Transcripts For BBCNEWS Nicky 20240704

Government . Tough immigration, tough Migration Policies are divisive as a whole amongst you. But crucial amongst many crucial swing voters which is crucial many of you on the doorsteps and focus groups, problem, big issue, big stakes for the prime minister, i will ask you again, what do we do about the boats . Please get in touch . Now it is time for the news for karishma patel. Thank you. Junior doctors in england have started a four day strike in their long running dispute over pay. Nhs leaders say the action will cause significant disruption to patients. Figures published this morning will show the number of migrants detained in the uk after crossing the channel in small boats has passed 100,000. The number has only been counted officially since january 2018. The uk economy has grown despite expected stagnation. Official figures show it grew by 0. 2 between april and june. The chancellor, jeremy hunt, said the governments plan was starting to take effect, but labour said growth was still on the floor. The governor of hawaii has warned that the number of People Killed in wildfires on the Island Of Maui will go up. Fifty three are currently known to have died. Josh green said the destruction was heartbreaking and catastrophic. A Trigger Warning as they call it, you will hear people that you disagree with and you will hear people whose views you perhaps will find disagreeable, it is myjob to facilitate them, to encourage you to talk and perhaps encourage you to talk and perhaps encourage you to talk to each other . and where there is discord maybe find harmony, we will see basically, the government within have conceded that they are hamstrung at the moment on making further process on tackling the crossings until the outcome of the Supreme Court ruling on whether the Rwanda Policy is lawful. In the Times Newspaper today it is reported conservative mps believe resurrecting the policy of the former home secretary priti patel which planned to use border force jet skis to intercept and redirect dinghies carrying migrants into british waters, redirect them back towards french territorial waters, where is this in your list of priorities . When it comes to the health service, education, interest rates, mortgages, Building Houses . Certainly the conservative see it is very important for the crucial swing voters. It may be all about survival for rishi sunak because the Opinion Polls at the moment are not looking great for the tories. Tommy smiths former head of border welcome back. Robinjenkins, former rnli volunteer for 20 plus years, founder of the International Bird rescue Charity Atlantic pacific. Robin, what do you think about the rhetoric around this and the political weight that is put upon it . Good morning to you. Good morninu. Upon it . Good morning to you. Good morning i upon it . Good morning to you. Good morning i find upon it . Good morning to you. Good morning. I find it upon it . Good morning to you. Good morning. I find it very upon it . Good morning to you. emf. Morning. I find it very disturbing. Ifind it very morning. I find it very disturbing. I find it very disappointing that the language that we used to describe our fellow human beings who are desperately looking for safety and security are treated like others or that they are not worthy of our help or worthy of our support. I think we need to be more empathetic about peoples issues and the reasons and the rationale of why they are putting themselves in such danger to find some form of safety. Can you highlight an example of a lack of empathy . I can you highlight an example of a lack of empathy . Can you highlight an example of a lack of empathy . I think the strap line the conservative lack of empathy . I think the strap line the conservative party lack of empathy . I think the strap line the conservative party is lack of empathy . I think the strap| line the conservative party is using stop the boats as a single line does not address anything to do with the actual plight. Its not address anything to do with the actual plight actual plight. Its breaking the business actual plight. Its breaking the Business Model actual plight. Its breaking the Business Model of actual plight. Its breaking the Business Model of the actual plight. Its breaking the Business Model of the people. Business model of the people smugglers though, isnt it . There are other ways smugglers though, isnt it . There are other ways to smugglers though, isnt it . There are other ways to do smugglers though, isnt it . There are other ways to do it. Smugglers though, isnt it . There are other ways to do it. Of smugglers though, isnt it . There are other ways to do it. Of course j are other ways to do it. Of course the criminal gangs and the traffickers doing this work are despicable people who are exploiting people who are extremely vulnerable. The best way to take the wind from their cells is to create safe passage and a more legitimate way for people to find asylum. Tow; for people to find asylum. Tony smith, what for people to find asylum. Tony smith, what you for people to find asylum. Tony smith, what you say, for people to find asylum. Tony smith, what you say, create i for people to find asylum. Tony smith, what you say, create safe passage as a way of breaking the criminal Business Model and address the rhetoric which robinjenkins sees as incendiary and lacking in empathy . I sees as incendiary and lacking in emath . ,. ,. , empathy . I do agree some of the rhetoric we empathy . I do agree some of the rhetoric we have empathy . I do agree some of the rhetoric we have seen empathy . I do agree some of the rhetoric we have seen this empathy . I do agree some of the rhetoric we have seen this week | empathy . I do agree some of the i rhetoric we have seen this week has been rhetoric we have seen this week has been unfortunate, ive worked in borders been unfortunate, ive worked in borders and immigration All Of My Life and borders and immigration All Of My Life and worked in the home office for 30 life and worked in the home office for 30 years in this area, its politically for 30 years in this area, its politically toxic and always has been politically toxic and always has been we politically toxic and always has been. We need to be careful in our language been. We need to be careful in our language and how we debate the issues language and how we debate the issues because we are seeing increased issues because we are seeing increased polarity from both sides, as youd increased polarity from both sides, as youd expect, having worked in the border as youd expect, having worked in The Border Force for all of that time, The Border Force for all of that time, i The Border Force for all of that time, i think its right we should decide time, i think its right we should decide who gets to come to this country~ decide who gets to come to this country. Who should be invited through country. Who should be invited through legal rights, through visas etc. Through legal rights, through visas etc the through legal rights, through visas etc. The boats is really a very visible, etc. The boats is really a very visible, i etc. The boats is really a very visible, i think, etc. The boats is really a very visible, ithink, a etc. The boats is really a very visible, i think, a very visible issue visible, i think, a very visible issue for visible, i think, a very visible issue for the british people because we have issue for the british people because we have always had illegal into this country. We have always had illegal into this country, thats been going on for a lon country, thats been going on for a long time country, thats been going on for a long time but it has been going on behind the scenes, people three lorries behind the scenes, people three lorries in behind the scenes, people three lorries in border ports, we have been lorries in border ports, we have been apprehending them and dealing with them. But its visible now, people with them. But its visible now, pebble are with them. But its visible now, people are questioning why this is happening and why people are allowed to cross happening and why people are allowed to cross into our waters uninvited . And to to cross into our waters uninvited . And to stay . To cross into our waters uninvited . And to stay . And if thats going to continue. And to stay . And if thats going to continue, how long will this go on for and continue, how long will this go on for and how continue, how long will this go on for and how many more will come and ithink for and how many more will come and i think what for and how many more will come and i think what people really want to see is i think what people really want to see is what this government was elected see is what this government was elected to see is what this government was elected to do which was to take back control elected to do which was to take back control over elected to do which was to take back control over this. You could have a legal control over this. You could have a legal right control over this. You could have a legal right of some sort, theyve talked legal right of some sort, theyve talked about doing that but my worry is exactly talked about doing that but my worry is exactly how and where would that work, is exactly how and where would that work. If is exactly how and where would that work, if were going to open up centres work, if were going to open up centres in work, if were going to open up centres in cali to process people, think centres in cali to process people, think more centres in cali to process people, think more and more migrants. Huge number think more and more migrants. Huge number of think more and more migrants. Huge number of Illegal Migrants already in the number of Illegal Migrants already in the Schengen Zone would block towards in the Schengen Zone would block towards Northern French and i do not think the towards Northern French and i do not think the french would welcome that. Disappointed applicants will probably come out of there and still take to probably come out of there and still take to the probably come out of there and still take to the boats in the smugglers be waiting. Thats not going to work in itself be waiting. Thats not going to work in itself i be waiting. Thats not going to work in itself. I think we need to talk to the in itself. I think we need to talk to the European Union about a european to the European Union about a european Asylum System, what the deal would be in terms of us taking some deal would be in terms of us taking some people through legal roots, in return some people through legal roots, in return for some people through legal roots, in return for a some people through legal roots, in return for a safer Country Agreement with the return for a safer Country Agreement with the french but we would need i think clear with the french but we would need i think clear guarantees that a third country think clear guarantees that a third Country Agreement would hold water and we Country Agreement would hold water and we would not end up with an own oal and we would not end up with an own goal and and we would not end up with an own goal and taking a lot more people than we goal and taking a lot more people than we are already taking. Interesting, professor sirjohn curtice, the legendary psychologist and Polling Expert says this is a visible failure and you to it, tony. Here of brexit which was all about taking back control. And people are seeing it not happening and not working . Seeing it not happening and not workin . � ~. , working . And i think we need to put the numbers working . And i think we need to put the numbers in working . And i think we need to put the numbers in perspective, working . And i think we need to put| the numbers in perspective, 45,000 last year the numbers in perspective, 45,000 last year on the numbers in perspective, 45,000 last year on the boats, everyone is making last year on the boats, everyone is making noise about 100,000 Milestone Today or making noise about 100,000 Milestone Today or yesterday but that is over five years today or yesterday but that is over five years. 45,000 on the boats, 75,000 five years. 45,000 on the boats, 75,000 was five years. 45,000 on the boats, 75,000 was the Asylum Intake last year. 75,000 was the Asylum Intake last year. The 75,000 was the Asylum Intake last year, the sixth highest in europe and they year, the sixth highest in europe and they are taking 2. 