after 18 arduous months, ukraine's conscripts and wounded wage a war with no end in sight. in our third film this week from the ukraine war, mark is on the front line in the east where the conflict seems to go on without end. also tonight, amid the rwanda refugee row, could the uk really leave the european convention on human rights that churchill helped to found? the home secretary suella braverman this week floated the idea, apparently with the approval of number 10? it's extremely unlikely that the government is going to withdraw from the echr. if you look at the judgements of the supreme court and indded of the supreme court and indeed the court in strasbourg, they have said rwanda is legal in principle. the defeats the government has suffered are on technical grounds. we discuss this and the battle for the soul of the conservative party ahead of its conference. and sir michael gambon, bafta and olivier award winner, with roles from professor dumbledore to the singing detective, dies aged 82. we hearfrom his hogwarts colleague, professor sprout, miriam margolyes. good evening. the new defence secretary grant shapps met ukraine's vlodomyr zelenskey in kyiv today, pledging to continue the uk's support for ukraine's fight against russia. but how long might that support be necessary? the reality is that the endgame in ukraine does not look close. the progress in kyiv�*s summer offensive has been slow, as autumn arrives and winter looms. on the ground, kyiv�*s foot soldiers, including thousands of conscripts, appearto be maintaining their motivation as they are redeployed to the front line trenches. there have been some spectacular strikes on russian military targets in occupied crimea, but the battle lines themselves are dug in, and seem unlikely to move significantly. this week on newsnight we've had a unique insight into the toll the conflict is taking on those at the front, and their families at home, through a series of films from our defence editor mark urban. hejoins me now. mark, what is kyiv expecting and wanting from britain now? we are getting to the end of fighting season in the coming weeks. and my word, you know, the new york times did a feature today, 40,000 occupied square miles of ukraine, a net gain of 143 of those 40 thousand square miles to ukraine during fighting so far this year. a gain for russia of 331. they have not even got more than the russians have. a lot of thought what they need to get through the winter. grant shapps referred to air defence, because it will default to a long range battle. the nato secretary general there too thinking about how to get ukraine into the next campaigning season. haw about how to get ukraine into the next campaigning season. how did you find morale on — next campaigning season. how did you find morale on the _ next campaigning season. how did you find morale on the front _ next campaigning season. how did you find morale on the front line? - next campaigning season. how did you find morale on the front line? i - find morale on the front line? 1 mean, remarkably find morale on the front line? i mean, remarkably determined under the circumstances. these guys have no idea when they're going home and they have to dig deep, psychologically and quite literally as we found on the front line. before they can go to the front, there are weeks of drills. we watched a mixture of new conscripts... ..and wounded who are being returned to combat, being put through their paces. this training ground near the polish border is a long way from the real fight, but it's the nearest the 24th brigade has to a home town. two years ago, the 24th had around 2,000 soldiers. volunteers and conscripts have flowed in, forming new battalions and boosting the brigade's strength to around 7,000. that more than trebling of numbers matches what's happened to the ukrainian army as a whole. and all the while casualties have had to be replaced, too. so thousands of troops have been fed through to the brigade. the ukrainian army has had to relearn the lesson, the bitter lesson of 20th century conflict, that war between states consumes lives on an enormous scale, and they're having to train reinforcements continuously here to put them up to the front. we saw quite a few older men here, and in recent months there's been a debate in ukraine about those who've dodged the call up and whether willingness to fight is diminishing. but for the wounded we spoke to, there's still a determination to serve. denis lost part of his hand in shelling, but, after months of treatment, he wants to get back to his mates in the brigade. i have a problem with middle fingers. medicine tried to save this finger. take bones from here. but it don't work. and it's cut. but it's ok. it's not my head, not my... . .any organs. vital organs? how long were you in hospital then? 0h, from february to the may. four months — three months. and do you have to go back to... or do you want to go back? i want to go back. but this finger has very bad working, and when it's make a little better, i go to the donbas. we headed east on one of ukraine's unstoppable night trains. so the soldiers fight in the far east of ukraine near bakhmut and most of them live in the far west. and that means several hundred kilometers separate them from their loved ones. and