like. ~ �* , u, after it split up and what it looks like. ~ 2 . , like. well, it's called concrete but i think the — like. well, it's called concrete but i think the most _ like. well, it's called concrete but i think the most important - like. well, it's called concrete but i think the most important thing l like. well, it's called concrete but| i think the most important thing to be aware of is that it isn't really like ordinary concrete as we know it, as engineers and the general public knows it. 0rdinary concrete weighs about two and a half times as much as water. this concrete floats on water. it weighs about two thirds of the same amount, so it's about a quarter of the weight of ordinary concrete. it's nothing like ordinary, dense concrete. it is also only around 10% as strong as ordinary concrete. it's only got one tenth of the strength. so, it's really quite misleading in a sense to call it concrete. it's a different material, although it's made with cement and it hardens into a solid —like material but it's nothing like ordinary concrete. if you touch it does it crumble? nothing like ordinary concrete. if| you touch it does it crumble? not nothing like ordinary concrete. if. you touch it does it crumble? not if ou 'ust you touch it does it crumble? not if you just touch _ you touch it does it crumble? not if you just touch it — you touch it does it crumble? not if you just touch it but _ you touch it does it crumble? not if you just touch it but it's _ you touch it does it crumble? not if you just touch it but it's very - you touch it does it crumble? not if you just touch it but it's very easy l you just touch it but it's very easy to break it apart, if you take a thin piece you can snap it in your hand. if you stick a screwdriver into it, you can stick it into it. you can't do any of those things with ordinary concrete.- you can't do any of those things with ordinary concrete. thank you for aaivin with ordinary concrete. thank you for giving us _ with ordinary concrete. thank you for giving us that _ with ordinary concrete. thank you for giving us that primer. - live now to westminster and our political correspondent nick eardley. 0n nicky campbell's phone—in this morning, one caller said, "this is the patter of this government, they cut costs then face problems and have to sort them by taking money from other departments." another caller said, "it doesn't matter which government installed raac, it matters that they take action now." what's your take? well, i think the government is going to come under huge pressure to deal with this but also to explain how it got to a stage where just last week hundreds of schools were being told they were facing significant problems and possible closures. 0ne significant problems and possible closures. one of the questions that's being asked around westminster is why when warnings about raac were issued, more wasn't done then. we've heard from the education secretary this morning that there were surveys sent out, that there were surveys sent out, that there were surveys sent out, that the governments been looking at this but the problem escalated over the past few weeks, hence this situation. there's quite a specific question for the prime minister, for rishi sunak, because there is an allegation being made by a former senior official at the department for education that they were calling for education that they were calling for a lot more money to deal with the rebuilding of schools and to deal with some of these issues. and instead, they saw their budget for this sort of thing halved. the accusation was that it wasn't taken seriously enough and that rishi sunak as chancellor made the decision. the prime minister has rejected that this morning saying it's completely wrong for him to be blamed but there is no doubt there's a lot of heat on the government this morning and that big question, could they have dealt with it sooner? let's bring viewers up—to—date. the former permanent secretary of the department for education, jonathan slater, spoke about information the department provided as far back as four years ago on the issue. it is worth hearing how he put it. the spending review was completed a year after i left the department, and i was absolutely amazed to see that the decision made by the government was to halve the school rebuilding programme, down from 100 a year to 50 a year. so the actual ask in the spending review in 2021 was to double the 100 to 200. that's what we thought was going to be practical. in the first instance, i thought we'd get it, but the actual decision that the chancellor took in '21 was to halve the size of the programme. now, ministers, the chancellor, of course, was at the time? - rishi sunak. the department had already mentioned a significant health and safety risks. let's hear again howjonathan slater characterised it a couple of years ago. if the treasury of course have got a concern there is never enough money for everything, but we were able to present them with really good data. we were not just saying there's a significant risk of fatality, we were saying there is a critical risk to life, if this programme is not funded. we've got a question from a viewer, bearing all of that in mind, why didn't the government do anything sooner? i didn't the government do anything sooner? ., didn't the government do anything sooner? . ., , didn't the government do anything sooner? . . , . . ., sooner? i mean, that is the crucial auestion sooner? i mean, that is the crucial question that _ sooner? i mean, that is the crucial question that ministers _ sooner? i mean, that is the crucial question that ministers are - sooner? i mean, that is the crucial question that ministers are facing. i question that ministers are facing. their explanation is that they were looking into this, that surveys have been sent to schools, hundreds of them haven't actually been returned and that there is a big body of work to be done on this. it's worth pointing out because we reflected earlier, that raac isn'tjust used in schools but in some nhs buildings, in courts. this isn't just something that falls at the door of the department for education. the fundamental question i think the government is going to come under a lot of pressure over is whether it could have taken more preventative steps earlier. there is of course a mitigation that if things get worse, then you're spurred into action, you are forced to do something a bit quicker. but as ever, there is that question about whether funding goes on the right place. 