3 million on the us and they are taking 2. 3 million on the us border so it is a global issue the us border so it is a global issue. Rememberthe government, the leal issue. Rememberthe government, the iegai figure issue. Rememberthe government, the legal figure for lawful rights has gone legal figure for lawful rights has gone above 600,000 now. Admittedly some of gone above 600,000 now. Admittedly some of that was from ukraine and hong some of that was from ukraine and hong kong some of that was from ukraine and hong kong and good causes to bring people hong kong and good causes to bring people here but its very high for a government that controls legal migration. The illegal component is around migration. The illegal component is around one migration. The illegal component is around one tenth of that so its important around one tenth of that so its important for me talk about this we keep the important for me talk about this we keep the figures in perspective and talk about keep the figures in perspective and talk about illegal migration but also illegal migration and fight the policy also illegal migration and fight the policy and whether the policy is Working Policy and whether the policy is workinu. � , , policy and whether the policy is workinu. H , , working. Lets remember these people are not illegal working. Lets remember these people are not Illegal Migrants, working. Lets remember these people are not Illegal Migrants, it working. Lets remember these people are not Illegal Migrants, it is working. Lets remember these people are not Illegal Migrants, it is the are not Illegal Migrants, it is the migration itself and these people, many of them, human beings, have perfectly legitimate claims to asylum. There is a massive backlog there which may may well address, we just had and the thing being pushed by some conservative mps to leave the European Convention on human rights, interesting quote from President Of The Law Society he says leaving the echr would mean the uk sets is an outlier in europe alongside only russia and belarus. So, highly contentious. Robin, i will let you speak to simon in bournemouth and patricia in bodmin. Hello to both of you this friday morning hello to both of you this friday mornina ,. ,. , hello to both of you this friday mornina ,. ,. , hello to both of you this fridayl morning robin, hello to both of you this friday morning robin, please morning good morning. Robin, please seak to morning good morning. Robin, please speak to patricia morning good morning. Robin, please speak to patricia because morning good morning. Robin, please speak to patricia because patricia, speak to patricia because patricia, i think that you think we should be hard on this . You i think that you think we should be hard on this . I think that you think we should be hard on this . You want my opinion . Richt. Hard on this . You want my opinion . Riht. It is hard on this . You want my opinion . Right it is very hard on this . You want my opinion . Right. It is very tough hard on this . You want my opinion . Right. It is very tough and hard on this . You want my opinion . Right. It is very tough and i hard on this . You want my opinion . Right. It is very tough and i am right. It is very tough and i am sorry right. It is very tough and i am sorry there right. It is very tough and i am sorry there will right. It is very tough and i am sorry there will be right. It is very tough and i am sorry there will be some right. It is very tough and i am i sorry there will be some deaths, i truly sorry there will be some deaths, i truly am sorry there will be some deaths, i truly am sorry sorry there will be some deaths, i truly am sorry but sorry there will be some deaths, i truly am sorry but we sorry there will be some deaths, i truly am sorry but we should sorry there will be some deaths, i truly am sorry but we should not. Sorry there will be some deaths, i. Truly am sorry but we should not let them truly am sorry but we should not let them land truly am sorry but we should not let them land im truly am sorry but we should not let them land. � ,. , truly am sorry but we should not let them land. � ,. , them land. Im sorry, what did you sa . We them land. Im sorry, what did you say . We should them land. Im sorry, what did you say . We should not them land. Im sorry, what did you say . We should not let them land. Im sorry, what did you say . We should not let the them land. Im sorry, what did you say . We should not let the boats l say . We should not let the boats land,. No. Say . We should not let the boats land,. No, the say . We should not let the boats land,. No, the bit say . We should not let the boats land,. No, the bit before. Say . We should not let the boats land,. No, the bit before. I say . We should not let the boats land,. No, the bit before. I am| land,. No, the bit before. I am truly sorry land,. No, the bit before. I am truly sorry about land,. No, the bit before. I am truly sorry about the land,. No, the bit before. I am truly sorry about the deaths, land,. No, the bit before. I am l truly sorry about the deaths, there will be truly sorry about the deaths, there will be some truly sorry about the deaths, there will be some deaths truly sorry about the deaths, there will be some deaths but truly sorry about the deaths, there will be some deaths but they. Will be some deaths but they. Coming will be some deaths but they. Coming. Robin, will be some deaths but they. Coming. Robin, i will be some deaths but they. Coming. Robin, iwill will be some deaths but they. Coming. Robin, i will let will be some deaths but they. Coming. Robin, i will let you i will be some deaths but they. Coming. Robin, i will let you take this up. Coming. Robin, i will let you take this u. , coming. Robin, i will let you take this u. ,. ,. , this up. There is no evidence to su est this up. There is no evidence to suggest prevention this up. There is no evidence to suggest prevention of this up. There is no evidence to suggest prevention of boats this up. There is no evidence to suggest prevention of Boats Landing would stop or deter them from coming. As we have seen in the mediterranean, the kind of policy in Southern Europe now is to refuse entry to ngo vessels must rescue people on board. And that has not had any impact really on the action of doing it. I think you need to remember these people are desperate. These people are putting themselves in harms way like you could not imagine. I think another thing people have to remember is the idea of home, what does home mean to you, what is your home . For me it is security, safety, where my family and friends are and to leave home is terrifying and to leave all of my possessions and belongings and my money, all of these things and flee to find safety. The kind of threat, the level of threat that will make you leave your home a substantial if you leave your home a substantial if you are willing to put yourself in very, very precarious places. And very, very precarious places. And they were very, very precarious places. And they were all very, very precarious places. And they were all those deaths recently, when there, off the coast of greece . Surmount any fear of losing their lives. Patricia, please stay there, i want to know how important it is to you, simon, but i think i heard you in the background. What to you, simon, but i think heard you in the background. What would ou like to you in the background. What would you like to say . You in the background. What would you like to say . Your you in the background. What would you like to say . Your previous you like to say . Your previous caller you like to say . Your previous caller saying about turning the boats caller saying about turning the boats back, that is not going to solve boats back, that is not going to solve anything at all. What we need to do. Solve anything at all. What we need to do. This solve anything at all. What we need to do, this home secretary. Paid france to do, this home secretary. Paid france x to do, this home secretary. Paid france x number of millions of bounds. France x number of millions of pounds, we will work with france, etc. Pounds, we will work with france, etc we pounds, we will work with france, etc. We kept hearing about this for months etc. We kept hearing about this for months and months. We heard i think it was months and months. We heard i think it was earlier months and months. We heard i think it was earlier this week, the number of boats it was earlier this week, the number of boats crossing the channel has decreased, we are winning hang on a minute, decreased, we are winning hang on a minute, yesterday, i do not know the official minute, yesterday, i do not know the official number that crossed the channel official number that crossed the channel yesterday. This government need channel yesterday. This government need to channel yesterday. This government need to get channel yesterday. This government need to get their act together. We have got need to get their act together. We have got 170,000 refugees, probably, i have got 170,000 refugees, probably, idont have got 170,000 refugees, probably, idont know have got 170,000 refugees, probably, i dont know what the percentage is that have i dont know what the percentage is that have a i dont know what the percentage is that have a right to be here, seeking that have a right to be here, seeking asylum so lets process them, seeking asylum so lets process them, help them, lets get them into work in them, help them, lets get them into work in the them, help them, lets get them into work in the nhs for we are crying out for work in the nhs for we are crying out for Foreign Workers all we seem to do out for Foreign Workers all we seem to do in out for Foreign Workers all we seem to do in this out for Foreign Workers all we seem to do in this country as we do a uturn to do in this country as we do a uturn that to do in this country as we do a u turn. That is not working, we will et u turn. That is not working, we will get a u turn. That is not working, we will get a barge u turn. That is not working, we will get a barge in portland, 40 miles away get a barge in portland, 40 miles away from get a barge in portland, 40 miles away from me i mean, the government have but away from me i mean, the government have but a away from me i mean, the government have put a doctor on the barge, an nhs dentist, people in portland and weymouth cannot even get a Blinking Gp Appointment for six weeks and this is Gp Appointment for six weeks and this is what get peoples backs up. They have this is what get peoples backs up. They have a this is what get peoples backs up. They have a right to be here, they need they have a right to be here, they need to they have a right to be here, they need to be they have a right to be here, they need to be processed notjust keep saying need to be processed notjust keep saying well, well remove them from a hotel. Saying well, well remove them from a hotel, that will say £6 million per day, a hotel, that will say £6 million per day, we need action not words it is per day, we need action not words it is 0k. Per day, we need action not words it is ok, were coming up to the election. It is ok, were coming up to the election, this government seems to ust election, this government seems to just tell election, this government seems to just tell people what they want to hear, just tell people what they want to hear. That just tell people what they want to hear, that will be all right, that will sort hear, that will be all right, that will sort them the blow. We need to help these will sort them the blow. We need to help these people. We will sort them the blow. We need to help these people. Will sort them the blow. We need to help these people. We need to have these people help these people. We need to have these people but help these people. We need to have these people but the help these people. We need to have these people but the question help these people. We need to have these people but the question is these people but the question is whether its political or practical or windowdressing. Whether its down to the policies. It is windowdressing to the policies. It is i windowdressing because to the policies. It is windowdressing because we to the policies. It is windowdressing because we keep doing a uturn windowdressing because we keep doing a u turn. Let windowdressing because we keep doing a uturn. , ~. ,. ,. , a uturn. Let me talk to patricia. Patricia, a uturn. Let me talk to