women over 50, they're the fastest growing part of the workforce, but the taboo around talking about the menopause still hangs over us. today we have an entire show looking at the menopause, its impact on women and the workplace. and we look at how companies are selling to the so—called menopause market. i'm going to be discussing all of that with these two, there they are, a leading doctor in this field and a uk government menopause champion tells me what companies need to do to stop women leaving theirjobs when those symptoms hit. plus, the multi—billion dollar menopause industry. i'm going to be speaking to a specialist about how companies can tap into this massive global consumer group and to the health shop chain holland and barrett, who have been leading the charge to change perceptions and make those menopause megabucks. wherever you'rejoining me from around the world, once again, a big hello and a warm welcome to the show. you know, it's quite shocking to realise that here in the uk, nearly one in ten women who experience menopause symptoms leave theirjobs because of them and a quarter consider quitting. the menopause is also being seen as one possible reason why women hold fewer of the top jobs than men. menopause, it tends to happen when a woman is between 45 and 55, but it can happen even earlier. it will impact different women in different ways and there are dozens of different symptoms. and some women may not experience any of them at all. but among those symptoms are things like increased anxiety, difficulty sleeping, mood swings, brain fog and hot flushes. things that can obviously impact on someone�*s confidence, especially when they might be in a race for a top job. plus, we are living longer. so globally, the menopause will impact more women. according to the who, the world health organization, in 2021, over a quarter of all women in the world were in their fifties. in the united states, it's estimated 6,000 women hit the menopause every day and menopause age women account for nearly a third of that entire american workforce. and the global value of goods and services aimed at the market has been estimated at nearly $17 billion. and that's a number that's growing. but before we get to the workplace and the commercial side of the menopause, let's talk to a leading doctor who specialises in this field and campaigns for better care of women experiencing symptoms. she's also the founder of the balanced website and app, which has a host of medical information available for free to anyone who wants to know more. dr louise newson, a real pleasure having you on the show. and louise, can wejust start with this? what is the menopause and does it impact women differently? if you break down the word menopause, meno is menstrual cycle, so women's periods pause is stop. what's really weird about it is it actually for medical definition, you have to be a year without your period. there's nothing else in medicine that i have to wait a year before making a diagnosis. what it means is that a woman's ovaries aren't working. they're either because we've got older and they stop working because we run out of eggs. the hormones associated with egg production decline or women might have their ovaries removed for an operation, for example. the loss of hormones or the reduction in hormone levels can cause to symptoms because these hormones, oestrogen, testosterone, progesterone affect every single cell in our body. so many women experience symptoms which can last for a few months or a few years. well, you mentioned symptoms, louisa. just what sort of symptoms are we talking about? it really varies. so a lot of women get symptoms before they become menopausal. so in the perimenopause, which is the time leading up to the menopause, where our hormones start to decline, often in quite a chaotic way, actually, for many years we've always talked about the hot flushes and night sweats. they can be troublesome for many women, but the main symptoms are brain fog, memory problems, anxiety, fatigue, reduced libido, muscle and joint pains, headaches. and it's no surprise because the hormones are really powerful in our brains. and louise, is it a case that some women just won't even notice it? yeah, there are some women who say, you know what, iflew through the menopause, not a problem, didn't have any symptoms. but then often when you ask them directly, do you have as much energy as you used to have? are you sleeping well? have you had any urinary tract infections? do you feel as joyful as you used to or any muscle orjoint pains? and often people go, yeah, but now i'm late, fifties or 60. and often people go, "yeah, but now i'm late, fifties or 60." "of course i'm going to feel like that." so not everyone has symptoms, but whether a woman has symptoms or not, they still have low hormones and low oestrogen in the body causes inflammation in the body. with low grade inflammation, there's an increased risk of diseases. and this is where i worry as a physician. and louise, as you know, i mean, we're seeing a lot of products and services now being advertised. it's a multi—billion dollar industry. is that a positive step? no, i really worry about it. so, i mean, i don't work with any of these companies at all and i don't do any paid work with pharma just for complete transparency. i read somewhere the other day that it's $120 billion a year is spent on menopause related products. but, you know, if i was a sassy businessperson thinking, well, it's 1.2 billion women worldwide are menopausal, how are we going to get them to buy some supplements orface cream or shampoo? and actually, when i was struggling and was unable to receive treatment from the nhs, i would have spent a lot