Prime minister kaja kallas, welcome to hardtalk. Of all the voices of support for ukraine in europe, yours has perhaps been the staunchest, the strongest, the loudest over the last 18 months. Is that because, for you, this isntjust about european security, about geopolitics, it also seems very personal . Well, it is personal, i guess, for, for every estonian. I mean, we are here in the state elder� s room and the pictures you see on those walls are of our state elders, so who built our country in 1920s. And if you look at their dates of death, then they all were killed or died in captivity when the occupation started. So for us. They were killed in the soviet union . Yes, so this is what we see in ukraine, is our history reliving itself because of the russian aggression. And yourfamily history, if im right, i think your mother was deported, along with her mother when she was a baby. Yes, my mother was six months old baby when she was deported to siberia, together with my grandmother and my great grandmother. So they were deported in a cattle wagon, and you can see that cattle wagon here, as well. So i understand, everybody would understand, that, foryou, standing up to aggression from the kremlin, from moscow, has a long history and it has a deep personal importance, but surely right now youre facing a challenge to stand back from the emotion and look at what is happening in terms of the ukraine war with rational eyes. And would you acknowledge that right now things are getting more difficult for those of you who are supporting, backing ukraine . It was seen that its going to be harder every day because when the war is continuing, and we said in the beginning that we are in this for the long haul, because the russians clearly are, and we have to keep supporting ukraine, but its also clear that all the supporters are democratic countries, which means that all the domestic issues kick in and other worries kick in, and ukraine seems further away. But i think still, if we dont increase our support or if we dont support ukraine so that they can defend themselves and russia wins, then were going to pay a much, much higher price. And not only us here, but the whole, whole world. But you obviously have seen, in the last few days, diplomacy, which from the Point Of View of ukraine has become very difficult with allies, not least with poland. The issue being grain exports from ukraine, which poland, along with other neighbouring countries like slovakia and hungary, have banned, and the eu backed that ban. But the eu has now lifted the ban, leaving the poles and the slovakians and the hungarians deeply unhappy at the prospect of ukrainian grain undermining their markets. Theyre trying to negotiate a solution, but right now it has exposed deep cracks in the coalition. Well, first of all, we have to zoom out of the picture and understand that why we have this grain issue in the first place, and it is because of the russian blockade and we wouldnt have that if we wouldnt have a war in ukraine and if we wouldnt have the problems we have on the black sea right now. So that is the main, main source of the problem. But the reality is, in the last few days, weve seen ukraine launch a suit against poland and the others at the wto. Weve seen poland respond, in the words of the Prime Minister, by saying, we are no longer supplying weapons to ukraine. We have seen real anger on both sides. Does this worry you . Of course it worries me in a sense that all these kind of spats actually play for russia. This is what russia has wanted to see from the beginning, that there are cracks in our unity, and we have stayed united for all this time. The tensions are clearly deriving from the internal politics that, you know, poland has elections coming. I think right now its still fundamental to focus on the solutions, and im glad to see that they have sat down and, you know, kissed and made up and we can continue still. Well, i dont know if it was quite kissing and making up. Certainly there are efforts to resolve the immediate crisis, but its left a sour taste. Heres something that president zelensky said the other day. He said, some european allies are undermining solidarity with political theatre. Do you agree . I can see the tensions and i can also see that, you know, president zelensky has made some very strong remarks before that has also infuriated some of the allies, if you think about what happened during the nato summit. Why this is echoing so much is that all the allies feel that we have done a lot for ukraine, but we still have to do a lot more in order for them to defend themselves. I guess the problem is that its clear now the war isnt going to end any time soon. The counteroffensive launched earlier this year by the ukrainians has gained some small territories, but it has not been the major breakthrough, the breaking of that Land Corridor between crimea and the donbas, which the ukrainians hope to achieve. Does it worry you that right now there are real questions about whether various different elements of the us European Western Alliance against putin can hold together . Well, first of all, on the counteroffensive, i must say that the counteroffensive has been going on since 2a february. So if you compare that, they have made huge efforts and also gained the territories back that russia has occupied. But, of course, we would all want to see this going further. But the question is to us all, have we done enough . And my question is, if all the allies would have given all the military aid that we are giving now already in february orjanuary, like we did in � 22, then maybe the outcome would have been different. So ukraine can defend itself as long as we support them with military aid. And there is a question to us, how can we do this more . One example you in estonia have given, if you add up the military plus the economic plus the humanitarian assistance youve given to ukraine, it represents