patricia. Patricia. How a uturn. Let me talk to patricia. Patricia, how important a uturn. Let me talk to patricia. Patricia, how important is a uturn. Let me talk to patricia. Patricia, how important is this i a uturn. Let me talk to patricia. Patricia, how important is this to | patricia, how important is this to you and to your friends, to those you and to your friends, to those you know in your list of priorities with so much going wrong in this country at the moment . I with so much going wrong in this country at the moment . I cannot help but aaree country at the moment . I cannot help but agree with country at the moment . I cannot help but agree with an country at the moment . I cannot help but agree with an awful country at the moment . I cannot help but agree with an awful lot country at the moment . I cannot help but agree with an awful lot of country at the moment . I cannot help but agree with an awful lot of what. But agree with an awful lot of what everybody but agree with an awful lot of what Everybody Else but agree with an awful lot of what Everybody Else is but agree with an awful lot of what Everybody Else is saying. But agree with an awful lot of what Everybody Else is saying. It but agree with an awful lot of what Everybody Else is saying. It is Everybody Else is saying. It is poiiticai Everybody Else is saying. It is political which Everybody Else is saying. It is political which is Everybody Else is saying. It is political which is wrong. Everybody else is saying. It is political which is wrong. But ij political which is wrong. But i still political which is wrong. But i still think political which is wrong. But i still think not political which is wrong. But i still think not as political which is wrong. But i still think not as high political which is wrong. But i. Still think not as high proportion of those still think not as high proportion of those people still think not as high proportion of those people do still think not as high proportion of those people do not still think not as high proportion of those people do not have still think not as high proportion of those people do not have a l still think not as high proportion. Of those people do not have a right to be of those people do not have a right to be here of those people do not have a right to be here and of those people do not have a right to be here. And to of those people do not have a right to be here. And to use of those people do not have a right to be here. And to use our of those people do not have a rightj to be here. And to use our services and to to be here. And to use our services and to costar to be here. And to use our services and to co star government to be here. And to use our services and to co star government and to be here. And to use our services and to co star government and us, j and to co star government and us, the taxpayers. And to co star government and us, the taxpayers. A and to co star government and us, the taxpayers, a lot and to co star government and us, the taxpayers, a lot of and to co star government and us, the taxpayers, a lot of money and to co star government and us, the taxpayers, a lot of money to i the taxpayers, a lot of money to heip the taxpayers, a lot of money to heip them the taxpayers, a lot of money to help them and the taxpayers, a lot of money to help them. And as the taxpayers, a lot of money to help them. And as he the taxpayers, a lot of money to help them. And as he says, the taxpayers, a lot of money to i help them. And as he says, people the taxpayers, a lot of money to help them. And as he says, people in portland help them. And as he says, people in portland that help them. And as he says, people in portland that cannot help them. And as he says, people in portland that cannot get help them. And as he says, people in portland that cannot get a help them. And as he says, people in portland that cannot get a gp portland that cannot get a Gp Appointment. Portland that cannot get a Gp Appointment, its portland that cannot get a Gp Appointment, its terrible. Portland that cannot get a Gp Appointment, its terrible. Theres issues about appointment, its terrible. Theres issues about the appointment, its terrible. Theres issues about the nhs appointment, its terrible. Theres issues about the nhs obviously. L issues about the nhs obviously. Couple of texts to you, listening to the show, cannot believe that the lady collar said, she wants us to turn the boats back if their art deaths, the lack of compassion is unbelievable. Cannot believe that i just hope that women say says another text. Just hope that women say says anothertext. Forgive just hope that women say says another text. Forgive me for reading this but i know, you know, you are fine with it. I cannot believe what ijust fine with it. I cannot believe what i just heard fine with it. I cannot believe what ijust heard the woman say. We are a country built on immigration, where is our compassion, build a bigger table not a higher bowl, that is anonymous. And everyone says i agree with her, do not let the men. Turn them away. Another one, i agree with patricia from bodmin. And campbell, stop your sanctimonious outrage, shock, patricia is bang on, that is from john. Please how dare you . whatever ~ ,. , ~ whatever mrs patricia. I think we are hearing whatever mrs patricia. I think we are hearing what whatever mrs patricia. I think we are hearing what is whatever mrs patricia. I think we are hearing what is happening. Are hearing what is happening. Peopie are hearing what is happening. People dare are hearing what is happening. People dare not are hearing what is happening. People dare not say are hearing what is happening. People dare not say what are hearing what is happening. People dare not say what i are hearing what is happening. | people dare not say what i said are hearing what is happening. People dare not say what i said but really people dare not say what i said but really they people dare not say what i said but really they agree people dare not say what i said but really they agree. People dare not say what i said but really they agree. Some do. What do ou auree, really they agree. Some do. What do you agree. Sidhu really they agree. Some do. What do you agree, sidhu in really they agree. Some do. What do you agree, sidhu in birmingham . Really they agree. Some do. What do | you agree, sidhu in birmingham . We are you agree, sidhu in birmingham . 7 are not as a country addressing the root of the problem of illegal immigration. If somebody crossed the channel and came to the country you are also, you get a five or 4 star accommodation, you are accommodated in a hotel and at the end, you get citizenship. But countries which have good and proper immigration, for example, the United Arab Emirates or qatar, they do not have these problems, they are rich. They do not have illegal immigration problems. The end of the country, illegally, you do not get a right to citizenship. If you enter the country illegally. So no one even tries to go there so we need to address the issue. There are so many illegal ways you can come to this country. Asylum system is going. Let me take that point. Tommy smith, former head of uk border force, as there are so many legal ways that you can come to this country . Yes. There are so many legal ways that you can come to this country . Yes, i mean, you can come to this country . Yes, i mean. None you can come to this country . Yes, i mean. None of you can come to this country . Yes, i mean, none of it you can come to this country . Yes, i mean, none of it is you can come to this country . Yes, i mean, none of it is online, you can come to this country . Yes, i mean, none of it is online, you you can come to this country . Yes, i mean, none of it is online, you can l mean, none of it is online, you can look mean, none of it is online, you can look it mean, none of it is online, you can look it up mean, none of it is online, you can look it up on mean, none of it is online, you can look it up on your golf, depending what look it up on your golf, depending what its look it up on your golf, depending what its for, whether you work your there what its for, whether you work your there is what its for, whether you work your there is a what its for, whether you work your there is a threshold to meet of a certain there is a threshold to meet of a certain salary, qualifications but there certain salary, qualifications but there are certain salary, qualifications but there are a certain salary, qualifications but there are a really good number of iegai there are a really good number of legal rights to come in the thresholds have got quite low, relatively. And thats because peopie relatively. And thats because people like you, so rightly, we dont people like you, so rightly, we dont need migrants to come and work dont need migrants to come and work it dont need migrants to come and work it is dont need migrants to come and work it is in dont need migrants to come and work. It is in the benefit of the uk to bring work. It is in the benefit of the uk to bring in work. It is in the benefit of the uk to bring in migrants lawfully. And as i to bring in migrants lawfully. And as i said. To bring in migrants lawfully. And as i said, that figure is above 600. 000 as i said, that figure is above 600,000 which in my experience is a record 600,000 which in my experience is a record number, i had never seen that in my record number, i had never seen that in my time record number, i had never seen that in my time in record number, i had never seen that in my time in a great many years. But the in my time in a great many years. But the counter to that sds point about but the counter to that sds point about illegal or i think the proper term, about illegal or i think the proper term, not about illegal or i think the proper term, not to offend anyone, is irregular term, not to offend anyone, is irregular migration, the people borders irregular migration, the people borders without a passport and actually borders without a passport and actually crossing a border. The argument actually crossing a border. The argument for it they do that is because argument for it they do that is because the global Asylum System is setup, because the global Asylum System is setup, you because the global Asylum System is setup, you need to be in the country that you setup, you need to be in the country that you are setup, you need to be in the country that you are seeking refuge in in order that you are seeking refuge in in order to that you are seeking refuge in in order to claim asylum. You cannot claim order to claim asylum. You cannot claim asylum in the uk for example you are claim asylum in the uk for example you are in claim asylum in the uk for example you are in france or another country but i you are in france or another country but i think you are in france or another country but i think people are concerned that actually if people in increasing numbers are going to come increasing numbers are going to come in through increasing numbers are going to come in through irregular rates, that really in through irregular rates, that really undermines the whole system because really undermines the whole system because that means regardless of the merits because that means regardless of the merits of because that means regardless of the merits of your claim, at the moment, if merits of your claim, at the moment, it you merits of your claim, at the moment, it you can merits of your claim, at the moment, it you can get merits of your claim, at the moment, if you can get into a small boat and this is if you can get into a small boat and this is being if you can get into a small boat and This Is Being Run by Organised Crime gangs. This is being run by Organised Crime gangs. Its This Is Being Run by Organised Crime gangs, its very dangerous. You may end up gangs, its very dangerous. You may end up drowning anyway, hopefully The Border Force can find you in time The Border Force can find you in time and The Border Force can find you in time and risky but if you dont manage time and risky but if you dont manage to get a here, its very unlikely manage to get a here, its very unlikely that you are ever going to be sent unlikely that you are ever going to be sent back. Removals from the uk have dropped dramatically since my time, have dropped dramatically since my time it have dropped dramatically since my time it is have dropped dramatically since my time, it is hard to return people from