Zac, lord goldsmith, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for having me. Its a pleasure to have you here. Just a couple of months ago, you left rishi sunak� s government and, as you left, you lobbed a political grenade in his direction. Why did you do that . My concern is that, you know, im maybe a rare thing, a minister who cares passionately, or cared passionately about my portfolio. And ifound myjob was becoming untenable, it was becoming impossible for me to go forward. It was becoming virtually impossible to prevent government from sliding back. And the key issue is this pledge which was made by borisjohnson, repeated by liz truss, repeated a few times by rishi sunak around International Climate finance, from which so much of what the uk has done over the last few years flows, and that pledge was being broken. You say, because it was a pledge of something over. £11. 6 billion over five years. Over five years to be invested in International Climate change programmes and efforts. Yes. You say quite clearly that the government was way off target to meet that pledge. But the government and ijust checked with the number 10 website they say, absolutely false, we are still committed to that target, and theyre still on track. The government is, i mean, look, its great that the government is saying that theyre committed to 11. 6, but mathematically, it is impossible for us to meet that target unless the treasury intervenes, unless the Prime Minister intervenes. Its simply impossible. If you look at the trajectory of expenditure, in order to fulfil that promise, the first year of the next government, which may or may not be this government, it might be the labour party, will have to spend over 80 of all of its bilateral aid on climate finance, and that obviously is not going to happen. Yeah, look, lets be realistic about the politics here, because you make the case, you know, you were so disappointed that you said you had to leave government, but you made it personal. Yeah. You accused rishi sunak individually, as the leader of the country, of being, uninterested, fundamentally uninterested in the environmental challenges that face the uk nation, but the world as a whole. You say, ive been horrified. This was your resignation letter,. Ive been horrified as bit by bit, we have abandoned key commitments. Our efforts on a wide range of domestic Environmental Issues have simply ground to a standstill. And this, tragically, is the case. Look, every minister who cares about their brief is always faced with the tension, when things start going the way they dont want them to go, do they stay in there, do they continue to push, or do they blow the whistle and resign . And it felt to me that the odds moved pretty dramatically in favour of the latter course, because i was losing too many battles. The reality is, we dont like to praise ourselves in the uk, but the truth is, internationally, there is no more important voice on the International Stage when it comes to the environment, notjust Climate Change, but the environment, than the uk. And thats recognised by countries All Around The World. So when that first pledge was made by Prime Ministerjohnson at the un general assembly, there was huge applause, particularly from the climate vulnerable nations, from the commonwealth, more than half of whose members are Small Island States. This meant Something Big to them, this was the uk massive declaration, we want to be leaders in this space, we want to back you up against what you believe. Many of these nations, in fact all Small Island States. Is an existential threat. And to then break that promise which we are and really whats disappointing, i think, in the last couple of months, is that the government has been allowed to say that its maintaining that pledge, that its committed to 11. 6. So, they� re lying 7 your contention is, the government is lying . I mean, a lie implies they know what theyre doing, and its perfectly possible that number 10, the treasury are not aware of the maths. But i am, i was the minister who looked through these figures day in, day out. And i know, as every Single Person in the foreign and Commonwealth Office knows, that we are not going to meet that target. No Civil Servants would ever come on this programme and tell you that were going to meet 11. 6, they will tell you the opposite, or theyll say nothing at all, as Civil Servants are wont to do. I want to continue our conversation about the environmental challenges and the way the government is trying to meet them and its commitment or otherwise to net zero by 2050, come back to all of that, but i have to, at this point, as weve talked about your resignation from government, get into one other issue, which actually is rather important to you as positioning yourself as a man of principle. Isnt the truth that you actually left the government because rishi sunak was so infuriated by the stand you took on the parliamentary investigation into borisjohnson and the so called Partygate Scandal . So, this was the narrative that was put out by number 10 after i resigned, and its just not true. I was asked very politely by a colleague, a friend in number 10, to issue a soft apology, not apologising for what i said, but apologising for the fact that as a minister, isaid it. And thats fair enough, a Minister Needs to toe the line. And, to be clear, for those listening and watching, what you did when a parliamentary committee, a bipartisan so called Privileges Committee, had looked at borisjohnson� s words and behaviours around this Partygate Scandal that we all remember, the Privileges Committee ultimately found that borisjohnson had deliberately misled the House Of Commons. He had committed a contempt of parliament. You then came out and dismissed the findings of that Bipartisan Committee as, an appalling witch hunt, an anti democratic kangaroo court. How could you do that . So, im going to try and be brief on this, because its so unimportant compared to the issues. I would like that. But the reality is that if this committee had been a court of law, it would have been struck out on day one for the simple reason that almost all of the mps on that committee had expressed their verdict long before they saw any of the evidence almost all of them. Im sorry, but youre an experienced parliamentarian, you know that the House Of Commons works on rules, those rules have to be accepted by everybody. 