0ne about whether funding goes on the right place. one of the accusations we are starting to hear from opponents of the government is that this is basically a symbol of some of the cuts to budgets we've seen over the last few years. it started with austerity under the coalition but other budgets have continued to be squeezed in the years following and i think that is something that's and i think that is something that's a real problem for the government. whether it can shake that off and if the impression it's completely blameless or whether it's going to continue to feel that heat. the education _ continue to feel that heat. the education secretary saying earlier that she thought there were possibly hundreds more schools that could be affected. the hundreds more schools that could be affected. ., ., , �* ., affected. the government hasn't had all the answers _ affected. the government hasn't had all the answers or _ affected. the government hasn't had all the answers or done _ affected. the government hasn't had all the answers or done all _ affected. the government hasn't had all the answers or done all the - all the answers or done all the checks. there is quite possibly hundreds more schools that could be affected. there's the potentialfor nhs buildings to be affected, for courts to be affected, other buildings that have used raac and that fall under the public sector. the bill for this could be huge for the government and then there's the knock—on question of, if that money for schools is having to come from the education budget, what else is squeezed? what are the elements of what the education department is painful in england have to be squeezed as well. i get the impression this will run and run and run on the government is going to face more and more questions and it's going to be a big, big issue. thank you. i'm joined it's going to be a big, big issue. thank you. i'mjoined by it's going to be a big, big issue. thank you. i'm joined by prof sergio cavalaro from loughborough university. his findings and research have informed the new guidance on raac. we've got a question about what the difference between this and reconstitution alloys to stone is. one feel is asking, how many care homes have been built with it? it’s asking, how many care homes have been built with it?— been built with it? it's very difficult to _ been built with it? it's very difficult to assess - been built with it? it's very difficult to assess at - been built with it? it's very difficult to assess at the i been built with it? it's very - difficult to assess at the moment and the materials are clearly different. raac is reinforced and has bubbly structure. it's clearly different. the size of the problem and how it's different. the size of the problem and how its spread is far bigger than we are seeing now and we have to learn to live with it. it will be difficult to tackle it in a short time frame because we lack the budget, even human resources to do it properly as well. we'll have to prioritise and learn to live with it. live now to coventry with damini sharma, ceo 0m group. a question from a viewer, she wonders if a freedom of information request should be sent with a question on multistorey car parks and over passes. people are concerned that raac might have been used notjust in school buildings but other buildings they are using day—to—day. i but other buildings they are using day-to-day-_ but other buildings they are using day-to-day. but other buildings they are using da -to-da . ., ., , �*, ., day-to-day. i mean, of course it's a concern and — day-to-day. i mean, of course it's a concern and until— day-to-day. i mean, of course it's a concern and until we've _ day-to-day. i mean, of course it's a concern and until we've had - day-to-day. i mean, of course it's a concern and until we've had a - day-to-day. i mean, of course it's a concern and until we've had a full i concern and until we've had a full assessment of all of these buildings, until we've had the time taken and as one of the other panellists mentioned as well, there is a massive shortage in the industry of the right resources. that isn'tjust industry of the right resources. that isn't just for the industry of the right resources. that isn'tjust for the actual replacement of any buildings containing raac but also to determine whether it is within other structures as well that are not as high—risk as schools, hospitals and public sector buildings that are used daily. public sector buildings that are used daily-— used daily. surely when this material was _ used daily. surely when this material was put _ used daily. surely when this material was put up - used daily. surely when this material was put up in - used daily. surely when this material was put up in the l used daily. surely when this i material was put up in the risk assessment is made, people would be aware that it has a limited time span so why is there a lack of materials to cope with this when it becomes a problem? it’s materials to cope with this when it becomes a problem?