it is a great pleasure to have you here. now you are very busy right now because a play that you originally wrote in 2012 and put on in 2012 has been revived at the national theatre in london in just the last few days. and it's got me wondering, as you have been heavily involved with the revival, how have you sort of seen the evolution of your own writing and what interests you? have you changed in the decade? yes, i think i have. i mean, it's so interesting to go back to something you wrote just over ten years ago. as you say, 2012 was the first production of it. it's a play called the effect, and it follows... it follows two triallists taking part in a clinical trial for a new antidepressant and two doctors running it. and the triallists basically start to fall in love, but don't know whether they are actually falling in love or if it's an effect of the new antidepressant that they're trialling. and of course, when i wrote it originally, i felt very close to these young sort of romeo and juliet 20—somethings feeling excited and romantic for the first time. and now i feel much closer to the sort of ao—something, older doctors who are, you know, dealing with their past and what that means and, you know, just being a bit more adult and older and, hopefully, wiser. do you feel as in love with the theatre now as you did then? i do feel more in love with the theatre in some ways than i did then. back when i wrote the effect originally, i was working quite a lot more in theatre, and then i went away to do television for quite a long time. i've been working on a show i do with billie piper called i hate suzie and, of course, succession. you say, "of course succession," because it's been such a massive global hit and many people watching and listening will know it, but for those who don't, in essence, it's the story of a media mogul and his family based in new york. and many would say reminding them, somewhat, of rupert murdoch and his particularfamily. you might say that. i couldn't possibly comment. but nonetheless, that is interesting because it's been a huge success. you were an instrumental writer, part of the team in it. and ijust wondered whether that has taken you in a new direction. i think it's improved my writing. it's very difficult to work on a show like succession as a writer and executive producer with the other writers and producers i work with and the actors, of course, and not become a better writer. i've been doing it, i was doing it for six years, involved very heavily in every season. and you work with actors of that quality, but also writers of that quality and you learn so, so much about what to put in, what to leave out often as well. and so i think i've come back to theatre both hopefully better equipped, you know, knowing how to edit something and how to work with actors, but also missing that very special family relationship that you get in theatre that you don't get in screen. well, that's interesting because i actually thought from reading some of the things you've said about your own creative process in the past, that it worked the other way. that you found writing for theatre quite a lonely experience, much lonelier than the collaboration that comes with sitting in a writers�* room — for example, during the creation of succession — where you're playing off six or seven other people. yeah. actually, you're right, but it reverses itself. so the writers�* room for a tv show like succession is extremely familial and supportive and lovely. but when you shoot something, what happens is it's a very shattered experience. you're probably filming it out of order, if you're doing a big tv show. so you might be filming something from right at the end of the season just because you've got the location to do it. and also, the actors sometimes, if they're not in the same scenes, they may not even meet each other because everyone's just brought to set when they're needed. whereas, yeah, writing a play, hugely lonely experience, just you and the screen, just, you know, banging your head against it. but when you rehearse, it's you and the actors in the room every day together. so it's sort of the other way round. you said once that you found writing, and i think this was mostly your writing for the theatre, excruciating. it seems to me odd — you know, and we talk to artists, creatives on this show — it always seems to me odd that you would expose yourself time and again to something that you find excruciating. i mean, yeah, you and my therapist. imean, yeah! it's, it's a... it's a very strange thing. erm... do you still find it excruciating? you've been doing it for two decades. i know, i mean, i've got to admit that, yeah, often i do. it's the level of... it's partly that, it's partly the loneliness that you often have, but it is also something to do with the self—disclosure, the exposure and vulnerability of it. you know, if you write something decent, someone once said to me, "there should be a drop of blood on every page." and i think what i took from that is that you can't get away, if you want something to be really good, you can't get away with writing in a sort of general, slightly superficial, fun way, although those things work and people do like them. but if you want to do something brilliant, there has to be a drop of blood on every page. and i guess what that means, as pretentious as it might sound, is you've got to really dig quite deeply. you've got to share things, even if they're versions of the truth and not the actual truth that feel quite vulnerable. and getting up every day and doing that and then having