time, it is hard to return people from the time, it is hard to return people from the territory and i think that is what from the territory and i think that is what the from the territory and i think that is what the government is trying to do with is what the government is trying to do with the is what the government is trying to do with the new Illegal Migration Act and do with the new Illegal Migration Act and with the Rwanda Policy, is to find act and with the Rwanda Policy, is to find a act and with the Rwanda Policy, is to find a way of sending the message to find a way of sending the message to peopie to find a way of sending the message to people who come regularly to the uk that to people who come regularly to the uk that this is not ok. And then if you do uk that this is not ok. And then if you do come by these routes, what we will do you do come by these routes, what we will do is you do come by these routes, what we will do is detect. You do come by these routes, what we will do is detect. Will do is detect. People are not stuid, will do is detect. People are not stupid. They will do is detect. People are not stupid. They will will do is detect. People are not stupid, they will take will do is detect. People are not stupid, they will take their will do is detect. People are notl stupid, they will take their chance. They know when it comes to rwanda we will ultimately be talking about relative terms, minuscule numbers. We will speak to simonjohnson just a moment in Dover Butjust making the point that patricia made, people agree with her, i spent quite a while morning talking to and reading Opinion Polls, the pollsters have been talking to people and they do say different things, it depends what the question is asked, stopping the boats, richey seen that s attempt to sharply reduce irregular migration routes is amongst the population as a whole, a polarised issue, divisive issue. But it is the second biggest concern according to a public first study, the second biggest concern for 2019 conservative voters. The key battleground. Letsjoin simon in dover, we get these official figures later. Tell us more. Later. Tell us more. Those figures are definitely later. Tell us more. Those figures are definitely going later. Tell us more. Those figures are definitely going to later. Tell us more. Those figures are definitely going to take later. Tell us more. Those figures are definitely going to take us later. Tell us more. Those figures l are definitely going to take us past the 100,000 figure when it comes to arrivals since 2018 when his crossing really started in earnest. Because we know yesterday hundreds of people made the journey across the channel, yesterday was the first day of good weather we have had in several weeks, day of good weather we have had in severalweeks, before day of good weather we have had in several weeks, before that it has been wet and windy and horrible weather for this time of year so hardly surprising when there was the opportunity, the smugglers on the other side of the channel took the chance of putting people in boats and sending them over into uk waters but we got a sign yesterday of how dangerous it can be because 17 people had to be rescued from the water by four lifeboats went their boats started sinking, it was dangerously overcrowded and the french authorities tell us they rescued 66 people yesterday, eight of those on one boat which got stranded on a sand bank but initially, those eight people on board refuse the help of the french authorities because they wanted to get a uk waters and be brought to the uk. After some hours when water started going into their boat, they eventually agreed to be taken back to france and the crossings continued this morning. We saw earlier one Border Force Boat bringing in a group of maybe 60 or 70 people to the shore here and i am told there are a number of other boats out there and actually the wind is picking up this morning. It may be dangerous crossing so i think border force and the french authorities will have to keep a close eye on the boats in the channel at the moment. Generally sueakin , channel at the moment. Generally speaking. Its channel at the moment. Generally speaking, its interesting. Channel at the moment. Generally speaking, its interesting. A channel at the moment. Generally speaking, its interesting. A very i speaking, its interesting. A very important issue to some people, divisive to all people but it depends, you know, depends on your political affiliation as to just where it is on your list of priorities but clearly, rishi sunak and the conservatives have done intense focus group work and they see this as a big one, simon, dont they . See this as a big one, simon, dont the . ,. ~ see this as a big one, simon, dont the . ,. , ~. , see this as a big one, simon, dont the . ,. , ~, see this as a big one, simon, dont the . ,. ,~. , ~,. , they . You talk to mps here on the south coast they . You talk to mps here on the south coast and they . You talk to mps here on the south coast and they they . You talk to mps here on the south coast and they say they . You talk to mps here on the south coast and they say it they . You talk to mps here on the south coast and they say it is they . You talk to mps here on the south coast and they say it is a south coast and they say it is a massive issue for constituents, the number one issue they are getting e mails about but its notjust on the south coast. Many mps across the country will tell you actually they are getting it in the neck from their constituents about what are you doing about this . I think also its very visible here, obviously in dover for you stand on the cliffs, you see the boats coming in and local people will stand appear on the cliffs and watch these boats on busy days being brought ashore and addresses some strong emotions but i think the fact you have all these people arriving and the backlog in the Asylum System, the backlog in Processing Claims means around 50,000 people in hotels and that has become an issue around the country with people being moved to hotels because there is not other accommodation for them so its not just a south coast issue but it is an issue really right across the country. A lot of people are very against these boats, people should be taken straight back to france, they should be turned back but you speak to groups who work with refugees in this area in kent said the problem as there are not safe and legal rights for people in france to try and claim asylum the uk. There is really safe and legal rights focus on areas like ukraine and hong kong and they say that is the big issue and as long as that does not change, people will continue to risk their lives in the busiest Shipping Lanes in the world. Thank you so much, the issue of the hotel is costing 5 £6 million every day, dealing in the opinions business many people see that is ridiculous and unfair and special treatment. Clare is in leicester. We have still got robinjenkins, former Rnli Volunteerfor 20 have still got robinjenkins, former rnli volunteer for 20 plus years and tommy smith and former head of uk border force, and miriam joins us from the borough of lewisham are you still there, patricia . I from the borough of lewisham are you still there, patricia . You still there, patricia . I am gettin you still there, patricia . I am getting a you still there, patricia . I am getting a lot you still there, patricia . I am getting a lot of you still there, patricia . I am getting a lot of texts you still there, patricia . I am getting a lot of texts about. You still there, patricia . I am l getting a lot of texts about what you say, people saying it lacks compassion and ive feel utterly ashamed to be british one of them says. Do not agree with her. No humanity, the current government is to blame the other cheats like this, its appalling, anyone can dismiss human life in this way. I am trying to stop them human life in this way. I am trying to stop them coming. Human life in this way. I am trying to stop them coming. But human life in this way. I am trying to stop them coming. But He Human Life in this way. I am trying to stop them coming. But he said | human life in this way. I am trying l to stop them coming. But he said if ou were to stop them coming. But he said if you were dying to stop them coming. But he said if you were dying. Illegally, you were dying. Illegally, illegally you were dying. Illegally, illegally. If you were dying. Illegally, illegally. If they you were dying. Illegally, illegally. If they still you were dying. Illegally, illegally. If they still feel| you were dying. Illegally, illegally. If they still feel they can do illegally. If they still feel they can do it illegally. If they still feel they can do it they illegally. If they still feel they can do it they will illegally. If they still feel they can do it they will carry illegally. If they still feel they can do it they will carry on illegally. If they still feel they can do it they will carry on coming, that is can do it they will carry on coming, that is ail~ can do it they will carry on coming, that is all. ~. ,. , can do it they will carry on coming, that is all that is all. Miriam would like to say something. That is all. Miriam would like to say something. Yes, that is all. Miriam would like to say something. Yes, i that is all. Miriam would like to say something. Yes, i was that is all. Miriam would like to i say something. Yes, i was saying that is all. Miriam would like to say something. Yes, i was saying to one of your say something. Yes, i was saying to one of your colleagues say something. Yes, i was saying to one of your colleagues on say something. Yes, i was saying to one of your colleagues on the say something. Yes, i was saying to | one of your colleagues on the phone that if she put herself or try to put yourself in a situation of these refugees, we have had fires from hama, we had the last heatwave there was lots of fires in england. If you were one of those people who lost your home in the fire from england arent you lost your entire possessions, how would you feel when you one would help you, you were placed in a large church with blankets and you have lost your possessions, your money, your home life, you arejust. Say possessions, your money, your home life, you are just. Say a friend or relative of yours got injured . How would you want to help you . You go straight to the British Government to help you in your time of need so how do you think those people travelling away from their country into an area or an area they have no idea what they are going off what they are doing, how do you think they feel for enabling the children and babies and husbands, living miles away from. Devastated, isolated, fear of what will happen and fleeing and running for their lives. Will happen and fleeing and running fortheir lives. How will happen and fleeing and running for their lives. How would you feel . As i said to the woman people, we have a war in ukraine which has been going on for a year or more. Everyone was happy to let the ukrainians, the British Government was happy to give them a job, open British Homes to them, give them jobs. The process was hard and difficult at first. With getting them all then but we finally got there and got them all in and move are happy that people that the men, they have the skills, education but what is happening to these people . Cannot the government do the same process as they did with the ukrainians to get them processed, get them a job, a lot of educated people there. Get them. We should havejobs at people there. Get them. We should have jobs at the moment. I people there. Get them. We should havejobs at the moment. I will have jobs at the moment. I will Brina Have Jobs at the moment. I will bring Claire Have Jobs at the moment. I will bring claire in, have jobs at the moment. I will bring claire in, not have jobs at the moment. I will bring claire in, not her have jobs at the moment. I will bring claire in, not her real have jobs at the moment. I will bring claire in, not her real name. Good morning. 