About that. If you worked on the ground for an ngo, get in touch and tell us. Indias rocket to the moon, 60 million quid, ouraid tell us. Indias rocket to the moon, 60 million quid, our aid to india, 33. 4 60 million quid, our aid to india, 33. 1; million quite. Is foreign aid money well spent a few donald trump is due in Court Tomorrow charged with trying to overturn the result of the 2020 us election, the former president is already accused of mishandling classified documents and falsifying business records, he denies the allegations. Thousands of women in africa are at risk of unsafe abortion or death during childbirth according to an internal report by Civil Servants that says it is because of Government Cuts to overseas aid. The Foreign Office says it is spending nearly double in the next year. Asylum seekers are not likely to move to the Accommodation Barge in dorset until next week, the local fire service has not given the go ahead, halting the first group of arrivals. The home of his assets and says there are no fire safety issues with their vessel. A bbc investigation has found that some medical clinics are using for Customer Reviews on google to boost their rates online. New legislation will crack down on the practice. Where do we still send the money, top five Directorate Recipients in 2021 of our foreign aid. Some top five Directorate Recipients in 2021 of ourforeign aid. Some of top five Directorate Recipients in 2021 of our foreign aid. Some of you might say largest, lets look at the figures. Afghanistan 160 to £7 million, nigerian 140 million, pakistan 128 million, ethiopia 120 million, yemen, 140 million. Five top class footballers. This assessment today comes from within the Civil Service that as a result of the 76 cuts in foreign aid to afghanistan, the Foreign Office will not be able to support Critical Services for women and girls. We know the situation for women and girls in afghanistan. Across africa, it said that reductions to the womens integrated Sexual Health programme would reduce protection for women with the number of unsafe abortions averted from 300,000 to 150,000. Maternal deaths will drop tojust over 1000 people. In 150,000. Maternal deaths will drop to just over 1000 people. In yemen, 500,000 women and children will not receive health care and fewer preventable will be avoided. As a code to sell, we sell arms to saudi arabia, somalia, the Foreign Office will have to delay this year and potentially stop altogether a programme to counter Female Genital Mutilation. I think weve got plenty to talk about here. Call 08085 909 693, text 85058. I have a great journalist on the line, a long time opponent of foreign aid for various reasons. Good morning. You have been a long time sceptic, you have written about this, can you explain why you have had profound doubts about the concept . About the concept . When i was travellin about the concept . When i was travelling around about the concept . When i was travelling around africa, about the concept . When i was travelling around africa, i about the concept . When i was travelling around africa, i do i about the concept . When i was. Travelling around africa, i do not start from the position that we should spend it at home rather than abroad, if foreign aid worked id be an enthusiast, but in three different continents i have seen the opposite of it working. It undermines countries. It props up some of the most repulsive regimes in the world, it fosters conflict and corruption and it does so because it undermines the essential growth of democracy which is a government can put its hand out to foreign donors it does not respond to the needs of local people. It undermines democracy. This is not only my view, this was also the view of professor angus deaton, the Noble Prize Winning Scottish Economist who invented the matrix for measuring global poverty and surprised everyone and saying the problem with foreign aid is we give it to countries that cannot handle it and it makes matters worse. This is typical flag waving it makes matters worse. This is typicalflag waving by it makes matters worse. This is typical flag waving by the aid industry, which is pushing to get some of its money back. We could look at the aid industry itself it has become a corrupt industry. Far too close relationship with government. Aid overall worldwide rose last year. 204 billion worldwide. An increase of 13 from hundred and 86 billion the year before, so the idea that a tiny cut to british aid is having catastrophic consequences is just nonsense at the same time, the aid industry has become a very Fat Cat Industry has become a very Fat Cat Industry where someone like the former Foreign Secretary can earn 1 million a year while pleading for funds well Save The Children. He is doing a big job, he funds well Save The Children. He is doing a bigjob, he has funds well Save The Children. He is doing a big job, he has a funds well Save The Children. He is doing a bigjob, he has a big is doing a big job, he has a big brain ina is doing a big job, he has a big brain in a big heart. He is doing a big job. Brain in a big heart. He is doing a bigjob. I brain in a big heart. He is doing a bi ob. , , i. Brain in a big heart. He is doing a bi ob. , i. , big job. I find it offensive you are be ulna big job. I find it offensive you are begging for big job. I find it offensive you are begging for money big job. I find it offensive you are begging for money to big job. I find it offensive you are begging for money to help big job. I find it offensive you are begging for money to help refugees, to help people when you are pocketing over 1 million a year and his salary has almost tripled in the short time that he has been doing it. Could he not get by on 500,000 a year . Why do Save The Children need 63 people on 6 figure salaries based on their london offices two gige 63 people on 6figure salaries based on their london offices two on their london offices two give me an example on their london offices two give me an example of on their london offices two give me an example of a on their london offices two give me an example of a repulsive on their london offices two give me an example of a repulsive regime. An example of a repulsive regime bolstered by foreign aid . Somalia i saw where the bolstered by foreign aid . Somalia i saw where the government, bolstered by foreign aid . Somalia i| saw where the government, private confidential papers were passed to me and they accepted that money was going into the hands of terrorists and that it would differ in their own money and bear in mind, somalia is the headquarters of the most Dangerous Branch of alqaeda in africa now according to the us. The classic example is afghanistan. People are talking today, britain gave £30 billion of aid during our time there to a country of 38 Million People, the us gave 1 trillion of aid. At that time, the us Special Envoy said aid was the number one Recruiting Tool for the taliban. Aid directly helped the growth of the taliban because it fostered a culture of corruption that meant that one minister was caught fleeing with 38 million in cash, hundred and 70 million a week or going out of the country in a place where the average income is 430 per capita, 430 a year. The reality is all our aid does is pumping in vast amounts of aid to an corrupt government and such was the corruption that people got so fed up of seeing what was going on, so fed up of seeing what was going on, so fed up at the blatant theft that the only beneficiaries where the Property Market in dubai. They turned to the taliban, our enemy. It turned to the taliban, our enemy. It turned out to be completely futile our involvement there. British soldiers died as a result of this in appalling situations, fighting for it because that was betrayed by their political masters. Yes, lets talk about afghanistan as much as we want, where aid corroded attempts at fostering government and led to the rebirth of the taliban, as admitted by the us investigators. Home rebirth of the taliban, as admitted by the us investigators. Rebirth of the taliban, as admitted by the us investigators. How do we save lives of by the us investigators. How do we save lives of women by the us investigators. How do we save lives of women and by the us investigators. How do we save lives of women and children. By the us investigators. How do we j save lives of women and children in africa, how do we fight the good fight against Genital Mutilation of females . How do we do that . Because of this cut in the budget, people will die. ,. , � � , will die. No, they wont, its nonsense. Will die. No, they wont, its nonsense, you will die. No, they wont, its nonsense, you are will die. No, they wont, its nonsense, you are falling i will die. No, they wont, its| nonsense, you are falling for will die. No, they wont, its nonsense, you are falling for the pr. If the aid budget globally, we are only one country giving aid, lets point out that norway, the largest donor in the world per capita is cutting eight, holland is cutting aid, they are spending it more wisely as a result. We could divert aid from ludicrous schemes and try to create a Business Culture in countries that the former africa minister said we dont know how to do. The money is there. The aid worldwide has grown. 