here is in news. the government has been accused of taking a sticking plaster approach to carrying out seven that will maintenance on school buildings by the head of the spending watchdog the national audit office, more than 100 schools haven't re—opened this week. the school's minister has defended the government and says it spends 1.8 billion a year on school maintenance and improvements. a bbc investigation has found three uk water companies wessex, southern and tames water appear to have illegally discharged sewage hundreds of times last year in dry weather, the practice can take place when it is wet, but can cause environmental damage when it is dry, wessex water says there is some issues with the data it provided. scotland's first minister will set out his programme for government in a speech this afternoon, early years childcare is expected to be the focus of the announcement. and 200 women in the uk who claim they were left in pain after having a permanent contraceptive device fit have had been given the go—ahead to take group legal action against the manufacture e. the german maker of the coil says it will defend itself against the claims. some are seeing this as a bigger point, a political turning point what is going on at the moment and just, scanning the conservative supporting newspapers, like the telegraph saying journalists know there is no point pandering to an administration in its final throws, the sun gaffe—prone tories potty—mouthed tirade, and yesterday on this programme as i said, right here on bbc radio 5 live, and bbc sounds and bbc two and bbc news it is an unfortunate metaphor this for the government, crumbling, disintegrating and all that, where do you point the finger of blame in all this? let us have another listen, another look at what the secretary of state for education gillian keegan said yesterday, we have done a bit of bleeping here. here. we have done a bit of bleeping here. here. ~ ., , ., have done a bit of bleeping here. here. ~ . , ., ., , here. we will get a plan and every one of them _ here. we will get a plan and every one of them will— here. we will get a plan and every one of them will be _ here. we will get a plan and every one of them will be done. - here. we will get a plan and every one of them will be done. thank l here. we will get a plan and every i one of them will be done. thank you. does anyone ever say you know what you have done a (bleep) good job because everyone has sat on their (bleep) and no sign of that? here is the a oloa (bleep) and no sign of that? here is the apology i — (bleep) and no sign of that? here is the apology i wasn't _ (bleep) and no sign of that? here is the apology i wasn't talking - (bleep) and no sign of that? here is the apology i wasn't talking about i the apology i wasn't talking about an one in the apology i wasn't talking about anyone in particular, _ the apology i wasn't talking about anyone in particular, it— the apology i wasn't talking about anyone in particular, it was - the apology i wasn't talking about anyone in particular, it was an - anyone in particular, it was an off—the—cuff remark after the news interview had finished or apparently after it had finished and i would like to apologise for my choice language, that was unnecessary, but basically, based on the interview, it has been pressing me quite hard understanding why i hadn't solved this issue which had been going on since 1994 and it is frustrating because we are doing everything to take a leading position, to be on the front foot, to put all of the support in place that responsible bodies and schools need and it is frustrating we have some questionnaires that are still not there, we have been chasing them, so, we have written again today to say you need to get your questionnaires in by the end of the week, i understand because obviously the evidence has changed, but you need to be move quickly when you get new evidence so that is something that, yeah, iapologise new evidence so that is something that, yeah, i apologise for the language but it is something i am keen to make progress on. fair oint, keen to make progress on. fair point. what _ keen to make progress on. fair point. what do _ keen to make progress on. fair point, what do you think secretary of state for education, having responsible for schools, having used the f—word, sent out no doubt by the head a master to apologise, what about the headmaster if it was he, rishi sunak, this came out yesterday, jonathan slater, civil servant accused of halving the planned funding to fix the problem when he was the chancellor and today we read and hear and see that the national audit office boss has waded in, accusing the government of a sticking plaster approach. who is on the line? claire in haringey? good morning claire. hi the line? claire in haringey? good morning claire.— the line? claire in haringey? good morning claire.- your- morning claire. hi nicky. your daughter's _ morning claire. hi nicky. your daughter's school— morning claire. hi nicky. your daughter's school affected - morning claire. hi nicky. yourj daughter's school affected tell morning claire. hi nicky. your. daughter's school affected tell us more. , , ., ., , ., daughter's school affected tell us more. , , ., ., , ._, more. yes, my daughter goes to a school in north _ more. yes, my daughter goes to a school in north london, _ more. yes, my daughter goes to a school in north london, we - more. yes, my daughter goes to a school in north london, we have i school in north london, we have received a letter, the last day of term or thereabouts last year, last academic year saying they would need to delay and stagger the start for this year, so, it is not a huge delayjust a couple of days for her, it is more for other school years, but, you know, as your intro says it is more an indication of how schools have been allowed to get into the state of disrenair is a crisis situation for them. did state of disrenair is a crisis situation for them.- state of disrenair is a crisis situation for them. , , ., ~' ., situation for them. did you know the school was getting _ situation for them. did you know the school was getting into _ situation for them. did you know the school was getting into a _ situation for them. did you know the school was getting into a state - situation for them. did you know the school was getting into a state of. school was getting into a state of disrepair, could everyone see that, did they acknowledge it?— did they acknowledge it? yeah, i would say that, _ did they acknowledge it? yeah, i would say that, hearing - did they acknowledge it? yeah, i would say that, hearing my - did they acknowledge it? yeah, i - would say that, hearing my daughter talk about it, it was, fairly obvious, and there were some classrooms that were off bounds last term, because it wasn't safe. and generally the school is falling apart to be honest, like toilet doors don't look and those kind of things and presumably the school doesn't have money to spend on things like that, they do their best but it is a pretty shabby building. do you think there was an application for a grant to fix things? i application for a grant to fix thins? ., �* ~ ., ., �* things? i don't know. i don't, i don't have _ things? i don't know. i don't, i don't have any _ things? i don't know. i don't, i don't have any involvement. things? i don't know. i don't, i. don't have any involvement with things? i don't know. i don't, i- don't have any involvement with the school other than having a child there, so, i mean, the, this building work was the letter swerved was from the school and from haringey council which is our borough, saying they had done a borough, saying they had done a borough wide assess, of all the schools, and, to work out who needed remedial work, so our school was on the list as were some others, so they knew about it, before, you know, it made the headlines last weekend, you know, the subject of phone—ins like this. weekend, you know, the sub'ect of phone-ins like this.�* phone-ins like this. yes, there is no other phone-in _ phone-ins like this. yes, there is no other phone-in quite - phone-ins like this. yes, there is no other phone-in quite like - phone-ins like this. yes, there is no other phone-in quite like this| no other phone—in quite like this no. i no other phone-in quite like this no. ~' ., . no other phone-in quite like this no. ~ ., ., , ., no other phone-in quite like this no. ~ ., ., i. ., no other phone-in quite like this no. ~ ., ., ., ., ., no. i know what you mean, and, how wor in: no. i know what you mean, and, how worrying is — no. i know what you mean, and, how worrying is it — no. i know what you mean, and, how worrying is it from _ no. i know what you mean, and, how worrying is it from your _ no. i know what you mean, and, how worrying is it from your point - no. i know what you mean, and, how worrying is it from your point of - worrying is it from your point of view of things returning to a situation of, you know kids learning from home and just all that terrible stuff we had to go through, is that at the back, the front of of your mind? i at the back, the front of of your mind? ., at the back, the front of of your mind? ~ , . ., , , at the back, the front of of your mind? ~' , u, , , . mind? i think because they were a little ahead _ mind? i think because they were a little ahead of— mind? i think because they were a little ahead of the _ mind? i think because they were a little ahead of the game _ mind? i think because they were a little ahead of the game so - mind? i think because they were a little ahead of the game so the - little ahead of the game so the building work is i understand in progress, that i am quite confident she will go back to school next week, i would she will go back to school next week, iwould be she will go back to school next week, i would be really upset if she had to go back to home learning, if you know the situation isn't resolved. i mean, she's already been through the full pandemic at secondary school, her sister was as well. it is not good for the education or their mental health or their social skills or anything like that, it is not good for me and my husband who have another thing to worry about. husband who have another thing to worry about-— husband who have another thing to worry about. exactly. i want to play this clip to — worry about. exactly. i want to play this clip to get _ worry about. exactly. i want to play this clip to get your _ worry about. exactly. i want to play this clip to get your reaction - worry about. exactly. i want to play this clip to get your reaction to - this clip to get your reaction to out. are you ready for this? yeah. here we go. _ out. are you ready for this? yeah. here we go, here _ out. are you ready for this? yeah. here we go, here is _ out. are you ready for this? yeah. here we go, here is the _ out. are you ready for this? yeah. here we go, here is the secretary| out. are you ready for this? yeah. l here we go, here is the secretary of state _ here we go, here is the secretary of state for— here we go, here is the secretary of state for education.