24 of People Coming to this country on the small boats from afghanistan and gordon brown today or yesterday said the way girls and women are being treated in afghanistan is a crime against humanity. My goodness one can understand anyone wanting to come to this country for a better life, yeah . This country for a better life, eah . , ~ this country for a better life, eah . , ~. , this country for a better life, eah . , ~. ,. , yeah . Firstly, i think are some very renuine yeah . Firstly, i think are some very genuine people yeah . Firstly, i think are some very genuine people that yeah . Firstly, i think are some very genuine people that need yeah . Firstly, i think are some very genuine people that need our yeah . Firstly, i think are some very genuine people that need our helpl genuine people that need our help and keen genuine people that need our help and keen to come across. Absolutely, we need and keen to come across. Absolutely, we need to and keen to come across. Absolutely, we need to open our arms to them but there we need to open our arms to them but there is we need to open our arms to them but there is a we need to open our arms to them but there is a very we need to open our arms to them but there is a very dark side to this. I work there is a very dark side to this. I work in there is a very dark side to this. I work in the there is a very dark side to this. I work in the hairdressing, barbering and beauty work in the hairdressing, barbering and beauty sector, and it is becoming clear we are not regulated so if anyone goes and stands at the bottom so if anyone goes and stands at the bottom of so if anyone goes and stands at the bottom of the high street and looks up bottom of the high street and looks up and bottom of the high street and looks up and down they will see barber shops up and down they will see barber shops opening and there is very genuine shops opening and there is very genuine businesses out there but what genuine businesses out there but what we genuine businesses out there but what we are seeing is our Industry Being what we are seeing is our Industry Being taken over by Organised Crime gangs being taken over by Organised Crime gangs so being taken over by Organised Crime gangs. So there is no checks and balances gangs. So there is no checks and balances and if you actually, look at everybody coming from the boats arent at everybody coming from the boats arent they at everybody coming from the boats arent they separate the young man from the arent they separate the young man from the women and children and peopie from the women and children and people who genuinely need help. We have got people who genuinely need help. We have got to stop the reason they are coming have got to stop the reason they are coming and have got to stop the reason they are coming and the reason is they can go into our coming and the reason is they can go into our industry, trade for cash in hand into our industry, trade for cash in hand with into our industry, trade for cash in hand with no into our industry, trade for cash in hand with no checks and balances and do what hand with no checks and balances and do what they want and this is what we are do what they want and this is what we are seeing. We are seeing day in and out. We are seeing. We are seeing day in and out, people have businesses taken and out, people have businesses taken off and out, people have businesses taken off them, actually removed from taken off them, actually removed from them. It is killing our industry the hairdressing industry where you are. Anyone can set up as a hairdresser which is massively controversial. You are saying that the hairdressing business, it is a cash business, has up up and down the country, yes, it has up and down the country, yes, it has up up and down the country, yes, it has up and up and down the country, yes, it has. Up and down the whole of the uk, every has. Up and down the whole of the uk, every high street, if you go to a barbershop and you see lots of photographs outside, and you see cash only. Photographs outside, and you see cash only, there is nobody in there, there cash only, there is nobody in there, there you cash only, there is nobody in there, there you go. Cash only, there is nobody in there, there you go, that is one of your barber there you go, that is one of your barber shops. They turn over a fortune barber shops. They turn over a fortune but they never have anyone in there fortune but they never have anyone in there. You can make your own conclusions in there. You can make your own conclusions as why. But we do know sense conclusions as why. But we do know sense the conclusions as why. But we do know sense the boat crossings have increased, barber shops are opening various increased, barber shops are opening various other ones. I know a salon owner various other ones. I know a salon owner who various other ones. I know a salon owner who had Organised Crime groups take over owner who had Organised Crime groups take over her salon, force her out of her take over her salon, force her out of her salon. Take over her salon, force her out of her salon, home, because she lived of her salon, home, because she lived above of her salon, home, because she lived above it and force her to sell it to them lived above it and force her to sell it to them and then took the money back of it to them and then took the money back of her~ it to them and then took the money back of her. She is frightened to tell anyone. Back of her. She is frightened to tellanyone. No back of her. She is frightened to tell anyone. No one will listen to our industry. I have written to the here our industry. I have written to the here and our industry. I have written to the here and barbara council, i have written here and barbara council, i have written to here and barbara council, i have Written To People but nobody is listening. We Written To People but nobody is listeninu. ~. , Written To People but nobody is listenin. ~. ,. , Written To People but nobody is listeninu. ~. ,. ,. , listening. We are listening to you now. Listening. We are listening to you now thank listening. We are listening to you now. Thank you, listening. We are listening to you now. Thank you, i listening. We are listening to you now. Thank you, i appreciate listening. We are listening to you now. Thank you, i appreciate it, | now. Thank you, i appreciate it, renuine now. Thank you, i appreciate it, genuine people now. Thank you, i appreciate it, genuine people who now. Thank you, i appreciate it, genuine people who are now. Thank you, i appreciate it, genuine people who are trying l now. Thank you, i appreciate it, | genuine people who are trying to make genuine people who are trying to make a genuine people who are trying to make a living and run legitimate businesses are being forced out. We already businesses are being forced out. We already have a huge problem in our industry already have a huge problem in our industry regards employment, what i mean industry regards employment, what i mean by industry regards employment, what i mean by that is most places that you see operating are not employers. Do see operating are not employers. Dy you see operating are not employers. You think is see operating are not employers. Up you think is significant amount of People Coming across on small boats are merging, coming here, segueing into these Organised Crime gangs in your sector . Your sector . From what i am told, es. Your sector . From what i am told, yes where your sector . From what i am told, yes where are your sector . From what i am told, yes. Where are they your sector . From what i am told, yes. Where are they from . Your sector . From what i am told, yes. Where are they from . Knowl your sector . From what i am told, | yes. Where are they from . Know is know is it is yes. Where are they from . Know is know is it is eastern yes. Where are they from . Know is know is it is eastern european, yes. Where are they from . Know is| know is it is eastern european, that is all know is it is eastern european, that is all we know is it is eastern european, that is all we know. The high street i am in, is all we know. The high street i am in. Eight is all we know. The high street i am in, eight have opened in the last six to in, eight have opened in the last six to seven months. They will close down six to seven months. They will close down and six to seven months. They will close down and moved to another town. How is it affecting down and moved to another town. Findm is it affecting your down and moved to another town. Firm . Is it affecting your business . Down and moved to another town. Findm is it affecting your business . Sign that we cannot do it haircut for £5. If you are a qualified hairdresser or barber if you are a qualified hairdresser or barber or beautician, you have done or barber or beautician, you have done three or barber or beautician, you have done three years of training or another done three years of training or another qualification, and you are insured another qualification, and you are insured and another qualification, and you are insured and pay your taxes, it is not possible. The minimum is £30. You cannot not possible. The minimum is £30. You cannot do it. You cannot do it. Break their business you cannot do it. Break their Business Model you cannot do it. Break their Business Model of you cannot do it. Break their Business Model of the you cannot do it. Break their l Business Model of the criminal gangs. You mentioned young men coming across. Eastern europeans. Robinjenkins does not like the migrant rhetoric. What would you ask him . ~. ,. , migrant rhetoric. What would you ask him . ~. ,. ,. , migrant rhetoric. What would you ask him . ,. ,. ,. , ~. , him . What are they doing to talk to the industry . Him . What are they doing to talk to the industry . If him . What are they doing to talk to the industry . If our him . What are they doing to talk to the industry . If our industry him . What are they doing to talk to the industry . If our industry was. The industry . If our industry was regulated the industry . If our industry was regulated we could disrupt this behaviour. I would like to ask . Are you aware of this . We have lost him. . Are you aware of this . We have lost him it . Are you aware of this . We have lost him. It would . Are you aware of this . We have lost him. It would have . Are you aware of this . We have lost him. It would have been . Are you aware of this . We have| lost him. It would have been great to got his response. To got his response. Thank you for lettin me to got his response. Thank you for letting me raise to got his response. Thank you for letting me raise this. To got his response. Thank you for letting me raise this. It to got his response. Thank you for letting me raise this. It is a to got his response. Thank you for letting me raise this. It is a curvel letting me raise this. It is a curve ball, i was letting me raise this. It is a curve ball, i was not letting me raise this. It is a curve ball, i was not expecting letting me raise this. It is a curve ball, i was not expecting that. I ball, i was not expecting that. There are so many factors boiling in this cauldron. It fascinating doing this cauldron. It fascinating doing this programme. Inevitably, there will be responses to that by text and thoughts on it. The Umbrella Issue that we are discussing this morning, what do we do about the boats two call 08085 909 693. Text 85058. Give us your name, tell us where you are from, it need not be your real name. Sorry im late, it is 9 35. A lot of phone calls. Here is the news from karishma patel. Junior doctors in england have started a four day strike in their long running pay dispute. The British Medical Association wants a 35 pay rise which it says would make up for years of pay deals below inflation. Figures published this morning will show the number of migrants detained in the uk after crossing the channel in small boats has passed 100,000. The number has only been counted officially since january 2018. The average cost of Car Insurance went up by 21 in the three months to the end ofjune compared to the same time last year. The Association Of British Insurers said one reason for this was rising repair costs. Over 200 new signs have been added to british Sign Language to describe words used in environmental science. This include concepts like Greenhouse Gasses and carbon footprints. Now the sport. Liverpool have agreed a deal of £111 million with brighton for their Ecuador International midfielder, moises caicedo. If the sale goes through, it would set a new british transfer record. England captain harry kane has been cleared by Tottenham To Travel to germany and have a medical at bayern munich. The two clubs had already agreed a fee of £86 million. Spain have reached the semi finals of the womens world cup for the first time. They beat the netherlands 2 1 after extra time, and will face eitherjapan or sweden in the last four. Currently, in that quarter final. Its japan 0 sweden 1 at half time. Andy murray apologised to the crowd at the Canadian Open Tennis after withdrawing from the tournament with an abdominal strain. The 36 year old was due to face italian, jannik sinner, in the last 16. And the american ally ewing continues to lead the womens open golf at walton heath in surrey. Shes currently on 4 under par early on in her second round, and leads the field by one stroke. That first was in roller coasters. Let me tell you what is happening at ten oclock. There will be magic. Radio 5 live, the premier League Returns tonight and the lionesses are in action tomorrow. Football frenzy as for the premier league, it looks like harry kane is of two bayern munich. 