13 the budget worldwide. If we want to help these countries, we should support democracy, we should genuinely support democracy and stop Pumping Money into rwanda, into countries where there are corrupt regimes, stop Pumping Money into uganda where there is a despotic regime causing untold misery. We are helping those regimes that are undermining democracy. We can do more ourselves. We could loosen our visa regime, we have a hostile almost racist visa regime, lets do more to help African Business people who want to come here and trade here rather than putting up barriers for them to come here. Lets tackle the corruption, the corrupt funds that come through our own banks and Property Markets thatis our own banks and Property Markets that is helped by our lawyers. We can tackle that corruption, that said, at home, but we do little about that to stop the laundering of funds which are being stolen out of these countries. We can do things ourselves. But actually we turn a blind eye and politicians pretend they are saintly because they are putting money into schemes which are aiding dictators. Putting money into schemes which are aiding dictators aiding dictators. Making ourselves feel aood aiding dictators. Making ourselves feel good about aiding dictators. Making ourselves feel good about ourselves. Aiding dictators. Making ourselves feel good about ourselves. This i aiding dictators. Making ourselves feel good about ourselves. This is| feel good about ourselves. This is very interesting. It is always stimulating reading your thoughts on this and hearing them. Interesting hearing them. Important, i guess. Keep the call is coming, call 08085 909 693, text 85058. Your thoughts, on the whole concept of foreign aid and helping people across the planet. Text 85058. Uk advocacy and Policy Leader for Christian Aid is coming up, you mentioned uganda, can we follow the money . It ends up in the hands of despots in appalling regimes with appalling human rights records. How does it work . Tell us about the flow of money. Records. How does it work . Tell us about the flow of money. Uganda was cau. Ht, about the flow of money. Uganda was caught. Uganda about the flow of money. Uganda was caught. Uganda is about the flow of money. Uganda was caught, uganda is very about the flow of money. Uganda was caught, uganda is very good about the flow of money. Uganda was caught, uganda is very good towardsl caught, uganda is very good towards other refugees and have a lot of refugees in their own country and they have a really been elephant and logical approach to referees coming in from south sudan. The dictator in charge who has been there since 1986 and is about to hand our to his repulsive son, he saw the opportunity to exploit this and inflated the numbers of refugees so they could get more money from the un and they were caught doing this. The real problem is it undermines democracy. This is the point made, by people who can see what is happening on the ground, if you put foreign money in, you undermine the need for that country to respond to the health and Education Needs of their own people. That is corrosive, a core fundamental problem with foreign aid. Go and look at a School Thatis foreign aid. Go and look at a school that is funded by british aid and it looks lovely and the people on the ground, i have total respect for aid workers who are doing their bit and really believe in what they are doing an art doing great work, but it is a systemic undermining of democracy and Good Governance and allows governments if they are getting money for their schools and hospitals to come from abroad, it allows them to spend more on weapons, more on security and more on putting it into the bank balance of the people in charge. We see that Time And Again. Of the people in charge. We see that Time And Again Time And Again. Finally for now, you make it sound Time And Again. Finally for now, you make it sound like Time And Again. Finally for now, you make it sound like a Time And Again. Finally for now, you make it sound like a rocket. Time and again. Finally for now, you make it sound like a rocket. Yes, i Time And Again. Finally for now, you| make it sound like a rocket. Yes, a racket. Make it sound like a rocket. Yes, a racket some make it sound like a rocket. Yes, a racket. Some of make it sound like a rocket. Yes, a racket. Some of the make it sound like a rocket. Yes, a racket. Some of the biggest make it sound like a rocket. Yes, a racket. Some of the biggest aid i a racket. Some of the biggest Aid Charities because a racket. Some of the biggest Aid Charities because there a racket. Some of the biggest Aid Charities because there brand a racket. Some of the biggest aid| charities because there brand had become so valuable that the had the most grotesque sexual abuse and theft to protect their brand. It is a racket. It is not to. The bill on the ground are acting to the best of intention and i have total respect for them but systemically, it has become a racket. It is backed by very naive politicians who want to look good, who want to look caring and compassionate, and they think by talking about this and maybe they will get one of the charities to look at somewhere they propose and they pose for nice pictures and fly the flag abroad, the reality is it is often disastrous and propping up some of the worlds worst regimes around the world. Liii< the worlds worst regimes around the world. ,. ,. , the worlds worst regimes around the world. ,. ,. , world. Uk advocacy and Policy Leader at Christian Aid, world. Uk advocacy and Policy Leader at Christian Aid, can world. Uk advocacy and Policy Leader at Christian Aid, can you world. Uk advocacy and Policy Leader at Christian Aid, can you come world. Uk advocacy and Policy Leader at Christian Aid, can you come back. At Christian Aid, can you come back on that . It is quite a litany, we have heard it before, i am sure you have heard it before, i am sure you have encountered these arguments. Good morning. How do you respond . Good morning. How do you respond . Good morning. How do you respond . Good morning. Its hard, as you say, it is a good morning. Its hard, as you say, it is a long good morning. Its hard, as you say, it is a long list good morning. Its hard, as you say, it is a long list of reflections and accusations around the way foreign aid is accusations around the way foreign aid is delivered. I do not recognise any of aid is delivered. I do not recognise any of the aid is delivered. I do not recognise any of the accounts of your previous callen any of the accounts of your previous callen in any of the accounts of your previous caller. In fact, at Christian Aid, at the caller. In fact, at Christian Aid, at the organisation i work for and represent, at the organisation i work for and represent, a lot of the foreign aid money represent, a lot of the foreign aid money that we deliver goes through local organisations under an agenda called local organisations under an agenda called localisation. You will find that Christian Aid, aid workers based that Christian Aid, aid workers based in that Christian Aid, aid workers based in london or anywhere across europe based in london or anywhere across europe are based in london or anywhere across europe are not the ones supporting communities with foreign aid, it is our aid communities with foreign aid, it is our aid workers that are based in our aid workers that are based in our country our aid workers that are based in our country offices, our country programme, so for example, in south sudan programme, so for example, in south sudan we programme, so for example, in south sudan we have south sudan aid workers sudan we have south sudan aid workers working with the pure communities, they understand those communities, they understand those communities, they understand the environment, these speak the language, they are able to build connections with communities to deliver connections with communities to deliver Christian Aid in a way that someone deliver Christian Aid in a way that someone like me in london with little someone like me in london with little experience could not. That is the reality little experience could not. That is the reality of how most foreign aid is actually the reality of how most foreign aid is actually delivered on the grid which is actually delivered on the grid which is is actually delivered on the grid which is why i cannot recognise the account which is why i cannot recognise the account of which is why i cannot recognise the account of your previous caller. We have no account of your previous caller. Have no control over where it goes. We know the arguments, some of her listeners and viewers do not subscribe to them, some people think we have so many problems in this country we should attend to those first, the arguments are strong for an interconnected and compassionate world, our moral duty and responsibility, soft power, fostering relations, encouraging trade, and also in stirling if its not patronising, instilling values, some of our values for example, Female Genital Mutilation is horrific. These are all window under strict arguments. What about transparency . What control . What about knowing making sure it does not end up in a Swiss Bank Account . The figures for uk aid specifically and the the figures for uk aid specifically and the transparency Regulatory Framework around uk delivery has always framework around uk delivery has always scored incredibly highly. We are incredibly. Uk aid infrastructure is incredibly well regarded around the world for transparency and clarity and follow through. It is unfortunate that case follow through. It is unfortunate that case studies that are often presented in certain sections of the media presented in certain sections of the media are presented in certain sections of the media are easily accessible and digestible and therefore picked up and portrayed as though that reflects and portrayed as though that reflects the whole of the aid system when reflects the whole of the aid system when in reflects the whole of the aid system when in fact the reality could not be further when in fact the reality could not be further from the truth. If you did a be further from the truth. If you did a deep be further from the truth. If you did a Deep Dive Dissection of the transparency of a