of money on anything to help me because it would have been cheaper than a divorce, if it meant that i could keep myjob and my income. you know, people are very desperate to feel better. the advertising on some of these products is great. they also try and push people away from hrt. and it's really worries me because there's no evidence, certainly, that a lot of the supplements will really make a difference. they're not going to improve future health as well. and the money that's being spent on this is just awful, actually. well, on that point, dr louise newson, a real pleasure. thanks forjoining me and i'll talk to you soon. and if you're after more medical information about the menopause and its symptoms, you can find dr newson�*s website at... and the uk's nhs has a tonne of material as well on its site. you know, the impact of menopause symptoms can be so severe that, as we've said, women leave their job totally. one report found that almost one in every ten women who worked during their menopause left because of the symptoms. so i sat down with the woman who's been appointed by the uk government as the first menopause employment champion. she's also the head of talent at the recruitment company adecco. helen tomlinson, a real pleasure having you on my show. thanks for your time. and helen, let me start with this, because i'm just wondering what kind of attitudes to the menopause are women here in the uk experiencing in the workplace? i think it's really mixed. it's a really good question. so it's really about education, allyship and cultural change in an organisation. so having as an example, having a policy is a really good starting point. so having a menopause policy is a great thing, but it's absolutely not the be all and end all or the holy grail, because ultimately a policy is at best a pdf that goes in a file that if somebody needed to access it, it means that they're not having a good experience. so it's what you do when you launch the policy. that's what creates a cultural change in an organisation. and helen, it's been said that the menopause could be, could be one of the reasons or part of the reason that we see fewer women in ceo roles or on boards. i mean, they're at an age where their skill set and all this vast experience and then boom, all of a sudden they get hit with, not all, but get hit with the menopause symptoms. so the average age of a woman going into menopause is 51, the average age of perimenopause, which is really important to note, because actually a lot of the symptoms come with perimenopause. the average age of that is a1. so if you look at the average age of a woman going into a leadership role in a ftse 500, that is about 51 as well. so it's almost a perfect storm that you're probably going into the most important role of your career at that very moment when you're starting to experience perimenopause or menopause and overlay that with we're having children arguably later in life, so you're probably still looking after children, you could be looking after ageing parents. if you put all that together and then you look at the psychological impact of menopause, which is often the key trigger for a woman in a leadership role, feeling that they need to step away or step down. and it's little wonder that there are less and less women in leadership roles. obviously, it's notjust women at executive levels. i mean, what women go through, whether they have the symptoms or not. you're absolutely right. it's not just about women in leadership roles. it's incredibly important that women in all sectors, in all types ofjobs and from different race ethnicities and socio—economic demographics are supported. helen, what would be the best advice to teams and colleagues who are working alongside someone going through the symptoms? so i think the first first thing is around education. so i think the first thing is around education. so really understanding what it is, what the symptoms can be, what the experience can be like. and the second piece of it is around the allyship piece. so often in a working environment, there is little that people can do to support you. if you've "got to come into the office, you've got to come into the office." sometimes it's about the understanding that that could be a really challenging experience for somebody. so there are practical aspects to it. there are things that employers can do to support women with reasonable adjustments, but often it's just about being heard, being understood. but helen, you know, let's be frank, because this is a subject, up until now, that's always been seen as very sensitive right now, involving ageism and sexism. and some will say it's an absolute minefield for an employer. so then what would your, i guess, what would your advice be on how to deal with that? so i think it comes back to, you know, having some sort of training, make sure there is a common understanding right across the organisation. and then out of that, when you've done the education, created the common understanding, you need to create a safe space to talk. because i'm also just wondering, you know, and i've learned since doing this show that, you know, some women can go through menopause with nothing, no symptoms, and then they could be the ones are going, "well, what's all the fuss about?" and 25% of women have absolutely no symptoms at all. 50% have some symptoms, but 25% have really debilitating symptoms. so 75% experience it in some way. 25% don't really. but there are still the other things happening. so the reduction in oestrogen, whether you experienced symptoms or not. and helen, when it comes to the resistance of talking of the menopause, where is that resistance coming? does it come from men or