getting back and forth obviously consumes a great deal of time on those rare occasions when they get leave. this area around these villages has been the scene of fighting since russia began its intervention in the donbas nine years ago. jimmy commands a company — that's about 100 soldiers — it's currently holding a section of the front line, and he offered to take us up to the trenches. while there has recently been some ukrainian progress not far away near bakhmut, the front line here has been stable for a long time. we'd be heading to trenches just a few hundred metres from russian lines. some airburst shells landed not far away soon after we set off. they may have been aiming at ukrainian soldiers coming back from the trenches. but they're so used to sporadic shelling, that they stopped to pick figs. and happily, the weather was on our side. so they're moving with greater confidence down this road, although we're a very short distance from the russians, because the wind is bad for drones and that will keep us relatively safer as we go forward. as we got closer to what they call the zero line, the path through minefields got narrower and narrower. we went as far as we could go — to where they've pushed the positions forward. it's a new one. everything was burned. jimmy's survived multiple wounds, leading the men to think he's got a charmed life. he showed us to a place where we found soldiers busy trying to improve the protection offered by their trenches. the rain was falling, reminding everyone that autumn is coming. with the prospect of staying put here and the summer offensive having come and gone without delivering a decisive result. so the soldiers are resigned to staying here as the rain and cold come and their russian enemy stalks them. the men here have been conscripted or volunteered for the duration. they have no idea when they'll go home, which poses challenges for their commanders. and for those serving on, as with the brigade's artillery batteries, there's the knowledge that many thousands have bribed their way out of being called up, something we found one of the older volunteers remarkably philosophical about. you obviously have a strong feeling about the need to serve. what do you think about those people who are maybe giving bribes and things to avoid it? soldier singing this is an example of how they're keeping spirits up — a variety show brought to the soldiers in the field, complete with heaps of abuse for the invaders. there was a conjurer. and a mind reader too — taking the men's minds of their daily reality for a couple of hours, at least. top of the bill was singer daniela. whose lyrics about a faithful lover awaiting their return transported the soldiers to a happier place. as the war stretches on month after month, with no obvious end in sight, the question of the soldiers' psychological health, their ability to keep going, looms. and the army here makes every effort it can to try and bolster them at that level. but, when the performances were over, the buses pulled up, and the troops returned once again towards the battle. out on the front line, jimmy took us back from his forward positions. having walked up there, we were happy for a lift and no matter the state of the transport. the lines may not have changed much in this area during years of fighting, butjimmy reckons the invasion has helped them win another battle — that for open—ended support from the ukrainian public. at the end of these days with the brigade, we've learnt a story that reflects the wider ukrainian army story, which is of hard—won lessons early on, of great losses, but also of great forbearance and determination, coming through with grit and determination in a conflict which, let's face it, few of these soldiers have any idea how it will end. the transformation of attitudes is a result of national mobilization, in which the 24th brigade simply mirrors what's happened in the wider army. if peace requires difficult compromises, it could be hard to sell to these soldiers. mark urban, produced by louie harris white, filmed byjon hughes and edited by richard o'neill. the full bbc our world documentary — life, loss and waiting in ukraine — is now available to watch on—demand on bbc iplayer. and now i am joined here in studio byjohn foreman, former uk defence attache in moscow and kyiv, and solomiia bobrovska, deputy head of ukrainian delegation to the nato parliamentary assembly, who is in kyiv. thank you forjoining us. you may have heard there in mark's report 24th brigade in eastern ukraine, 18, 19 months into world war ii like trench, are they reaching reasonable liberal democrats of their endurance? i liberal democrats of their endurance?