delivery you will find that transparency of a delivery you will find that a transparency of a delivery you will find that a lot of the case studies that are find that a lot of the case studies that are referenced are few and far between that are referenced are few and far between. , ~ that are referenced are few and far between. ~. , ~. , between. Talking about africa, an interestin between. Talking about africa, an interesting message between. Talking about africa, an interesting message which between. Talking about africa, an interesting message which i between. Talking about africa, an interesting message which i will. Interesting message which i will come to in a second, talking about the situation in afghanistan, yemen, somalia, those countries where it is said to date, the contention is people will die as a result of the cuts in foreign aid. I said a few minutes ago, i put the point to ian, he said i had fallen for the propaganda. It he said i had fallen for the prepaganda he said i had fallen for the roa~anda. , , propaganda. It would be interesting to know what propaganda. It would be interesting to know what parts propaganda. It would be interesting to know what parts of propaganda. It would be interesting to know what parts of africa, propaganda. It would be interesting to know what parts of africa, we i propaganda. It would be interesting| to know what parts of africa, we are talking to know what parts of africa, we are talking about 53 countries, what part of talking about 53 countries, what part of africa all these Different Countries part of africa all these Different Countries that people are actually into, countries that people are actually into, visited, understand the history. Into, visited, understand the history, and the culture, to make sweeping history, and the culture, to make sweeping generalisations about what foreign sweeping generalisations about what foreign aid does and does not deliven foreign aid does and does not deliver. The reality is that across the world, deliver. The reality is that across the world, across the african continent the world, across the african continent specifically, there are huge continent specifically, there are huge challenges with access to health. Huge challenges with access to health, education, access to things that we health, education, access to things that we take for granted here in the uk, basic that we take for granted here in the uk, basic food security. The images that people uk, basic food security. The images that people will see on television, own charity adverts, are not manufactured, they are the lives of people. Manufactured, they are the lives of people, they are real. You cannot dispute people, they are real. You cannot dispute what you see. In front of you dispute what you see. In front of you i dispute what you see. In front of you. I would strongly recommend for listeners you. I would strongly recommend for listeners that maybe dont believe it, listeners that maybe dont believe it. To listeners that maybe dont believe it. To go listeners that maybe dont believe it, to go and see it for themselves. My colleagues work on the ground see it, my colleagues work on the ground see it. This my colleagues work on the ground see it. This is my colleagues work on the ground see it. This is not my colleagues work on the ground see it, this is not fabricated, this is the lives it, this is not fabricated, this is the lives of it, this is not fabricated, this is the lives of people. Live it, this is not fabricated, this is the lives of people. It, this is not fabricated, this is the lives of people. Live aid and comic relief, the lives of people. Live aid and comic relief, we the lives of people. Live aid and comic relief, we do the lives of people. Live aid and comic relief, we do it, the lives of people. Live aid and comic relief, we do it, we the lives of people. Live aid and comic relief, we do it, we see i the lives of people. Live aid and comic relief, we do it, we see itj the lives of people. Live aid and i comic relief, we do it, we see it we enjoy it, but it doesnt do much good. Lets talk to angela and cardiff, good morning, everyone. Anthony, can you go first . Good morning, what would you like to see. My morning, what would you like to see. My point is we pay so little, i pay so little in tax that goes to overseas aid, i remember a breakdown of my tax from last year, the last tax year, 0. 5 of tax was spent on overseas aid, and given that ip about £7,000 a year in tax, it was £38 a year. Some people may think thatis £38 a year. Some people may think that is too much, but now they want to reduce that and i think its embarrassing. Im appalled sometimes to be a part of this country and a member of this country because i just think it is really embarrassing that so little of my money goes to help Vulnerable People abroad. I recognise that there is corruption, i recognise that the situation is not ideal. I recognise that the situation is not ideal i recognise that the situation is notideal. ,. , f~ i recognise that the situation is not ideal. ,. , f~ , not ideal. How much of your 38 p. £38 a year not ideal. How much of your 38 p. £38 a year how not ideal. How much of your 38 p. £38 a year. How much not ideal. How much of your 38 p. £38 a year. How much of not ideal. How much of your 38 p. £38 a year. How much of your not ideal. How much of your 38 p. £38 a year. How much of your £38 i not ideal. How much of your 38 p. | £38 a year. How much of your £38 a ear is £38 a year. How much of your £38 a year is being £38 a year. How much of your £38 a year is being well £38 a year. How much of your £38 a year is being well spent . £38 a year. How much of your £38 a year is being well spent . It £38 a year. How much of your £38 a year is being well spent . It is £38 a year. How much of your £38 a year is being well spent . It is a year is being well spent . It is a oint year is being well spent . It is a point and year is being well spent . It is a point and i year is being well spent . It is a point and i agree year is being well spent . It is a point and i agree with year is being well spent . It is a point and i agree with that, year is being well spent . It is a. Point and i agree with that, even if, lets say, i dont know, 20 of that 38p as well spent, at least £8 of my tax per year is going to help some people. Ijust think shirley thatis some people. Ijust think shirley that is better than nothing. Surely we can do something. I recognise the situation is not ideal, but surely in this country we must be able to do a betterjob. There are people who can afford to pay more tax, we as a country can afford to pay more which would go to help the most Vulnerable People in the world. Angela and cardiff. I Vulnerable People in the world. Angela and cardiff. Angela and cardiff. I have two oints, i angela and cardiff. I have two points, i stepped angela and cardiff. I have two points, i stepped down angela and cardiff. I have two points, i stepped down as angela and cardiff. I have two | points, i stepped down as ceo angela and cardiff. I have two i points, i stepped down as ceo of angela and cardiff. I have two points, i stepped down as ceo of a charity points, i stepped down as ceo of a charity trying to stop women dying in dignity charity trying to stop women dying in dignity and childbirth in africa, 300,000 in dignity and childbirth in africa, 300,000 women die every year and 99 of those 300,000 women die every year and 99 of those are 300,000 women die every year and 99 of those are avoidable. We have been supporting of those are avoidable. We have been supporting eerily own, sierra leone supporting eerily own, sierra leone. What we have done according to the leone. What we have done according to the Ministry Of Health has helped to the Ministry Of Health has helped to reduce to the Ministry Of Health has helped to reduce child death to one fifth of what to reduce child death to one fifth of what they would before we started there of what they would before we started there we of what they would before we started there. We provide medication, and midwives there. We provide medication, and midwives to do training. Until august midwives to do training. Until august of midwives to do training. Until august of last year we had no paid staff august of last year we had no paid staff it august of last year we had no paid staff. It was all done on a voluntary basis. Now we have a paid member voluntary basis. Now we have a paid member of voluntary basis. Now we have a paid member of staff. She is actually currently member of staff. She is actually currently there, but the thing is, the big currently there, but the thing is, the Big Organisations are not seeing well and the Big Organisations are not seeing well and this countries. I visited 36 times, well and this countries. I visited 36 times, i well and this countries. I visited 36 times, i have a handle on the situation 36 times, i have a handle on the situation, and what i constantly hear situation, and what i constantly hear is situation, and what i constantly hear is the situation, and what i constantly hear is the Big Organisations who have hear is the Big Organisations who have been hear is the Big Organisations who have been here for years, your little have been here for years, your little organisation comes in with nothing. Little organisation comes in with nothing, and look at the difference youve nothing, and look at the difference youve made. To be able to access funds youve made. To be able to access funds from youve made. To be able to access funds from the government etc is like jumping through hoops of fire for a little like jumping through hoops of fire for a little organisation. And yet we are for a little organisation. And yet we are clearly according to the countries we are clearly