across theory shown on the streets across the middle east is just one sign of that, and that anger creates its own obstacle. arab leaders fearing that close diplomatic engagement with the west would make it worse. let's go tojerusalem now to talk to emir. emir, a difficult day diplomatically, but of course hostilities have carried on regardless. where have you been today? we have been all over. we were on the way to tel aviv when we got stuck in a huge trafficjam thanks to president biden�*s trip. we spent most of our day in the west bank at a protest in ramallah and we really got a sense of this theory you refer to towards the israeli government because of the hospital blast and the message that israel has been putting out and the evidence that it says proves it was not involved in the blast. we have not seen that make a dent on the popular opinion and we have seen protests notjust in the west bank but in neighbouring countries, jordan, lebanon and egypt. countries, jordan, lebanon and e, -t.~ ., , countries, jordan, lebanon and en nt.~ ., , countries, jordan, lebanon and e. -t.~ ., , countries, jordan, lebanon and egypt. what else can you tell us about this _ egypt. what else can you tell us about this deal _ egypt. what else can you tell us about this deal to _ egypt. what else can you tell us about this deal to ease - egypt. what else can you tell us about this deal to ease the - egypt. what else can you tell us . about this deal to ease the passage of humanitarian supplies into gaza that president biden was talking about? we that president biden was talking about? ~ . , ., ., about? we have 'ust heard a little bit more detail— about? we have just heard a little bit more detail about _ about? we have just heard a little bit more detail about what - about? we have just heard a little bit more detail about what it - bit more detail about what it involves. despite president biden�*s trip being a bit overshadowed by the blast, he managed to strike this deal with israel and egypt. he said egyptian president sisi agreed to open up the rafah border crossing to allow up to 20 trucks of humanitarian assistance into gaza, he said if hamas confiscates them or does not lead them through it will end. the bottom line is sisi deserves a lot of credit for this deal as you can now watch our reporter from the protests we join today in the west bank. —— ad you can now watch. i5 today in the west bank. -- ad you can now watch.— today in the west bank. -- ad you can now watch. is this a new wave of palestinian unity? _ can now watch. is this a new wave of palestinian unity? in the _ can now watch. is this a new wave of palestinian unity? in the west bankl palestinian unity? in the west bank and already hurting people are shaken again, the hospital blast has brought people out with renewed theory. those kids are shouting against the occupation, calling for against the occupation, calling for a revolution against the occupation. settlers, get out, president mahmoud above do something, the gazans are innocent. i above do something, the gazans are innocent. , ., , ., , innocent. i felt we should stand up for our country _ innocent. i felt we should stand up for our country and _ innocent. i felt we should stand up for our country and state, - innocent. i felt we should stand up for our country and state, each - innocent. i felt we should stand up| for our country and state, each one person can make a difference. the rotests person can make a difference. the protests are _ person can make a difference. the protests are the only thing to get our words — protests are the only thing to get our words across the world. {ut protests are the only thing to get our words across the world. cut off from the gods _ our words across the world. cut off from the gods and _ our words across the world. cut off from the gods and cousins - our words across the world. cut off from the gods and cousins by - our words across the world. cut offl from the gods and cousins by israeli territory, palestinians here feel they have few options but public rage —— cut off from the gazan cousin. do you still have family in gaza? , . . ~ cousin. do you still have family in gaza? , . ., ~ , gaza? they are fine, thank god, but the have gaza? they are fine, thank god, but they have had _ gaza? they are fine, thank god, but they have had to _ gaza? they are fine, thank god, but they have had to move _ gaza? they are fine, thank god, but they have had to move to _ gaza? they are fine, thank god, but they have had to move to the - they have had to move to the southern _ they have had to move to the southern part of gaza, i don't know if you _ southern part of gaza, i don't know if you heard — southern part of gaza, i don't know if you heard the news? the north got bombed _ if you heard the news? the north got bombed and they are really stressed because _ bombed and they are really stressed because any time they could be demolished all the house could be demolished. for demolished all the house could be demolished-— demolished all the house could be demolished. ., ., ., , demolished. for some, anger not 'ust towards the — demolished. for some, anger not 'ust towards the international i demolished. for some, anger not 'ust towards the international leaders h towards the international leaders they say are not hearing them but also the palestinian leadership. people came out last night and were absolutely enrage not only at the israeli government but the palestinian authority, which is a puppet of the israeli government. and angered by what some see as bias against them by parts of the international media. we had just left a protest at the centre of ramallah. there are women, children, young guys, everyone very angry but it was fairly peaceful until be said which channel we were from, we were told to leave. later today, local authorities announced two palestinians were killed by the israeli army near here. they were reported to have been burning tyres and protest. over 60 palestinians have died in increased violence in the west bank since the war began amid a wave of arrests, and there are fears it might widen. president biden's was meant to bring some of solution to the situation until the hospital blast and palestinian authority president mahmoud above subsequently pulling out of the planned meeting. in tel aviv, words of progress but caution. it is planned meeting. in telaviv, words of progress but caution.— of progress but caution. it is a ureat of progress but caution. it is a great humanitarian _ of progress but caution. it is a great humanitarian assistance j of progress but caution. it is a - great humanitarian assistance can begin to move from egypt to gaza. let me be clear, if hamas diverts all steel fee assistance, they will have demonstrated once again they have demonstrated once again they have no concern for the welfare of the palestinian people. justice must be done. i caution this, while you feel that rage, don't be consumed by it. after 9/11 we were enraged in the united states. we soughtjustice and gotjustice but we also made mistakes. abs. and gotjustice but we also made mistakes. �* , ., ., , ., mistakes. a senior palestinian leader in the _ mistakes. a senior palestinian leader in the west _ mistakes. a senior palestinian leader in the west bank - mistakes. a senior palestinian leader in the west bank says i mistakes. a senior palestinian - leader in the west bank says what their side is seeking now. you were with the palestinian authority president mahmoud above last night, why did he cancel his meeting with president biden? brute why did he cancel his meeting with president biden?— why did he cancel his meeting with president biden? we have not said we are severing — president biden? we have not said we are severing connections _ president biden? we have not said we are severing connections with - president biden? we have not said we are severing connections with the - are severing connections with the americans. — are severing connections with the americans, we will continue to talk to american— americans, we will continue to talk to american leaders. there are the developments that have taken shape in gaza, _ developments that have taken shape in gaza, the mum —— the bombardment of the _ in gaza, the mum —— the bombardment of the hospital that affected every palestinian and every palestinian supporter. it also left no meaning for the _ supporter. it also left no meaning for the meeting to go ahead. they sa it was for the meeting to go ahead. they say it was amiss _ for the meeting to go ahead. they say it was amiss fired _ for the meeting to go ahead. tue: say it was amiss fired rockets for the meeting to go ahead. tte: say it was amiss fired rockets by for the meeting to go ahead. t"'terg say it was amiss fired rockets by a militant group that you have no faith the statement the israeli army make? :, ., ,:, faith the statement the israeli army make? :, . ,:, do faith the statement the israeli army make?