— state for education. going to play that cli -. state for education. going to play that clip- we _ state for education. going to play that clip. we will _ state for education. going to play that clip. we will get _ state for education. going to play that clip. we will get a _ state for education. going to play that clip. we will get a plan - state for education. going to play that clip. we will get a plan and l that clip. we will get a plan and every one _ that clip. we will get a plan and every one of— that clip. we will get a plan and every one of them _ that clip. we will get a plan and every one of them will- that clip. we will get a plan and every one of them will be - that clip. we will get a plan and j every one of them will be done. thank_ every one of them will be done. thank you _ every one of them will be done. thank you. does anyone ever say you know _ thank you. does anyone ever say you know what _ thank you. does anyone ever say you know what you over done a bleep good 'ob know what you over done a bleep good job because _ know what you over done a bleep good job because everyone has sat on their_ job because everyone has sat on their (bleep) and done nothing? no si-ns their (bleep) and done nothing? no signs of— their (bleep) and done nothing? no signs of that, no? | their (bleep) and done nothing? no signs of that, no?— signs of that, no? i mean it is pure rebecca front _ signs of that, no? i mean it is pure rebecca front from _ signs of that, no? i mean it is pure rebecca front from the _ signs of that, no? i mean it is pure rebecca front from the thick - signs of that, no? i mean it is pure rebecca front from the thick of it. what did you make of that? some people said it made her out to be a human being, she is at the front of it, she is at the brunt of it and she is doing her best and it is all going on round her, others think it was, you know, symptomatic of a government in disarray, what do you think? ~ , �* , government in disarray, what do you think? , ,, government in disarray, what do you think? , h, ,, ., ., think? well, she's stepped into a difficult position _ think? well, she's stepped into a difficult position hasn't _ think? well, she's stepped into a difficult position hasn't she - difficult position hasn't she because she hasn't been in the job that long. 11 because she hasn't been in the 'ob that lonu. " ., , because she hasn't been in the 'ob that long.— she fl because she hasn't been in the 'ob that long._ she is i because she hasn't been in the job that long._ she is part i because she hasn't been in the job that long._ she is part of| that long. 11 months she is part of a team, that long. 11 months she is part of a team. you _ that long. 11 months she is part of a team, you know, _ that long. 11 months she is part of a team, you know, it _ that long. 11 months she is part of a team, you know, it is _ that long. 11 months she is part of a team, you know, it is a - a team, you know, it is a government, she sits you know, they have cabinet meetings, this, it has been allowed to fester, they have known about it, they are saying the evidence has just changed known about it, they are saying the evidence hasjust changed but known about it, they are saying the evidence has just changed but there has been reports of classrooms crumbling years ago, so i don't know how much more serious it needs to be than that for them to focus on it. regard to other people sitting on their back sides, i don't know who she means. their back sides, i don't know who she means-— their back sides, i don't know who she means. ., ., ., , , ., she means. no, who does she mean? our viewers — she means. no, who does she mean? our viewers can _ she means. no, who does she mean? our viewers can tell _ she means. no, who does she mean? our viewers can tell us, _ she means. no, who does she mean? our viewers can tell us, who - she means. no, who does she mean? our viewers can tell us, who does - she means. no, who does she mean? our viewers can tell us, who does hel our viewers can tell us, who does he mean? don't sit on your backside get in touch and tell us.— in touch and tell us. yeah. because i mean, in touch and tell us. yeah. because i mean. they _ in touch and tell us. yeah. because i mean, they have _ in touch and tell us. yeah. because i mean, they have been _ in touch and tell us. yeah. because i mean, they have been in, - in touch and tell us. yeah. because i mean, they have been in, in - i mean, they have been in, in government for 13 years. i think one of the problems, for me, is that the government doesn't prioritise education as much as they used to, or they probably should. it is not just about funding, i think, that gillian keegan is the tenth education secretary in 13 year, now, you need consistency to do a good job, we all know that, from working, you know, if you keep chopping and changing who is in charge, yeah, thing, the ball gets dropped or different priorities come along and i think that is part of the problem, that you know, when all these reshuffles happen, the best calibre people go into the big jobs and education isn't seen as a big job so it isjust a education isn't seen as a big job so it is just a revolving door of people, and that is my analysis of it in part. people, and that is my analysis of it in art. , , it in part. this is the sophisticated - it in part. this is the l sophisticated analysis it in part. this is the - sophisticated analysis we get it in part. this is the _ sophisticated analysis we get from our listeners and viewer, it is brilliant stuff and we watt to hear everyone, we want to give everyone a voice on this, whether you have sympathy with the government, for gillian keegan or the reverse, it is all about you, concrete chaos, who is to blame? one does get the distinct feeling this is growing and growing and growing, where are we going? we are going to emma knight chief executive of the national governance association. good morning o emma. governance association. good morning 0 emma. ,., ., governance association. good morning 0 emma. ., governance association. good morning o emma-_ where - governance association. good morning 0 emma._ where is - governance association. good morning| 0 emma._ where is your 0 emma. good morning. where is your finer 0 emma. good morning. where is your finger pointing? _ 0 emma. good morning. where is your finger pointing? well, _ 0 emma. good morning. where is your finger pointing? well, really _ 0 emma. good morning. where is your finger pointing? well, really what - finger pointing? well, really what we are trying _ finger pointing? well, really what we are trying to — finger pointing? well, really what we are trying to do _ finger pointing? well, really what we are trying to do is _ finger pointing? well, really what we are trying to do is get - finger pointing? well, really what we are trying to do is get to - finger pointing? well, really what we are trying to do is get to the i we are trying to do is get to the bottom of what is happening and make sure that the situation can be remedied the as soon as possible for all those pupils and parents as you have been talking to, it is a, an issue that has been around as long as this raac has been in buildings for sort of 30 and more years. years. so perhaps there should have been more urgency in dealing with this in a timely fashion, but i think the other thing it is pointing to, isjust picking up on the comments being made, is that generally, school buildings haven't been very high up the list, that the government's been interested in, and we have had really good feedback from our governors and academy trustees, in a survey we are about to publish this week, which tells us that four out of ten of them say that four out of ten of them say that their buildings are not in good enough condition, so that is not just about raac, it is just generally, that buildings are not always fillet for purpose any more and these really extreme cases, may not be safe either. you make a very good point, that politicians think about how it is going to look, i suppose is it cynical, all politicians they have got, they have got one eye on the mirror of history and another one on how they arejudged mirror of history and another one on how they are judged in the present, and you know, most of them are great public servants trying to do the right thing but they are human and they are thinking about what gives them the brownie point, do they get them the brownie point, do they get them from putting money into the nhs orfor them from putting money into the nhs or for putting that money into fixing walls, that is the point isn't it? , ., isn't it? exactly, and unfortunately, - isn't it? exactly, and - unfortunately, education more generally hasn't had the profile that we would have liked to see it have, and you know, of course, governors and trustees are going to want, you know, more money to make sure their buildings are absolutely safe, and fit for purpose, and of course, notjust that, but ensure they can hire the teachers they need and others of support staff, you might be expecting us to make that case, but we have actually had over the last couple of days, dfe former insiders also confirming that the treasury didn't actually fund the amount that the department for edges case said was needed to keep buildings in a good state and that is an absolute false economy isn't it, that you don't want to do it, in order to prevent these sort of things increasing over time. yeah, aet things increasing over time. yeah, net in things increasing over time. yeah, get in touch- _ things increasing over time. yeah, get in touch. concrete _ things increasing over time. yeah, get in touch. concrete chaos - things increasing over time. yeah, get in touch. concrete chaos who i things increasing over time. yeah, i get in touch. concrete chaos who do you blame? it is interesting because you blame? it is interesting because you talk aboutjonathan slater, the civil servant, former civil servant yesterday who was on radio 4's today programme saying that rishi sunak cut the funding in half, much more was needed, they were going to settle for 100 schools and he said it would have to be 50 and rishi sunak said, a i puta record it would have to be 50 and rishi sunak said, a i put a record amount of money into education, others are saying it in real terms but gareth davies, the head of the national audit office is saying that the government has ended up, what you are saying basically, the government has ended up wasting money on emergency repair us because it has neglected the unnaxi job of keeping buildings in usualable condition, he has said pupils and parents are paying the price for underinvestment in school buildings despite a string of warn, regarding the safety of autoclayed aerated concrete. he writes in the thyme, in that article in tame, that is what you are saying? saying?