women? interesting question. it could be a controversial answer because in some parts, probably a couple of years ago, there was some resistance from women because it was perceived as being ageing, putting an age on you, simplifying somebody�*s career because they were saying, you know, arguably this is the age that i'm at. but that was tied into the thought process around, oh, losing my confidence, my career�*s over. whereas actually we're now talking about post—menopause and how that can be the best 15 years of your career if you're with the right employer. but men can be some of the best allies, without a doubt. they really can be very supportive. and theyjust want to know more so they can be better allies. but they also want to learn in a safe space because they're worried about saying the wrong thing. and helen, let me end on this. it's a conversation that's finally been spoken about, but i am kind of wondering, where do you think the conversation, the discussion will be in, let's say, five years�* time? my hope is in five years�* time that we're not actually sitting having this conversation because it is literally part and parcel of a woman's health throughout her career. so i hope that i can almost put myself out of a role by having these conversations now so that we no longer have to have them in the future. and the workplace is a better place regardless of the job that you're doing forfor women, although all over doing for for women, all over the uk and ireland. helen tomlinson, a real pleasure. thank you so much. good luck with everything and i'd love to talk to you again soon. so, so far in the show, we've looked at how menopause symptoms are impacting on women's health and in the workplace. but, you know, the global market for products related to the menopause and its symptoms is estimated to stand at almost $17 billion. and that number is growing every year. so my next guest, she's a pioneer at researching and working with brands to sell products to women experiencing symptoms. sam simister, thank you so much forjoining me. and let's start with this, sam, because your company works with big uk brands like boots, the pharmaceutical giant plus marks and spencer. what kind of advice are you giving companies about reaching menopause age women? that's a great question, aaron. thank you. so, gen m, the menopause partner of brands, exists to help brands understand this audience better and to support them, to empower them, to inspire them to better support through improved products, services, better education, awareness, etc. i think the other important thing to say is that everything that we do is underpinned by research. and the first report we commissioned, we called it the invisibility report back in 2020. and it was this data, aaron, that we believe really compelled and provided the catalyst for these businesses to come on board. a1% saying they felt lonely, invisible and dispensable, 88% saying they wanted absolutely more support from brands, and 90% saying theyjust felt overlooked by brands and society as a whole. you've come up with an m sign for products to, well, to indicate if a product can help with a menopause symptom. what kind of products are we talking about here? so we launched in february the tech we call it the m tic, so we launched in february, we call it the m tick, but it is effectively the world's first menopause—friendly symbol to signpost products that can support, ease or relieve one or more of the 48 symptoms or signs. and when you hit perimenopause, everything changes. your skin changes, your hair changes, your nails change. so it can be anything from the shampoo that you buy to the face creams that you use, through the mascara orfoundation that you choose to buy, the clothing that you need to wear to keep cool because you are more likely to be hotter. the bedding that you choose to ensure that you can have a better night's sleep to keep you cool. the list is so long it basically covers every sector because everything changes. it's called "the change" for a reason. is it catching on, sam? very much so. we launched it in february, at the end of february. so it's really early days. but i am very encouraged to tell you that within a very short space of time we've got over a0 brands now deploying the m tick and by october we will have very close to 600 products deploying the m tick also. so we go through the process, we ensure that integrity is intact, but these brands in the collective are really embracing it because they have the insight and they are trusting in that data. your report found women saying that they dealt with things like crippling anxiety. i'm wondering, sam, are companies in this space taking advantage of people who are who are suffering and then selling things to them, which may not be that useful, like food supplements and creams and even lipsticks? i think the first thing to say on that is that everybody�*s menopause is going to be different. it is about choice and control. so it is incredibly hard to say whether one product works for you or whether it won't. you really do need that choice and control. and i come back to the importance around integrity. that is why with our symbol, it has governance and integrity associated with it, so that products that do deploy the m tick have followed a process and they have the data that then supports that they are worthy of carrying that m tick. i think like all situations, a degree of regulation and integrity is required. but sam, i have to say this and you'll know it. some doctors will say that women dealing with menopause treatment are best served getting medical advice rather than, you know, skin creams or lipsticks or food supplements. the questions out there