— do you i faith the statement the israeli army - make?_ do you expect make? none whatsoever. do you expect a rise in armed — make? none whatsoever. do you expect a rise in armed violence _ make? none whatsoever. do you expect a rise in armed violence and _ make? none whatsoever. do you expect a rise in armed violence and armed - a rise in armed violence and armed groups? t a rise in armed violence and armed arou s? , : , a rise in armed violence and armed urou s? , : , ., a rise in armed violence and armed r-rous? , : , ., , a rise in armed violence and armed u-rous? , . , :, , ., groups? i expect this to be a natural development - groups? i expect this to be a natural development should | groups? i expect this to be a i natural development should the occupation continue, so i say now it is an— occupation continue, so i say now it is an opportunity for the international community to scrutinise the situation and seize the opportunity. 44 members of my family— the opportunity. 44 members of my family have — the opportunity. 44 members of my family have been killed so far. why kill them? — family have been killed so far. why killthem? how family have been killed so far. why kill them? how do you think i feel now when— kill them? how do you think i feel how when i— kill them? how do you think i feel now when i make this interview to see my— now when i make this interview to see my relatives being targeted? i speak— see my relatives being targeted? i speak to _ see my relatives being targeted? i speak to them every day, they say we are waiting _ speak to them every day, they say we are waiting ourturn speak to them every day, they say we are waiting our turn to be killed by israet _ are waiting our turn to be killed by israet my— are waiting our turn to be killed by israel. my god, where is the humanity?— israel. my god, where is the humani ? ~ . , , humanity? what will be shifted relations with _ humanity? what will be shifted relations with the _ humanity? what will be shifted relations with the israeli - relations with the israeli government notjust last night but the past two weeks? tt government notjust last night but the past two weeks?— the past two weeks? if anything it will damage _ the past two weeks? if anything it will damage any — the past two weeks? if anything it will damage any possible - the past two weeks? if anything it. will damage any possible connections with the _ will damage any possible connections with the israelis, it will mean netanyahu is not a man to talk to in the future _ netanyahu is not a man to talk to in the future should there be any mediation whatsoever to bring the palestinians and israelis together. it is palestinians and israelis together. it is not _ palestinians and israelis together. it is not only on the streets of the west bank where public rage has exploded. in lebanon, violent clashes. and protests injordan. and egypt too. many arab leaders expressed sympathy with israel after the hamas attack but now after the hospital blast, even as israel denies responsibility, the words are becoming stronger and the diplomacy looks fraught. t did becoming stronger and the diplomacy looks fraught-— looks fraught. i did was not able to meet the palestinian _ looks fraught. i did was not able to meet the palestinian leader - looks fraught. i did was not able to i meet the palestinian leader mahmoud abbas, norwith meet the palestinian leader mahmoud abbas, nor with thejordanians, that diminishes one of the detention goals of the biden visit —— joe biden was not able to meet with. that goal was to de—escalate such a regional level. the idea of showing solidarity with israel was achieved, it would have been a good outcome to help de—escalate the region which has been impeded by what happened. as popular opinion becomes more inflamed, arab political leaders who have forged closer ties with israel are starting to feel the pressure of the people, forcing open a wider gulf between the israeli government and those outside of gaza it must negotiate a peace with. emir nader reporting. with me now, lord mcdonald, former head of the foreign office and also former uk ambassador to israel. leslie vinjamuri, director of the us and the americas programme at chatham house — a think tank focusing on international affairs. emile hokayem, director of regional security at the international institute for strategic studies. and joining us from jerusalem — richard pater, director of the britain israel communications and research centre. welcome, all, simon mcdonald, let's start with you. we know the uk prime minister rishi sunak is on his way to the region. what is he trying to achieve? t to the region. what is he trying to achieve? ~ :, to the region. what is he trying to achieve? ~ ., , to the region. what is he trying to achieve? ~ . , ., achieve? i think we are seeing an examle achieve? i think we are seeing an example of— achieve? i think we are seeing an example of tag — achieve? i think we are seeing an example of tag team _ achieve? i think we are seeing an example of tag team diplomacy. | example of tag team diplomacy. scholz was in the region as well as biden. i think all countries are trying to make the israelis focus on a wider picture and a longer term. the hamas attack was monstrous. israel has the right to defend itself, but israel does not have the right to do anything and everything it wants and i think that is what biden, sunak and scholz have been stressing. biden, sunak and scholz have been stressina. :, ._ biden, sunak and scholz have been stressina. . ., , stressing. emile hokayem, clearly britain is not _ stressing. emile hokayem, clearly britain is not as _ stressing. emile hokayem, clearly britain is not as heavy _ stressing. emile hokayem, clearly britain is not as heavy weight - stressing. emile hokayem, clearly britain is not as heavy weight a . britain is not as heavy weight a country as the us but could there be a difference in the readiness of arab leaders to meet him? i suspect he will be a bit luckier. arab _ i suspect he will be a bit luckier. arab leaders who decided to pull the plu- arab leaders who decided to pull the plug on— arab leaders who decided to pull the plug on what was supposed to happen today and jordan wanted to convey a specific _ today and jordan wanted to convey a specific message of anger to the us. the uk _ specific message of anger to the us. the uk is _ specific message of anger to the us. the uk is seen also as being pro—israel, in the sense, but sunak is not _ pro—israel, in the sense, but sunak is not as— pro—israel, in the sense, but sunak is not as radioactive to the arab public— is not as radioactive to the arab public is — is not as radioactive to the arab public isjoe biden is not as radioactive to the arab public is joe biden would is not as radioactive to the arab public isjoe biden would have been. it is possible that the events of the past — it is possible that the events of the past 24 hours, with the fact the israeli ground offensive again been delayed, _ israeli ground offensive again been delayed, some minor but still positive — delayed, some minor but still positive moves on mediterranean aid will help— positive moves on mediterranean aid will help a _ positive moves on mediterranean aid will help a little. it was quite telling that senior arab leaders would — telling that senior arab leaders would decide not to meet with president biden. 20 years ago it wouldn't — president biden. 