— in tame, that is what you are saying? saying? in tame, that is what you are sainam??sa.,,, , , saying? saying? absolutely, they did a aood saying? saying? absolutely, they did a good report — saying? saying? absolutely, they did a good report they — saying? saying? absolutely, they did a good report they published - saying? saying? absolutely, they didj a good report they published towards the end of last time and i commend people who want to delve into this issue about schools, buildings and the investment that has or hasn't been made because the nao are absolutely evidence based and take great care in what they publish, so i think their conclusions, lay that out completely, and utterly clearly, that there has not been enough investment into school buildings, over the last, the report was five or six years. we over the last, the report was five or six years— or six years. we have ros in bingley. _ or six years. we have ros in bingley, claire _ or six years. we have ros in bingley, claire is _ or six years. we have ros in bingley, claire is still - or six years. we have ros in bingley, claire is still with i or six years. we have ros in | bingley, claire is still with us or six years. we have ros in i bingley, claire is still with us in haringey, for herferox, we will go to chair of governors, parent of a girl at a to chair of governors, parent of a girl ata primary to chair of governors, parent of a girl at a primary school in essex, good morning. girl at a primary school in essex, good morning-— girl at a primary school in essex, good morning._ hi. i good morning. morning. hi. what do you _ good morning. morning. hi. what do you make - good morning. morning. hi. what do you make of - good morning. morning. hi. what do you make of it? it. good morning. morning. hi. | what do you make of it? it is good morning. morning. hi. i what do you make of it? it is a bit of a shamble. _ what do you make of it? it is a bit of a shamble, schools _ what do you make of it? it is a bit of a shamble, schools are - what do you make of it? it is a bit of a shamble, schools are doing i what do you make of it? it is a bit i of a shamble, schools are doing the best they can to deal with a difficult situation, teachers have been outstanding, the heads have had pressure on them, part of the problem is it started just as term is about to start so for my school, they did have two surveys done by they did have two surveys done by the gfe on the buildings last term, both came back with you have raac but it is ok, you can carry on, last thursday, they get told actually you do need another survey, we are not sure if it is ok, but to get hold of someone to do the survey is next to impossible. flan someone to do the survey is next to impossible-— impossible. can i stop you there. just, impossible. can i stop you there. just. point _ impossible. can i stop you there. just. point at _ impossible. can i stop you there. just. point at a — impossible. can i stop you there. just, point at a time. _ impossible. can i stop you there. just, point at a time. this - impossible. can i stop you there. just, point at a time. this is i impossible. can i stop you there. just, point at a time. this is an i just, point at a time. this is an interesting one, first of all, i think you said a couple of years ago, they said you have got it but it is fine. . , ago, they said you have got it but it is fine. ., , ., ., ago, they said you have got it but it is fine. .,, ., ., _, , it is fine. last term not a couple of ears it is fine. last term not a couple of years ago- — it is fine. last term not a couple of years ago- a _ it is fine. last term not a couple of years ago. a couple - it is fine. last term not a couple of years ago. a couple of- it is fine. last term not a couple | of years ago. a couple of months ago. i of years ago. a couple of months aro. ~' ., of years ago. a couple of months aro. ~ ., ., , of years ago. a couple of months aro. ~ ., ., , ago. i know there was a couple involve rod. — ago. i know there was a couple involve rod, a _ ago. i know there was a couple involve rod, a couple _ ago. i know there was a couple involve rod, a couple of - ago. i know there was a couple| involve rod, a couple of month, sorry about that. you have got it, it is fine, now they are saying it is not fine, how can that change, why that that changed? we don't know, why that that changed? we don't know. no-one — why that that changed? we don't know, no-one in _ why that that changed? we don't know, no-one in a _ why that that changed? we don't know, no-one in a school- why that that changed? we don't know, no-one in a school can i why that that changed? we don't know, no-one in a school can do | why that that changed? we don't. know, no-one in a school can do a know, no—one in a school can do a survey on their buildings for raac, if there is window issues we can see them, dealwith if there is window issues we can see them, deal with them, if there is window issues we can see them, dealwith them, if if there is window issues we can see them, deal with them, if it is in them, deal with them, if it is in the roof or walls we don't know that, it has to be somebody coming in to check the buildings to tells through is a problem or not. it is not something that anyone who is in the building is going to know unless there is a collapse, so, the fact that dfe have said you need another survey but here is a list of people, you need to sort out, it is ridiculous, schools should be there to educate the children and it is notjust to educate the children and it is not just the education to educate the children and it is notjust the education that is suffering is, it is their mental health suffering is with not knowing if they are going back to school or they have to go somewhere else which isn't necessarily designed for classes, and that is really difficult, for children to deal with, let alone, forget parents for a minute, it is the impacts on the child and the teachers and they are doing their utmost to keep that going in difficult circumstances. did you apply for funding? obviously, anything that can be applied for will be applied for, and the dfe are saying all temporary measure also be paid for by the dfe but not necessarily up front.- but not necessarily up front. yeah. in but not necessarily up front. yeah. in long-term _ but not necessarily up front. yeah. in long-term we _ but not necessarily up front. yeah. in long-term we don't _ but not necessarily up front. yeah. in long-term we don't know. i but not necessarily up front. yeah. in long-term we don't know. no. i but not necessarily up front. yeah. i in long-term we don't know. no. who does? ros. — in long-term we don't know. no. who does? ros. do — in long-term we don't know. no. who does? ros, do you _ in long-term we don't know. no. who does? ros, do you know— in long-term we don't know. no. who does? ros, do you know what, - in long-term we don't know. no. who does? ros, do you know what, what i in long-term we don't know. no. who | does? ros, do you know what, what is going on, what do you want to say? i would like to ask one question, right, _ would like to ask one question, right, in— would like to ask one question, right, in the first place, why would anyhody _ right, in the first place, why would anybody build a hospital, school or anybody build a hospital, school or a very— anybody build a hospital, school or a very important building, using materiat— a very important building, using material which i believe was untested, and probably had a lifetime — untested, and probably had a lifetime guarantee of about 30 years? — lifetime guarantee of about 30 years? as in our hospital which is airedale — years? as in our hospital which is airedale hospital, i believe there are lots— airedale hospital, i believe there are lots of— airedale hospital, i believe there are lots of other buildings and in bradford. — are lots of other buildings and in bradford, most of the centre of bradford — bradford, most of the centre of bradford was razed to ground to billy daviesings, i don't know if billy daviesings, idon't know if they— billy daviesings, i don't know if they have — billy daviesings, i don't know if they have the concrete but some of they have the concrete but some of the victorian buildings are still going — the victorian buildings are still going strong and ijust do not understand why this happened when it was untested, there was no proper guarantee — was untested, there was no proper guarantee i— was untested, there was no proper guarantee i believe, ijust don't understand anybody in their right minds _ understand anybody in their right minds considering using it for a very— minds considering using it for a very important public building, so that is— very important public building, so that is the — very important public building, so that is the point i would like to make. — that is the point i would like to make. i— that is the point i would like to make, i would like to find out who was in _ make, i would like to find out who was in charge of considering, all that information. | was in charge of considering, all that information.— was in charge of considering, all that information. i am not an expert in reinforced — that information. i am not an expert in reinforced autoclaveed _ that information. i am not an expert in reinforced autoclaveed aerated i in reinforced autoclaveed aerated concrete ros. ros.— in reinforced autoclaveed aerated i concrete ros. ros._ it concrete ros. ros. neither am i! it was good. — concrete ros. ros. neither am i! it was good. it— concrete ros. ros. neither am i! it was good, it worked _ concrete ros. ros. neither am i! it was good, it worked well, - concrete ros. ros. neither am i! it was good, it worked well, it - concrete ros. ros. neither am i! it was good, it worked well, it was i was good, it worked well, it was efficient and it was safe and sound for 30 years, but 30 years. emir; efficient and it was safe and sound for 30 years, but 30 years. only 30 ears. it for 30 years, but 30 years. only 30 years- it is — for 30 years, but 30 years. only 30 years- it is a _ for 30 years, but 30 years. only 30 years. it is a long _ for 30 years, but 30 years. only 30 years. it is a long time _ for 30 years, but 30 years. only 30 years. it is a long time in _ for 30 years, but 30 years. only 30 years. it is a long time in politic, i years. it is a long time in politic, that is the _ years. it is a long time in politic, that is the thing. _ years. it is a long time in politic, that is the thing. but _ years. it is a long time in politic, that is the thing. but we - years. it is a long time in politic, that is the thing. but we have i that is the thing. but we have airedale hospital _ that is the thing. but we have airedale hospital virtually i airedale hospital virtually collapsing, i know that, so, i don't know _ collapsing, i know that, so, i don't know... ~ ., ., ., collapsing, i know that, so, i don't know... ., ., ., ., , know... what do you mean? virtually colla sin , know. .. what do you mean? virtually collapsing. tell— know... what do you mean? virtually collapsing, tell me _ know... what do you mean? virtually collapsing, tell me more? _ know... what do you mean? virtually collapsing, tell me more? yeah. iti collapsing, tell me more? yeah. it is. it is. collapsing, tell me more? yeah. it is- it is- i— collapsing, tell me more? yeah. it is. it is. i have— collapsing, tell me more? yeah. it is. it is. i have used _ collapsing, tell