and it's got to be asked, do you think some companies are trading on the very insecurities that some women become prone to as they go through the menopause? yeah, i think that's a very, very good point you raise. i'll come back to our research because we know from the data that we have that the majority of women, yes, if they can seek medical support, they absolutely do. and they should, we definitely encourage that, of course. but where they can't, and there are some challenges at the moment with access to medical support, women we know are self diagnosing. there is an increase in the use of apps, there is an increase in the thirst for information over the internet. and that's why brands have a responsibility, in our view, to do more, to educate and to provide that support. sam, are companies looking at expanding into this area? i really would hope that they are, because if they don't, they are going to miss out. this is a very discerning population. the midlife woman, according to forbes, we're super consumers. we control the majority of the household spend and we have money to spend. we also, one of the lovely things about getting a bit older, we also know what we want. we are tired of feeling underserved and overlooked. so those of us that are engaged with this topic will seek out those brands that are listening to us, that are representing us authentically with their marketing. and they are seeing us and they are providing the solutions with great signposting that we are looking for. sam simister, thank you so much. a real pleasure having you on the show. thanks for your time and we'll talk to you soon. thank you so much for having me. 0ne company which has invested millions into the menopause market is the uk based health shop chain holland and barrett. it's trained thousands of its staff to recognise and advise customers on menopause symptoms. so what are the lessons they've learned? lena chan, a real pleasure having you on the show. and lena, your company, holland and barrett have been in this space for a while now. what have you learned about helping women in this age group? i think we've seen a lot of change, especially in the last couple of years. women being a lot more comfortable talking about menopause, even though it still is a topic that's very much shrouded in taboo. but i think i'd say that there are two key things that we've seen come up a lot. one, which is if we really want to be reaching menopause equity, we need to include the voice of communities. i think a lot of the menopause solutions now, our customers are telling us that it talks a lot about the symptoms that white women or their white counterparts might be experiencing. but we need to do a lot more in terms of how do we address some of the symptoms that potentially black women, asian and other ethnic minorities are facing. and the second one is that it's really important that we recognise that menopause is a life stage and it's not a disease. i think there's a lot of narrative around menopause that pins it as a disease, but really it's a life stage and the more we can actually start normalising conversations of menopause, it's more likely that women will come up to us and ask for support, because if they keep thinking that they're suffering alone, then it's already the first barrier to getting to getting support. and really, every menopause is very unique. you've recently invested millions to reach women here in england who speak other languages like hindu and urdu. lina, is this is this part of that trying to reach as many lina, is this part of that trying to reach as many communities as possible? i think one of the key things that we saw, the statistics are really are really stark. one in two women felt that they weren't part of the conversation in a lot of the minority groups and that percentage went up to 75% in black and afro—caribbean communities. so can you imagine if you don't feel like you're part of that dialogue? and that's exactly what we did, we've translated a lot of the menopause education content into four different south asian languages. we're working with a leading charity called wellbeing of women in a new women's health community fund to fund people who we think are real change—makers in their community. we know we can't reach everybody over the course of a couple of days or even months. but if we can empower them, we can really work as a catalyst to try to get the care that people need in the way that they need in these communities. and you've trained staff in your stores to to look for menopausal symptoms. i mean, what kind of symptoms are we talking about? so we've educated, like you said, about 4,000 of our staff, and they can talk to customers that come in. they can help you piece together, because the average is that every woman that is going through perimenopause and menopause will display about six to seven symptoms. and it's piecing all of that together and signposting them to say, actually, perhaps you are in perimenopausal menopause and these are some of the resources that you have there. lena, i have to ask you this. the range of products that you stock is quite extensive and some of it very expensive. for example, collagen supplements which can go for around £50, or 60 usd, for a 14—day treatment. is that what women need? i mean, isn't hormone replacement, you know, hrt, isn't that going to be more effective? i think women need a holistic approach to their health, so it's not a one pill fix all. i think it's really kind of trying to look at everything as complementary. so there's always a role for hrt. hrt is very important, but not every woman can take hrt or wants to take hrt, especially in the early stages of menopause. we've done actually