a bunch of people eventually tell you whether they think it's any good or not — and they will tell you quite loudly — is, you know, it's a very specific experience. and that's. .. it may be churlish of me to frame it this way, because i've already referred to all the successes you've had, but i wonder what you learned from one massive failure you had? sure. because you took enron, which was a play about a massive financial scam, which came during the sort of tech boom of the late 19905 and early 20005. it preceded the financial crash. you wrote a play about it. it was a very powerful play, which did extraordinarily well in london. you took it to broadway, a hugely expensive production. yeah. and within a month, it closed. yeah. it was maybe one of the biggest losses of money on broadway... well, it's certainly in the top few. so, if you drip blood into your creative process, how damaging, how hurtful was that? imean... how hurtful was it? it's a really great question. it felt... the word that comes to mind more than hurt is shame. you feel very ashamed. really? yeah. because, you know, for a while, the eyes of a certain industry are on you, you know? and you feel like everybody�*s watching you fail. and there is a very human feeling of shame to that. also, the shame of losing people like investors�* money and, you know... of course, the huge irony is that that production ended up repeating exactly the journey of enron. this hugely hyped thing turned up on the great white way in broadway with lots of people�*s money in it and just collapsed, very much like the energy company. and i tell you, if i didn�*t know the feeling of the show i was making till then, i did afterwards, you know. and so it was a very... yeah, it... look, success makes you attractive, but failure makes you funny and it also makes you worth spending time with. like, the best stories in theatre and in all of show business come from the great failures. they start off, people go, "oh, i was in this awful show once." or, "0h..." you know, and that�*s... and it�*s character and all of that, but, yeah, it wasn�*t a great feeling, but it was meaningful, you know. we�*ve talked to quite a number of directors and actors on hardtalk, people who love that branch of the sort of show business, entertainment industry. what i haven�*t done is spoken to somebody who has done so well in theatre and in tv, but who�*s also embraced the world of gaming and actually used your writing skill, i believe, in writing sort of screenplays and storylines for games. yeah. why does that attract you? i love games. i�*ve always loved games. when i was... i was born in 1980, and basically that�*s probably the very, very beginning of video gaming in a popular sense or in a...available to the public sense. so it�*s an art form that�*s grown up with me in my lifetime, and ijust, ijust adore it. i love how interactive it is. i love how responsive it is. i love how emotional the possibilities of it are. there�*s so many independent games out there that are doing things that are genuinely, massively exciting in a way that other forms just aren�*t. they aren�*t... so you don�*t find it constricting, you know, one—dimensional in artistic terms? absolutely not. you know, frankly, the cliche stereotype view would be that there�*s too much predictability about sort of going through a game where there�*s jeopardy and you survive the jeopardy and you go on to the next jeopardy and you come through that one, too. have you watched any movies lately? i mean, yeah, i�*m with you, but i don�*t think that�*s completely confined to gaming. and i also think if one seeks out the very independent, maybe even what you�*d call artier games that are available, people can be creating them in their own households and then uploading them to formats like steam and so on. so, you know, there�*s also this kind of, this really exciting creativity, straight from creator to gamer, which i find really exciting. but, look, don�*t get me wrong, the big, what they call aaa games, the ones that you kind of think of, do have a kind of slightly banal insistence on a kind of particular kind of violence and a particular kind of obstacle—overcoming. but like i said, you would say that about hollywood as well. indeed. and i�*m sure you saw the success of the last of us. oh, i loved the last of us. which was a hugely successful game and became a hugely successful tv streaming storyline. yeah. there�*s money in this. i mean, i think in 2020, i looked at the figures, $160 billion generated by the gaming industry, compared with $41 billion in movies. absolutely. be honest with me — is that part of the attraction? for a talented writer like you, is that where you�*re heading? i actually... i actually have thought recently about returning to working in gaming, but mostly, honestly, because it�*s so formally interesting to me. it doesn�*t feel to me like it�*s reached anywhere near the limits of its creative ability and capacity, cos it�*s such a young art form compared to television or screen. so that is honestly why i�*m so fascinated by it. but, yeah, of course, they... if they pay well, that is not the case for some other areas of our industry. and, of course, that features. one has to live. but, yeah... yeah, iloved... i loved the last of us. i think the game is a work of art that�*s really extraordinary. let me ask you about some of the hurdles you�*ve had to overcome in your career. i know that you�*ve had to deal with sexism — because you�*ve written about it — and misogyny, and you wrote extremely candidly about what happened when you took on