me more? yeah. it is. it is. i have used to _ collapsing, tell me more? yeah. it is. it is. i have used to be - collapsing, tell me more? yeah. it is. it is. i have used to be a i is. it is. i have used to be a governor— is. it is. i have used to be a governor there, and i know for a few years— governor there, and i know for a few years now— governor there, and i know for a few years now they have had to shore up some _ years now they have had to shore up some of— years now they have had to shore up some of the — years now they have had to shore up some of the ceilings, they have been looking _ some of the ceilings, they have been looking for— some of the ceilings, they have been looking for crack, leak, anything, and they— looking for crack, leak, anything, and they are having to work round this mess — and they are having to work round this mess they have got in, and it was built— this mess they have got in, and it was built any think the late 60s, it was built any think the late 60s, it was airedale hospital, it to a brilliant _ was airedale hospital, it to a brilliant hospital but they are having — brilliant hospital but they are having all the staff are having to work _ having all the staff are having to work round this concrete, and there are parts— work round this concrete, and there are parts of— work round this concrete, and there are parts of the building which are all propped up all over the place, so i all propped up all over the place, so i can't — all propped up all over the place, so i can't understand why you would build _ so i can't understand why you would build a _ so i can't understand why you would build a hospital using this stuff that hasn't been tried and tested properly — that hasn't been tried and tested properly. that was the point i would like to _ properly. that was the point i would like to make, and i don't know whether— like to make, and i don't know whether somebody got a backhander somewhere, i am whether somebody got a backhander somewhere, lam not whether somebody got a backhander somewhere, i am not saying that. oh, hold on. somewhere, i am not saying that. oh, hold on- there — somewhere, i am not saying that. oi, hold on. there was a somewhere, i am not saying that. oi hold on. there was a lot somewhere, i am not saying that. (iii hold on. there was a lot that somewhere, i am not saying that. (ii hold on. there was a lot that going none the 60, there you go. you have thrown that one in. there was a lot of that going on in the 60, a lot of brown envelope stuff, i don't know there has been any suggestion that necessarily has been the case generally, there might have been spio is fibbings but it was seen as efficient material at the time, emma, neitherare efficient material at the time, emma, neither are you an expert in aerated concrete, but i will ask hina this, i suppose some people might think there was a lack of foresight? might think there was a lack of foresiuht? , ., foresight? yes, i mean, the thing was, a foresight? yes, i mean, the thing was. a few _ foresight? yes, i mean, the thing was. a few years _ foresight? yes, i mean, the thing was, a few years ago _ foresight? yes, i mean, the thing was, a few years ago there i foresight? yes, i mean, the thing was, a few years ago there was i foresight? yes, i mean, the thing. was, a few years ago there was the building schools for the future programme, starting to rebuild the schools that needed it over time and that programme was meant to go on and there were different groups at different times to be done and that got cut, and that i believe was cut when rishi sunak was chancellor. so, that has made a big issue because some of those schools would have had buildings that are now not useable that would actual will had the programme carried on been replaced. that is key, so there was some foresight, at some point this programme should be put in place, but it was taken away and it feels like the school buildings are not a priority at all but the problem is so much important stuff take place in those buildings, and that is really key to understand, that those children, the future of this country, and they need that good education on a consistent level. covid was unavoidable. however, this seems like it should have been avoidable because we knew it was 30 years when it was first put in. but it is a long time in politics as you say. it is a long time in politics as you sa . , ~ .. it is a long time in politics as you sa ., ~ ., it is a long time in politics as you sa. ~ ., , say. jim in south africaed for is with us. say. jim in south africaed for is with us- you — say. jim in south africaed for is with us. you can _ say. jim in south africaed for is with us. you can join _ say. jim in south africaed for is with us. you canjoin us. i say. jim in south africaed for is with us. you canjoin us. we i say. jim in south africaed for is| with us. you canjoin us. we are say. jim in south africaed for is i with us. you canjoin us. we are in a... with us. you can 'oin us. we are in a... . . with us. you can 'oin us. we are in a... ., . ., y ., with us. you can 'oin us. we are in a... ., . ., ., a... can i inter'ect, now you are havin: a... can i inter'ect, now you are having to — a... can i inter'ect, now you are having to fork i a... can i interject, now you are having to fork out _ a... can i interject, now you are having to fork out all _ a... can i interject, now you are having to fork out all this i a... can i interject, now you are i having to fork out all this money, it wassen — having to fork out all this money, it wassen really a cheap option was it? , , , , it wassen really a cheap option was it? y , , , ., it wassen really a cheap option was it? , , , , ., ., ., it wassen really a cheap option was it? y, ,, ., ., ., it? very sensible. you are far too sensible! goodness _ it? very sensible. you are far too sensible! goodness me. - it? very sensible. you are far too sensible! goodness me. what i it? very sensible. you are far too sensible! goodness me. what is| it? very sensible. you are far too i sensible! goodness me. what is going on. , ., ., sensible! goodness me. what is going on. ., , ., , on. there you go. i shall finish there. on. there you go. i shall finish there- you _ on. there you go. i shall finish there. you don't _ on. there you go. i shall finish there. you don't have - on. there you go. i shall finish there. you don't have to. i on. there you go. i shall finish i there. you don't have to. sense and sensibility- — there. you don't have to. sense and sensibility- it _ there. you don't have to. sense and sensibility. it is — there. you don't have to. sense and sensibility. it is an _ there. you don't have to. sense and sensibility. it is an extremely i sensibility. it is an extremely expensive — sensibility. it is an extremely expensive option _ sensibility. it is an extremely expensive option and - sensibility. it is an extremely expensive option and we i sensibility. it is an extremely expensive option and we are | sensibility. it is an extremely i expensive option and we are having to pay— expensive option and we are having to pay for— expensive option and we are having to pay for this, and... you expensive option and we are having to pay for this, and. . ._ to pay for this, and... you have a lot of common-sense. _ to pay for this, and... you have a i lot of common-sense. common-sense. lot of common—sense. common—sense. you have a lot of common—sense in yorkshire and this is a classic case of good money after bad.- of good money after bad. exactly, es. mm. of good money after bad. exactly, yes. mm. stand— of good money after bad. exactly, yes. mm. stand to _ of good money after bad. exactly, yes. mm. stand to reason, - of good money after bad. exactly, yes. mm. stand to reason, manyl of good money after bad. exactly, i yes. mm. stand to reason, many of the viewers — yes. mm. stand to reason, many of the viewers and _ yes. mm. stand to reason, many of the viewers and listeners _ yes. mm. stand to reason, many of the viewers and listeners will - yes. mm. stand to reason, many of the viewers and listeners will be - the viewers and listeners will be saying, jim? stafford former ceo of the academy trust, what are you saying? the academy trust, what are you sa in. ? , ., ., the academy trust, what are you sa inc? ., ., ., ~ saying? good morning. good to talk to ou,i saying? good morning. good to talk to you. i will — saying? good morning. good to talk to you, i will start _ saying? good morning. good to talk to you, i will start by _ saying? good morning. good to talk to you, i will start by saying - saying? good morning. good to talk to you, i will start by saying it - saying? good morning. good to talk to you, i will start by saying it is - to you, i will start by saying it is not my fault, because i don't know where the blame game is going to stop here, and you sense an anger in my voice and it is fact they are trying to off load the blame from government, it isjust astonishing,er education secretary setting a great example to children, yesterday, was what you referred to on the bbc as salty language, outrageous. my main point, we have had package after panama paper on the bbc and other channels, where the bbc and other channels, where the government are saying it is not our fault it the civil servant, head teachers not returning form, it is this, it is that, the point that has just been made about the building schools for future programme just been made about the building schools forfuture programme i just been made about the building schools for future programme i was still in work when that was going on, that was a really good programme, strategically thought through, that was going to follow through, that was going to follow through, the school i was managing at the time i had a budget, and i turned up from a school i wasn't proud of into a school that was fit for purpose for the kids that i served, so, those days have gone, the budgets have been cut, but one of the points i wanted to make is, we have had talk about academy trusts, the education funding agency is the overall body that manages and controls the working of the academy trusts are and they are an agency that are part of the dfe, so, it all comes back to the fact it is government. i am going to shut up now. ~ , , ., ., now. well, shut up for a minute. i am auoin now. well, shut up for a minute. i am going to _ now. well, shut up for a minute. i am going to play _ now. well, shut up for a minute. i am going to play you _ now. well, shut up for a minute. i am going to play you this - now. well, shut up for a minute. i am going to play you this again i now. well, shut up for a minute. i l am going to play you this again and i want you to tell me your reaction, and i don't want to trigger you but i want to hear your reaction when you hear it again. here is the secretary of state for education. indie secretary of state for education. we will get a plan and every single one will get a plan and every single one will be _ will get a plan and every single one will be done. thank you. does anyone ever say— will be done. thank you. does anyone ever say you _ will be done. thank you. does anyone ever say you know what you've done a (bleep) _ ever say you know what you've done a (bleep) goodjob ever say you know what you've done a (bleep) good job because everyone else has_ (bleep) good job because everyone else has sat on their (bleep) and done _ else has sat on their (bleep) and done nothing? no signs of that. salty. _ done nothing? no signs of that. salty, when you heard it what did you thinkjim?” salty, when you heard it what did you thinkjim?