Very exciting to be here. But im trying to understand what has happened to this land of yours, because when you arrived here, this was an intensively farmed land, wasnt it . It was. My husband, charlie, inherited it from his grandparents when he was in his early 20s, and this was back in the 1980s. And every inch of the land was ploughed, it was producing arable crops and dairy. And we fully expected to be farmers for the rest of our lives. Mm. 17 years on, we were £1. 5 million in debt, tearing our hair out and realised that, you know, this is very marginal land. Were walking on 320 metres of clay, over a bedrock of limestone, and its an absolute pig to farm. So you were literally close to going out of business . Yeah, the farm was a failing business. And we did everything we could. We diversified, we tried different crops, we tried different cows. We sold ice cream. We did everything we could. But always it was this clay that was against us. So lets just stop for a second and look around, because what we are surrounded by now is a form of wildness. Yes. Its extraordinary, isnt it . I mean, in about 2004, 2005, this would have been a field of wheat. So what we did, piecemeal, over about six years, was leave the fields after their last harvest just left them open as stubble and allowed the seed rain to come in, allowed the hawthorn, blackthorn, dog rose, brambles to take off, allowed, you know, the saplings, the oaks to start naturally regenerating. And let that Vegetation Pulse Kind of take off. This is the kind of habitat, you know, that people look at normally and consider absolute wasteland. Its considered good for nothing. But its one of the most biodiverse habitats we have. Thorny scrub is just amazing for wildlife. I know you had cattle as part of your intensive farming. Youve kept some cattle. Not the dairy cows we had, because they probably wouldnt be able to survive out here now. Theyre such a modern breed. So what weve chosen is old english longhorns we might see some of them but theyre amazing. And they look very much like their extinct ancestor, the aurochs, with these great sweeping horns. We needed to have an old breed that could sort of remember, as it were you know, genetically remember how to browse as well as graze. They eat vegetation as well. So all these sort of browse lines that you can see, you know, the cattle will be eating this kind of thing in the winter. And its notjust cattle, is it . Youve got wild ponies here. Youve got deer. Youve got wild pigs. And there are no fences any more. So these animals are just free to roam. Yeah, we have a boundary fence, so a deerfence around the entire estate so that the deer dont go onto the roads and cause problems. But essentially they are free roaming. Theyre ostensibly living pretty much as animals would in the wild. And we want to see what species spontaneously find us. So we have nightingales, you know . Weve got the densest population of nightingales probably in britain right here. And thats one of our most critically endangered species. Were probably the only place where Turtle Dove Numbers are actually rising. And thats entirely natural . And thats entirely natural. Last year, we found a large tortoiseshell butterfly that was breeding here, that was thought to be extinct in britain for 50 years. Some of the local farmers might say, the problem with Isabella Tree and her husband, charlie, is that they are allowing weeds to run riot, which spread into ourfarmland. Theyre allowing pests and predators to thrive and they come to our land, too. Are you a problem in your neighbourhood . We cut a buffer of between 50 and 100 metres around our perimeter so that were not allowing the sort of seed rain, the weed species, so called, to go into farmland. Thats not really a problem. What were actually providing here is pollinating insects and natural pest controls. Were also restoring, replenishing the water table. Were also cleaning the water. Were preventing flooding. So were preventing destruction of arable land from flooding. Were doing all these other public goods, these Ecosystem Services that are really important to protect ourfarmland. Well, i want to talk much more about some of the strategic challenges you face and perhaps how you fit into an international perspective. Lets do that in your office, which is down the track, down there. Sure. Lets go. Yeah. Isabella tree, having walked the estate with you, having seen your passion and the scale of your ambition, it strikes me there is a basic question of priorities here. You have put the priority of healing the land and species regeneration above maximising food production. Well, its absolutely true. What we have to remember here is that this was very marginal land. It was very, very difficult to be producing food intensively in the modern system on this. But you were doing it. Wheat, barley. We were doing it, yeah. And about 70 of that went to feed animal livestock. So i think the first thing we need to talk about, if were talking about food security, is the amount of food waste. Thats never brought into these conversations. Whats never brought into this equation is the 30 to 40 of food that we waste, thats fit for Human Consumption and we simply waste it. So weve got to address that issue first before we Start Talking about the kind of areas that we need for nature. But in our minds, marginal land that can be productive for nature is as important as food because the two are completely intertwined. But how can you convince people who are paying ever higher prices in their supermarket for basic foodstuffs, even bread . How can you convince them that that is true . We cannot continue intensively farming as we are. We know that if we continue ploughing our lands, were wasting topsoil. Were losing topsoil at a massive rate. Theres 60 harvests left in the planet, according to some statistics the un statistics. So weve got to shift to a regenerative form of agriculture, and thats going to be working with nature rather than against it. But if i may say so, this isnt about regenerative agriculture. This is about giving the land to this word again rewilding. Exactly. So rewilding is working with regenerative agriculture. Its working hand in glove with food production. Were always going to need prime productive land for agriculture, absolutely forfood production. But were also going to need land for nature. We need to clean our air. We need to clean our water. We need to bring Back Biodiversity and we need to sequester carbon. We are producing enough food. We dont need more area forfood production. But we need to think much more cleverly about how we produce food and how were going to sustain those systems. Weve got to remember that the planet is on fire. Water is going to be a hugely important resource in the future. Weve got to think of how we can get Water Systems back that are actually going to sustain agriculture. So were thinking about wetlands as being a source of water for the future, cleaner water helping to purify our rivers. We know thats a terrific problem in terms of pollution. But its also going to be a way that we can store carbon. Wetlands are some of the most impressive carbon sinks we