according to the countries we work in, the most effective countries we work in, the most effective in countries we work in, the most effective in dealing with this tragedy of child death. Do effective in dealing with this tragedy of child death. Do you see the Big Organisations, tragedy of child death. Do you see the Big Organisations, not tragedy of child death. Do you see the Big Organisations, not to the Big Organisations, not to disparage anyone who is doing fantastic work, do you see them rolling in and then land yes. When i was saying my goodbyes in april yes. When i was saying my goodbyes in april in yes. When i was saying my goodbyes in april in africa, on the main road to freetown in april in africa, on the main road to freetown, i have to name the organisation because it is there, Save Organisation because it is there, save the organisation because it is there, Save The Children has got a new building. Save the children has got a new building, goodness knows how much it cost, but building, goodness knows how much it cost, but what we do is in the slum areas cost, but what we do is in the slum areas and cost, but what we do is in the slum areas and it cost, but what we do is in the slum areas and it is no different now than areas and it is no different now than it areas and it is no different now than it was areas and it is no different now than it was shown on the john bishop clip ten than it was shown on the john bishop clip ten or than it was shown on the john bishop clip ten or ii than it was shown on the john bishop clip ten or 11 years ago on comic relief. Clip ten or 11 years ago on comic relief, children washing in water for the relief, children washing in water for the pigs where, nothing has changed for the pigs where, nothing has changed at all, and we have had to fund the changed at all, and we have had to fund the replacement of a Vaccine Fridge fund the replacement of a Vaccine Fridge because they cant get it done fridge because they cant get it done locally by the Big Organisations. Done locally by the Big Organisations. This is very interesting. Organisations. This is very interesting. I organisations. This is very interesting. I want organisations. This is very interesting. I want to organisations. This is very interesting. I want to ask| organisations. This is very i interesting. I want to ask ian organisations. This is very interesting. I want to ask ian about this, obviously Save The Children are not here to defend themselves. What is your second point . What is your second point . People sa we what is your second point . People say we have what is your second point . People say we have enough what is your second point . People say we have enough problems what is your second point . People say we have enough problems in i what is your second point . People l say we have enough problems in this country. Say we have enough problems in this country, yes, we do, but they are not seeing country, yes, we do, but they are not seeing the bigger picture. People not seeing the bigger picture. People are fleeing these poor countries to get to the uk, if we could countries to get to the uk, if we could enrich these countries by keeping could enrich these countries by keeping mother is alive and children alive. Keeping mother is alive and children alive, people would not want leave and risk alive, people would not want leave and risk their lives in boats etc and risk their lives in boats etc and it and risk their lives in boats etc and it would help to solve the Immigration Problem here. Thats interesting. Immigration problem here. Thats interesting, the Immigration Problem here. Thats interesting, the people Immigration Problem here. Thats interesting, the people against i interesting, the people against immigration are also against foreign aid, it is a paradox. Im not accusing ian of that, he is coming from an intellectual position, not some visceral possession. Can you respond to what angela said . The big foreign aid ngos and the small ones. I take my hat off to people who are trying to make a difference like that and i respect what they do. Likewise, we talk about the cars, they are a symbol of this, when i was in haiti after the earthquake, he was selling 250 Land Cruisers a month and was doing very well thanks to all the foreign aid. Look month and was doing very well thanks to all the foreign aid. To all the foreign aid. Look what haened to all the foreign aid. Look what happened in to all the foreign aid. Look what happened in haiti to all the foreign aid. Look what happened in haiti with to all the foreign aid. Look what happened in haiti with the to all the foreign aid. Look what happened in haiti with the red l happened in haiti with the red cross happened in haiti with the red cross. Eight houses were built. Half 1 cross. Eight houses were built. Half si billion cross. Eight houses were built. Half 1 billion went in there. Haiti cross. Eight houses were built. Half 1 billion went in there. 1 billion went in there. Haiti was a disaster. 1 billion went in there. Haiti was a disaster. It 1 billion went in there. Haiti was a disaster, it has 1 billion went in there. Haiti was a disaster, it has had 1 billion went in there. Haiti was a disaster, it has had more 1 billion went in there. Haiti was a disaster, it has had more aid i 1 billion went in there. Haiti was i a disaster, it has had more aid than any other country per capita in the world, it is known as the Republic Of Ngos and government has got progressively worse and it is now riven with Gang Violence. Its in a terrible situation. Look at what happened with all the money raised by the earthquake and how badly it was spent. I went there two years after the earthquake and people were living under plastic in horrific circumstances who had lost their homes while the aid groups running around telling people what to do, failing to build houses and then develop a community that was outside of town where people could not get into town to access schools and hospitals. Into town to access schools and hos itals. � into town to access schools and hositals. �. , , into town to access schools and hositals. �. ,. , into town to access schools and hositals. �. ,. ,. , hospitals. And abusing local people. I want to hospitals. And abusing local people. I want to bring hospitals. And abusing local people. I want to bring other hospitals. And abusing local people. I want to bring other people hospitals. And abusing local people. I want to bring other people in. I want to bring other people in. This is very interesting. Linda is in doncaster, you lived in zambia, what is your experience . This in doncaster, you lived in zambia, what is your experience . In doncaster, you lived in zambia, what is your experience . This is my first time picking what is your experience . This is my first time picking up what is your experience . This is my first time picking up a what is your experience . This is my first time picking up a telephone,. What is your experience . This is my first time picking up a telephone, i | first time picking up a telephone, i did live in zambia, yes. I have also lived in singapore, my dad lived in saudi arabia, in yemen, and my dad brought me up to say. I am now 63, this is going back some years and my dad firmly believed and he had a lot to do with governments and he was in the army for 32 years, when we lived in zambia, we were in a 25 kilometre of the main road in country, so we were near the local villages, the shantytowns, and these people had nothing. Absolutely nothing. And then theyd come knocking at your door, and wanting money, wanting jobs, for money, we had one who unfortunately any wages he got, he got drunk and he stabbed and killed his wife. And came knocking on the door the next morning to go back to work. Did door the next morning to go back to work. ,. ,. ,. ,. , work. Did the money go to the people who needed work. Did the money go to the people who needed the work. Did the money go to the people who needed the money . Not 1p. Ive told my children, my two sons, to tell all of their friends, they are aghast. They have never given to comic relief, ever. Because that. I didnt give to live aid. That is how strongly i feel. I would help anyone, live aid. That is how strongly i feel. Iwould help anyone, id live aid. That is how strongly i feel. I would help anyone, id give money to donkeys. Feel. I would help anyone, id give money to donkeys. What about all the aood work money to donkeys. What about all the good work that money to donkeys. What about all the good work that comic money to donkeys. What about all the good work that comic relief money to donkeys. What about all the good work that comic relief and money to donkeys. What about all the good work that comic relief and live | good work that comic relief and live aid do . People are helped, its not perfect, but. If aid do . People are helped, its not perfect. But. Perfect, but. If only we could guarantee perfect, but. If only we could guarantee the perfect, but. If only we could guarantee the money perfect, but. If only we could guarantee the money goes perfect, but. If only we could guarantee the money goes to i perfect, but. If only we could i guarantee the money goes to the proper people. You guarantee the money goes to the proper people guarantee the money goes to the | proper people i proper people. You can, with us. I am auoin proper people. You can, with us. I am going to proper people. You can, with us. I am going to bring proper people. You can, with us. I am going to bring in proper people. You can, with us. I am going to bring in andrew. Proper people. You can, with us. I am going to bring in andrew. Andrew, in tottenham. A good cause. Andrew, you want to take issue with ian, i think . The retired ceo of one of the ngos. Good morning, andrew. What