— salty, when you heard it what did you thinkjim? i doesn't believe it. the standards _ you thinkjim? i doesn't believe it. the standards are _ you thinkjim? i doesn't believe it. the standards are so _ you thinkjim? i doesn't believe it. the standards are so different - the standards are so different aren't they, if i as a former head teacher was saying that in any public forum i would be disciplined, probably gross misconduct, so, the fact that she can get away with saying that, and then just put a new dress on and come and apologise is typical of what happens in government at the minute but it is not acceptable, is it, it really is not acceptable, is it, it really is not acceptable. and, she's the tenth education secretary that we have had in this administration, no wonder education is going down the tubes. and it is the way they spin things nicky, i listened to the prime minister the other day, he was saying exactly what the civil servant who had been on radio 4 servant who had been on radio a previously had said, but he couched it in a more positive language, and do they think we are all stupid? he said 50 schools in ten years, that is half of what the civil service, in fact it is quarter of what the civil service were recommending but gets away with saying aren't i great? i did that in my first spending review. it makes you really, really angry that they are getting away with spinning stuff the way they are spinning it. she ointed way they are spinning it. she pointed at — way they are spinning it. she pointed at councils. she said gillian keegan that councils should take their share of responsibility here, is that not a fair point? h0. here, is that not a fair point? no, obviously she's _ here, is that not a fair point? mfr, obviously she's factually correct, council should take their fair share but their budget has been absolutely decimated over the last ten year, i will say again, you know, 20, think it was 2000, i had a significant budget and myself and my governors were responsible for keeping the estate in good order. i had the money to do that and i think we achieved it and i had support from the local authority to repair the roof and to do things, ijust don't think they have the money these days, think people don't recognise how much council budgets have been slashed. and i go, sorry go on. h0. slashed. and i go, sorry go on. no, ou co slashed. and i go, sorry go on. no, you go on- — slashed. and i go, sorry go on. no, you go on- one _ slashed. and i go, sorry go on. no, you go on- one of— slashed. and i go, sorry go on. no, you go on. one of the _ slashed. and i go, sorry go on. no, you go on. one of the things - slashed. and i go, sorry go on. no, you go on. one of the things that l you go on. one of the things that really annoys _ you go on. one of the things that really annoys me, _ you go on. one of the things that really annoys me, you _ you go on. one of the things that really annoys me, you get - you go on. one of the things that really annoys me, you get them. really annoys me, you get them saying time and time again about the note that was left, we have spent all the money. it was a tradition was went it that the outgoing chancellor left a bit of a light—hearted note for the incoming chancellor, they pub sized that and made political capital on but i think the money was well spent, there was a world crash in 2009, and clearly finance was going to be an issue, but all i can say, as a head teacheri issue, but all i can say, as a head teacher i was proud of the building that i had in those days, i bet head teachers these days are not like that. hedley, good morning. iwill not play you the clip again, because i know... ., �* , play you the clip again, because i know... ., �* i, , know... no, i'm very sensitive. sensitive _ know... no, i'm very sensitive. sensitive ears, _ know... no, i'm very sensitive. sensitive ears, i _ know... no, i'm very sensitive. sensitive ears, i know. - know... no, i'm very sensitive. sensitive ears, i know. what i know... no, i'm very sensitive. | sensitive ears, i know. what do know... no, i'm very sensitive. - sensitive ears, i know. what do you make of it and the whole thing, and who is to blame?— make of it and the whole thing, and who is to blame? well, i would echo what are the — who is to blame? well, i would echo what are the people _ who is to blame? well, i would echo what are the people have _ who is to blame? well, i would echo what are the people have said - who is to blame? well, i would echo what are the people have said about| what are the people have said about the coalition killing off the school building programme. it seems to me that by not investing in regular maintenance over the last 10—13 years, what we are faced with now is a far bigger bill to do far more extensive works to schools. it seems to me that, how do the maintenance been done, then probably the 13 year raac life, we would be talking 40, 50, 100 years raac life, we would be talking 40, 50,100 years or raac life, we would be talking 40, 50, 100 years or whatever. the other thing that really aches me is the money that we are supposed to save, spending on these boundary projects like —— vanity projects like hs2 spending on these boundary projects like —— vanity projects like h52 and aircraft carriers that were obsolete before they left the drawing board, they seemed to think that was a far better way of spending the money, on things the vast majority of us will never use or get to see used. brilliant points from brilliantly informed listeners, as ever. concrete chaos, who do you blame? whatever you think, you can come on and make it, but there's not a lot of sympathy for the government at the moment coming from viewers and listeners. and there's not a lot of sympathy for the government coming from what is sometimes called the tory press. there is a bit of falling off, a sensing that the edifice is cracking. a lot of disillusionment from people who were hitherto vocal supporters of this government. let's see what people are saying on the texts. how long have winchester college, eton and harrow been standing? i have never heard of anything as daft as being pro—conservative, but i question how ethical it is to publish a comment, when the interviewee thinks that it is over. it is a long—standing journalistic tradition to keep the microphone going, remember sky tv quoting what gordon brown said about what he called a dreadful woman. how come they cancelled the school building programme, promise a building programme, promise a building scheme that never arrived, and waste billions on vanity projects to cut 15 minutes from the trip from london to outside manchester. another one, ithink trip from london to outside manchester. another one, i think on the gillian keegan thing, i think it shows that she is human, but it is symptomatic of a government in disarray. it is 9.33. here is the news from bethan. the head of the spending watchdog, the national audit office, says pupils and parents are paying the price for �*under—investiment�* in school buildings — as more than 100 schools in england haven't fully re—ropened over weak concrete fears. writing in the times gareth davies has accused the government of a "sticking plaster approach". schools minister nick gibb says the government spends 1.8 billion a year on maintence and improvements. a bbc investigation has found in the last year three water companies in england illegally discharged sewage hundreds of times on days when it wasn't raining. while the release of sewage is legal when it's wet the practice is banned on dry days as it can cause environmental harm. the government is changing planning laws to make it easier to build onshore windfarms in england. ministers had been facing a backbench rebellion on the issue. labour has already committed to similar proposals. conservationists say the number of golden eagles in southern scotland is at its highest in 300—years. nearly 50 of the birds are now in the area around dumfries and galloway and the scottish borders. the former liverpool captain jordan henderson says his move to the saudi arabian pro league was never about making more money. hejoined al—ettifaq on a reported £700,000 a week, but speaking to the athletic he's played down that number. he says he wanted to feel valued, and thatjurgen klopp had told him he wouldn't be playing as much. henderson also says he understands criticism of his move from lgbtq+ groups, given his previous support compared with saudi arabia's politics. brazil have dropped the manchester united winger antony following allegations of abuse by his former girlfriend. greater manchester police said it is "aware of the allegations made and enquiries remain ongoing." antony denies the claims, while united have not commented. jack draper was the last british player to be knocked out of the us open last night. he was beaten by the 8th seed andrey rublev in four sets. in the late match, alex zverev beat jannik sinner over five sets, not finishing until 1:39am. and world aquatics say that swimmers and divers from russia and belarus can now return to international competition as neutrals. but it'll only be in individual events and they must show they do not support the war in ukraine. asi as i said, gillian keegan, the secretary of state for education, previously a caller described it, a word used by the broadcasting corporation, salty language. what she didn't apologise for was her department's west, she expressed frustration with councils, as mentioned. saying they had not acted sooner. on schools that are yet to respond to questions about raac. she said she had taken a deliberately cautious approach, the information have changed. telling schools to close buildings containing raac, even though it was a politically... she was doing that, telling them to close buildings because of raac. even though it was politically difficult. in a nutshell, that was her response. a big response to this. it's such an important issue. and where does it extend to? court buildings, gp surgeries, hospitals? we had a mention of a hospital earlier on, i think it was from roles in bingley, correct me if i am wrong. we've got mark in camberley, and david, chief executive of a major supplier of portable classrooms. phone ringing off the hook, no doubt. and i wanted to get the recruitment editor, the senior content editor from the times educational is supplement. i want to get your reaction to the fast—moving story, did they call it. it story, did they call it. it certainly is. for something that seems to have taken months and months to come to a head, we've now had a lot of progress in a very short amount of time. perhaps indicating that if we had been this