at least one whole per cent of gdp. The same figure in a big, major european country like france is less than one tenth per capita of what youve given. Yes. What do you think of that . Yeah, we all come from our history. And, i mean, Different Countries in europe have different history. And therefore, for us, as i said, its very black and white. Its our history, you know, reliving this, our history, in ukraine right now. And thats why we want to avoid what happened to us 50 years of occupation, all the atrocities, Mass Deportations, killings of people, pressing down our culture. We want to avoid that, and therefore our defence right now starts from ukraine. Ukraine is fighting our enemy. Maybe in some other countries. And ive been reading about the history of different allies, to understand where they come from, and their worries have been totally different. So i actually say that its very positive compared to 2014, when crimea was annexed, how much we have done now and how we have kept this unity for one and a half years and given more and more. And those planes and big, Big Equipment will come eventually. Just one more big thought on the geopolitics. Are you, as a european leader, deeply concerned about the Political Uncertainty in the united states, ie what would happen if donald trump or maybe even a different republican were to win the white house in 202a . Because trump and all of the other. Right now, the top three republican candidates for that nomination are all saying they want an immediate cessation of hostilities, they want to talk to putin, they want to do a deal with putin. Trump says he could do that deal in 2a hours, which in essence means he would be negotiating territorial compromise. Does that worry you . All these talks worry us, i mean, all these talks that are actually not about sustainable peace. And why i say sustainable peace is that peace that lasts, this is our interest. And therefore, we have to talk about more what are the elements of a sustainable peace. And one of those elements is accountability for the crimes committed in ukraine. But i mean, elections, all the allies are democratic countries and we have to work with all the leaders of different allies that their democratic elections bring. Can you imagine working with donald trump on ukraine, given his positions . Of course, we have to explain this situation more and more. I mean, donald trump. Hes not a man likely to take explanation or lecture from europe, is he . No, this is true but at the same time, america is notjust one person. America is much larger. You have checks and balances in place. And also, i have been talking to both sides of the aisle of american politics. And there are very strong voices, both in the republicans as well as democrats, to support ukraine as long as it takes. And i think, you know, america has been always the leader of the democratic world and everybody is looking up to them. And i think President Biden has done a lot and his leadership has been vital for the support to ukraine. Lets bring it closer to home, talk about the way the war is impacting on estonia. Im going to begin with a pretty extraordinary statement by the polish president , duda, in new york at the Un General Assembly just a few days ago. He said ukraine is like a drowning man who will drag down those who are trying to help him. Put that into the frame of estonia and estonias security. Could it be that your preoccupation right now with supporting ukraine is actually endangering estonias long term security . Well, definitely not. Defence is not an escalation. And we are members of nato, as is uk, for example. So we have, in addition to our own defence, we have the collective defence of nato. Yeah, but im just thinking in practical terms. Youve stripped your arsenal, your weapon stores, bare to send stuff to ukraine. As i understand it, pretty much all of your Iss Millimetre Artillery has gone to ukraine. Your own Intelligence Service reports that while a Military Attack against estonia from russia is unlikely in the short term, in the mid to long term, russias belligerence and Foreign Policy ambitions have significantly increased the Security Risks here in estonia. Yes, and thats why its very, very important that we try to stop this cycle of aggression, because if Ukraine Falls and russia wins this war, then there will be more atrocities all across the world. And im not talking about europe only, but more widely. But i wanted to say about those ammunition, i mean, we saw that the war is coming already injanuary, or actually before that. And what we did, we made very important decisions on 18 january. I remember we went into procurement to procure ammunition, all the things that we needed, because when we saw that the war is coming, then everybody will do that. And therefore, we are actually in much better position than everybody else. Right, but you have an enormous strain of ukrainian refugees. Youre a very small population, 1. 3 million. Again, per capita, i believe youve taken more ukrainian refugees than anybody else. Its hit your economy hard, this war. Energy prices surged last year, inflation went beyond 20 . The Opposition Parties are saying it is time for kaja kallas to look after estonians and stop being so preoccupied with ukrainians. Yeah, and im happy to say that the Electricity Prices have dropped 74 compared to last august, and inflation is 4. 