would you like to say . Would you like to say . Action on poverty works would you like to say . Action on poverty works in would you like to say . Action on poverty works in subsaharan i would you like to say . Action on poverty works in subSaharan Africa, poverty works in sub Saharan Africa, the point i want to take issue with is the point that money from the International Aid budget goes into the pockets of politicians. Afghanistan was a case apart. We all know the political reasons why what was done there was done. But the fact is, the vast majority of the International Aid is incredibly closely scrutinised by the uk government. I have had grants for International Projects and also in the Charity Sector for uk projects. The scrutiny that goes on at the International Level is far stricter than the scrutiny that takes place in the uk for grants to go out to a whole range of different charities in the uk. The money goes straight from the uk charities, into local organisations. Im not one to defend Save The Children, but they are a case in point, they work with local partners to see that things are put on the applications are delivered directly to local communities. Across a whole range of different areas. Action 0n poverty, is a project are developing camel milk dairies in sub Saharan Africa that basically keep thousands and thousands of children alive who would otherwise die of malnutrition and starvation. This narrative that when people give to a charity, or uk aid supports an International Charity that it ends up in a flat in dubai, that is just nonsense. Its a dog whistle kind of approach to politics, and it is really, really sad. Because it then hinders good people from supporting really important and valuable projects in some of the poorest parts of the world. Id some of the poorest parts of the world. � ~. , some of the poorest parts of the world. � ~. ,. , world. Id like to get some engagement world. Id like to get some engagement from world. Id like to get some engagement from ian world. Id like to get some engagement from ian but | world. Id like to get some i engagement from ian but we world. Id like to get some engagement from ian but we need world. Id like to get some engagement from ian but we need to go to the news and sport. If you could hang around. [30 go to the news and sport. If you could hang around. Go to the news and sport. If you could hang around. Do you want me to sta . Could hang around. Do you want me to stay . Everyone could hang around. Do you want me to stay . Everyone is could hang around. Do you want me to stay . Everyone is welcome. Could hang around. Do you want me to stay . Everyone is welcome. Green could hang around. Do you want me to j stay . Everyone is welcome. Green ago i have one stay . Everyone is welcome. Green ago i have one more stay . Everyone is welcome. Green ago i have one more point stay . Everyone is welcome. Green ago i have one more point to stay . Everyone is welcome. Green ago i have one more point to make. I have one more point to make. Andrew, its important that we hear from you as a counterbalance. Many more comments coming in. But now it is time for the news. Foreign aid money, well spent . Answer that question for us this morning. Here is the news. Donald trump is facing more criminal charges, this time in connection with his attempts to cling to power after losing the 2020 election. He is accused of dishonesty, fraud and deceit. He has called the indictment ridiculous. A Foreign Office document has revealed that cuts to overseas a to could harm thousands of women and children in africa, and may result in deaths. Some of the money is being diverted to provide housing for refugees in the uk. The government says funding will increase. The Pop Star Lizzo is being sued by three of her former dancers, they accuse the singer of Sexual Harassment and creating a hostile work environment. Lizzo has not commented on the allegations. And the government will outline plans to ban cold calling to offer Financial Services or products. They say it often scams Vulnerable People and costs the uk economy £750 million in the last year. Now the sport. New line worker at the womens football world cup, south africa currently lead italy to one. South africa need to win that much to progress to the last 16. Any other group match, it is argentina 01 other group match, it is argentina 0 1 sweden. Jurgen klopp says it is not helpful that the Transfer Window is open for three weeks longer in saudi arabia than in europe. The transfer deadline in the european top leagues is in the 21st of september, but in saudi arabia it runs to the 20th of the month. Sadio mane is the latest big name Player Tojoin Mane is the latest big name player to join the mane is the latest Big Name Player Tojoin The Saudi Pro League mane is the latest big name player to join the Saudi Pro League after leaving bayern munich. Chelsea have signed Leslie Ugochukwu for £23 million. Manager Marussia Pochettino has indicated the 19 year old may be loaned out immediately. And in cricket, the defending mens champions, the trent rockets, won a thriller against the southern brave. In the corresponding womens victory, trent got the victory. Commentary is on five sport extra. Fascinating conversations on foreign aid. Is it money well spent . Let me tell you what is happening at ten oclock, you have an opportunity to have your say on the big news stories and the issues, and a massive one is coming up at ten oclock, a sensitive one coming up, really important, and we are talking about it because you asked us to talk about it. You might remember the conversation about womens incontinence in may. A huge reaction to that. It was quite incredible. Honest callers. Some people said, why arent we talking about men . It affects one in ten men. Is it even more of a stigma than women . There were calls last week for incontinent pad bins in public loos. We have incredible experts to answer questions. It is a hard want to open up questions. It is a hard want to open up about, but its important to talk about male incontinence. Thats coming up at ten oclock. Its really good that people who have worked with ngos in africa and other places, who have worked and are working are getting in touch about the conversation about foreign aid. Beryl is a long time critic to it. And we have a former scriptwriter for david cameron. A man of letters. Andrew and tottenham, we drag you overfrom before andrew and tottenham, we drag you over from before the news and sport, because you said some really interesting stuff, given your own experience. Expand on one point before we get you to respond. You say when you hear the likes of ians arguments, is thought through as they are, you described them as a kind of dog whistle commander . Weill. Kind of dog whistle commander . Well, it is. Its kind of dog whistle commander . Well, it is its very kind of dog whistle commander . Well, it is. Its very easy kind of dog whistle commander . Well, it is. Its very easy to, kind of dog whistle commander . Well, it is. Its very easy to, with it is. Its very easy to, with extreme stories and highlight money thatis extreme stories and highlight money that is not being well spent, even in the nhs, we can always come up with examples of why people are on the salaries all those salaries. But the salaries all those salaries. But the bigger point is the fact that millions and millions of children, People Living in poverty, they are supported through uk donors, through members of the public, through the government. And it is really sad that people want to focus on the few small issues that there are, undoubtedly, and they need to be sorted out, in what is obviously a very big operation nationally and globally. To help some of the poorest people in the world. That is unarguable. Poorest people in the world. That is unarguable, isnt poorest people in the world. That is unarguable, isnt it . Poorest people in the world. That is unarguable, isnt it . People poorest people in the world. That is unarguable, isnt it . People are unarguable, isnt it . People are being helped . I unarguable, isnt it . People are being helped . Being helped . I dont see the colla se being helped . I dont see the collapse of being helped . I dont see the collapse of the being helped . I dont see the collapse of the taliban being helped . I dont see the collapse of the taliban into i being helped . I dont see the. Collapse of the taliban into the Hands Collapse of the taliban into the hands of collapse of the taliban into the hands of the taliban as a small issue. Hands of the taliban as a small issue. Or hands of the taliban as a small issue, orthe hands of the taliban as a small issue, or the collapse of haiti into gang issue, or the collapse of haiti into Gang Violence as a small issue, i dont Gang Violence as a small issue, i dont see Gang Violence as a small issue, i dont see it Gang Violence as a small issue, i dont see it as a dog whistle when you see dont see it as a dog whistle when you see the dont see it as a dog whistle when you see the systemic theft that was going you see the systemic theft that was going on you see the systemic theft that was going on due to aid in afghanistan, which going on due to aid in afghanistan, which was going on due to aid in afghanistan, which was proven unseen, and recorded which was proven unseen, and recorded. The sums involved were extreme recorded. The sums involved were extreme i recorded. The sums involved were extreme. I dont see it as a dog whistle extreme. I dont see it as a dog whistle. Rory stewart points out that e5 whistle. Rory stewart points out that £5 million has gone into malawi. That £5 million has gone into malawi, but it hasnt got any better~ malawi, but it hasnt got any better. Why not . I dont see it as better. Why not . Idont see