excited about it before, we would not find ourselves in the mess that we do today. not find ourselves in the mess that we do today-— not find ourselves in the mess that we dotoda . ~ ., ., ., we do today. what do you make of the secretary of — we do today. what do you make of the secretary of state _ we do today. what do you make of the secretary of state for _ we do today. what do you make of the secretary of state for education's - secretary of state for education's comments? it illustrates a frustration, because it is a complex issue. i suppose it is the government's responsibility to face up government's responsibility to face up to it, if not fess up to it? it up to it, if not fess up to it? it isa up to it, if not fess up to it? it is a complex issue. i have spoken about comments with school leaders that she had yesterday, the overwhelming sentiment seems to be, exactly who does she think has been sitting around doing nothing? she talks about councils not returning surveys, but that is a different picture from what we've heard from school leaders, saying they are the ones chasing the department for education. in the magazine that i write for, school leaders have said that their surveys have been lost by the department for education. they were told to close their schools, the schools have said, we have done our survey, the schools have said, we have done oursurvey, here the schools have said, we have done our survey, here is the paperwork, then they are allowed to open. survey is being done, and then the surveys have been insufficient and have not covered the corridors, for example, so they have had to be redone at a cost to the school, they have had to organise that. it is painting a picture of how we are the ones who have done everything, the schools are lagging behind, and that does not really ring true for the school leaders i am speaking to. do you have a modicum of sympathy for her? this is all going on around her, she is doing her level best. as you acknowledge, it's a complex issue. and she is no doubt working hard to fix the problem, being advised by civil servants, following that advice, and she showed her human side. any sympathy? l that advice, and she showed her human side. any sympathy? i think ou can human side. any sympathy? i think you can turn _ human side. any sympathy? i think you can turn a _ human side. any sympathy? i think you can turn a question _ human side. any sympathy? i think you can turn a question on - human side. any sympathy? i think you can turn a question on itself. . you can turn a question on itself. does she have any sympathy for the school leaders who are feeling frustrated? the questions being put to her byjournalists, being held to account, that is part of holding the position that she does. we need to say... it position that she does. we need to sa , ., , it position that she does. we need to say---_ it is— position that she does. we need to say- - -_ it is part - position that she does. we need to say. . ._ it is part of - say... it is her 'ob. it is part of the job. _ say... it is her 'ob. it is part of thejob. noes_ say... it is herjob. it is part of the job. does she _ say... it is herjob. it is part of the job. does she have - say... it is herjob. it is part of. the job. does she have sympathy say... it is herjob. it is part of- the job. does she have sympathy for the school leaders how to tell parents, i'm really sorry, your children can't start school, they can't return to the classroom having to make really difficult decisions about which year groups to prioritise in all of this. you know, the simply has to go to the children who are missing out on education. and the school frustration at having to incur the costs, the lack of forward planning, we knew about this years ago. this could have been addressed if the school rebuilding programme have been properly funded, and was running to time. it is not running to time. schools need to be repaired and it's the children and families that are really paying the cost for this. i think that is where the simply has to go.— cost for this. i think that is where the simply has to go. something that uuite a lot the simply has to go. something that quite a lot of— the simply has to go. something that quite a lot of our— the simply has to go. something that quite a lot of our viewers _ the simply has to go. something that quite a lot of our viewers and - quite a lot of our viewers and listeners are saying, do get in touch and tell us what you think about this, a fair amount of people are saying, this basic issue, and i think it is legitimate to ask this, because you are from tes, formerly known as the times educational supplement, of state for state for education with responsibility for schools, they should not be using the f—word in public. what you think about that? {line the f-word in public. what you think about that? ., ., , the f-word in public. what you think about that?— about that? one of many stories we have had recently, _ about that? one of many stories we have had recently, with _ about that? one of many stories we have had recently, with ministers i have had recently, with ministers using plan which which is not becoming of their position in office. when you hold the post you do, we talk about standards in schools, behaviour in schools, jars against the expectations we hold not just for children, but for their families, and everybody working in education. it's a real contrast, what we expect of others, and then the person leading education, the land which they choose to use when they are talking about the situation they are talking about the situation they find themselves in. it might be an off—the—cuff remark, but it is something we would not accept from school leaders, children parents. in school leaders, children parents. in wales, people are accusing mark drakeford of being slow off the mark, it is happening in scotland. nairn is in scotland. in mark, it is happening in scotland. nairn is in scotland.— nairn is in scotland. in scotland, we have an _ nairn is in scotland. in scotland, we have an academy _ nairn is in scotland. in scotland, we have an academy where - nairn is in scotland. in scotland, we have an academy where the l nairn is in scotland. in scotland, i we have an academy where the pe department has this concrete. we have humza yousaf on telly saying that it have humza yousaf on telly saying thatitis have humza yousaf on telly saying that it is not helpful to question and raise concerns. i think people are talking about gillian keegan expressing herfrustrations, the tories in westminster, but humza yousaf is just as bad. there's tories in westminster, but humza yousaf isjust as bad. there's been years of underinvestment and cuts to local authorities. and our academy was due to be replaced, but the snp had a lack of investment and any kind of plan, so that was delayed. so the department in a school that services 800 or 900 pupils, it has had to close. services 800 or 900 pupils, it has had to close-— services 800 or 900 pupils, it has| had to close._ well, had to close. ended a close? well, onl this had to close. ended a close? well, only this week. _ had to close. ended a close? well, only this week. it _ had to close. ended a close? well, only this week. it was _ had to close. ended a close? well, only this week. it was only - only this week. it was only discovered very recently, just as schools were going back. the survey found it was a problem, it was in the press and parents were rightly asking why it wasn't discovered sooner, and why it wasn't discovered to be unsafe sooner. there is real concern in scotland at humza yousaf seems to be dismissing the concerns, and letting the fire rain on rishi sunak, people have said today about the budgets, at westminster. but education has been devolved in scotland since 1999. the blame lies squarely with humza yousaf in scotland. and they don't seem to want any accountability. investigations are under way, and he says given the size of the estate, which includes court buildings, hospitals, gp surgeries, having to look at everything, every building that contains this kind of concrete, he says investigations will take some time. he would say that he is absolutely on it. you would say otherwise, as we are hearing. l otherwise, as we are hearing. i would think that this has been bubbling under the surface for months now. people have been talking about raac for a while. i don't understand why the surveys are only taking place now. it seems to be way off the mark. i think most people would agree humza yousaf is generally late off the mark with most things. generally late off the mark with most things-— most things. well, that is your olitical most things. well, that is your political position, _ most things. well, that is your political position, and - most things. well, that is your political position, and we - most things. well, that is your political position, and we are l political position, and we are hearing a lot of political positions this morning. 35 schools have been identified in scotland thus far. there is a point there, that it's not great in wales, not great in scotland, why are we particularly blaming the nasty old tories? i5 blaming the nasty old tories? is definitely a problem that we don't know_ definitely a problem that we don't know the — definitely a problem that we don't know the scale of yet. the conversations have been revolving around _ conversations have been revolving around the — conversations have been revolving around the conservative government because _ around the conservative government hecause of— around the conservative government because of the knowledge we have got about the _ because of the knowledge we have got about the spending review. we know back in_ about the spending review. we know back in 2020 when the department for education _ back in 2020 when the department for education first went to the treasury and said. _ education first went to the treasury and said, look, we need to rebuild the schools. — and said, look, we need to rebuild the schools, notjust because of raac_ the schools, notjust because of raac but — the schools, notjust because of raac but for other reasons as well, they identified the 500 most troubling schools and they asked for 7 billion, _ troubling schools and they asked for 7 billion, so — troubling schools and they asked for 7 billion, so we can do that as a minimum — 7 billion, so we can do that as a minimum of— 7 billion, so we can do that as a minimum of five, they were given three _ minimum of five, they were given three we — minimum of five, they were given three. we can see where the problems in england _ three. we can see where the problems in england have started. we can see where _ in england have started. we can see where they— in england have started. we can see where they were starting to under fund the _ where they were starting to under fund the building schools programme. we can— fund the building schools programme. we can also— fund the building schools programme. we can also keep track of how many schools _ we can also keep track of how many schools have been assessed under the existing _ schools