— liberal democrats of their endurance? ., ., endurance? i would say that -- limits i would _ endurance? i would say that -- limits i would say _ endurance? i would say that -- limits i would say to _ endurance? i would say that -- limits i would say to be - endurance? i would say that -- limits i would say to be in - endurance? i would say that -- - limits i would say to be in trenches alwayses, that means always faces the shell, so there was nothing new from the report, understanding that beside when russia increasing for example the production of the missiles, cruise missiles, they increasing production of the drones and they are using drones a lot, everyone much like the intensity of using drones is much higher, but thatis, using drones is much higher, but that is, that is like, to be in the trenches, in the 21st century is a very big challenge and the percentage of is viveing is very low and somehow we have to deal with that, and believe me, we are trying to find a solution of how to, with less resources, to be similar trick with response to, what russia is doing, and to be honest, russia is moving very fast, they are teaching fast, they are producing and increasing the production, very fast tempo, and i think that together with the partners we have to somehow, we have to deal with that, and to give a response. m0??? somehow, we have to deal with that, and to give a response.— and to give a response. now you are and to give a response. now you are a servin: and to give a response. now you are a serving reserve — and to give a response. now you are a serving reserve any _ and to give a response. now you are a serving reserve any special- a serving reserve any special operation, what is morale like on the ground? i operation, what is morale like on the ground?— operation, what is morale like on the ground? i am still, the morale is as my brothers _ the ground? i am still, the morale is as my brothers and _ the ground? i am still, the morale is as my brothers and sisters - the ground? i am still, the morale is as my brothers and sisters told | is as my brothers and sisters told you in your report, are the same, we are exhausted but we are ready to fight to the end, do not understand one, what they face, will they get, to see families and i think that sooner or later, the commander—in—chief has somehow to say, that guys, you need somehow like to restart your fiscal and psychological, you know forces, but to be sure, not really, in civilians, we are not ready to see any start of negotiations with the russian federation, besides our, exhausting fieldings. yes, winter is coming, but still two months before it, to fight. coming, but still two months before it, to fi . ht. , coming, but still two months before it, to fiuht. , ., it, to fight. 0k, let us sort of drawback _ it, to fight. 0k, let us sort of drawback and _ it, to fight. 0k, let us sort of drawback and look— it, to fight. 0k, let us sort of drawback and look at - it, to fight. 0k, let us sort of drawback and look at the - it, to fight. 0k, let us sort of. drawback and look at the bigger picture, with your military expertisejohn. it is the end of summer, how have you assessed the progress in what was the summer offensive, the extraordinary attacks on the black sea.— on the black sea. thank you for havin: on the black sea. thank you for having me. _ on the black sea. thank you for having me. you _ on the black sea. thank you for having me, you have _ on the black sea. thank you for having me, you have to - on the black sea. thank you for having me, you have to look. on the black sea. thank you for having me, you have to look at| on the black sea. thank you for. having me, you have to look at the offensive _ having me, you have to look at the offensive as — having me, you have to look at the offensive as one whole, navy, air, land, _ offensive as one whole, navy, air, land, information diplomacy, i think they have _ land, information diplomacy, i think they have had some success in some area, _ they have had some success in some area, the _ they have had some success in some area, the black sea and the strikes against _ area, the black sea and the strikes against crimea, i think progress on the land _ against crimea, i think progress on the land has been less than ukraine would _ the land has been less than ukraine would have — the land has been less than ukraine would have wished for, if you judge the ukrainian offensive against the ontive _ the ukrainian offensive against the ontive they set themselves they are not where _ ontive they set themselves they are not where they wanted to be, so you are now _ not where they wanted to be, so you are now seeing probably a slowing down _ are now seeing probably a slowing down of _ are now seeing probably a slowing down of the of phenomenon receive as they come _ down of the of phenomenon receive as they come towards the winter, originally— they come towards the winter, originally i think they would have wished _ originally i think they would have wished to— originally i think they would have wished to be closer to the sea and providing — wished to be closer to the sea and providing dilemmas to the russian, what the _ providing dilemmas to the russian, what the russian, what do you want to talk— what the russian, what do you want to talk about? but unfortunately as mark pointed out, the advance has been _ mark pointed out, the advance has been less. — mark pointed out, the advance has been less, therefore the ukrainians will have _ been less, therefore the ukrainians will have to — been less, therefore the ukrainians will have to use other weapons to create _ will have to use other weapons to create dilemmas for rush. i will have to use other weapons to create dilemmas for rush.