a job which, reluctantly, you did take on, collaborating a little bit with harvey weinstein... oh, yeah. ..some years back. and in late 2017, you wrote about the whole experience, but with a lot of nuance. you didn�*t characterise weinstein as an all—out monster. you characterise the way he approached you as a bit complicated and your reactions to him as a bit complicated. yeah. now, cos we�*re in 2023, do you think things have changed a great dealfrom even then, which was when you wrote that piece, six years ago? yes. there�*s no doubt that certain things have changed in the industry, by which i mean... ..there is definitely a greater concern about... how do i put it? both opportunities in the industry and them being more equal than they have been before and representation in the industry. now, the question as to whether those things come from an honest attempt to try and change things or whether they come from a superficial idea that we should be doing this and be seen to be doing this is up for debate. whether that matters is also up for debate. if people are doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, does it really matter? so, yeah, there�*s definitely been a change in leadership roles and in powerful roles. i think for a very long time, when you look at the very top, when you look at who has the massive amount of money and the massive amount of power, that has always been white men. and that is difficult to see beyond right now, even with changes. but what i�*ll say is that what�*s on screen does feel different to me. and some of the people running shows, directing shows — creative voices — do feel different to me. and when you say, "what�*s on screen feels different to me," you can be part of that, you are part of that, cos you have written the most fascinating women characters. i�*m thinking of shiv in succession, who... i believe you were quite involved in developing her character... yeah. ..and also the billie piper character in i hate suzie, who is a very complex woman... yeah. ..likeable, but also deeply unlikeable... 0h, a nightmare! an absolute nightmare, yeah! so is that important to you, that...? you know, male leads for forever have been complex men and we understand their backstories and there�*s a lot of sort of nuance in there. do you insist now that the women you write have just as much right to nuance and complexity? 0h, of course, absolutely. and, yeah, iam really proud of that. i love writing characters like shiv and suzie pickles, who�*s played by billie piper. but also there�*s a need for it, because there�*s a lot more television than there ever has been before and we need to sort of expand what we�*re doing within that... is the audience ready for it? yeah, i hope so. i think they�*re quite hungry for it. as you said, there�*s been quite a lot of a dissection of a certain kind of masculinity for a long time — brilliantly, with some of the greatest works of art of all time — and i think we�*re just about at a point where we can start to dissect the idea of femininity as much, with as much nuance, criticism, celebration, as all of those things as well. and that�*s what makes good art, notjust sort of, you know... ..putting women on screen, but having them just be lovely and undramatic, that doesn�*t help anybody. and i hate suzie was an extremely female—centric production, wasn�*t it? yeah. imean... at every level — acting, producing, directing, the whole thing. totally. it was a really rare experience because we had heads of department... all of our heads of department were women. so you had a really interesting set, which was... i�*d never been on a set like that before. normally, when you work on a television set or a film set, what it feels like is a faintly military exercise in which you�*re sort of invited to observe, whereas it had a very different vibe to have that many women in charge. and it was... yeah, it was a really interesting experience. i�*m going to quote you now a couple of important men in the arts world who are talking a lot these days about cancel culture and the degree to which they feel that — and we can talk about what it really means — but they use the phrase. and they say cancel culture, to quote will gompertz, who�*s director of the barbican, artistic director of the barbican arts centre in london, "the number one "challenge facing the arts today," he says. he says, "the purpose of the arts is to question, "challenge, reflect and enlighten. "great art reveals a truth, and debate and disagreement "about that truth has to be the function of art. "but such is the rallying power of social media today "that debate is being stifled by self—censorship." do you agree? no, i don�*t agree with that. i don�*t... i�*m not in the business of self—censorship. and... do you fear some people — creatives — are? they worry so much now about what might be a vitriolic response from people on social media, you know, efforts to describe their work as toxic? well, i would guess that�*s part and parcel of creating work is thinking through how it might be received and deciding how much you care about that. i think that�*s probably always been the case of creating work, and it is very painful to be criticised or insulted. i think, as you said earlier, i... i�*m very sceptical and suspicious of phrases that become catchall terms for things because they�*re so useful — politically and culturally — in media. so when we think of a term like "cancel culture", and i can think of lots of other examples of it, you have to sort of be specific about what you�*re talking about. if you�*re talking about