have been assessed under the existing conservative plan. there were _ existing conservative plan. there were three — existing conservative plan. there were three years into the plan, and they were _ were three years into the plan, and they were meant to have 83 project under— they were meant to have 83 project underway. — they were meant to have 83 project under way, they only have 24. there were _ under way, they only have 24. there were meant— under way, they only have 24. there were meant to have four project completed, they only have one. we can look— completed, they only have one. we can look and say that you knew about the problem, you have a plan about the problem, you have a plan about the problem, you have a plan about the problem, what are you going to do about— the problem, what are you going to do about it? and the problem that we are having _ do about it? and the problem that we are having about the survey is not being _ are having about the survey is not being returned, things changing from bein- being returned, things changing from being not— being returned, things changing from being not critical to critical, if the problems the schools have had already— the problems the schools have had already been addressed, and it had been fixed, we will not find ourselves in the situation. the scottish come _ ourselves in the situation. the scottish come and _ ourselves in the situation. tue: scottish come and stand accused, ourselves in the situation. ti2 scottish come and stand accused, of course, by their political opponents and by others of saying that they should have addressed this months ago. the well being a colony secretary neil gray has insisted that there is nothing to suggest that there is nothing to suggest that school safety has been compromised. he told bbc scotland's the sunday show, many assessments and checks have been done already, there is no immediate risk to people using the buildings. if necessary, mitigations will be put in place where raac is in place, there is concern around it to ensure the ongoing safety of the building and people using it. there is no reason to believe that safety concerns changed in the previous weeks. peter is in ringwood. rowan is in oxford. mark is in camberley. you are all on. rowan, what do you think about gillian keegan?— gillian keegan? yes, well, i text in because i comment _ gillian keegan? yes, well, i text in because i comment you _ gillian keegan? yes, well, i text in because i comment you made - gillian keegan? yes, well, i text in l because i comment you made earlier to one of your speakers, which was does gillian keegan, what she said, some people are saying that itjust shows she is human, other people are saying it is symptomatic of a government in disarray. ijust said i think it shows both things. i think it shows she is only human, to make those sorts of comments, but also it is absolutely indicative of also it is absolutely indicative of a government that hasn't got a handle on many things. i think it is constant pressure that they are under, constant, constant mistakes they seem to make. i think we are seeing it in the way that ministers conduct themselves. notjust seeing it in the way that ministers conduct themselves. not just to gillian keegan, but others, recently. the use of the f—word i am not sure that is too much air and off the record statement. but i think the underlying sense that they haven't got a handle on what is going on matters. it haven't got a handle on what is going on matters.— haven't got a handle on what is going on matters. it was a school --uil going on matters. it was a school pupil error _ going on matters. it was a school pupil error to _ going on matters. it was a school pupil error to do _ going on matters. it was a school pupil error to do that. _ going on matters. it was a school pupil error to do that. she - going on matters. it was a school pupil error to do that. she still i pupil error to do that. she still had her microphone on. it caused much consternation in my house, different reactions. my four adult daughters at home, one of them used the word ridiculous, stupid, and what was she thinking. and the other said, that is epic and they were all laughing. it was like something out of the, the programme the thick of it. one of those moments. that scri -t it. one of those moments. that script writing — it. one of those moments. that script writing exists _ it. one of those moments. trait script writing exists because that is the way that, presumably, these people talk to each other when the cameras aren't rolling. fight! people talk to each other when the cameras aren't rolling.— cameras aren't rolling. and on whatsapp- — cameras aren't rolling. and on whatsapp- eat _ cameras aren't rolling. and on whatsapp. eat it _ cameras aren't rolling. and on whatsapp. eat it in _ cameras aren't rolling. and onj whatsapp. eat it in ringwood, cameras aren't rolling. and on - whatsapp. eat it in ringwood, you used to work in concrete, why was this stuff ever used?— this stuff ever used? well, good morninu. this stuff ever used? well, good morning- many _ this stuff ever used? well, good morning. many years _ this stuff ever used? well, good morning. many years ago - this stuff ever used? well, good morning. many years ago when l this stuff ever used? well, good j morning. many years ago when i this stuff ever used? well, good - morning. many years ago when i was in concrete. — morning. many years ago when i was in concrete, to be competitive, you have _ in concrete, to be competitive, you have to _ in concrete, to be competitive, you have to get — in concrete, to be competitive, you have to get substitutes to concrete. a product _ have to get substitutes to concrete. a product called pfa went into the mix _ a product called pfa went into the mix what — a product called pfa went into the mix. what would happen is that we would _ mix. what would happen is that we would use — mix. what would happen is that we would use less cement, which would make _ would use less cement, which would make it _ would use less cement, which would make it more competitive concrete. but if _ make it more competitive concrete. but if we _ make it more competitive concrete. but if we go — make it more competitive concrete. but if we go to the issue here, government would put them out to tender, _ government would put them out to tender, underthe government would put them out to tender, under the tender would government would put them out to tender, underthe tenderwould be won by— tender, underthe tenderwould be won by whoever the building contractor, and then the building contractor— contractor, and then the building contractor would work with the architect, _ contractor would work with the architect, who would agree and specify— architect, who would agree and specify what concrete is used. and to be _ specify what concrete is used. and to be cheaper, the substitute product — to be cheaper, the substitute product was put into the concrete. so, product was put into the concrete. so. this— product was put into the concrete. so. this was— product was put into the concrete. so, this was coming in from poland and other— so, this was coming in from poland and other places. what happened was, it would _ and other places. what happened was, it would go— and other places. what happened was, it would go into the mix. 50 if you were _ it would go into the mix. 50 if you were mixing — it would go into the mix. 50 if you were mixing the 30 newton concrete, that is _ were mixing the 30 newton concrete, that is the _ were mixing the 30 newton concrete, that is the strength of the concrete, you would be 25% of this into the _ concrete, you would be 25% of this into the mix. that is what the contractor— into the mix. that is what the contractor was paying for. however, cubes _ contractor was paying for. however, cubes have — contractor was paying for. however, cubes have to be taken of the mix on site, cubes have to be taken of the mix on site. of— cubes have to be taken of the mix on site. of so— cubes have to be taken of the mix on site, of so many loads of the concrete. _ site, of so many loads of the concrete, to test the strength of it, concrete, to test the strength of it. after— concrete, to test the strength of it. after so — concrete, to test the strength of it, after so many days, etc. put me riaht it, after so many days, etc. put me ri . ht on it, after so many days, etc. put me right on this _ it, after so many days, etc. put me right on this one. _ it, after so many days, etc. put me right on this one. somebody - it, after so many days, etc. put me right on this one. somebody has i it, after so many days, etc. put me | right on this one. somebody hasjust right on this one. somebody has just tweeted to say, nicky, please put right the conflated myth, put this to bed, people are saying that, oil was used knowing it only had a service life of 30 years, this is untrue. this was only established after checking installations that have been built decades before. is that right, in your experience? lloathed that right, in your experience? what went into the _ that right, in your experience? what went into the concrete, _ that right, in your experience? what went into the concrete, it _ that right, in your experience? what went into the concrete, it was quite new to _ went into the concrete, it was quite new to the — went into the concrete, it was quite new to the industry. 50, there is an argument _ new to the industry. 50, there is an argument there, the product was put into the _ argument there, the product was put into the cement, mixed with the cement. — into the cement, mixed with the cement, the stones and sand, etc, and you _ cement, the stones and sand, etc, and you would make your mix. 25 newton, — and you would make your mix. 25 newton, 30 — and you would make your mix. 25 newton, 30 newton, whatever it would _ newton, 30 newton, whatever it would. and then you had a cube, you would _ would. and then you had a cube, you would take _ would. and then you had a cube, you would take a — would. and then you had a cube, you would take a cue from the cement up different— would take a cue from the cement up different aspects, and then that went— different aspects, and then that went off— different aspects, and then that went off to the lab. 50 they would have evidence of the cubes, to test them _ have evidence of the cubes, to test them for— have evidence of the cubes, to test them for the strength of the concrete _ them for the strength of the concrete a month later, two or three months _ concrete a month later, two or three months later. concrete a month later, two or three months later-— concrete a month later, two or three months later. what are the merits of raac? the merits? _ months later. what are the merits of raac? the merits? the _ months later. what are the merits of raac? the merits? the merits - months later. what are the merits of raac? the merits? the merits of. raac? the merits? the merits of raac, raac? the merits? the merits of raac. basically — raac? the merits? the merits of raac, basically it _ raac? the merits? the merits of raac, basically it is _ raac? the