20 years ago it wouldn't have been the case, ten years— wouldn't have been the case, ten years ago— wouldn't have been the case, ten years ago it wouldn't have been the case: _ years ago it wouldn't have been the case, it— years ago it wouldn't have been the case, it speaks to the diminished american influence in the region. fascinating. to that point, would he have felt that diminished influence and perhaps notwithstanding that still feel the trip was an achievement? t still feel the trip was an achievement?— still feel the trip was an achievement? , ., , ., achievement? i feel the trip was an achievement _ achievement? i feel the trip was an achievement in _ achievement? i feel the trip was an achievement in the _ achievement? i feel the trip was an achievement in the sense - achievement? i feel the trip was an achievement in the sense of - achievement? i feel the trip was an achievement in the sense of true i achievement in the sense of true devastation— achievement in the sense of true devastation to _ achievement in the sense of true devastation to so _ achievement in the sense of true devastation to so many - achievement in the sense of true devastation to so many ordinaryl devastation to so many ordinary people — devastation to so many ordinary people i— devastation to so many ordinary people. i think— devastation to so many ordinary people. i think president- devastation to so many ordinary people. i think president bidenl devastation to so many ordinary- people. i think president biden went first to _ people. i think president biden went first to acknowledge _ people. i think president biden went first to acknowledge the _ people. i think president biden went first to acknowledge the devastationj first to acknowledge the devastation and the _ first to acknowledge the devastation and the destruction _ first to acknowledge the devastation and the destruction that _ first to acknowledge the devastation and the destruction that israel- and the destruction that israel faced — and the destruction that israel faced and _ and the destruction that israel faced and to _ and the destruction that israel faced and to demonstrate - and the destruction that israel- faced and to demonstrate obviously america's_ faced and to demonstrate obviously america's commitment— faced and to demonstrate obviously america's commitment to - faced and to demonstrate obviously america's commitment to israel, i faced and to demonstrate obviously. america's commitment to israel, but ithink— america's commitment to israel, but i think the _ america's commitment to israel, but i think the reat— america's commitment to israel, but i think the real strategic _ america's commitment to israel, but i think the real strategic purpose i i think the real strategic purpose of the _ i think the real strategic purpose of the visit — i think the real strategic purpose of the visit was _ i think the real strategic purpose of the visit was to _ i think the real strategic purpose of the visit was to get _ i think the real strategic purpose of the visit was to get israel- i think the real strategic purpose of the visit was to get israel to l of the visit was to get israel to delay — of the visit was to get israel to delay to— of the visit was to get israel to delay to do— of the visit was to get israel to delay. to do it _ of the visit was to get israel to delay. to do it privately. - of the visit was to get israel to. delay. to do it privately. private diplomacy— delay. to do it privately. private diplomacy is _ delay. to do it privately. private diplomacy is absolutely- delay. to do it privately. privatei diplomacy is absolutely essential and that— diplomacy is absolutely essential and that contrast between - diplomacy is absolutely essential. and that contrast between standing alongside _ and that contrast between standing alongside israel— and that contrast between standing alongside israel and _ and that contrast between standing alongside israel and having - and that contrast between standing alongside israel and having those l alongside israel and having those private _ alongside israel and having those private meetings _ alongside israel and having those private meetings that _ alongside israel and having those private meetings that are - alongside israel and having those. private meetings that are intended to delay, _ private meetings that are intended to delay. delay, _ private meetings that are intended to delay, delay, to _ private meetings that are intended to delay, delay, to get _ private meetings that are intended to delay, delay, to get israel- private meetings that are intended to delay, delay, to get israel not l to delay, delay, to get israel not to delay, delay, to get israel not to launch — to delay, delay, to get israel not to launch the _ to delay, delay, to get israel not to launch the ground _ to delay, delay, to get israel not to launch the ground invasion i to delay, delay, to get israel not. to launch the ground invasion that president — to launch the ground invasion that president biden— to launch the ground invasion that president biden and _ to launch the ground invasion that president biden and everyone i to launch the ground invasion that| president biden and everyone else knows _ president biden and everyone else knows witt— president biden and everyone else knows will have _ president biden and everyone else knows will have a _ president biden and everyone else knows will have a devastating i president biden and everyone else . knows will have a devastating impact on palestinian — knows will have a devastating impact on palestinian civilians. _ knows will have a devastating impact on palestinian civilians. the - on palestinian civilians. the message _ on palestinian civilians. the message has— on palestinian civilians. the message has been- on palestinian civilians. the message has been very i on palestinian civilians. the . message has been very clear, on palestinian civilians. the - message has been very clear, you must _ message has been very clear, you must protect— message has been very clear, you must protect civilians _ message has been very clear, you must protect civilians on - message has been very clear, you must protect civilians on both i must protect civilians on both sides — must protect civilians on both sides get _ must protect civilians on both sides. get humanitarian i must protect civilians on both sides. get humanitarian aid . must protect civilians on both| sides. get humanitarian aid in must protect civilians on both i sides. get humanitarian aid in the. there _ sides. get humanitarian aid in the. there is— sides. get humanitarian aid in the. there is that — sides. get humanitarian aid in the. there is that 100 _ sides. get humanitarian aid in the. there is that 100 million— sides. get humanitarian aid in the. there is that 100 million that i sides. get humanitarian aid in the. there is that 100 million that has i there is that 100 million that has come _ there is that 100 million that has come off— there is that 100 million that has come off the _ there is that 100 million that has come off the back _ there is that 100 million that has come off the back of that - there is that 100 million that hasi come off the back of that visit and ithink— come off the back of that visit and i think president _ come off the back of that visit and i think president biden _ come off the back of that visit and i think president biden is - come off the back of that visit and i think president biden is very- i think president biden is very clear— i think president biden is very clear that _ i think president biden is very clear that is _ i think president biden is very clear that is the _ i think president biden is very clear that is the message i i think president biden is very clear that is the message he i i think president biden is veryl clear that is the message he is trying — clear that is the message he is trying to— clear that is the message he is trying to impart _ clear that is the message he is trying to impart-— trying to impart. let's bring richard in _ trying to impart. let's bring richard in on _ trying to impart. let's bring richard in on that _ trying to impart. let's bring richard in on that message | trying to impart. let's bring i richard in on that message about delaying the ground assault. some people were saying that a week ago they were more or less ready so perhaps there has already been a delaying effect. do you think it will still happen, the ground assault, or could that now