- create dilemmas for rush. i have heard from _ create dilemmas for rush. i have heard from g7 _ create dilemmas for rush. i have heard from g7 leaders _ create dilemmas for rush. i have heard from g7 leaders at - create dilemmas for rush. i have heard from g7 leaders at each i create dilemmas for rush. i have - heard from g7 leaders at each stage they want to arm ukraine, they want them to win but that support is caveated, there is a limit, they don't want them in to win too quickly, too much, so, so much so, as to provoke moscow into something drastic, but that seems to have changed, those red lines seem to have moved. the changed, those red lines seem to have moved-— changed, those red lines seem to have moved. . , 1k ., , have moved. the last 18 months when it not to a have moved. the last 18 months when it got to a russian _ have moved. the last 18 months when it got to a russian red _ have moved. the last 18 months when it got to a russian red line, _ have moved. the last 18 months when it got to a russian red line, they - it got to a russian red line, they have _ it got to a russian red line, they have gone — it got to a russian red line, they have gone over it and the russians havent— have gone over it and the russians haven't done anything, i thing i got from _ haven't done anything, i thing i got from film _ haven't done anything, i thing i got from film was the heart of ukrainians, notjust in the field but the — ukrainians, notjust in the field but the families and officials in kyiv. _ but the families and officials in kyiv, think the west has to match the resolve — kyiv, think the west has to match the resolve of the ukrainian people, one of— the resolve of the ukrainian people, one of the _ the resolve of the ukrainian people, one of the key comments on the film was, one of the key comments on the film was. a _ one of the key comments on the film was. a sense — one of the key comments on the film was, a sense of realism this conflict _ was, a sense of realism this conflict is _ was, a sense of realism this conflict is not going to be over any time _ conflict is not going to be over any time soon. — conflict is not going to be over any time soon, it will last into next year— time soon, it will last into next year we — time soon, it will last into next year we have to provide the ukrainians the tools to get the job done _ ukrainians the tools to get the job done in _ ukrainians the tools to get the job done in 2024. we have to see this winter— done in 2024. we have to see this winter through and next winter if necessarv — winter through and next winter if necessary. let winter through and next winter if necessa . . winter through and next winter if necessa . , ., ., ., necessary. let me put that to our cuest. necessary. let me put that to our mesh the — necessary. let me put that to our guest. the idea _ necessary. let me put that to our guest. the idea of _ necessary. let me put that to our guest. the idea of cruise - necessary. let me put that to ourj guest. the idea of cruise missiles bloking up the black sea. 0 we wouldn't have thought that would happen a year, a, does that show you are getting some of the weaponry you need to win back your territory? absolutely for sure i want to thank you, and i think the russian fleet, that was on target, for the armed forces, the topic is very sensitive for russians, and it is a very principled thing to destroy russian fleet, and that shows what we... we... for modern 100, 200, 300 kilometre, to destroy their not only the fleet, it is not only about that it is about the logistics, the chain of logistics and finally, finally we see the results are and i think that is really absolutely great experience and result to show our partners, and to to see what we can do together with the normal work, we are having just what we can show the russians. if are having 'ust what we can show the russians. , ., ., ,., , are having 'ust what we can show the russians. , ., ., , ., russians. if you get the weapons how lona does russians. if you get the weapons how long does it — russians. if you get the weapons how long does it last? _ russians. if you get the weapons how long does it last? you _ russians. if you get the weapons how long does it last? you mean - russians. if you get the weapons how long does it last? you mean the - russians. if you get the weapons howj long does it last? you mean the war? yes. er, long does it last? you mean the war? yes. er. that— long does it last? you mean the war? yes- er. that is _ long does it last? you mean the war? yes. er, that is a _ long does it last? you mean the war? yes. er, that is a good _ long does it last? you mean the war? yes. er, that is a good question, - long does it last? you mean the war? yes. er, that is a good question, i - yes. er, that is a good question, i don't think— yes. er, that is a good question, i don't think that _ yes. er, that is a good question, i don't think that anyone _ yes. er, that is a good question, i don't think that anyone can, - yes. er, that is a good question, i don't think that anyone can, can l don't think that anyone can, can answer this, unfortunately. don't think that anyone can, can answerthis, unfortunately. buti think it would be much more faster than we are talking about, six, five, ten years, what we have according to the intelligence, russian also have resources up to 250 years. russian also have resources up to 250 ears. ~ ., russian also have resources up to 250 years-— russian also have resources up to 250 ears. ~ ., ., ., , ., 250 years. wow, and what should the workin: 250 years. wow, and what should the working assumption, _ 250 years. wow, and what should the working assumption, there _ 250 years. wow, and what should the working assumption, there is - 250 years. wow, and what should the working assumption, there is knock. working assumption, there is knock on effectsjohn, from this, on economic, and on diplomacy, what would the working assumption of when this gets settled or do we have a stalemate? brute this gets settled or do we have a stalemate?