merits? the merits of raac, basically it is a _ raac? the merits? the merits of raac, basically it is a product - raac? the merits? the merits of| raac, basically it is a product that goes _ raac, basically it is a product that goes in _ raac, basically it is a product that goes in the — raac, basically it is a product that goes in the mix which means you use less cement — goes in the mix which means you use less cement. so it made the tarmac companies — less cement. so it made the tarmac companies ready mixed concrete, however. — companies ready mixed concrete, however, cheaper. it brought the price _ however, cheaper. it brought the price of— however, cheaper. it brought the price of concrete down. so it's a bit like — price of concrete down. so it's a bit like buying food with substitute product _ bit like buying food with substitute product in, really. it was another way of— product in, really. it was another way of using less cement. cement is strong _ way of using less cement. cement is strong on _ way of using less cement. cement is strong on its — way of using less cement. cement is strong on its own. 50 you wouldn't have _ strong on its own. 50 you wouldn't have the _ strong on its own. 50 you wouldn't have the problem in the storms if you had _ have the problem in the storms if you had used just cement. the problem — you had used just cement. the problem you have got as you have used _ problem you have got as you have used a _ problem you have got as you have used a product that was unknown when we started _ used a product that was unknown when we started using it, in concrete. peter— we started using it, in concrete. peter in — we started using it, in concrete. peter in ringwood, a great call, thank you very much indeed. david wernick, executive chairman of the wernick, executive chairman of the wernick group, a supplier of portable classrooms. have people beenin portable classrooms. have people been in touch with you? mag. portable classrooms. have people been in touch with you? way, along with several — been in touch with you? way, along with several other _ been in touch with you? way, along with several other companies - been in touch with you? way, along with several other companies in - been in touch with you? way, along with several other companies in ourj with several other companies in our industry, are in direct contact with the dfe in regards to the problem, because clearly emergency action has to be taken. and classrooms are required throughout the uk. lloathed to be taken. and classrooms are required throughout the uk. what are the sa in: required throughout the uk. what are they saying to — required throughout the uk. what are they saying to you? — required throughout the uk. what are they saying to you? they _ required throughout the uk. what are they saying to you? they are - required throughout the uk. what are they saying to you? they are asking l they saying to you? they are asking what our provision _ they saying to you? they are asking what our provision is, _ they saying to you? they are asking what our provision is, how- they saying to you? they are asking what our provision is, how quickly i what our provision is, how quickly can we carry out this task, how many schools can we handle, and it's very much a kim to what happened at the beginning of covid, where hundreds and hundreds of test centres were set up around the uk, in a very, very short period of time. we were one of the major suppliers of those. we worked closely with the department of health and social care. this is an area where we have enormous expertise in terms of the provision of emergency accommodation.- provision of emergency accommodation. ., ., , ,. , accommodation. how many schools can ou accommodation. how many schools can you supply? — accommodation. how many schools can you supply? that _ accommodation. how many schools can you supply? that will— accommodation. how many schools can you supply? that will be _ accommodation. how many schools can you supply? that will be down - accommodation. how many schools can you supply? that will be down to - accommodation. how many schools can you supply? that will be down to the i you supply? that will be down to the dfe, in you supply? that will be down to the dfe. in terms _ you supply? that will be down to the dfe, in terms of _ you supply? that will be down to the dfe, in terms of what _ you supply? that will be down to the dfe, in terms of what their- you supply? that will be down to the dfe, in terms of what their overall i dfe, in terms of what their overall requirements are. but we are one of the three leading companies in the uk, the oldest company in the uk, having been trading since 1934. not under my chairmanship, i have to say, my grandfather started the company. we have, with in our own hire fleet, 32,000 buildings which are operated out of 35 centres around the uk. funnily enough, one of our depots is in nairn. her around the uk. funnily enough, one of our depots is in nairn.— of our depots is in nairn. her name was nairn. — of our depots is in nairn. her name was nairn. but _ of our depots is in nairn. her name was nairn, but she _ of our depots is in nairn. her name was nairn, but she was _ of our depots is in nairn. her name was nairn, but she was in - of our depots is in nairn. her name was nairn, but she was in irving. i we area we are a national company with enormous resources. we have a manufacturing plant in south wales, where these buildings are actually manufactured. ok. where these buildings are actually manufactured.— where these buildings are actually manufactured. ., , . manufactured. ok. thanks very much. leave me a — manufactured. ok. thanks very much. leave me a business _ manufactured. ok. thanks very much. leave me a business card, _ manufactured. ok. thanks very much. leave me a business card, it's - manufactured. ok. thanks very much. leave me a business card, it's going i leave me a business card, it's going to be a busy time for you. kathleen in cardiff, ex head teacher, in charge buildings. i in cardiff, ex head teacher, in charge buildings.— in cardiff, ex head teacher, in charge buildings. i was a deputy head teacher _ charge buildings. i was a deputy head teacher at _ charge buildings. i was a deputy head teacher at the _ charge buildings. i was a deputy head teacher at the time, - charge buildings. i was a deputy head teacher at the time, in - charge buildings. i was a deputy i head teacher at the time, in charge of a 1930s building, comprehensive. for whatever reason, everybody decided it would be a good idea to devolved budgets to schools, not of the local authority, and we had charge of our buildings. if a problem arose, it was up to the governors and the school management team to make it a priority with the money that they had. and if they didn't have enough money, to go to the local authorities and seek help. some of these schools that are in the news now have had surveys, they knew there was a problem. maybe they didn't have the management team set “p didn't have the management team set up properly, or... i don't know, other things came into being, that they prioritised. it's not entirely they prioritised. it's not entirely the government's vault. yes, after the government's vault. yes, after the war, and i'm old enough to remember after the war, things were built that weren't really acceptable. they should have been kept an eye on. perhaps they weren't. it is not entirely the government's false. with regard to gillian keegan and her language, not my kind of language, but it is everyday language with some people. they have to get used to having hostile media interviews with little credit for what they actually do. maybe she was just feeling a bit sore about that. sorry, you wanted to ask me a question? it sore about that. sorry, you wanted to ask me a question?— sore about that. sorry, you wanted to ask me a question? it was such an interestin: to ask me a question? it was such an interesting thought _ to ask me a question? it was such an interesting thought that _ to ask me a question? it was such an interesting thought that came - to ask me a question? it was such an interesting thought that came from l interesting thought that came from you that i have forgotten what my question was. we were talking about whether it is the government's fault. , . , fault. everything funded by government, _ fault. everything funded by government, devolved - fault. everything funded by government, devolved or. fault. everything funded by i government, devolved or not, fault. everything funded by - government, devolved or not, it's partly their fault. but it was down to the schools to raise a stink if they had a school that wasn't safe. so, an element of support, or sympathy with the government and with gillian keegan. that's interesting. that's why it's important to hear from everybody when we do this. i suppose people would say it is gillian keegan's job to take responsibility, because she is the secretary of state. breaking news for you, the b&m european value retail has agreed to buy will close doors for £30 million. wilko. it went into administration last month. many people watching now are extremely worried about the future. there will be more on this on the bbc website and app, and also on bbc radio 5 live. i'll tell you the story again. b&m european value retail has agreed to buy up to 50 wilko stores from administrators for £13 million. this hasjust been announced. more on that on the bbc news website and app through the day. we will carry on our conversation of a concrete chaos and who is to blame in the next hour. bbc news leaves us now. live from london, this is bbc news. us officials say north korea's leader plans to travel to russia this month, to meet vladimir putin. the government says it will publish a list of the more than 150 schools in england that contain dangerous concrete. sewage in our water, bbc investigation suggests that three major water companies released raw sewage illegally hundreds of times last year. and organisers have finally given the go—ahead for people to leave the burning man festival welcome. a high level and high stakes meeting could happen this month between north korea's leader and russian president vladimir putin, that could impact the war in ukraine. according to us officials he is expected to make a rare visit overseas and discuss the possibility of north korea providing moscow with weapons to support its war in ukraine. the exact location of the planned meeting is not clear. in a statement us national security officials say that arms negotiations between russia and north korea are actively an vansing, so will kim jong—un a man rarely seen outside his country go to russia for this meeting. here is our seoul correspondent. there is a question mark now over whether this meeting will go ahead, because as you say kimjong—un rarely will go ahead, because as you say kim jong—un rarely leaves the country, the last time he left was to go and see vladimir putin back in april 2019, and the last few times we know he has travelled he has travelled by armoured train, he

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