will be in doubt? t assault, or could that now will be in doubt? :, assault, or could that now will be in doubt? . :, , , :, ., , in doubt? i am not privy to military ”lannin , in doubt? i am not privy to military planning. but _ in doubt? i am not privy to military planning. but the _ in doubt? i am not privy to military planning, but the assessment i in doubt? i am not privy to militaryj planning, but the assessment from here with _ planning, but the assessment from here with israeli intelligence working _ here with israeli intelligence working very carefully with a plan, the whole — working very carefully with a plan, the whole operation thrust on them due to _ the whole operation thrust on them due to the — the whole operation thrust on them due to the devastating massacre that took place _ due to the devastating massacre that took place on october the 7th, so israeti _ took place on october the 7th, so israeli planners are hoping that cooler— israeli planners are hoping that cooler heads will prevail, they are planning — cooler heads will prevail, they are planning it— cooler heads will prevail, they are planning it methodically. my understanding from the meetings that president _ understanding from the meetings that president biden held, he has given israet _ president biden held, he has given israet port— president biden held, he has given israel. port for the operation. it is quite — israel. port for the operation. it is quite clear israeli military never— is quite clear israeli military never target civilians, it is only the hamas— never target civilians, it is only the hamas infrastructure and leadership that are under the focus of the _ leadership that are under the focus of the military operation, and so they— of the military operation, and so they are — of the military operation, and so they are taking their time primarily to make _ they are taking their time primarily to make sure the area is cleared and then perhaps to go in but that is only speculation. | then perhaps to go in but that is only speculation.— only speculation. i know a lot of eo - le only speculation. i know a lot of people would — only speculation. i know a lot of people would dispute _ only speculation. i know a lot of people would dispute the i only speculation. i know a lot of people would dispute the claim | only speculation. i know a lot of- people would dispute the claim about not targeting civilians. certainly talking to some people in israel last week including former senior officers they say the aim was to cause a humanitarian crisis in order to achieve their aims. we will come back to you in a moment. just interested in asking the question, before we go into the prospectus of the next few weeks about the issue of hostages. can these visits play any meaningful role in trying to get the hostages out? that any meaningful role in trying to get the hostages out?— the hostages out? that will be part ofthe the hostages out? that will be part of the agenda _ the hostages out? that will be part of the agenda but _ the hostages out? that will be part of the agenda but the _ the hostages out? that will be partl of the agenda but the hostagetaking was a particularly twisted aspect of the attacks on the seventh. the sorts of people they have taken, the young and the elderly including holocaust survivors. this is designed to provoke and enrage israel. beyond reason. hamas are really goading israel. the situation with the hostages as i think horribly desperate. of course israel will want to get them back alive but in the situation right now in gaza, it will be very difficult, so international negotiation and mediation is their best hope. but thatis mediation is their best hope. but that is a long shot. t mediation is their best hope. but that is a long shot.— mediation is their best hope. but that is a long shot. i am interested in our that is a long shot. i am interested in your view _ that is a long shot. i am interested in your view on _ that is a long shot. i am interested in your view on that _ that is a long shot. i am interested in your view on that and _ that is a long shot. i am interested in your view on that and does i that is a long shot. i am interested i in your view on that and does hamas have to hold onto the hostages as they trump card to? but i want to combine it in the question, whether for the us there would be any attempt to persuade egypt to let people, notjust us passport holders out, but to let palestinians out or is that just too toxic for out, but to let palestinians out or is thatjust too toxic for an arab leader to agree to a? it is is that just too toxic for an arab leader to agree to a?— leader to agree to a? it is toxic for an arab _ leader to agree to a? it is toxic for an arab leader _ leader to agree to a? it is toxic for an arab leader but - leader to agree to a? it is toxic for an arab leader but i - leader to agree to a? it is toxic| for an arab leader but i suspect leader to agree to a? it is toxic - for an arab leader but i suspect we palestinians— for an arab leader but i suspect we palestinians would _ for an arab leader but i suspect we palestinians would not _ for an arab leader but i suspect we palestinians would not agree - for an arab leader but i suspect we palestinians would not agree to - palestinians would not agree to that, _ palestinians would not agree to that, it — palestinians would not agree to that, it is — palestinians would not agree to that, it is too _ palestinians would not agree to that, it is too reminiscent- palestinians would not agree to that, it is too reminiscent of. palestinians would not agree to i that, it is too reminiscent of 1948, the great — that, it is too reminiscent of 1948, the great disaster— that, it is too reminiscent of 1948, the great disaster that _ that, it is too reminiscent of 1948, the great disaster that befell- that, it is too reminiscent of 1948, the great disaster that befell the l the great disaster that befell the palestinians. _ the great disaster that befell the palestinians. none _ the great disaster that befell the palestinians. none of— the great disaster that befell the palestinians. none of them - the great disaster that befell the palestinians. none of them havej the great disaster that befell the - palestinians. none of them have been back and _ palestinians. none of them have been back and there — palestinians. none of them have been back and there have _ palestinians. none of them have been back and there have been _ palestinians. none of them have been back and there have been several- back and there have been several waves _ back and there have been several waves of — back and there have been several waves of displacement _ back and there have been several waves of displacement over - waves of displacement over the years — waves of displacement over the years the _ waves of displacement over the years. the egyptians— waves of displacement over the years. the egyptians and - waves of displacement over the years. the egyptians and the i years. the egyptians and the jordahians _ years. the egyptians and the jordanians for— years. the egyptians and the jordanians for that— years. the egyptians and the jordanians for that matter i years. the egyptians and thei jordanians for that matter are years. the egyptians and the - jordanians for that matter are very worried _ jordanians for that matter are very worried that — jordanians for that matter are very worried that israel— jordanians for that matter are very worried that israel may— jordanians for that matter are very worried that israel may use - jordanians for that matter are very worried that israel may use this i worried that israel may use this opportunity to— worried that israel may use this opportunity to create _ worried that israel may use this opportunity to create a - worried that israel may use this opportunity to create a new - worried that israel may use this . opportunity to create a new status qua — opportunity to create a new status qua to — opportunity to create a new status quo. to redesign _ opportunity to create a new status quo. to redesign the _ opportunity to create a new status quo. to redesign the gaza - opportunity to create a new status quo. to redesign the gaza strip, l quo. to redesign the gaza strip, possibly— quo. to redesign the gaza strip, possibly