22 to liverpool. The greatest show in town. It is about the saudi exodus, is that tarnishing things for you . Have we had premier League Already . What are your hopes and dreams . Is it the only show in town or are there many others two call 08085 909 693. Text 85058. It is going to be busy. Interesting to talk about the dublin agreement. Lots of people talk about this. Why dont people go to the first country to go through . When the uk was country of the eu, the dublin agreement meant that they could ask people to take back that proved pass through safe European Countries before reaching the uk. Officials were able to prove that Asylum Seekers had passed through other countries thanks to the fingerprint database. We no longer have access to the fingerprint database, so it is difficult to prove which other European Countries arrival to the uk have passed through. More of a bureaucratic entanglement there as well. We have got tracy in South West London and james in leeds. Good morning. Tracy, what do you think . How do we stop the boats . I what do you think . How do we stop the boats . ~ what do you think . How do we stop the boats . , ~. , the boats . I was thinking earlier in one of your the boats . I was thinking earlier in one of your reports, the boats . I was thinking earlier in one of your reports, about the boats . I was thinking earlier in one of your reports, about when i the boats . I was thinking earlier in one of your reports, about when a | one of your reports, about when a boat was rescued they refused to go back to france. Why are they refusing to go back to france . Is there life so bad . Would you not just accept to go anywhere . And then you had somebody called claire, i agreed with her, when you look at the boats coming off the sea, all you are seeing is young men. They have left their wives and children backin have left their wives and children back in wherever they are. I do not understand, why men . Bun . There is a big pool, you have family here, you speak english. You big pool, you have family here, you speak english speak english. You have to understand speak english. You have to understand that speak english. You have to understand that as speak english. You have to understand that as well. I speak english. You have to l understand that as well. Why speak english. You have to understand that as well. Why people want to come here. And to provide for theirfamilies to want to come here. And to provide for their families to start a new life. To make something of themselves. Do you think we lack compassion in the rhetoric sometimes . I compassion in the rhetoric sometimes . Compassion in the rhetoric sometimes . ~ �. Compassion in the rhetoric sometimes . ~ �. ,. , sometimes . I think weve had enough of it. The sometimes . I think weve had enough of it the way sometimes . I think weve had enough of it. The way the sometimes . I think weve had enough of it. The way the country sometimes . I think weve had enough of it. The way the country is sometimes . I think weve had enough of it. The way the country is going of it. The way the country is going at the moment with doctors, you go on holiday and you cant stay in a hotel because there are migrants there. I booked a doctor the other day, they give me an appointment for one month later. To be honest, if it wasnt anything serious, i could be dead by then. Wasnt anything serious, i could be dead by then dead by then. There are lots of problems dead by then. There are lots of problems in dead by then. There are lots of problems in the dead by then. There are lots of problems in the nhs. Dead by then. There are lots of problems in the nhs. Do dead by then. There are lots of. Problems in the nhs. Do you draw dead by then. There are lots of problems in the nhs. Do you draw a line between the small boats and what is happening in the nhs or are you frustrated that people are coming who were not invited . I agree, people need to better themselves, and if they have to cross the sea, its dramatic and their lives are horrible and thats why they want to come. For me, if my life was that bad and i had to leave the country i was in, wouldnt you accept any country you landed on . If i was in france, i would stay in france. Why would i come to britain . Kolbassia haoussou, director of freedom from torture, good morning. Tracy makes a point. Did you hear what she was saying . I tracy makes a point. Did you hear what she was saying . Tracy makes a point. Did you hear what she was saying . I heard some of it towards the what she was saying . I heard some of it towards the end. What she was saying . I heard some of it towards the end. Tracy, what she was saying . I heard some of it towards the end. Tracy, other it towards the end. Tracy, other eo le it towards the end. Tracy, other people make it towards the end. Tracy, other people make that it towards the end. Tracy, other people make that point, it towards the end. Tracy, other people make that point, why i it towards the end. Tracy, other people make that point, why is| it towards the end. Tracy, other. People make that point, why is it all young men, straight on the nhs . I was saying that if they were young men, they have left their wives and children, if i was a young man and a father with a wife, im pretty sure i would stay to help my wife and my children. Why am i leaving my wife and children in a place that is traumatic . I dont understand it. Kolbassia haoussou, you came in 2005. What say to that . Some people are not what might be described by others as genuine Asylum Seekers. I am going to give you an example. When am going to give you an example. Wheni am going to give you an example. When i was am going to give you an example. When i was a child, my father was persecuted when i was a child, my father was persecuted so he had to flee. He left us. Persecuted so he had to flee. He left us. Me persecuted so he had to flee. He left us, me at my grandmother and the rest left us, me at my grandmother and the rest of left us, me at my grandmother and the rest of my family behind. He escaped the rest of my family behind. He escaped to nigeria to protect his life. Escaped to nigeria to protect his life and escaped to nigeria to protect his life. And his friend who did not manage life. And his friend who did not manage to escape got killed. At the end of manage to escape got killed. At the end of the manage to escape got killed. At the end of the day, my father managed to et end of the day, my father managed to get us end of the day, my father managed to get us out end of the day, my father managed to get us out of the country, we lived there get us out of the country, we lived there for get us out of the country, we lived there for a get us out of the country, we lived there for a period of four years with there for a period of four years with my there for a period of four years with my grandmother and the rest of my family with my grandmother and the rest of my family. The risk is great. For you not my family. The risk is great. For you not to my family. The risk is great. For you not to put your children, someone you not to put your children, someone to make a decision not to put the someone to make a decision not to put the children, the wife into danger~ put the children, the wife into danger. That is why people escape and leave danger. That is why people escape and leave their family behind. If the head and leave their family behind. If the head of the family is killed, you are the head of the family is killed, you are creating more problems for your family you are creating more problems for your family. The journey that i took is really. Your family. The journey that i took is really, really dangerous and treacherous. Is really, really dangerous and treacherous. ,. , treacherous. You were fleeing from torture and treacherous. You were fleeing from torture and appalling treacherous. You were fleeing from torture and appalling things treacherous. You were fleeing from torture and appalling things that i torture and appalling things that were happening to your family. Torture and appalling things that were happening to yourfamily. What about the point that tracy made, it is a point that many people make, whether the rhetoric is slammed up or not, whether the fears are disproportionately exaggerated or not, it seems a lot of young men come here and we have heard already, a lot of people think they are merging into the black economy and they are merging into criminal gangs and that is why they are coming. Sign backi and that is why they are coming. Sian back ,. , and that is why they are coming. Si. N bac. ,. ,. , and that is why they are coming. Sin bac ,. , sign back i understand that is the rhetoric of the sign back i understand that is the rhetoric of the government. Sign back i understand that is the rhetoric of the government. Is i sign back i understand that is the i rhetoric of the government. Is there an truth rhetoric of the government. Is there any truth in rhetoric of the government. Is there any truth in it . Rhetoric of the government. Is there any truth in it . Not rhetoric of the government. Is there any truth in it . Not overall rhetoric of the government. Is there any truth in it . Not overall truth. I any truth in it . Not overall truth. There are any truth in it . Not overall truth. There are many any truth in it . Not overall truth. There are many people any truth in it . Not overall truth. There are many people seeking l there are many people seeking protection. The status of the government shows that 60 of people who are government shows that 60 of people who are making the claim, people are seeking who are making the claim, people are seeking protection and protection was given seeking protection and protection was given to them, if the data is telling was given to them, if the data is telling us was given to them, if the data is telling us it is this way and political telling us it is this way and political rhetoric and Demonising Peopie political rhetoric and demonising people are coming and seeking protection, it is about building the narrative protection, it is about building the narrative that they are pitching the community against the people who are coming community against the people who are coming here. Yes, amongst those peopie coming here. Yes, amongst those People Coming, there will be some peopie People Coming, there will be some people who are coming for other reasons people who are coming for other reasons. But it does not make us, we should reasons. But it does not make us, we should treat reasons. But it does not make us, we should treat people with respect and dignity should treat people with respect and dignity and then we determine, our asylum dignity and then we determine, our Asylum System is working very well, we determine who needs protection and who we determine who needs protection and who does not need protection. What and who does not need protection. What do and who does not need protection. What do you think about the rhetoric two it what do you think about the rhetoric two. What do you think about the rhetoric two ,. What do you think about the rhetoric two it is an escape for the government two it is an escape for the government to two it is an escape for the government to take two it is an escape for the government to take responsibility for the government to take responsibility for the living crisis. They want to push for the living crisis. They want to push the for the living crisis. They want to push the narrative so that people focus push the narrative so that people focus on push the narrative so that people focus on this small part of the problem focus on this small