somebody not creating a piece of work because they fear people might not like it, yeah, welcome to the club. that�*s how i spend the vast majority of my working life, too, is going, "i�*m really worried about writing this cos "i think people might not like it." yeah, i mean, that�*s the cost of doing business, i�*m afraid. but, i mean, it doesn�*t stop you, does it? well, no, clearly not. i mean, i get... i get bad reviews... i can�*t know what you haven�*t written. good point. that�*s true, good point, but what i... the things i haven�*t written, i haven�*t written partly because, yeah, i don�*t think they�*d be good enough, and i think that�*s a good reason not to write... that�*s a great reason not to do it, but it�*s a different reason from... for example, just for an example... yeah. ..you know, we all know what�*s happened tojk rowling as she�*s entered the debate, the transgender debate. we know what�*s happened to her, you know... what, she�*s still an absolutely multi—multi—millionaire with loads of fans? yeah. yeah, disaster. yeah, but she�*s had the actors who performed in the movies of the harry potter series disown her and all sorts of other things, which, you know, clearly, as an artist, she�*s found upsetting. it�*s not to say her books don�*t still sell by the million, but she�*s...she�*s clearly gone into territory which has then been difficult. and ijust wonder, when you look at that sort of thing, would you think to yourself, you know, "i don�*t want to even... whatever my view. — your personal views on the transgender issues — "..i just don�*t want to write a play about that, "it would just be too difficult — you know, "too many minefields" ? i mean, then don�*t write a play about it. and that�*s your choice. imean, ijust... ifind it extraordinary that a generation — and it is particularly, often, generational — who are so happy to accuse young people and the culture in general of being fragile and of being unresilient have such a hard time when people say that the things that they have deliberately politically come out about and discussed with passion and even vitriol, they then have to hear consequential reactions to that. i just... ifind it extraordinary and quite boring. and so, yeah, i think cancel culture is really an idea that has emerged because it�*s alliterative and easy to talk about without nuance. and i think that i�*m interested in specific examples of human beings trying to treat each other well. and i think they�*re mostly fine... just one more example. the critic and sort of culture commentator kate copstick, she�*s particularly interested in comedy. now, i mean, actually, a lot of what you write is funny, but you don�*t do... thank you. ..outright sort of comedy. but she says, "at this year�*s edinburgh fringe..." and the fringe is a sort of artistic sort of firmament that goes on in edinburgh every year. she says, "i�*ve never known the fringe be so censorious." that word censorious — do you feel an intolerance, a censoriousness, in the arts today that might not have been there ten years ago? i understand what people mean when they say that. i think the idea that they might say something wrong or do something wrong, i can understand the human need... and, actually, it�*s often coming from a good place, which is, "i don�*t want to upset people..." and then being slightly angry that they might upset people when they know they�*re a good person. those are all really understandable emotional things that human beings feel. i don�*t know about what is and isn�*t censorious in comedy. what i do know is that the very, very funny things often do take quite difficult subjects and use them. so when a joke is really, really funny, it can deal with really quite challenging, difficult subjects. i can think of... i can think of ten comedians off the top of my head who do that regularly at very high level. i think there is an issue, if it isn�*t nuanced and funny enough and specific enough, it can be seen as a little bit sort of lazy or pejorative. but i think the challenge there is to take subject matter that feels challenging and be extremely funny. right. that conquers all in the end? in comedy, it does. one last challenge for you, and this is relevant to what�*s happening in the united states with the screenwriters�* strike. yeah. partly, it�*s about money and the dynamic of power in their industry, but it�*s also about their fears of artificial intelligence and the degree to which the big studios and others may already be working on projects to get al to do the work of writers and actors. you�*re a writer. how worried are you? yeah, i�*m pretty worried. i�*ll be honest with you, i�*ve certainly... i�*ve played around with the very basic ai things that are available, the chatgpts, and i think... and, of course, what�*s actually happening right now is far more sophisticated than that. i do think it is worrying. it is a cost—saving exercise. and i do believe they are already doing things like cutting trailers quietly with al... have you tried... have you tried, "write something in the style of lucy "prebble"? i have exactly done that, which is slightly shameful... and what comes out? you know, something which is...quite depressing! stuff where you recognise what it�*s drawing from. it isn�*t necessarily of a high quality, but... i don�*t know whether to be insulted by that or enthused by that. it�*s complicated. but i�*m reading them and i�*m thinking, "0k, "so you are drawing on material that�*s available from me," so there is a copyright issue also there that�*s rarely discussed. but also... yeah, but also