6 , so we are the 19th in europe. And our inflation is going down, while in other countries its going up. So, actually and by the way, we have a huge proportion of ukrainian refugees, youre right. But what is interesting, it hasnt really increased much of our unemployment. In terms of refugees, like 52 of them are working also in estonia. So, i mean, we are a small country with a big heart. We have helped ukrainians and ukrainian refugees here, and i think we survive. Do you have a big heart for the 25 , roughly, of your population for whom russian is a first language . Because they dont feel it. Well, why do you say they dont feel it . Imean. Well, i can go through a list of reasons they dont feel it. Many of them feel that your determination to take down all of those soviet memorials to the war dead from the soviet past, that thats a provocation to those who speak russian first. They also look at the fact youve now banned all Motor Vehicles from entering estonia with russian plates. In fact, russian opposition people are saying thats a stupid thing to do because there are many exiles here who hate putin. But you. Are mixing two things. The russians who are living here, we call them russian speaking estonians, and russia aside. So what i want to say first, in 1920s, the russian population in estonia was 3 , and by the end of occupation, it was 30. So it is not that. Are you saying theyre not therefore real estonians . No, no, im saying that those who want to be with estonia, who consider estonia their home, have applied for citizenship, have learned our language and are part of our society, which is majority of our russian speaking population. But of course, there are also those who dont feel that well. And what is interesting is that those people who are much closer to the russian border, they can see very well that the life on the other side in russia is so much worse, that they dont really believe the propaganda because they know its better in estonia. But for us, it is important. Just one thing we ask learn our language, because this is how we live here and this is the way to integrate those. And also what i want to stress is that even if we have different history, we have a common future, and we concentrate on that. Prime minister, how embarrassing has it been for you as an arch supporter of ukraine, somebody determined to maintain tough sanctions against putin, to encourage him to roll back his invasion of ukraine, how embarrassing has it been for the estonian media to reveal that your own husband had business interests inside russia long after the February 2022 invasion . First of all, my husband does not have russian ties or has not had russian ties. This is very important. What he did, he had a Minority Shareholding in a company that helped one Estonian Company to end its business in russia. Yes, active inside russia, trading in russia until at least november 2020. No, no, not trading in russia. So, helping this other Estonian Company. But when i learned about this, of course its embarrassing. And when i learned about this, i talked to my husband, and of course even this helping of this Estonian Company ended. But hadnt your husband told you about it during the course of his business . He had this company, stark. They were involved with metaprint, the Actual Company that was doing the business in russia. I believe youd given your Husband A Loan which he had then used for his investments. Surely you discussed what these investments were . No, i mean, ive been given. I gave a loan to another finance Investment Company so that was another business because my husband was an investment banker. Itjust seems a little unlikely to many estonians that you had no idea of any of these business connections. But is it . I mean, im notan actor. I wouldnt be such an Ardent Supporter of ukraine and saying to our companies that you have to find your moral compass to end any ties with russia when i had known that my own husband is actually helping one Estonian Company on the russian territory. I mean, i couldnt have done that. Were you angry with him . Of course and how has that resolved itself . Well, the next day. When i learned about this, the next day they declared that theyre going to stop this business, and friday after this wednesday, they also. I mean, he sold his business at all. And now, right now, i have a husband back home that every day is really, really feeling so guilty about all these things. But hes not a politician, so he didnt see this threat from the helping of the Estonian Company, because what he said. Im just saying what he said to me he said to me, for me, it is important that we dont fuel the russian war machine so we dont leave one single euro, dollar, pound or rouble on the soil of russia or to the russian companies. Well, you talk about the embarrassment. The bottom line is that the opposition called for your resignation. The president of estonia rebuked you, saying that it had damaged trust in politics. And according to the state broadcaster, in their most recent poll, 69 of estonians thought that you should step down. Have you considered your resignation . Its politics, this is. 69 of people wanting you to go, having not so long ago won an election with your coalition. Its a disaster. But, no, if you turn this around, if you look at the polls that ask, who do you support as the Prime Minister . , then my support has always been around 30 . So if you turn this around, it hasnt really changed much, has it . Have you considered resigning over this . Because youre clearly embarrassed. Of course. Of course i have thought about this, but ive been speaking to different people, and i couldnt really defend myself if i stepped down. Then this would stick to me. But, i mean, i havent done anything wrong. My stance is exactly the same as it was before, and proof of that is also my husbands dealings with the shareholding and selling the shareholding immediately when this came out. I want to end where i began. I described you as one of the staunchest, strongest supporters of ukraine amongst european leaders. I therefore want to ask you how you think right now this war is going to end. In the past, youve staked out a Maximalist Position in terms of ukraines victory. Youve said that russia Must Withdraw from every inch of ukraine, just as it withdrew from afghanistan in the 1980s. I would put it to you that at some point it may be people like you will have to consider something short of that