— this gets settled or do we have a stalemate? ~ ., , ., [k stalemate? we have been at it 18 month, putin's _ stalemate? we have been at it 18 month, putin's all— stalemate? we have been at it 18 month, putin's all in, _ stalemate? we have been at it 18 month, putin's all in, he - stalemate? we have been at it 18 month, putin's all in, he has - month, putin's all in, he has committed everything, he knows he cannot— committed everything, he knows he cannot lose — committed everything, he knows he cannot lose the war, he won't retain his grip _ cannot lose the war, he won't retain his grip on _ cannot lose the war, he won't retain his grip on power, he is mobilising and continuing to send stough the front line. — and continuing to send stough the front line, the only hope, i think at this— front line, the only hope, i think at this stage, is to help ukraine notjust— at this stage, is to help ukraine notjust defend itself at this stage, is to help ukraine not just defend itself but a defeat russia _ not just defend itself but a defeat russia in — not just defend itself but a defeat russia in the field, to get away that hesitation you spoke about earlier. — that hesitation you spoke about earlier. to — that hesitation you spoke about earlier, to provide jobs to get the 'ob earlier, to provide jobs to get the job done. — earlier, to provide jobs to get the job done, next year or the year after— job done, next year or the year after but — job done, next year or the year after but we should realistic for the longer term. after but we should realistic for the longerterm. notjust after but we should realistic for the longer term. notjust towards ukraine _ the longer term. notjust towards ukraine but globally against russia. we must _ ukraine but globally against russia. we must leave that there. thank you very much good night. the home secretary was criticised by the un earlier this week when she declared multiculturalism had failed and questioned whether the architecture of the global refugee system was any longerfit for purpose, including a signal of intent for the uk to potentially leave the european convention on human rights. the prime minister declined to publicly endorse that notion today — despite reports number 10 had signed off suella braverman's speech given in washington. it is of course the court in strasburg that oversees the echr and british courts' interpretation of the convention have grounded efforts to get her rwanda refugee plan airborne. but a push to leave the echr could further split the conservative party's various wings and the convention is integrated into the northern ireland peace deal and the uk's brexit deal with the eu. it was created, of course, in the bloody aftermath of world war two. but could the uk now step away? here's nick. for us, and for all who share our civilisation... a convention applying across europe, to protect human rights. consensus around its merits over the channel, and political consensus back home. but over the last decade, a succession of prime ministers have grown wary of the european court of human rights, which enforces the convention. home secretary, the floor is yours. and now the home secretary directly raising the prospect of a uk withdrawal. i reject the notion that a country cannot be expected to respect human rights, if it is not signed up to an international human rights organisation. as if the uk doesn't have a proud history of human rights dating back to magna carta and the echr is all that is holding us back from becoming russia. wording agreed by number ten. fuller explanation of suella braverman's thinking. ..the supreme court on the basis of our association... newsnight spoke earlier this month to one of her close allies. it has had a creeping role. it's her view, is no longer simply about avoiding those kind of atrocities, that sort of tyranny. it is now becoming involved in all kind of things. you'll remember when david cameron was prime minister, he resisted insistence of the european court that people in prison should be given votes. big questions after the court of appeal in london ruled injune, that the government's policy of flying cross—channel migrants to rwanda does not comply with the uk's obligations under the echr. the uk supreme court is hearing a government appeal against that next month. newsnight understands that the government is working out a series of options, depending on what the supreme court decides. a government loss will put uk membership front and centre. one minister tells me. an outright withdrawal was described as unlikely, that would be like another brexit is the word. but disapplying aspect of the echr is seen as more likely. even