the _ quo. to redesign the gaza strip, possibly the west _ quo. to redesign the gaza strip, possibly the west bank, - quo. to redesign the gaza strip, possibly the west bank, push i quo. to redesign the gaza strip, possibly the west bank, push as quo. to redesign the gaza strip, - possibly the west bank, push as many people _ possibly the west bank, push as many people as _ possibly the west bank, push as many pe0pte as possible _ possibly the west bank, push as many people as possible and _ possibly the west bank, push as many people as possible and grab— possibly the west bank, push as many people as possible and grab more - people as possible and grab more land and — people as possible and grab more land and so — people as possible and grab more land and so on. _ people as possible and grab more land and so on. this _ people as possible and grab more land and so on. this may- people as possible and grab more land and so on. this may not- people as possible and grab more land and so on. this may not be l people as possible and grab more . land and so on. this may not be the grand _ land and so on. this may not be the grand design — land and so on. this may not be the grand design it _ land and so on. this may not be the grand design. it may— land and so on. this may not be the grand design. it may happen - land and so on. this may not be the. grand design. it may happen because this is— grand design. it may happen because this is what— grand design. it may happen because this is what war _ grand design. it may happen because this is what war does. _ grand design. it may happen because this is what war does. on _ grand design. it may happen because this is what war does. on the - grand design. it may happen because this is what war does. on the issue . this is what war does. on the issue of hostages, — this is what war does. on the issue of hostages, in _ this is what war does. on the issue of hostages, in a _ this is what war does. on the issue of hostages, in a very— this is what war does. on the issue of hostages, in a very twisted - this is what war does. on the issue of hostages, in a very twisted way, i of hostages, in a very twisted way, i agree _ of hostages, in a very twisted way, i agree with — of hostages, in a very twisted way, i agree with what _ of hostages, in a very twisted way, i agree with what lord _ of hostages, in a very twisted way, i agree with what lord macdonald i i agree with what lord macdonald 'ust i agree with what lord macdonald just said~ — i agree with what lord macdonald just said. hamas _ i agree with what lord macdonald just said. hamas did _ i agree with what lord macdonald just said. hamas did less - i agree with what lord macdonald just said. hamas did less to- i agree with what lord macdonald i just said. hamas did less to petrify tsraet. _ just said. hamas did less to petrify tsraet. to— just said. hamas did less to petrify israel, to puncture _ just said. hamas did less to petrify israel, to puncture the _ just said. hamas did less to petrify israel, to puncture the aura - just said. hamas did less to petrify israel, to puncture the aura of- israel, to puncture the aura of ihvihcibitity _ israel, to puncture the aura of invincibility and _ israel, to puncture the aura of invincibility and go _ israel, to puncture the aura of invincibility and go after - israel, to puncture the aura of invincibility and go after really the tsraeti _ invincibility and go after really the israeli mindset _ invincibility and go after really the israeli mindset and - invincibility and go after really the israeli mindset and createj invincibility and go after really - the israeli mindset and create that shock, _ the israeli mindset and create that shock, irut— the israeli mindset and create that shock, but in— the israeli mindset and create that shock, but in a _ the israeli mindset and create that shock, but in a way, _ the israeli mindset and create that shock, but in a way, they- the israeli mindset and create that shock, but in a way, they got - shock, but in a way, they got probably— shock, but in a way, they got probably more _ shock, but in a way, they got probably more than - shock, but in a way, they got probably more than they - shock, but in a way, they got - probably more than they expected on that saturday— probably more than they expected on that saturday morning. _ probably more than they expected on that saturday morning. the _ probably more than they expected on that saturday morning. the number. probably more than they expected onl that saturday morning. the number of hostages _ that saturday morning. the number of hostages is _ that saturday morning. the number of hostages is quite _ that saturday morning. the number of hostages is quite large, _ that saturday morning. the number of hostages is quite large, the _ that saturday morning. the number of hostages is quite large, the fact- hostages is quite large, the fact they are — hostages is quite large, the fact they are by— hostages is quite large, the fact they are by national _ hostages is quite large, the fact they are by national adds - hostages is quite large, the fact they are by national adds a - hostages is quite large, the fact| they are by national adds a level hostages is quite large, the fact. they are by national adds a level of complication — they are by national adds a level of complication. it— they are by national adds a level of complication. it is— they are by national adds a level of complication. it is not— they are by national adds a level of complication. it is not what- they are by national adds a level of complication. it is not what we - they are by national adds a level ofl complication. it is not what we used to see _ complication. it is not what we used to see where — complication. it is not what we used to see where hamas _ complication. it is not what we used to see where hamas had _ complication. it is not what we used to see where hamas had a - complication. it is not what we used to see where hamas had a couple i complication. it is not what we usedj to see where hamas had a couple of hostages _ to see where hamas had a couple of hostages and — to see where hamas had a couple of hostages and then _ to see where hamas had a couple of hostages and then turkey _ to see where hamas had a couple of hostages and then turkey or- to see where hamas had a couple of hostages and then turkey or qatar i to see where hamas had a couple ofl hostages and then turkey or qatar or others _ hostages and then turkey or qatar or others with— hostages and then turkey or qatar or others with cumin _ hostages and then turkey or qatar or others with cumin and _ hostages and then turkey or qatar or others with cumin and figure - hostages and then turkey or qatar or others with cumin and figure out - hostages and then turkey or qatar or others with cumin and figure out thei others with cumin and figure out the film others with cumin and figure out the right mix _ others with cumin and figure out the right mix of— others with cumin and figure out the right mix of incentives _ others with cumin and figure out the right mix of incentives and - right mix of incentives and fihahciat_ right mix of incentives and financial assistance. - right mix of incentives and financial assistance. it - right mix of incentives and financial assistance. it is l right mix of incentives and financial assistance. it is aj right mix of incentives and i financial assistance. it is a lot more — financial assistance. it is a lot more complicated, _ financial assistance. it is a lot more complicated, a - financial assistance. it is a lot more complicated, a lot - financial assistance. it is a lot| more complicated, a lot more strategic, _ more complicated, a lot more strategic, so— more complicated, a lot more strategic, so i _ more complicated, a lot more strategic, so i don't _ more complicated, a lot more strategic, so i don't expect. more complicated, a lot more strategic, so i don't expect an more complicated, a lot more - strategic, so i don't expect an easy rapid _ strategic, so i don't expect an easy rapid resolution _ strategic, so i don't expect an easy rapid resolution today. _ strategic, so i don't expect an easy rapid resolution today.