a research across our customers and especially those during perimenopause, about 70% of them said that they didn't want to take hrt, yet, they wanted to look at lifestyle nutrition. so, lena, do your staff tell customers to go to a doctor so, lina, do your staff tell customers to to go to a doctor or to buy food supplements? i mean, we need to have a holistic conversation with our with our customers. so they will definitely signpost people. and we actually have in partnership with the menopause mandate, a menopause nurses hotline. so if anybody presents themselves that we think that they should be signposted to somebody with a bit more of a medical background, they will have access for free to our menopause nurses hotline, who can then advise on seeking specialist support or gp support. lina, you operate in lots of countries, notjust here in the uk. how do attitudes to the menopause differ? part of this research that we've done looking at communities is a big example of that. i mean, in some cultures you don't even have the word for menopause. so you can imagine if some women don't even know how to advocate for themselves or refer to that life stage, it's really, really hard. while there are other cultures like some east asian cultures that really look up to that life stage, because when you've gone through menopause, you've lived a long life, you're full of knowledge. and a lot of women in those cultures have a much easier menopause transition. so a lot of cultures and countries deal with the menopause very, very differently. lina chen, thank you so much for your time. a pleasure having you and i'll check in with you soon. thank you so much, aaron, for having me on the show. well, that's it for this week. i hope you enjoyed the show. don't forget, you can keep up with the latest on our global economy on the bbc website or the smartphone app. of course, you can also follow me on x. x me. i'll x you back. you can get me @bbcaaron. thanks for watching. i'll see you soon. bye— bye. hello. it's been a very showery weather picture already for northern and western parts this morning and showers with blustery winds are the forecast for this weekend. fewest showers in the south and east, but, even here, not altogether dry. that's because the south—east is furthest away from the low pressure that's anchored itself to the north—west of scotland for the weekend. so throwing in showers, longer spells of rain. we've had some really quite wet weather through the morning across parts of scotland, northern england, wales. that band will fragment to become showers, but the showers are really pretty heavy. now, it may be that the northern isles escape most of the showers through the day, stay bright, but there will be scattered showers just about anywhere across scotland, just heaviest, most frequent in the north and the west. temperatures a degree or two down on those of yesterday. similarily across northern ireland. those brisk winds around southern and western coasts, as well, pushing the showers into central and eastern parts of england, where the day started largely dry and quite sunny. so, as i say, fewer showers in southern and eastern areas, but they will continue into the evening and overnight, along with that brisk wind. so it's going to be a mild night. it might not be, however, as humid as last night because we've taken that humidity and moved it away further east. so a little bit more comfortable for sleeping. then we start sunday morning. it's spot the difference. we do it all over again. that low pressure still anchored to the north—west of the uk, so it's here where we will see the lengthiest spells of rain and the more frequent showers. but the showers elsewhere could certainly be heavy again — it is august, after all, there's plenty of strength in the sunshine to send those big shower clouds up into the atmosphere. the odd rumble of thunder again. but some places seeing some decent spells of warm august sunshine and even the odd place staying dry. we do have more rain to come in through the evening and overnight. again, ii looks like this time it will be wales, again, it looks like this time it will be wales, southern and central england seeing the more persistent rain on monday with the showers further north. either way, it's looking unsettled once again. then, as we head beyond monday, there's just the chance, the hint, that high pressure will build, so moving low pressure away from our shores in the east and keeping those coming in from the atlantic bay. drawing up a southerly wind for a time, so some warmth as well as some drier weather. it's a long way off and it's exactly how long that lasts, but, at the moment, the hint of something a little drier into next week. live from london, this is bbc news. australia have done it — the matildas beat france after an incredible 20—goal penalty shoot—out to reach the world cup semifinals. they will face either england or colombia, depending who wins that match. the number killed in the hawaii wildfires has risen to 80 — making it the deadliest natural disaster in the state's history. the attorney general has launched an investigation into the way it was first handled. a migrant boat has sunk in the english channel. the french authorities say six people have died. in the women's world cup, england's quarterfinal game against colombia is under way in sydney. the teams are level at 0—0 after the first 30 minutes. ella toone replaces suspended laurenjames in england's line—up. the winner will play australia in the last four after a dramatic win over france on penalties. let's speak to our correspondent shaimaa khalil, who's outside a fan zone in sydney.

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