if the government wins, ministers are still planning to act to act because they expect further legal challenges. top of the list, is enacting a clause in recent legislation, to bypass rule 39 orders under the convention — interim injections that have blocked flights. stopping small boats is a defining issue for this government, and so thatjudgement by the supreme court in the next few monday also be a big moment, rishi sunak obviously can't decide that, but he does want to show he has a plan, hence those question marks over the uk's continuing membership of the echr. that is being welcomed in some quarters of the party but is lazings eyebrows among others. —— raising. so why is the home secretary floating this idea? i think in part, it is a signal to the echr. it's a political court although they won't admit it. the actions of government do have an effect on rulings, so i think that some minister and people in government might hope if they can sway strasbourg judges that too many rulings will lead to the uk withdrawing it might take them to come to a more benign view. this is our finest hour _ come to a more benign view. this is our finest hour if _ come to a more benign view. this is our finest hour if you _ come to a more benign view. this is our finest hour if you like, _ come to a more benign view. this is our finest hour if you like, winston l our finest hour if you like, winston churchill _ our finest hour if you like, winston churchill wants other countries to 'oin churchill wants other countries to join it~ _ churchill wants other countries to join it he — churchill wants other countries to join it. he went round getting other countries _ join it. he went round getting other countries to — join it. he went round getting other countries tojoin it join it. he went round getting other countries to join it and support join it. he went round getting other countries tojoin it and support it on the _ countries tojoin it and support it on the grounds that human rights have _ on the grounds that human rights have to _ on the grounds that human rights have to be — on the grounds that human rights have to be a baseline, countries have _ have to be a baseline, countries have their— have to be a baseline, countries have their laws on top of that but there _ have their laws on top of that but there has— have their laws on top of that but there has to be a baseline, only russia — there has to be a baseline, only russia and _ there has to be a baseline, only russia and belarus doesn't it means we can no longer take moral positions _ it means we can no longer take moral positions against china or the saudi arabia _ positions against china or the saudi arabia about the murder of a journalist. arabia about the murder of a journalist-— arabia about the murder of a “ournalist. ., .., ~ journalist. your day in court. and soon, journalist. your day in court. and soon. the — journalist. your day in court. and soon, the most _ journalist. your day in court. and soon, the most senior— journalist. your day in court. and soon, the most seniorjudges - journalist. your day in court. and soon, the most seniorjudges in l journalist. your day in court. and i soon, the most seniorjudges in the land are deciding on one of the most politically charged issues in the land. well, joining me now, the conservative mp for dudley north and in favour of withdrawing from some parts of the ec hr and the attorney general from 2020 who is parts of the ec hr and the attorney generalfrom 2020 who is in parts of the ec hr and the attorney general from 2020 who is in favour of remaining within it. you heard there in the report, churchill favoured the charter the rights. it's a set of norms which has applied to british values when fascism and communism was rife. yes. fascism and communism was rife. yes, that's riaht fascism and communism was rife. yes, that's right and — fascism and communism was rife. yes, that's right and i _ fascism and communism was rife. yes, that's right and i think— fascism and communism was rife. yes, that's right and i think it _ fascism and communism was rife. is: that's right and i think it was a fantastic document that was generated back in 1953 to protect these basic human rights for everybody and i completely agree that that was the right thing to do but there is nothing to say that we cannot actually have the same set of rights, perhaps even an improved version while at the same time dealing with those aspects of the echr that are currently being completely abused by vast numbers of lawyers who are more intent on either wanting to feather their own nest or actually want to believe that that's for whatever reason it's the right thing to stay in because of the reputation or damage it could have to the united kingdom. reputation point is real because on the continent of europe we've been —— we would be in a club with belarus and russia outside of this if we followed your advice. it’s if we followed your advice. it's almost if we followed your advice. it�*s almost patronising to think that we as a united kingdom can have a set of rights that are perhaps an improvement on the echr itself whilst also dealing with the issues at the moment that we are having with the echr in where there are elements of it are clearly being abused. this is a document