— rapid resolution today. there are the 20 americans, _ rapid resolution today. there are the 20 americans, i _ rapid resolution today. there are the 20 americans, i believe, - rapid resolution today. there are i the 20 americans, i believe, among the 20 americans, i believe, among the hostages, so that clearly is an issue that a us president coming towards an election can't afford to ignore. realistically, are there any avenues? is it through qatar? back to this point _ avenues? is it through qatar? back to this point about _ avenues? is it through qatar? back to this point about delay, delay, this is— to this point about delay, delay, this is a — to this point about delay, delay, this is a big part. how do you get humanitarian assistance and then do as much— humanitarian assistance and then do as much as — humanitarian assistance and then do as much as you can for americans on the grouhd~ — as much as you can for americans on the ground. but it is desperate. to be very— the ground. but it is desperate. to be very fair— the ground. but it is desperate. to be very fairto the ground. but it is desperate. to be very fair to the us president, of course _ be very fair to the us president, of course he — be very fair to the us president, of course he cares about american citizens — course he cares about american citizens and he cares about the election — citizens and he cares about the election. this is a man who has lost his son _ election. this is a man who has lost his son and — election. this is a man who has lost his son and feels the grief of people _ his son and feels the grief of people. it is sincere and not concocted for an election. he has gone _ concocted for an election. he has gone because he feels it. to his credit, — gone because he feels it. to his credit, i— gone because he feels it. to his credit, i don't believe he is giving tsraet a _ credit, i don't believe he is giving israel a blank cheque and he recognises the right for israel to defend — recognises the right for israel to defend itself but i think he has an eye on— defend itself but i think he has an eye on the — defend itself but i think he has an eye on the broader context and i think— eye on the broader context and i think that — eye on the broader context and i think that is why private diplomacy has been _ think that is why private diplomacy has been something the americans are not going _ has been something the americans are not going to _ has been something the americans are not going to come out and use the language — not going to come out and use the language of restraint.— language of restraint. well, they have, virtually _ language of restraint. well, they have, virtually every _ language of restraint. well, they have, virtually every day. - language of restraint. well, they have, virtually every day. not. language of restraint. well, they| have, virtually every day. not the words. let's bring richard back in on that. you have heard leslie say a couple of times that the american approach seems to be delay, delay on the ground operation. do you —— do you get 8 cents and in trying to arrange the humanitarian situation, that the americans in some sense are working in vacuum of israeli leadership, that this kind of direct american involvement would not have been possible in 1973 are some of the previous crises the country has beenin? the previous crises the country has been in? i the previous crises the country has been in? ~' , ., . . been in? i think the diplomatic anule is been in? i think the diplomatic angle is very — been in? i think the diplomatic angle is very important - been in? i think the diplomatic angle is very important and - been in? i think the diplomatic angle is very important and i i been in? i think the diplomatic - angle is very important and i agree with the _ angle is very important and i agree with the panel that the egyptian buy in to get— with the panel that the egyptian buy in to get the humanitarian aid with tsraeti _ in to get the humanitarian aid with israeli agreement to go into the south _ israeli agreement to go into the south t — israeli agreement to go into the south i think is also very important that the _ south i think is also very important that the aid — south i think is also very important that the aid goes to the palestinian citizens— that the aid goes to the palestinian citizens and is not allowed to be co-opted — citizens and is not allowed to be co—opted by hamas to further aid their war— co—opted by hamas to further aid their war effort. co—opted by hamas to further aid theirwar effort. i co—opted by hamas to further aid their war effort. i also agree there was a _ their war effort. i also agree there was a big opportunity missed with the fact— was a big opportunity missed with the fact the second leg of the summit— the fact the second leg of the summit didn't take place, because i think— summit didn't take place, because i think that _ summit didn't take place, because i think that regional picture of having, _ think that regional picture of having, don't forget these are countries _ having, don't forget these are countries that israel has peace with, _ countries that israel has peace with, egypt and jordan, countries that israel has peace with, egypt andjordan, and countries that israel has peace with, egypt and jordan, and two weeks _ with, egypt and jordan, and two weeks ago people were quite excited at the _ weeks ago people were quite excited at the prospect of normalisation with saudi arabia. that is still the eye on— with saudi arabia. that is still the eye on the — with saudi arabia. that is still the eye on the prize of the us big picture — eye on the prize of the us big picture to— eye on the prize of the us big picture to bring in israel with the moderate — picture to bring in israel with the moderate pragmatic arab states and build a _ moderate pragmatic arab states and build a new middle east. i want to stress _ build a new middle east. i want to stress that— build a new middle east. i want to stress that israel's enemies are not the arabs— stress that israel's enemies are not the arabs at all, it is against luigi — the arabs at all, it is against luigi hardest and against hamas and the targets are not the innocent people — the targets are not the innocent people of— the targets are not the innocent people of gaza or any arabs or palestinians. we people of gaza or any arabs or palestinians.— people of gaza or any arabs or palestinians. ~ . . ~ , palestinians. we are quickly in the time available going _ palestinians. we are quickly in the time available going to _ palestinians. we are quickly in the time available going to look - palestinians. we are quickly in the time available going to look at - time available going to look at the possible end game and there is clearly a long way to go. simon, you are based in the region, how does this end? what does an endgame look like when it begins to come into sight? it like when it begins to come into siuht? . like when it begins to come into siuht? , ., . ., , sight? it ends with negotiation but it feels as though _ sight? it ends with negotiation but it feels as though that _ sight? it ends with negotiation but it feels as though that is _ sight? it ends with negotiation but it feels as though that is a - sight? it ends with negotiation but it feels as though that is a long - it feels as though that is a long way back to the head. israel is very angry and is hurting, israel has to do something, has to do something against hamas, but hamas is so intertwined in that very small patch of territory in gaza with civilians that precision targeting is incredibly difficult. achieving the eradication of hamas and its capabilities is almost impossible to do without affecting civilians, and that i think is the planning challenge that israel has right now. the restraint that america has continually privately urged, as you said, does that not conflict with the stated war aim that prime minister netanyahu came out west about destroying the hamas apparatus. does it not imply that hamas will remain embedded in palestinian society and how does it end? j palestinian society and how does it end? ~ palestinian society and how does it end? wider peace process that richard was referring to before?