it may not be sophisticated yet, but it will be...it will be, one day, really sophisticated, and i am worried about that. the only thing... the only thing that doesn�*t concern me is i do think that what studios and streamers don�*t realise is that audiences will respond to that change. there�*s something about art that means that human beings are more affected the more effort they know has gone into something. for example, if i were to show you, like, a statue of rodin�*s the kiss, knowing how it was sculpted, over what time and who did it, you�*d be more moved by that than if it was just cut out with a laser by a computer, even if it�*s exactly the same sculpture. and that�*s true of humans generally. so i think one of the things they don�*t necessarily realise is if a! was generating content in the way they wanted it to, it would actually be less emotionally valuable to people, as long as they knew al was creating it, of course. we have to end there. thank you so much for being on hardtalk. thank you, stephen. hello. the weather has started to turn a little drier and brighter and over the next couple of days we can expect it to turn a little warmer as well, with increasing levels of humidity. it may feel as if summer has returned but it�*s not entirely plain sailing, as i�*ll show you in a moment. high—pressure in charge of the scene for wednesday morning. a fairly weak area of high pressure so it�*s not going to suppress all of the shower activity, but most places are looking at are largely dry day, once any early fog has cleared. we will see a fair amount of cloud across the northeast of scotland with some bits and pieces of rain. elsewhere, sunny spells, scattered showers and temperatures peaking at about 26 celsius in the southeast of england, even further north and west — 20 for belfast, 21 there in glasgow. 0ur area of high pressure is going to strengthen and also move to the northeast and that will start to bring the winds in from the new continent where it is quite warm at the moment. so, a feed of warmer air across our shores will mean a widely warmer day on thursday. spells of sunshine, some showers but not many of those. bit of early fog across the northern half of the country, that should tend to clear. temperatures widely up into the 20s, maybe 23 for glasgow, 2a for london but some places are likely to get to around 26 celsius. just how warm it gets on friday will depend upon the progress of these frontal systems pushing in from the atlantic. if these fronts hang back a bit and we see more in the way of brightness, well, with some very humid air, temperatures really could climb, but it looks most likely that these fronts will move in quite quickly bringing cloud and outbreaks of rain and suppressing temperatures, 17—24 degrees, but bear in mind, even if that cloud and rain moves in, it will feel very humid indeed. friday night is expected to bring heavy, thundery rain, driving its way northwards and eastwards but behind that we return to something drier and brighter for saturday. yes, some scattered showers, out towards the west, but some spells of sunshine and a slightly fresher feel by saturday afternoon but still with temperatures in many places up into the 20s. and for sunday, low pressure will be spinning to the north—west of us, higher pressure further south and east so where you�*re closest to the area of high pressure, that�*s were you can expect things to be mostly dry. could be a bit of fog around through the morning. some showers towards the north and west and temperatures again for most places up into the 20s — 25 for norwich and london, 21 for glasgow, 22 in aberdeen. into the start of next week, we may see another surge of warm airfrom the near continent, particularly across south—eastern parts of the uk. further north and west, low pressure will always be close by so the chance for some showers at times. could be some thunderstorms briefly breaking out across the southeast corner. later in the week, high pressure looks set to building in from the atlantic but this will bring a slightly different wind direction, those winds coming in from the west so not particularly warm through the second half of the week. so briefly a spell of warm weather is possible early next week, but still with some showers further north and west and then it looks like those temperatures will generally come down a little bit through the middle part of the week. but, some summer warmth in the forecast for the coming days. live from london, this is bbc news. england and australia are set for an epic semifinal in the women�*s world cup — we�*ll be live in sydney with a former matilda. ukrainian captives released in prisoner exchanges have told the bbc they were subjected to torture while held in russia. north korea says that the us soldier who crossed into the country last month, did so over racism in the army. leaders of a global wildlife gang have been convicted over smuggling and trading the scales of african pangolins. hello, i�*m mark ashdown. well, it�*s a rivalry for the ages — australia versus england. both teams are hoping to make history by reaching the women�*s world cup finalfor the first time when they meet in sydney in just a few hours�* time. there�*s some friendly rivalry on the front pages this morning. the sun newspaper here in the uk calls on the lionesses to waltz past the matildas. meantime, sydney�*s daily telegraph has been rebranded the daily tillygraph and called the match—up "the smashes" — a cheeky nod to the cricket last month. we can speak now to former matilda tal karp. she joins us now from sydney.