0k. There is a Privileges Committee, it is bipartisan, and they reach their conclusions, which in the end overwhelmingly were accepted by the House Of Commons. Thats the system. But mps are fallible people and theyre ordinary human beings. Perhaps in some respects, mps are a particular species, i dont know. You cannot expect a fair hearing when almost all of the members of a committee have already told the world what they think the outcome should be before. Interesting. You called it a kangaroo court, which is exactly the same phrase that borisjohnson used. The truth is, you are a longstanding, very close friend of borisjohnson, he gave you a job in government. Basically, you decided that you were going to stick with your mate, and that. Not at all. Is the reason why rishi sunak had no trust or faith in you. Not at all. I think he did have confidence in me doing thisjob, i did a good job as environment minister. I think that on the world stage, the uk on my watch became the world leader on the environment, on climate. Thats been recognised by countries All Around The World, as we saw when i stepped down. My loyalty, im a friend, of course, of borisjohnson in the political context. Hes not someone i knew before i entered politics. Hang on, youre a friend in every context you lent him your home in marbella hang on a second. My loyalty, as anyone ive worked with since i was 18 and became a committed environmentalist, will know, anyone in good faith will tell you my loyalty is to these issues. I am deeply concerned by whats happening to the Natural World, ive committed my life to tackling these issues. Small time personality politics in the Houses Of Parliament are totally irrelevant in that context. So. Stephen, let me finish, because had borisjohnson gone back on 11. 6, which at one point i thought he was going to, incidentally, but had he gone back on 11. 6, i would have issued a tirade against him and i would have resigned, because this issue is so much more important than anyone, indeed all of them put together in parliament. Just a quick final thought on borisjohnson, then well get back to what you say are the much bigger issues. Do you now accept that Boris Johnson has done enormous damage to the party you are still a member of, the Conservative Party, and indeed done enormous damage to the nation . I dont accept that. Borisjohnson is a man with numerous flaws and numerous qualities. My view is that we had a big majority, which was secured in a general election that he presided over, and on his watch, the issues that i care about are areas where we made huge progress. There has never been a Prime Minister in this country whos done more on the environment than borisjohnson. That is simply an objective, observable fact, and thats something which even his enemies, those people who are most hostile to him, now pretty much across the board accept. So for me and having put me in a position where i was able to be part of that progress, that story i feel very grateful to him. And i will continue to try and build on what was achieved. So the theme so far of our conversation is that you care Above And Beyond anything else about doing your best to help this country meet the environmental challenges it faces . Outside of my family, its the only thing i care about. The only thing you care about . Its the only thing i care about. Well, why on earth did you choose to resign when, in the words of former tory minister, your colleague andrea leadsom, she says, it is so much easier to throw your toys out of the pram. Like you did, and become a protester than it is actually to stay inside the tent Finding Solutions . Because i did four years as a minister, i got an enormous amount done. In the last few months, every day, id have discussions with my brilliant officials about how difficult things were getting, and i realised that i was losing the battle on notjust small things, but big things like the 11. 6 billion. And i was going to have to stand up in parliament and pretend were going to hit 11. 6, pretend that all those commitments we made to Small Island States are valid, that were not going to betray them, when i know, and i knew then, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that that was not true, and i couldnt do that. And i felt that by resigning, by blowing the whistle on the 11. 6, that the government would feel obliged to prove me wrong. And some of the quotes that you read out earlier give me a little bit of hope that maybe that happened, maybe they will struggle, find something down the back of the sofa to honour that pledge. But its not going to happen unless the government, that the Prime Minister or the chancellor directly intervene, and that is what we need to hope for. And until they do, they should not be allowed, in my view, to pretend that this 11. 6 promise is going to be honoured, because it isnt. It is a mathematical impossibility. 