part of the problem. Do focus on this small part of the roblem. , ~ focus on this small part of the roblem. ,. , i. ~ , focus on this small part of the roblem. ,. , ~ , focus on this small part of the roblem. I. ~ ,. , problem. Do you think this is a deliberate problem. Do you think this is a deliberate distraction . Problem. Do you think this is a deliberate distraction . Absolutely. What ou deliberate distraction . Absolutely. What you think deliberate distraction . Absolutely. What you think about deliberate distraction . Absolutely. What you think about that deliberate distraction . Absolutely. What you think about that two deliberate distraction . Absolutely. What you think about that two do | deliberate distraction . Absolutely. I what you think about that two do you think these are smoking mirrors. How important is this in the scheme of things . I important is this in the scheme of thins . ~ ,. ,. , things . Ithink it probably is, i sa to things . Ithink it probably is, i say to your things . Ithink it probably is, i say to your researcher, things . Ithink it probably is, i say to your researcher, i things . Ithink it probably is, i say to your researcher, i was l say to your researcher, i was listening say to your researcher, i was listening to say to your researcher, i was listening to a say to your researcher, i was listening to a saying say to your researcher, i was listening to a saying on say to your researcher, i was listening to a saying on radio say to your researcher, i was listening to a saying on radio two, and who listening to a saying on radio two, and who was listening to a saying on radio two, and who was an listening to a saying on radio two, and who was an investigative and who was an investigative journalist. And who was an investigative journalist, she and who was an investigative journalist, she went and who was an investigative journalist, she went to and who was an investigative journalist, she went to the i and who was an investigative journalist, she went to the beaches at calais journalist, she went to the beaches at calais and journalist, she went to the beaches at calais and they journalist, she went to the beaches at calais and they started journalist, she went to the beachesj at calais and they started checking, i do at calais and they started checking, i do not at calais and they started checking, i do not what at calais and they started checking, i do not what you at calais and they started checking, i do not what you call at calais and they started checking, i do not what you call them at calais and they started checking, i do not what you call them on at calais and they started checking, i do not what you call them on the. I do not what you call them on the boats. I do not what you call them on the boats. The i do not what you call them on the boats, the number i do not what you call them on the boats, the number to i do not what you call them on the boats, the number to see i do not what you call them on the boats, the number to see if i do not what you call them on the boats, the number to see if they. Boats, the number to see if they have boats, the number to see if they have been boats, the number to see if they have been manufactured, boats, the number to see if they have been manufactured, to boats, the number to see if they have been manufactured, to cut| boats, the number to see if theyl have been manufactured, to cut a lon have been manufactured, to cut a long story have been manufactured, to cut a long story short. Have been manufactured, to cut a long story short, she have been manufactured, to cut a long story short, she tracked have been manufactured, to cut a long story short, she tracked it. Long story short, she tracked it down long story short, she tracked it down to long story short, she tracked it down to a long story short, she tracked it down to a company long story short, she tracked it down to a company in long story short, she tracked iti down to a company in germany, long story short, she tracked it down to a company in germany, she described down to a company in germany, she described it down to a company in germany, she described it as down to a company in germany, she described it as very down to a company in germany, she described it as very sinister, down to a company in germany, she described it as very sinister, it described it as very sinister, it was described it as very sinister, it was a described it as very sinister, it was a generic described it as very sinister, it was a generic page, described it as very sinister, it was a generic page, not described it as very sinister, it was a generic page, not a described it as very sinister, it i was a generic page, not a proper website. Was a generic page, not a proper website. And was a generic page, not a proper website, and they was a generic page, not a proper website, and they got was a generic page, not a proper website, and they got in was a generic page, not a proper website, and they got in there i was a generic page, not a proper. Website, and they got in there and basically website, and they got in there and basically this website, and they got in there and basically this company website, and they got in there and basically this company that basically this company that manufactured basically this company that manufactured these basically this company that manufactured these large. Basically this company that manufactured these large boats, basically this company that manufactured these large boats, they were saying manufactured these large boats, they were saying the manufactured these large boats, they were saying the 30 manufactured these large boats, they were saying the 30 metre manufactured these large boats, they were saying the 30 metre boats manufactured these large boats, they were saying the 30 metre boats can l were saying the 30 metre boats can take 20 were saying the 30 metre boats can take 20 peopie were saying the 30 metre boats can take 20 people which were saying the 30 metre boats can take 20 people which will were saying the 30 metre boats can take 20 people which will make were saying the 30 metre boats can take 20 people which will make you j take 20 people which will make you £250. 000~ take 20 people which will make you £250,000. Directly take 20 people which will make you £250,000. Directly referencing take 20 people which will make you | £250,000. Directly referencing how they would £250,000. Directly referencing how they would make £250,000. Directly referencing how they would make money. £250,000. Directly referencing how they would make money. Enter £250,000. Directly referencing howj they would make money. Enter paul and our they would make money. Enter paul and our own they would make money. Enter paul and our own police they would make money. Enter paul and our own police need they would make money. Enter paul and our own police need to they would make money. Enter paul and our own police need to target i and our own police need to target these and our own police need to target these gangs and our own police need to target these gangs i and our own police need to target these gangs. I know and our own police need to target these gangs. I know it and our own police need to target these gangs. I know it is and our own police need to target these gangs. I know it is not these gangs. I know it is not illegal these gangs. I know it is not illegal to these gangs. I know it is not illegal to manufacture these gangs. I know it is noti illegal to manufacture boats, these gangs. I know it is not illegal to manufacture boats, but when illegal to manufacture boats, but when it illegal to manufacture boats, but when it is illegal to manufacture boats, but when it is directed illegal to manufacture boats, but when it is directed at illegal to manufacture boats, but when it is directed at one when it is directed at one particular when it is directed at one particular set when it is directed at one particular set of when it is directed at one particular set of people, i when it is directed at one particular set of people, migrants, more particular set of people, migrants, more should particular set of people, migrants, more should be particular set of people, migrants, more should be done. Particular set of people, migrants, more should be done. This particular set of people, migrants, more should be done. More should be done. This is very tric for more should be done. This is very tricky for police. More should be done. This is very tricky for police. I more should be done. This is very tricky for police. I will more should be done. This is very tricky for police. I will come tricky for police. I will come back to you. We have a caller from warrington and hertfordshire. Ember is imminent on the line. She is there. You are in the running order. Good to have you there, what do you think about what you are hearing on the programme and what you are hearing generally . The political atmosphere. I hearing generally . The political atmosphere atmosphere. I texted earlier as someone who atmosphere. I texted earlier as someone who is atmosphere. I texted earlier as someone who is a atmosphere. I texted earlier as i someone who is a granddaughter atmosphere. I texted earlier as someone who is a granddaughter of a polish national who fled the war in the 1940s. He ended up coming to scotland on a boat and did not know anything about where he was going, he fled for his life. He came here not speaking any english, not having any family or anything and found himself here. I think sometimes people talking about young men fleeing, he was 21 years old when he fled, he came here, brought up a family, he learnt english, he worked right up until he passed away, i think we put everyone in that same boat as young men, but he was not one of them, someone who was coming overjust one of them, someone who was coming over just trying to one of them, someone who was coming overjust trying to use our services which i think sometimes criminal gangs, yes, people make the assumption that everyone is like that. I was saying that i am from someone. My grandad someone who is not that. ,. , not that. Fleeing persecution, t in to not that. Fleeing persecution, trying to make not that. Fleeing persecution, trying to make a not that. Fleeing persecution, trying to make a better not that. Fleeing persecution, trying to make a better life i not that. Fleeing persecution, | trying to make a better life for himself and his family. And here you are. I know you came here legally in 2003. What do you think . This issue has one 2003. What do you think . This issue has gone on 2003. What do you think . This issue has gone on for 2003. What do you think . This issue has gone on for far 2003. What do you think . This issue has gone on for far too 2003. What do you think . This issue has gone on for far too long. 2003. What do you think . This issue has gone on for far too long. There i has gone on for far too long. There are at has gone on for far too long. There are at least has gone on for far too long. There are at least 12 to 13 countries having are at least 12 to 13 countries having lived in west africa myself, there having lived in west africa myself, there are having lived in west africa myself, there are at least 12 to 13 countries depending on where you come countries depending on where you come from countries depending on where you come from in west africa, and all these come from in west africa, and all these countries that fold between west africa and the uk, pakistan, india. West africa and the uk, pakistan, india. Uk. West africa and the uk, pakistan, india, uk, at least 12 to 15, depending what road you take, they could depending what road you take, they could go depending what road you take, they could go into any of these countries is the could go into any of these countries is the reason is persecution, if they is the reason is persecution, if they think is the reason is persecution, if they think they will be hunted down, their life they think they will be hunted down, their life is they think they will be hunted down, their life is threatened, we appreciate that, they do not need to come appreciate that, they do not need to come all appreciate that, they do not need to come all the way to the uk, they could come all the way to the uk, they could go come all the way to the uk, they could go to come all the way to the uk, they could go to any of those countries. As for could go to any of those countries. As for the could go to any of those