it as a do better. Why not . I dont see it as a dog whistle better. Why not . I dont see it as a dog whistle when the government giving dog whistle when the government giving the money admits it is going into the giving the money admits it is going into the arms of an alqaeda Offshoot Into The Arms of an alqaeda offshoot in somalia. I dont see these offshoot in somalia. I dont see these as offshoot in somalia. I dont see these as dog whistle issues. The fundamental point which people are not engaging with is that there is a systemic not engaging with is that there is a systemic problem with aid that, by going systemic problem with aid that, by going into systemic problem with aid that, by going into these fragile countries, it is actually doing untold damage. It is undermining attempts to improve it is undermining attempts to improve the governance, to improve the schools. Improve the governance, to improve the schools, to improve the hospitals, to improve the facilities, because it is propping up facilities, because it is propping up regimes and funding, giving them funds up regimes and funding, giving them funds for up regimes and funding, giving them funds for those services, so that they funds for those services, so that they dont funds for those services, so that they dont have to respond to the local they dont have to respond to the local populations and they can spend more local populations and they can spend more on local populations and they can spend more on arms and they can spend more on putting more on arms and they can spend more on putting money into their own Bank Balances on putting money into their own Bank Balances. You on putting money into their own Bank Balances. ,. ,. , balances. You have the local populations balances. You have the local populations in balances. You have the local populations in their balances. You have the local populations in their boots, l balances. You have the local populations in their boots, if balances. You have the local populations in their boots, if you stop putting money in, they are not going to say, we are not getting that money any more, we will improve our governments. Fleeting that money any more, we will improve our governments. Our governments. Why dont we talk about somalia . Our governments. Why dont we talk about somalia . Somaliland our governments. Why dont we talk about somalia . Somaliland was about somalia . Somaliland was fascinating, it was unrecognised, a little fascinating, it was unrecognised, a little corner, a former British Colony little corner, a former British Colony of little corner, a former British Colony of one of the most troubled corners colony of one of the most troubled corners of colony of one of the most troubled corners of the world, it did not get any aid corners of the world, it did not get any aid so corners of the world, it did not get any aid so they have to come to their any aid so they have to come to their own any aid so they have to come to their own solution. There was a huge debate their own solution. There was a huge debate over their own solution. There was a huge debate over a tiny amount of income raised debate over a tiny amount of income raised from debate over a tiny amount of income raised from an airport in one corner of the raised from an airport in one corner of the country. The tribal elders ot of the country. The tribal elders got together, they came up with a system got together, they came up with a system of got together, they came up with a system of democracy, and they developed a place where there were such good developed a place where there were such Good Governance that they had elections such Good Governance that they had elections that were so close, there were elections that were so close, there were only elections that were so close, there were only 80 votes in it, and they changed were only 80 votes in it, and they changed hands peaceably. They developed the best Maternity Hospital possibly in africa, when a woman hospital possibly in africa, when a woman who set it up herself, she took woman who set it up herself, she took great woman who set it up herself, she took great pride in the fact they did it took great pride in the fact they did it themselves come off their own backs. Did it themselves come off their own backs, without any foreign help. She actually backs, without any foreign help. She actually advocated the fact, you go there. Actually advocated the fact, you go there. I actually advocated the fact, you go there, i visited there, and actually advocated the fact, you go there, ivisited there, and it actually advocated the fact, you go there, i visited there, and it took immense there, i visited there, and it took immense pride, the fact that they have done immense pride, the fact that they have done all of this themselves, they developed democracy, they developed a good health system, all on their developed a good health system, all on their own. Developed a good health system, all on their own on their own. Through their own selfdetermination. On their own. Through their own selfdetermination. Hang on their own. Through their own selfdetermination. Hang on, i on their own. Through their own i selfdetermination. Hang on, now on their own. Through their own selfdetermination. Hang on, now the aid industry has selfdetermination. Hang on, now the aid industry has moved selfdetermination. Hang on, now the aid industry has moved in selfdetermination. Hang on, now the aid industry has moved in and aid industry has moved in and actually aid industry has moved in and actually violence has certainly taken actually violence has certainly taken off and everything. Suddenly the foreign money has gone and the squabbling over who gets access to it, squabbling over who gets access to it. With squabbling over who gets access to it, with people being displaced, losing it, with people being displaced, losing their homes, violence and death losing their homes, violence and death its losing their homes, violence and death. Its a really good example of why it death. Its a really good example of why it is death. Its a really good example of why it is better to let people come up why it is better to let people come up with why it is better to let people come up with their own solutions, the damage up with their own solutions, the damage done by aid. Empowering, yes. Andrew, damage done by aid. Empowering, yes. Andrew. M damage done by aid. Empowering, yes. Andrew. Ive got damage done by aid. Empowering, yes. Andrew, ive got to damage done by aid. Empowering, yes. Andrew, ive got to let damage done by aid. Empowering, yes. Andrew, ive got to let you damage done by aid. Empowering, yes. Andrew, ive got to let you come andrew, ive got to let you come back on that and we will bring in angela for another point, and anne in york is going tojoin us. Andrew, they are not isolated examples . I think to quote cases like afghanistan and somaliland is really rich, because the vast majority of the Uk Aid Budget is not spent in places like that. It is spent in places like that. It is spent in places like that. It is spent in places like across sub Saharan Africa, in countries where local communities are working in partnership, being supported. The project i quoted earlier is an action on poverty project, it enables camel milk are to be used to keep thousands of children healthy and fed. If the charity withdrew from the project, and the project had not been funded, those children would die of starvation. Do we sit back and say, across a whole swathe of southern Saharan Africa, it is up to these, as ian admits, corrupt governments to sort it out . What is his solution . Those countries and those peoples, the somaliland example i would suggest is really not atypical example. Ive worked in asia as well and we know those communities dont have the kind of resources that would enable the kind of life changing programmes that uk aid money enables. They dont have the resources to make those kinds of things happen. So the overall balance, yes, there are some in the minus column, but the overall balance of uk aid to spend on what the British Public give to international charities, live aid being another example, going back into ancient history now, but it is massively positive. Yes, you can always say lets talk about a few bad and negative examples from the wide scope of things, but to the general effect is hugely positive, and the government does � s own report admits that this cut is going to cost lives. If that was your family, living in Northern Kenya and your children will being supported by uk aid projects, and you were sitting there and heard the news that uk aid was going to be slashed, would you be just rubbing your hands with glee and saying, well, thats fantastic, because we are now going to be able to sort out our own futures without hindrance from the uk aid industry . I dont think you would. D0 uk aid industry . I dont think you would. ,. ,. , uk aid industry . I dont think you would. ,. ,. , would. Do you want me to answer . Well, ou would. Do you want me to answer . Well. You got would. Do you want me to answer . Well, you got asked would. Do you want me to answer . Well, you got asked the would. Do you want me to answer . Well, you got asked the question. | well, you got asked the question. The simple fact is that aid overall globally the simple fact is that aid overall globally is going up, but its gone up globally is going up, but its gone up from globally is going up, but its gone up from £186 billion, up to £204 billion up from £186 billion, up to £204 billion so up from £186 billion, up to £204 billion. So aid is not being cut. British billion. So aid is not being cut. British aid billion. So aid is not being cut. British aid is coming down, like norwegian and dutch aid, but overall. Norwegian