0k, got that. I posited the question earlier about whether there is now the signs of a real backlash, particularly inside your Conservative Party, against the green agenda . Im mindful that when you entered politics back in 2005 06, David Cameron was pushing this idea, vote blue, ie tory, and go green. Well, now what we see are very senior conservatives backing away, explicitly backing away from the commitments to cut emissions very significantly by 2030 and to get to net zero by 2050. Your party no longer buys it . I would say, and its very hard to measure this, but i would say there are more people in the parliamentary party, and its probably true of members as well, who are committed to seeing through the commitments weve made on the environment, notjust carbon, but on the broader environment as well, than those people who are pushing back. Unfortunately, those who push back are tougher, theyre louder, theyre more aggressive and theyre effective at grabbing the mic. Priti patel, former home secretary, we need to pause all of this activity. And she is in a minority. The public are not ready for it. Craig mackinlay, the chairman of a new group, i think theyve got more new members than the net zero scrutiny group. You could name 30 or a0 people, no doubt. Im telling you, one group has more than 50 mps and their numbers are growing. But then equally, there are many, many more members in the conservative environment network, which is committed to net zero, which is committed to the broader environmental agenda, and let mejust make one point, stephen in every single survey that has ever been conducted, and ive commissioned a few myself, ive read many, every single one demonstrates beyond any doubt that the majority of voters, from whichever party they belong to, support greater action on biodiversity, nature on the environment. Youre not reading the tea leaves. The Conservative Home website just did a series of polls just in the last week or two. A0 , they found of tories, this is oppose the net zero target. 33 think Global Warming is not driven by human activity. But these arent ordinary people, this is a self selecting, highly partisan. Conservatives arent ordinary people . This is a highly partisan website with a particular self selecting readership. Im talking about formal, official, professional, independently conducted surveys by those people in a position who know what theyre doing. And in every case, including two that came out this morning, in every case, a clear majority of people, even slightly more among conservative voters, want more action on nature, cleaning up our rivers, protecting our biodiversity, planting more trees, and more action on net zero. So i dont buy that. But you know what many conservatives will say to you zac goldsmith, get real, look at actually what happens in elections. Theyll point to the uxbridge by election. For those not in the uk, uxbridge is a suburb of london where a key issue when voters went to the polls to choose a new mp was whether there should be a charge for older vehicles, more polluting vehicles, to enter into that part of outer london. And it was the issue which seems to have swung the vote in favour of the conservative candidate, who opposed that ultra low emissions policy. That outcome proves only one thing. What . That there was an environmental policy which was going to bash up a lot of people who couldnt afford to pay that tax and who reacted against it. There is good policy and theres bad policy. Its a bit like saying that because Margaret Thatcher got it wrong on the poll tax, all taxation should be banned. It was a clumsy policy which needed to be rethought and i personally have no problem with that. What i do have a problem with is an idea that we should abandon the aspiration that we should pursue cleaner air in london, or that we should pursue efforts to reduce our emissions, or that we should do what we can to realign ourselves with the Natural World on which we depend. Those outcomes are beyond question, in my view, but there are many different policy ways of achieving that. So let us return to rishi sunak, we discussed him earlier. Lets now discuss his, it seems, very personal commitment to opening up new north sea oil and gas exploration. 100 new licences being issued by the sunak government. Lets also talk about the degree to which he is now backing the motorist in a perceived war on the motorists that some green campaigners, according to members of the tory party, are now running. What do you make of these signals that rishi sunak is sending to the british people . So im confused as to who rishi sunak thinks hes talking to he talks about the motorist. Well, im a motorist. Youre a motorist. Most of the people watching, from this country at least, this programme, whatever their views on the environment, are, at one point or another, motorists. Theyre not a self contained species whose vote were seeking to secure and attract. It feels to me that rishi sunak is speaking to a very, very small group, a rump within, a very noisy rump, albeit, and a powerful one, but within the Conservative Party. And hes mistaking that for the voice of the people, or even the voice of the Conservative Party as a whole. And i think hes going to fall flat on his face at the election unless he comes to his senses between now and then. Hang on, youvejust said something very important, and as the guy who told me just a few minutes ago that this, beyond yourfamily, is really the only cause that really matters to you day in, day out, i am assuming, given what youve just told me, that right now you are saying to yourself, i cant vote for rishi sunak� s Conservative Party, i am going to have to look elsewhere. We have plenty of time before the next election. Im desperately hoping the Conservative Party comes to its senses. I dont thin