— materials to cope with this when it becomes a problem? it's not so much the lack of materials, _ becomes a problem? it's not so much the lack of materials, it's _ becomes a problem? it's not so much the lack of materials, it's more - becomes a problem? it's not so much the lack of materials, it's more the i the lack of materials, it's more the lack of resource in terms of manpower. when these buildings were put up between the 1950s and early 19805, it put up between the 1950s and early 1980s, it was a very cheap, lightweight material that was easy—to—use, after that there was a lot of rebuilding work that took place and it was a very easy material to use. however, place and it was a very easy materialto use. however, it place and it was a very easy material to use. however, it wasn't determined until the early 90s that raac only had a life span of around 30 years. it wasn't known, they didn't have the level of testing then that they had in the 90s. and when some of the structure started to collapse and this was found to be the problem, the government started the problem, the government started the process of trying to identify buildings containing raac and it has ramped up since 2018 and it's been a hot topic in the industry since then. ,, ., hot topic in the industry since then. . ., , hot topic in the industry since then, ,, ., , ., hot topic in the industry since then. , ., ., ., , then. so, 'ust a go-to this question. — then. so, just a go-to this question, could _ then. so, just a go-to this question, could this - then. so, just a go-to this question, could this affecti then. so, just a go-to this - question, could this affect houses built in the 50s to the 80s? hoist question, could this affect houses built in the 50s to the 80s? how is it is probably _ built in the 50s to the 80s? how is it is probably not _ built in the 50s to the 80s? how is it is probably not so _ built in the 50s to the 80s? how is it is probably not so much. - built in the 50s to the 80s? how is it is probably not so much. this i it is probably not so much. this product was really used mainly in buildings that had a longer span and a largerfootprint. it shouldn't affect houses but care homes, hospitals, public sector buildings, schools, they are going to be the main buildings we are looking at. doctor roberts, we've got a question here from an anonymous contributor saying they don't understand and their parents don't understand why these tests were not conducted during the summer break. talk us through the process and how you actually find out if raac is in a building. actually find out if raac is in a buildini. , .. ., , building. 0k. it is actually quite difficult. lots _ building. 0k. it is actually quite difficult. lots of _ building. 0k. it is actually quite difficult. lots of the _ building. 0k. it is actually quite difficult. lots of the reports - difficult. lots of the reports describing it as failed ceilings but in fact in almost all of these buildings, the raac panels which are normally at roof level are not visible from inside the building. there is usually a false ceiling hiding them from view. so, in order to identify them in the absence of adequate drawings and other documents which is the case for a lot of buildings dating from that period, you have to first remove the ceilings which sometimes are left out panels but sometimes there is plaster you might have to take out. once you've done that, you can visually look at the underside of the roof structure and it will be fairly evident at that stage whether or not raac panels have been used. they are quite distinctive, they are about 600 millimetres wide and they have a distinctive shape and a qualified structural engineer will be able to readily decide whether or not the construction has used the panels, this yearly festival. it's a different issue than testing them is a tricky topic. there isn't a test you can do other than loading them from above, which will determine whether or not they are structurally safe and so essentially these panels are either going to have to be propped which means providing additional support to perhaps half along the spine, or long term they are going to have to be removed. because most of them are at roof level, they have to be removed from the top, lifted out from above, which means you have to also remove the roof covering, the waterproof covering on the roofs. these are normally on flat roofs so it is an intensive process to remove these panels. my suspicion is that the process will be first of all identified and secondly propped temporarily and then thirdly removing and replacing. what temporarily and then thirdly removing and replacing. what kind of weiiht ou removing and replacing. what kind of weight you put _ removing and replacing. what kind of weight you put on — removing and replacing. what kind of weight you put on top _ removing and replacing. what kind of weight you put on top of _ removing and replacing. what kind of weight you put on top of them - removing and replacing. what kind of weight you put on top of them to - weight you put on top of them to test them?— weight you put on top of them to test them? ., , ., ., ., , test them? flat roofs are normally desiined test them? flat roofs are normally designed for _ test them? flat roofs are normally designed for a _ test them? flat roofs are normally designed for a weight _ test them? flat roofs are normally designed for a weight of— test them? flat roofs are normally designed for a weight of not - test them? flat roofs are normally designed for a weight of not .6 - designed for a weight of not .6 kilos per square metre, bearing in mind an average human adult weighs just under one kilo newton. you can see that you need to put sandbags across or something like that. i do not think that the right process is going to be to carry out load tests on these materials. i don't think it's a viable option. this stage we are at now with what's happened in the last few years and what's known about it is it is best to assume they won't have any further longer life, prop them and then remove and replace them. frail life, prop them and then remove and replace them-— replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw ou replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw you nodding _ replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw you nodding there. _ replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw you nodding there. what - replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw you nodding there. what do - replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw you nodding there. what do you i replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw - you nodding there. what do you agree with there? , ., . you nodding there. what do you agree with there? , . . ., , .,

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