— referring to before? if gaza has levelled down, _ referring to before? if gaza has levelled down, it _ referring to before? if gaza has levelled down, it is _ referring to before? if gaza has levelled down, it is difficult - referring to before? if gaza has levelled down, it is difficult to i levelled down, it is difficult to see how — levelled down, it is difficult to see how you _ levelled down, it is difficult to see how you will— levelled down, it is difficult to see how you will get - levelled down, it is difficult to see how you will get a - levelled down, it is difficult to- see how you will get a competent, effective _ see how you will get a competent, effective governance _ see how you will get a competent, effective governance of _ see how you will get a competent, effective governance of a - see how you will get a competent, effective governance of a territoryl effective governance of a territory that is _ effective governance of a territory that is already _ effective governance of a territory that is already facing _ effective governance of a territory that is already facing massive - that is already facing massive misery — that is already facing massive nrisery. hamas— that is already facing massive misery. hamas is _ that is already facing massive misery. hamas is not - that is already facing massive misery. hamas is notjust- that is already facing massive misery. hamas is notjust ani misery. hamas is notjust an organisation, _ misery. hamas is notjust an organisation, it— misery. hamas is notjust an organisation, it is— misery. hamas is notjust an organisation, it is built - misery. hamas is notjust an organisation, it is built on i misery. hamas is notjust anj organisation, it is built on an idea — organisation, it is built on an idea you _ organisation, it is built on an idea. you want _ organisation, it is built on an idea. you want to _ organisation, it is built on anj idea. you want to undermine organisation, it is built on an- idea. you want to undermine that issue _ idea. you want to undermine that issue of— idea. you want to undermine that issue of resistance _ idea. you want to undermine that issue of resistance you _ idea. you want to undermine that issue of resistance you put - idea. you want to undermine that issue of resistance you put on - idea. you want to undermine thatj issue of resistance you put on the table _ issue of resistance you put on the table the — issue of resistance you put on the table the prospect _ issue of resistance you put on the table the prospect of— issue of resistance you put on the table the prospect of palestinian. table the prospect of palestinian statehood — table the prospect of palestinian statehood and _ table the prospect of palestinian statehood and without _ table the prospect of palestinian statehood and without that - table the prospect of palestinian statehood and without that you i table the prospect of palestinian - statehood and without that you don't -et statehood and without that you don't get momentum _ statehood and without that you don't get momentum. hamas _ statehood and without that you don't get momentum. hamas doesn't - statehood and without that you don't| get momentum. hamas doesn't want statehood and without that you don't i get momentum. hamas doesn't want it but the _ get momentum. hamas doesn't want it but the current— get momentum. hamas doesn't want it but the current government _ get momentum. hamas doesn't want it but the current government in - get momentum. hamas doesn't want it but the current government in israel. but the current government in israel also does _ but the current government in israel also does not — but the current government in israel also does not embrace _ but the current government in israel also does not embrace the _ but the current government in israel also does not embrace the idea - but the current government in israel also does not embrace the idea of. but the current government in israel also does not embrace the idea of al also does not embrace the idea of a two state _ also does not embrace the idea of a two state solution. _ also does not embrace the idea of a two state solution. if _ also does not embrace the idea of a two state solution. if president - two state solution. if president biden— two state solution. if president biden wants _ two state solution. if president biden wants to _ two state solution. if president biden wants to spend - two state solution. if president biden wants to spend capital, i two state solution. if president i biden wants to spend capital, and two state solution. if president - biden wants to spend capital, and i think— biden wants to spend capital, and i think it _ biden wants to spend capital, and i think it will — biden wants to spend capital, and i think it will be _ biden wants to spend capital, and i think it will be very— biden wants to spend capital, and i think it will be very difficult, - biden wants to spend capital, and i think it will be very difficult, the i think it will be very difficult, the conditions — think it will be very difficult, the conditions are _ think it will be very difficult, the conditions are much _ think it will be very difficult, the conditions are much harder- think it will be very difficult, the - conditions are much harder globally and regionatty— conditions are much harder globally and regionatty at _ conditions are much harder globally and regionally at this _ conditions are much harder globally and regionally at this point, - conditions are much harder globally and regionally at this point, but - conditions are much harder globally and regionally at this point, but if. and regionally at this point, but if he wants— and regionally at this point, but if he wants to — and regionally at this point, but if he wants to make _ and regionally at this point, but if he wants to make a _ and regionally at this point, but if he wants to make a difference, i and regionally at this point, but if| he wants to make a difference, he has to _ he wants to make a difference, he has to put — he wants to make a difference, he has to put irack— he wants to make a difference, he has to put back the _ he wants to make a difference, he has to put back the issue - he wants to make a difference, he has to put back the issue of- he wants to make a difference, he has to put back the issue of race i has to put back the issue of race two state — has to put back the issue of race two state solution _ has to put back the issue of race two state solution on _ has to put back the issue of race two state solution on the - has to put back the issue of race two state solution on the table. i has to put back the issue of race . two state solution on the table. on that two state solution on the table. that note, thank you all for two state solution on the tablem that note, thank you all forjoining us this evening. events in the middle east have stirred up public feeling worldwide. in the uk, demonstrations at the weekend frightened many in the jewish community. hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation, so the police do have powers to arrest people for explicit shows of support. but actions against extremist groups have also brought accusations of islamophobia. among those trying to strike a balance between freedom of speech and thwarting hate is the government's commissioner for counter extremism. the post was established after the 2017 attacks in london, and robin simcox, the current commissioner has given us his first british television interview. i began by asking about his concern for the potential for actual violence and civil strife here in the uk. i think the potential for violence and civil strife is very much a key issue. it's very much on my radar. i mean, extremist mindsets, extremist ideologies, lead to acts of terrorist violence and acts of hate crime. and at the moment, you canjust sense an atmosphere where, whether it's the tension in the middle east, whether it's issues to do with blasphemy and related issues to do with free speech, whether it's elements of tension around climate activism or the extreme right wing, there are a whole host of these flashpoints across different cultures, subcultures, communities and religions up and down the country. and i think it's such a grave challenge notjust for government, but for wider society as well. i mean, your focus was obviously on this before the events in israel and gaza. that's your job. i mean, what are you