and dutch aid, but overall, aid is rising. Actually, my ideas. Overall, aid is rising. Actually, my ideas. I overall, aid is rising. Actually, my ideas, i began to develop them after being ideas, i began to develop them after being in ideas, i began to develop them after being in africa and hearing the concerns being in africa and hearing the concerns of people who were not in the aid concerns of people who were not in the aid industry, of people on the ground the aid industry, of people on the ground who were saying, look at what is happening. All of these people come is happening. All of these people come here with their white Saviour Ideas come here with their white Saviour Ideas and come here with their white Saviour Ideas and actually they are not doing ideas and actually they are not doing any ideas and actually they are not doing any good, and it is going to the wrong doing any good, and it is going to the wrong people, or its being used for local the wrong people, or its being used for local purposes. We talk about live for local purposes. We talk about live aid for local purposes. We talk about live aid as for local purposes. We talk about live aid as though it is a Great Success live aid as though it is a Great Success. But actually, food aid was used success. But actually, food aid was used by success. But actually, food aid was used by the success. But actually, food aid was used by the government, the marxist government behind the regime, it used government behind the regime, it used the government behind the regime, it used the food aid to relocate people where used the food aid to relocate people where one used the food aid to relocate people where one in six of them died, in these where one in six of them died, in these forced relocations. So food aid from these forced relocations. So food aid from live aid was actually used as a tool aid from live aid was actually used as a tool of aid from live aid was actually used as a tool of repression to force people as a tool of repression to force people out of their homes. Its very stark people out of their homes. Its very stark the people out of their homes. Its very stark. The reality is people died because stark. The reality is people died because of conflict, because of this corruption because of conflict, because of this corruption. You ask what we can do, simple. Corruption. You ask what we can do, simple. We corruption. You ask what we can do, simple, we can tackle the corruption which simple, we can tackle the corruption which washes through our own banks, which which washes through our own banks, which washes through our own banks, which washes through our own banks, which washes through our own tax havens which washes through our own tax havens we which washes through our own tax havens. We can do things, we can loosen havens. We can do things, we can loosen our havens. We can do things, we can loosen our Visa Policies to help people loosen our Visa Policies to help people who want to do business. Let me people who want to do business. Lent me take people who want to do business. Me take you people who want to do business. Let me take you to angela and anne in york, and pete in nottingham. Anne, mark and pete are coming up, angela is coming back. Anne, you worked as an ngo in cambodia and turkey. Where are you in the conversation . What are you in the conversation . What im auoin are you in the conversation . What im going to are you in the conversation . What im going to talk are you in the conversation . What im going to talk about are you in the conversation . What im going to talk about very are you in the conversation . Twat im going to talk about very briefly isjust that i im going to talk about very briefly is just that i was out in cambodia in 2007, setting up a Reading Programme on behalf of the european union. And i was out there for several months. What i found was that the major donors such as the world bank, unesco, Save The Children, bill gatess organisation, they were not working together. So we had different priorities. So, my key priority was to set up a Reading Programme across the country. And when i went to see what the other ngos and the other Big Organisations were doing, their strategic plans and their priorities were very different. My point is that there was a quick win here, although the organisations work slowly and independently, in my experience, i think that there is an opportunity to look at a collective approach, a collective accountability, to get some of these programmes really embedded in the country. Excellent oint. Pete embedded in the country. Excellent point pete in embedded in the country. Excellent point. Pete in nottingham, embedded in the country. Excellent point. Pete in nottingham, you point. Pete in nottingham, you worked in africa over 20 years. What do you think of this . Do you think of this . Well, first Hand Experience do you think of this . Well, first Hand Experience tells do you think of this . Well, first Hand Experience tells me do you think of this . Well, first Hand Experience tells me that i do you think of this . Well, first | Hand Experience tells me that it doesnt Hand Experience tells me that it doesnt get to where it is going to come doesnt get to where it is going to come aid~ doesnt get to where it is going to come aid. Ill give you an example. Iwas come aid. Ill give you an example. I was in come aid. Ill give you an example. I was in a come aid. Ill give you an example. I was in a position where. Well, ive i was in a position where. Well, ive got i was in a position where. Well, ive got refugees in my garden, we had huge ive got refugees in my garden, we had huge floods in tanzania, they came had huge floods in tanzania, they came off had huge floods in tanzania, they came off a had huge floods in tanzania, they came off a Mountain Range which separates came off a Mountain Range which separates tanzania and kenya. There were loads separates tanzania and kenya. There were loads of people displaced. There were loads of people displaced. There were refugees everywhere and the place there were refugees everywhere and the place was a mess. But we had aid starting the place was a mess. But we had aid starting to the place was a mess. But we had aid starting to come. Traditionally, a lot of starting to come. Traditionally, a lot of countries actually give aid to former lot of countries actually give aid to former colonies to keep them in favour~ to former colonies to keep them in favour~ so to former colonies to keep them in favour~ so a to former colonies to keep them in favour. So a lot of british aid money favour. So a lot of british aid money would go to former english east africa, which was kenya, and the german east africa, which was kenya, and the german aid money would go to townjennie gow, which is tanzania. It townjennie gow, which is tanzania. It was townjennie gow, which is tanzania. It was a townjennie gow, which is tanzania. It was a german aid that was turning up. It was a german aid that was turning up i it was a german aid that was turning up iwas it was a german aid that was turning up. I was working on a huge project in cahoots up. I was working on a huge project in cahoots with the Tanzania Ministry in cahoots with the Tanzania Ministry i in cahoots with the Tanzania Ministry. I had a guy who said to me. Ministry. I had a guy who said to me. Peter. Ministry. I had a guy who said to me, peter, would you like a view to him is me, peter, would you like a view to him is demarco a few tins of ham and some him is demarco a few tins of ham and some fish. I said, how much would and some fish. I said, how much would you and some fish. I said, how much would you want . You cant get hold of this would you want . You cant get hold of this english and european food. I said. Of this english and european food. I said. Ill of this english and european food. I said, ill have a couple of tens of this or said, ill have a couple of tens of this or the said, ill have a couple of tens of this or the other. He said, i thought this or the other. He said, i thought you might want a container full. Thought you might want a container full~ you thought you might want a container full. You could not mistake the aid, because full. You could not mistake the aid, because it full. You could not mistake the aid, because it was all stamped, a gift to the because it was all stamped, a gift to the people from the german democratic republic. And it was on sale everywhere, All Of A Sudden the shops were all full of it. It didnt et shops were all full of it. It didnt get to shops were all full of it. It didnt get to the shops were all full of it. It didnt get to the people who needed it and were starving. And i was offered a container were starving. And i was offered a container full. Did were starving. And i was offered a container full. Container full. Did you get the impression container full. Did you get the impression it container full. Did you get the impression it was container full. Did you get the impression it was common i container full. Did you get the impression it was common practice . It seemed normal. Having worked out there for it seemed normal. Having worked out there for so it seemed normal. Having worked out there for so long, you do follow international affairs. And then you wonder international affairs. And then you wonder how often it happens. I was only there wonder how often it happens. I was only there with that particular disaster. Only there with that particular disaster, and you can see a change when disaster, and you can see a change when things disaster, and you can see a change when things were happening in the middle when things were happening in The Middle East and british aid, proper equipment, people who were struggling for places to live, they were struggling