countries. As for the issue being from the political as for the issue being from the political leaders of this party, they political leaders of this party, they are political leaders of this party, they are not fully on board on battling they are not fully on board on battling this migrant crisis, it battling this migrant crisis, if is not battling this migrant crisis, it is not labours problem at the moment. It is not labours problem at the moment. Is not labours problem at the moment is not labours problem at the moment. ,. ,. ,. , moment. It is not about which party ou moment. It is not about which party you belong moment. It is not about which party you belong to. Moment. It is not about which party you belong to. You moment. It is not about which party you belong to, you should moment. It is not about which party you belong to, you should be moment. It is not about which party you belong to, you should be more| you belong to, you should be more patriotic you belong to, you should be more patriotic towards the country, charity patriotic towards the country, Charity Begins at home. We have a mass Charity Begins at home. We have a mass issue Charity Begins at home. We have a mass issue with inflation. This Charity Begins at home. We have a mass issue with inflation. Mass issue with inflation. This is interesting. Mass issue with inflation. This is interesting, people mass issue with inflation. This is interesting, people are mass issue with inflation. This is| interesting, people are surprised mass issue with inflation. This is i interesting, people are surprised by it, when people have come here and mid lives here and they want to limit the opportunity for others to do exactly the same thing, some people might put it like that. Ikla people might put it like that. No one is stopping People Coming to the country. One is stopping People Coming to the country. Or one is stopping People Coming to the country, orwe one is stopping People Coming to the country, or we are saying is come to the country country, or we are saying is come to the country legally. And the issue is if you the country legally. And the issue is if you are the country legally. And the issue is if you are coming in an age group of 20 is if you are coming in an age group of 20 to is if you are coming in an age group of 20 to 30. Is if you are coming in an age group of 20 to 30. I is if you are coming in an age group of 20 to 30, i am not an ageist, youre of 20 to 30, i am not an ageist, youre living of 20 to 30, i am not an ageist, youre living your family behind, most youre living your family behind, most of youre living your family behind, most of them will have children and you are most of them will have children and you are coming here legally, the sole purpose is not persecution but to create sole purpose is not persecution but to create a sole purpose is not persecution but to create a livelihood, but in the uk, to create a livelihood, but in the uk. There to create a livelihood, but in the uk, there are 15 countries in between uk, there are 15 countries in between. All those countries are safe between. All those countries are safe the between. All those countries are safe. The pretext of coming to the uk is safe. The pretext of coming to the uk is wrong. The problem is being fuelled uk is wrong. The problem is being fueiied by uk is wrong. The problem is being fuelled by the likes of people who will not fuelled by the likes of people who will not get the grasp of what the public will not get the grasp of what the public wants. Some of the solicitors and lawyers and do gooders who are always and lawyers and do gooders who are always protesting for letting these illegal always protesting for letting these Illegal Migrants in. See how they feei~ Illegal Migrants in. See how they feel. ,. Illegal migrants in. See how they feel. ,. ,. , feel. Kolbassia haoussou, what do ou sa feel. Kolbassia haoussou, what do you say two feel. Kolbassia haoussou, what do you say two i feel. Kolbassia haoussou, what do you say two i am feel. Kolbassia haoussou, what do you say two i am astonished feel. Kolbassia haoussou, what do you say two i am astonished by i feel. Kolbassia haoussou, what doj you say two i am astonished by his argument you say two i am astonished by his argument the you say two i am astonished by his argument. The same you say two i am astonished by his argument. The same way you say two i am astonished by his argument. The same way he you say two i am astonished by his argument. The same way he got i you say two i am astonished by his argument. The same way he got here, i got legally. The argument. The same way he got here, i got legally i got legally. The legal route. A l to i got legally. The legal route. Apply to the i got legally. The legal route. Apply to the embassy. I got legally. The legal route. Apply to the embassy. The i got legally. The legal route. | apply to the embassy. The legal route is for apply to the embassy. The legal route is for ukraines apply to the embassy. The legal route is for ukraines and apply to the embassy. The legal route is for ukraines and hong. Route is for ukraines and hong kong. Route is for ukraines and hong kona. � , route is for ukraines and hong kona. �. ,. , route is for ukraines and hong kona. , thereis kong. Apply to the embassy. There is no uk embassy kong. Apply to the embassy. There is no uk embassy from kong. Apply to the embassy. There is no uk embassy from the kong. Apply to the embassy. There is no uk embassy from the countries i no uk embassy from the countries they are coming from. We need to look at the issue globally, not taking one example and generalising it. There is no legal and safe route thatis it. There is no legal and safe route that is accessible for people. It is a fact. People fleeing, there are people who are fleeing for their life. When you are fleeing for your life, you are not choosing this and that. There is one thing. Life, you are not choosing this and that. There is one thing. There are 16 countries that. There is one thing. There are 16 countries from that. There is one thing. There are 16 countries from sierra that. There is one thing. There are 16 countries from sierra leone that. There is one thing. There are 16 countries from sierra leone to i 16 countries from sierra leone to the uk 16 countries from sierra leone to the uk you 16 countries from sierra leone to the uk. You can go to any of those countries the uk. You can go to any of those countries i the uk. You can go to any of those countries. R the uk. You can go to any of those countries. ,. , the uk. You can go to any of those countries countries. I will ask you the same cuestion. Countries. I will ask you the same question why countries. I will ask you the same question. Why did countries. I will ask you the same question. Why did you countries. I will ask you the same question. Why did you decide countries. I will ask you the same question. Why did you decide to i countries. I will ask you the same question. Why did you decide to come to the uk . �. ,. , question. Why did you decide to come to the uk . �. ,. , to the uk . Before i came to the uk, i met m to the uk . Before i came to the uk, i met my current to the uk . Before i came to the uk, i met my current partner to the uk . Before i came to the uk, i met my current partner who to the uk . Before i came to the uk, i met my current partner who was i i met my current partner who was british i met my current partner who was british and i met my current partner who was british and we wanted to have a family. British and we wanted to have a family. I british and we wanted to have a family, i was happy in gambia, there were no family, i was happy in gambia, there were no issues, there was a change of government, a heavy handed government, i applied to come and stay here government, i applied to come and stay here in government, i applied to come and stay here in the country legally to the united stay here in the country legally to the united high commission. The checked the united high commission. The checked my case, they knew i was in a relationship with my partner, based a relationship with my partner, based on a relationship with my partner, based on that, i got a visa to be able based on that, i got a visa to be able to based on that, i got a visa to be able to live based on that, i got a visa to be able to live in the uk and work. Nobody able to live in the uk and work. Nobody is able to live in the uk and work. Nobody is stopping people who are coming nobody is stopping people who are coming legally into the country. Your coming legally into the country. Your case coming legally into the country. Your case is different, you are not fleeing persecution and torture. Can you let me finish my point . I respectfully let you finish your point. You came with a different set of requirements. Your case is different. You can go into spain, you can go to the embassy and you seek a visa, we are talking about people fleeing persecution. Where is the persecution people fleeing persecution. Where is the persecution two people fleeing persecution. Where is the persecution two nigeria people fleeing persecution. Where is the persecution two nigeria and the persecution two nigeria and sierra the persecution two nigeria and sierra leone are safe. Things have changed sierra leone are safe. Things have changed there. If there is persecution, i appreciate there are factions persecution, i appreciate there are factions. ,. , ,. , factions. How can you appreciate something factions. How can you appreciate something that factions. How can you appreciate something that you factions. How can you appreciate something that you have factions. How can you appreciate something that you have not factions. How can you appreciate. Something that you have not lived through two you have not lived through two you have not lived through persecution. Through two you have not lived through persecution. Excuse me. Have ou through persecution. Excuse me. Have you lived through persecution. Excuse me. Have you lived through through persecution. Excuse me. I have you lived through persecution . I have lived in regimes. I have lived in regimes. Where you ersonall i have lived in regimes. Where you personally persecuted . I have lived in regimes. Where you personally persecuted . I i have lived in regimes. Where you personally persecuted . I was i have lived in regimes. Where you personally persecuted . I was very i personally persecuted . I was very close to the personally persecuted . I was very close to the government personally persecuted . I was very close to the Government People i personally persecuted . I was very l close to the Government People and personally persecuted . I was very i close to the Government People and i did have close to the Government People and i did have problems. I could have gone to any did have problems. I could have gone to any country. You did have problems. I could have gone to any country to any country. You are not persecuted. To any country. You are not persecuted, your to any country. You are not persecuted, your life to any country. You are not persecuted, your life is to any country. You are not persecuted, your life is notj to any country. You are not i persecuted, your life is not in danger, you are not forced to flee. I am talking about a personal experience. My father, myself and my family were persecuted and we had to take a dangerous route to get somewhere. Abs, take a dangerous route to get somewhere take a dangerous route to get somewhere. �. , , somewhere. A final response in ust one second. The fl somewhere. A final response in ust one second. The viewers somewhere. A final response in ust one second. The viewers are i somewhere. A final response in just j one second. The viewers are leaving us from bbc two and bbc news. We will continue our conversation on radio 5 live. Live from london, this is bbc news. We are seeing lots of life. As you know, the number has been rising, we will continue to see loss of life. More than 100,000 people have been intercepted crossing the English Channel and small boats in the past five years. Junior doctors in england begin their latest strike, a four walk out over pay and conditions. A very warm welcome to you. We start in hama, at least 55 people are known to have died in one of ours on the island of governors say its probably the largest Natural Disaster in the history of the state and the death toll is likely to rise. Around 1000 people are missing