actually suggesting be done to counter extremism in that sense? well, there's several ways that we can think about countering extremism. so i would say the first one, the iranian networks that operate in the uk and the hamas—supportive networks that operate in the uk, which are especially on my mind at the moment, yet you'd be surprised how little understanding there still is around some of the ways in which they exactly work, just how deep their roots are, how they project influence. so, from my point of view, it's certainly about raising awareness across government about these kind of issues, it's about ensuring that government understands them more because the role of the commission for countering extremism is to kind of build up that knowledge and confidence. but there's also a whole host of things we need to do about ensuring that certain groups don't get access to government funding. engagement, training, is the prevent government's counter terrorism... counter terrorism prevention programme prevent operating properly? so in terms of your scrutiny, how many marks out of ten would you give the government in terms of its focus on this issue? well, i'd say overall, the government has got better on counter extremism in the last couple of years. the independent review of prevent, carried out by sir william shawcross, talked about the need to increase understanding of ideology. i think that is somewhere that can be improved. and we at the commission are doing a lot of work around training, around specific ideologies. but for some of the things that have happened in the last ten days or so, i think that the iranian networks and the hamas networks have been a bit of a blind spot, because hamas has only relatively recently been proscribed in its entirety. 2021. november 2021. and so before there was this distinction, you know, its political wing, its military wing. i think maybe that meant hamas didn't get the same attention that al-qaeda or the islamic state did. and maybe it wasn't viewed as being quite as pressing a security threat to the uk as we may now view it in the wake of what's happened in israel. how far is that about what you've called cultural timidity, worrying about upsetting people? oh, i think the cultural timidity part of this has been an ongoing problem. it's one of the things that i am, to be frank, kind of out of patience with. i mean, how many terrorist atrocities need to take place around the world, but also in the uk, before we just start to put aside the concern about endless offence and just say, ok, let's have an honest conversation about where the terrorist threats and extremist threats are in this country. let's identify them. let's ensure that our response is proportionate, based on evidence, realistic, but also a frank discussion of the nature of the threats we face. we've not always done that very well, i think, in this country. in terms of the insecurity felt by the jewish community, i think probably there's a feeling that these feelings are too widespread for the police or other authorities to guarantee their safety, and there seems there to be an echo of the situation with some of the iranian opposition, where they were told by the police that they couldn't guarantee their safety and certain people left this country as a result. it seems we're ineffectual in that sense. yeah, i think it should be a source of real reflection for us that iranianjournalists... thatjournalists are notjust fleeing iran because of the threat of the iranian government, they're also fleeing the uk now because of the threat of the iranian government and the capacity of the iranian government to have reach into the uk, to threaten... to threaten independentjournalists. so yeah, and to the point on how jewish communities feel around this, yeah, i think the numbers... how can you fail to be alarmed at the numbers of people who came out into the streets in the wake of this, of slaughter ofjews across israel? do these events provide you with the necessary impetus to get through more doors and concert a more active and effective government counter—extremism policy? what we have to do around this is we have to retain the memory of what happened to those 1400 people who were killed in the space of a few hours on that day in october. because just like every terrorist atrocity — 9—11, 7/7, manchester arena, take your pick. charlie hebdo — memories fade, anger fades, outrage fades, and inertia creeps in. and we kind of revert to the status quo. i can tell you from my point of view that i have no intent of letting what happened in israel and the effect it has on uk communities drop. thank you very much. thank you. of course, the diplomacy in tel aviv and jerusalem today comes against the backdrop of what many aid agencies have warned is a catastrophic situation in gaza today amidst israel's blockade and ongoing air strikes. joining us now in the studio melanie ward, ceo of medical aid for palestinians. welcome. we will try to get a better idea of what it is like, particularly for your people on the ground. ithink particularly for your people on the ground. i think you have a video you can talk us through, if we run that maybe you can tell us what is going on, let's see if that comes up. this is a video one _ on, let's see if that comes up. this is a video one of _ on, let's see if that comes up. this is a video one of my _ on, let's see if that comes up.t'13 is a video one of my colleagues sent it to me, he is an aid worker and took this video yesterday in a refugee camp in the middle area of gaza, in the part of gaza israel has told people to flee to. in the video he is looking through the rubble for the dead children of one of his friends. i spoke to him today and he is still in the rubble, they are trying to shift it and find the dead bodies. he was crying, he thinks they are all going to die and the situation is horrific. i'm having too many conversations like that with my colleagues, i have 20 staff in gaza, 18 of them are displaced. one of my team members, mohammed, on friday spent the day trying to get the last available medicine in gaza to the hospitals. israel bombed his house while he was on it, he, his wife and could survive but his 13—year—old niece died and he spent many hours trying to find her in the rubble, he said it was like a scene from the last days of humanity on earth. ., ., .,, ., i. earth. you mention most of your staff have _ earth. you mention most of your staff have left _ earth. you mention most of your staff have left their _ earth. you mention most of your staff have left their homes, - earth. you mention most of your staff have left their homes, are l staff have left their homes, are theyin staff have left their homes, are they in the southern area and what is their daily workload and experience like?— is their daily workload and experience like? is their daily workload and exerience like? ., , , . , , experience like? one of my staff is alread a experience like? one of my staff is already a refugee _ experience like? one of my staff is already a refugee in _ experience like? one of my staff is already a refugee in egypt - experience like? one of my staff is already a refugee in egypt because j already a refugee in egypt because she was out of gaza when they started, two had stayed in the north and will not move, they say they will not be part of the second exodus of palestinians from their land. others have fled to the south, the area meant to be safe, but they are under constant bombardment. some are under constant bombardment. some are in un provided shelters, some staying with relatives. they are running out of clean drinking water. one of my colleagues is a neonatal specialist and is boiling dirty water for her kids to try to keep them alive because they are running out of drinking water, another is running out of bread and food for people. it is important to understand the humanitarian system in gaza is collapsing. there is no shelter for people, in gaza is collapsing. there is no shelterfor people, not in gaza is collapsing. there is no shelter for people, not enough water, it is really dangerous. in water, it is really dangerous. in terms of the lack of a century, we have another image from an israeli military social media

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