for places to live, they were sending out tents instead of money were sending out tents instead of money. Sending money doesnt work. Governments get wealthy by it. I have governments get wealthy by it. I have an governments get wealthy by it. I have an issue. I have a couple of issues have an issue. I have a couple of issues with have an issue. I have a couple of issues with things like. Can i say a particular issues with things like. Can i say a particular charity . Issues with things like. Can i say a particular charity . A particular charity . Probably best not, a particular charity . Probably best not. Because a particular charity . Probably best not, because they a particular charity . Probably best not, because they are a particular charity . Probably best not, because they are not a particular charity . Probably best not, because they are not here i a particular charity . Probably best not, because they are not here to| not, because they are not here to defend themselves. It is a rich call, because you have made some interesting points. The waste, the stuff that has gone astray. I interesting points. The waste, the stuff that has gone astray. Stuff that has gone astray. I have worked for stuff that has gone astray. I have worked for 30 stuff that has gone astray. I have worked for 30 years stuff that has gone astray. I have worked for 30 years in stuff that has gone astray. I have i worked for 30 years in international development, and ive never been offered development, and ive never been offered a development, and ive never been offered a container of harm or anything offered a container of harm or anything else, to be honest. Hang on anything else, to be honest. Hang on a second, please. Anything else, to be honest. Hang on a second, please. Sorry, anything else, to be honest. Hang on a second, please. Sorry, everybody. | a second, please. Sorry, everybody. Sir mark locock, impassioned points, people who have experienced it and have been on the ground, i dont take any body has been on who doesnt know what theyre talking about it. Is this money well spent . I what theyre talking about it. Is this money well spent . What theyre talking about it. Is this money well spent . I have worked on these issues this money well spent . I have worked on these issues for this money well spent . I have worked on these issues for a this money well spent . I have worked on these issues for a long this money well spent . I have worked on these issues for a long time, on these issues for a long time, more than 40 years. If you look at the big picture, what you see over that whole period is that the world has moved from a position where most people in these poor countries, the majority of them live in extreme poverty, they die early, they die in infancy, they are hungry most of the time, their kids do not go to school. From that position, to a position now where it is not more than 50 of the population of these countries, but less than 10 . That has been a huge improvement on the human condition. Aid is not the cause of all of that, but it has helped, because it pays for immunisations to stop children dying in infancy from killer diseases. It pays for food for starving children and so on. It is the case that not every country has seen the progress. It is the case that countries affected by conflict and fragility, like haiti, somalia and afghanistan, evenin like haiti, somalia and afghanistan, even in those places, what aid has done is stop problems leading to mass loss of life. I worked in the mid 19 80s, where1 Million People died in a famine. People dont die infamine any died in a famine. People dont die in famine any more, there has only been one famine killing lots of people in the 20th century. 0ne been one famine killing lots of people in the 20th century. One of the reasons for that is that aid agencies do a good job of stopping people dying in those circumstances. You need to have limited expectation for what aid can do. It can save many lives, but it cant force a country to develop or its leaders to behave. Its country to develop or its leaders to behave. �. , country to develop or its leaders to behave. � ,. ,. ,. , country to develop or its leaders to behave. � ,. ,. ,. , behave. Its an important point, are we lettin behave. Its an important point, are we letting the behave. Its an important point, are we letting the regime behave. Its an important point, are we letting the regime of behave. Its an important point, are we letting the regime of a we letting the regime of a particular country, the generals, the colonels, whoever it is, we letting them off the hook . Are we freeing them of their responsibility do stuff . ~. , , do stuff . Well, in most countries which have do stuff . Well, in most countries which have developed do stuff . Well, in most countries which have developed a do stuff . Well, in most countries which have developed a lot, which have developed a lot, governments have got more accountable to their people. The problem you have is what do you do in places like afghanistan, when there is a regime you dont like . There is a nasty dilemma, the choice between doing nothing and watching large numbers of children die, the government report said because of withdrawal of aid to afghanistan, thousands of women are going to die in childbirth. That is one option. The alternative is to do the things you can do and save a lot of lives, well you hope that the country will get the act together and we better governed and so on. The track record of simply abandoning countries is a terrible one. That is not an approach which has any previous success. , ~ approach which has any previous success. ~ ,. ,. ,. ,. , approach which has any previous success. ,. ,. , success. Thank you to ian who has one success. Thank you to ian who has gone now. Success. Thank you to ian who has gone now. Ian success. Thank you to ian who has gone now, ian birrell, success. Thank you to ian who has gone now, ian birrell, who success. Thank you to ian who has gone now, ian birrell, who has success. Thank you to ian who has | gone now, ian birrell, who has got people thinking. Angela, you wanted to make another point . I people thinking. Angela, you wanted to make another point . To make another point . I have been to make another point . I have been to somaliland. To make another point . I have been to somaliland, i to make another point . I have been to somaliland, i have to make another point . I have been to somaliland, i have been to make another point . I have been to somaliland, i have been to to make another point . I have been to somaliland, i have been to the i to somaliland, i have been to the hospital, it is extraordinary. But many came in to help build the hospital, and there is a huge Somali Niasse Brit Community in the uk and money pause across to them. The medication we send is donated to us by one of the Biggest Companies in the world and it is brand new and free of charge. And we donate that anonymously. The women who get the medication, they dont know it has come from a little organisation like ours, because we want them to believe that the country values them enough to give them the medication free of charge. When i talk to a woman whose life we have saved, she doesnt know who i am. I think this issue of the white people coming to save us has been a major problem. So we work anonymously, and we want to give the women the self respect and make them feel valued enough that somebody will save their lives from their country, as opposed to those coming in. Their country, as opposed to those cominu in. �. , ~ their country, as opposed to those cominu in. �. , i. Their country, as opposed to those coming in coming in. Angela, thank you very much indeed. Coming in. Angela, thank you very much indeed. Wow, coming in. Angela, thank you very much indeed. Wow, what coming in. Angela, thank you very i much indeed. Wow, what incredible contributions this morning. We are going to talk about male incontinence, very important. That is coming up. The coverage of donald trump as indictment is next on bbc news. We continue our conversations on 5 live and bbc sounds. Live from london, this is bbc news. Trump charged again, a fresh indictment for the former president accused of overturning his election defeat. ,. ,. Accused of overturning his election defeat. ,. ,. , defeat. Today and indictment was unsealed charging defeat. Today and indictment was unsealed Charging Donald defeat. Today and indictment was unsealed charging Donald Trumpl defeat. Today and indictment was i unsealed Charging Donald trump of conspiring to defraud the united states. And . A bbc investigation finds out how easy it is to get fake reviews posted online even for medical procedures. find reviews posted online even for medical procedures. Reviews posted online even for medical procedures. And this is the live scene as medical procedures. And this is the live scene as the medical procedures. And this is the live scene as the pope medical procedures. And this is the live scene as the pope arrives medical procedures. And this is the live scene as the pope arrives in i live scene as the pope arrives in portugal celebrating the world. Hello. Donal trump has been criminally charged with plotting to overturn his defeat in the us president ial election in 2020, the most serious legal threat yet to the former president as he campaigns to return to the white house. He is charged with four counts in the 45 page indictment brought by special counseljack smith. The charges are conspiracy to defraud the united states, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of an official proceeding and conspiracy against the rights of citizens. 0ur washington correspondent reports. He is the first president to be charged with a federal crime, but if previous cases are