written 70 years ago which was fit for purpose then but is not fit for purpose then but is not fit for purpose now. it's entirely different circumstances we have to deal with now. we can deal with the issue but let's see what the supreme court actually decide. we can either exit, which is in my view the cleanest way to do this or you can cut—and—paste one with other with a laser—like focus and look at what is not working and actually improve on it. i do not see a problem with that. let me put some of this to dominic. can you acknowledge that this is the product of something 70 years ago in what was envisaged back then has changed. it’s what was envisaged back then has chanced. v . what was envisaged back then has chanced. �*, ., ., ., ., changed. it's an international treaty and — changed. it's an international treaty and yes _ changed. it's an international treaty and yes it _ changed. it's an international treaty and yes it has - changed. it's an international l treaty and yes it has developed changed. it's an international - treaty and yes it has developed over time and _ treaty and yes it has developed over time and i_ treaty and yes it has developed over time and i have some criticisms of some _ time and i have some criticisms of some decisions that strasbourg has made _ some decisions that strasbourg has made but _ some decisions that strasbourg has made but you cannot pick and choose the convention. it's international. you have — the convention. it's international. you have to — the convention. it's international. you have to do a cross benefit analysis — you have to do a cross benefit analysis if— you have to do a cross benefit analysis if we were to pull out as is being — analysis if we were to pull out as is being suggested. first of all, it may foul— is being suggested. first of all, it may foul up relations with our european _ may foul up relations with our european partners. it's unworkable. our participation in the horizon project. — our participation in the horizon project. it— our participation in the horizon project, it would create immense problems— project, it would create immense problems in northern ireland but because — problems in northern ireland but because we are duty bound that northern— because we are duty bound that northern ireland stays in the convention but how would we do that if britain _ convention but how would we do that if britain pulls out i do not know. we lose — if britain pulls out i do not know. we lose our— if britain pulls out i do not know. we lose our leverage for improving human— we lose our leverage for improving human rights standards elsewhere which _ human rights standards elsewhere which is _ human rights standards elsewhere which is why we originally signed up in the _ which is why we originally signed up in the first— which is why we originally signed up in the first place. but which is why we originally signed up in the first place.— in the first place. but it's making big judgment _ in the first place. but it's making big judgment on _ in the first place. but it's making big judgment on social _ in the first place. but it's making big judgment on social issues. i big judgment on social issues. policing, all the big social issues. it's a living instrument, if it were not we _ it's a living instrument, if it were not we would still be able to criminalise homosexuality and that is where _ criminalise homosexuality and that is where it — criminalise homosexuality and that is where it has evolved but it makes absolutely _ is where it has evolved but it makes absolutely no difference to the immigration problem that the government has been talking about. so you _ government has been talking about. so you need to get a sense of perspective and in the last ten years. — perspective and in the last ten years. we _ perspective and in the last ten years, i've not seen a judgment that has caused — years, i've not seen a judgment that has caused a — years, i've not seen a judgment that has caused a problem to the united kingdom _ has caused a problem to the united kingdom and they were only two live judgments against us last year and they concern things like freedom for journalists _ they concern things like freedom for journalists and discrimination against — journalists and discrimination against bereavement payments. so, in fact, against bereavement payments. so, in fact. many— against bereavement payments. so, in fact. many of— against bereavement payments. so, in fact, many of the problems associated with the issue were resolved — associated with the issue were resolved by ken clarke in the brighton _ resolved by ken clarke in the brighton agreement. he resolved by ken clarke in the brighton agreement. resolved by ken clarke in the briahton aareement. . ., �* brighton agreement. he says it won't help whether — brighton agreement. he says it won't help whether everyone _ brighton agreement. he says it won't help whether everyone is _ brighton agreement. he says it won't help whether everyone is a _ brighton agreement. he says it won't help whether everyone is a policy - help whether everyone is a policy because it's to do with the refugee convention. i because it's to do with the refugee convention-— convention. i didn't catch everything _ convention. i didn't catch everything you _ convention. i didn't catch everything you said - convention. i didn't catch | everything you said there. convention. i didn't catch - everything you said there. all i will say is if we are wanting to get this in context, all i can say to you is that my constituents are interested in national sovereignty but they are interested in national security as well and if we are known to be talking on the time about international reputation of this country, i can tell you, i'm more interested in the national security as well and if we are known to be talking all the time about international reputation of this country, i can tell you, i'm more interested in the national—security side of things and my constituents who can't find council houses because the country is full right now. we need to talk about common sense here and if it's every time the european convention on human rights becomes... by implementing the real wanda policy then we need to deal with the problems with the echr which are preventing us from doing so that... your party has delivered brexit. you've been in powerfor 13 years. you've been in powerfor 13 years. you are continually blaming ahr but it's always somebody else's fault. immigration has gone up since brexit. �* . . immigration has gone up since brexit. �* , ., ., brexit. i've been and advocate in wantin: brexit. i've been and advocate in wanting to _ brexit. i've been and advocate in wanting to deal _ brexit. i've been and advocate in wanting to deal with _ brexit. i've been and advocate in wanting to deal with the - brexit. i've been and advocate in wanting to deal with the policy i brexit. i've been and advocate in| wanting to deal with the policy for a long time. all from courts over in strasbourg or wherever else in europe. that's what's at the core of us not being able to implement what the country voted for three brexit which was to take back control of our borders and laws and we... right. it's pandering to those blairite views, the left of the conservative party but we should deal with these in a conservative way, by stopping certain people from coming in. we way, by stopping certain people from cominu in. ~ ., ., ., coming in. we learned today of the death of legendary _ coming in. we learned today of the death of legendary actor _ coming in. we learned today of the death of legendary actor michael i death of legendary actor michael gambon. younger audiences mainly know him as professor dumbledore, a role he took over after the death of richard harris. but for some generations he will be immortalised as philip harlow. here he is in dennis potter buzz semiautobiographical piece the singing detective. ida. semiautobiographical piece the singing detective.— semiautobiographical piece the singing detective. no, you can't. no, singing detective. no, you can't. no. please. _ singing detective. no, you can't. no, please, wait. _ singing detective. no, you can't. no, please, wait. that's- singing detective. no, you can't. no, please, wait. that's murder! singing detective. no, you can't. - no, please, wait. that's murder! no, please don't. igraffiti no, please, wait. that's murder! no, please don't-— please don't. will you listen to that? murder, _ please don't. will you listen to that? murder, he _ please don't. will you listen to that? murder, he says. - please don't. will you listen to that? murder, he says. i- please don't. will you listen to that? murder, he says. i call. please don't. will you listen to that? murder, he says. i call itj that? murder, he says. i call it pruning — that? murder, he says. i call it pruning. only one of us is going to walk out— pruning. only one of us is going to walk out of— pruning. only one of us is going to walk out of here sweeter than the roses _ walk out of here sweeter than the roses |_ walk out of here sweeter than the roses. ~' walk out of here sweeter than the roses. ~ , ., �* , ., ., roses. i think you've been overdoing it aaain. roses. i think you've been overdoing it again- where _ roses. i think you've been overdoing it again. where are _ roses. i think you've been overdoing it again. where are you? _ roses. i think you've been overdoing it again. where are you? too - roses. i think you've been overdoing it again. where are you? too many. it again. where are you? too many --eole it again. where are you? too many people were _ it again. where are you? too many people were beginning _ it again. where are you? too many people were beginning to - it again. where are you? too many people were beginning to ask- it again. where are you? too many people were beginning to ask the l people were beginning to ask the same _ people were beginning to ask the same question and it wasn't because they wanted to polish my shoes for me. they wanted to polish my shoes for me no. _ they wanted to polish my shoes for me no. sir~ — music: teddy bear's picnic earlier, i spoke to his harry potter co—star and dearfriend miriam co—star and dear friend miriam margoyles co—star and dearfriend miriam margoyles about his legacy. iie co-star and dear friend miriam margoyles about his legacy. he was deliuhtful, margoyles about his legacy. he was delightful, mischievous _ margoyles about his legacy. he was delightful, mischievous with - margoyles about his legacy. he was delightful, mischievous with a -