have on the planet. You talk a lot about the future of the planet, but are you and your husband in this business partly to make money . Because clearly youve found a way, given the way the government has transitioned its grants for Land Management towards environmental care and management, you are now in a position where you can make serious money here. Yeah. Your message seems to be rewilding is a way to make good money. Mm. It was a real surprise to us. Remember, we were trying to get out of farming because it was a loss making business. Its been a complete surprise to us, the income streams that become available. So we now have an eco tourism business. Its not huge in terms of infrastructure or the numbers of people that are involved, but we make £1 million a year from this small business. Isnt there a danger that, ultimately, good, productive Agricultural Land will be taken out of production because its actually so profitable now to consider rewilding . No. I think good Agricultural Land will always be profitable, so thats not at risk. This was marginal land that was losing money. So were seeing, in europe, across europe, were seeing 30 million acres of Land Hectares of land, sorry an area the size of belgium every three years falling out of Agricultural Production on marginal land because its just not profitable and theres no lifestyle in it. Theres no hope in it forfarmers. So theyre leaving the land. So what do we do with this land . Do we just abandon it . Or do we do something much more interesting and put free roaming animals in . Do we restore natural Water Systems and let something much more dynamic happen, which will benefit biodiversity and Carbon Storage . You know, these are really important, vital Ecosystem Services that humanity needs. Its notjust lets bring back some birds and butterflies. It is fundamental to the Life Support System on earth. I have one big question about one element of it, and that is your use of livestock, and therefore your continued use of meat. George monbiot, the activist environmentalist who weve had on hardtalk, he would say that, fundamentally, to quote him, livestock is a phenomenally profligate means of producing food. You still, in essence, are producing meat. Farmed meat, in a way. Is this not a flaw in your approach . George is absolutely right about meat being. Intensive Livestock Management being kind of a very profligate way of. Its unethical. Its unsustainable on every level. But what were seeing here in this Rewilding Project is animals acting as drivers of a system. They are integral to the restoration of this land. The way they browse and trample and rootle and disturb the soil creates niches for other life. The way their dung and their urine actually infiltrates the ground, thanks to dung beetles and all the other microbes that are helping the microbiotic species that are helping to bring those nutrients back into the soil is restoring the soil, which also helps the soil store carbon. So theyre part of the whole nutrient carbon cycle. You cant divorce large herbivores from the nutrient system. Do you eat meat . I do, but im very careful about the meat that i eat. I eat much less meat than i ever used to. I think weve all got to eat far less meat, but weve got to be very careful of where that meat comes from. And would you eat all the meat that is available on this particular estate . Because its notjust the Longhorn Cattle that weve seen. There are wild pigs here. There are even wild ponies here. Would you eat them all . Absolutely. Weve got to tell a story here about how integral these animals are to the ecosystem. And if, as we are having to manage them, because there is no Apex Predator here and we need to keep the numbers to certain levels that are going to maximise biodiversity, then we need to be absolutely upfront about eating them. Youre going to eat pony . One day, yes. We will. Yeah, yeah. Your critics would say that you and your Rewilding Project care least for one particular species, and that is the human being, because people and communities are not your focus. You, i believe, in recent years, have been a very active campaigner against significant new Housing Developments that were slated for neighbouring pieces of land close to yours. You dont want to see expanded Housing Development in an area of the South East Of England where new housing is desperately needed for communities, for young people who cannot afford a home to live anywhere near you. Why are you, in that sense, so selfish . Absolutely not against housing in the South East Of England. Its got to be in the right place. So where this 3,500 House Development is proposed is seven miles from the nearest train station. Its got no infrastructure. Its on a road that is already congested and highly polluted. Its absolutely in the wrong place. So we desperately need housing, but weve got to have it in the right place. Right, but when you said against this particular Housing Development, and i dont know all the detail, but you claimed it would destroy our ability to connect with nature forever. Yeah. It comes back to priorities. You know, you sound like somebody who doesnt really care about the needs of so many ordinary people who do desperately need housing. As i say, it is exactly. Housing in the right place. Weve absolutely got to target where were going to have housing, and that has to be where weve got infrastructure, where weve got transport. We cant have people getting into cars to get to work, to get to school. And we have to restore our ecosystems in the face of Climate Change and pollution and disease. We have to get populations of wildlife being able to connect together again. Well, thats very interesting. Or were going to see a complete collapse in what remains of our wildlife in the uk. So, in this heavily, densely populated part of england, youre saying that what is it . 1,400 hectares that you currently are rewilding, you want that to massively expand . You want much more land. Yes. Devoted to the ecosystem. Yes. That youre trying to produce here . Absolutely. And we are committed. Is that realistic . We are committed to that. You know, we have the montreal agreement, the cop15 agreement that 30 of Terrestrial Landmass has to be devoted to nature by 2030. Thats seven years away. So we have to really look at this really seriously. The Great American biologist, e0 wilson, said that if we are going to support biodiversity, and this is what our own species depends on, then we have to devote 50 of Terrestrial Landmass to nature. So weve got to take this really seriously. Without wishing to be personal in any way, you come at this as somebody with the privilege of owning a very substantial chunk of land, coming from a particular background, which, let us be honest, is one of comfort and privilege. Do you think there is anything indulgent about what you and your husband charlie are doing . We cant do this altruistically. We cant do itjust out of a whim because it makes us feel good. It has to work as a business. We couldnt survive without it. So, as an estate that employs over 50 people now, it has to make sense, financial sense. But its applicable to. Its notjust people who have thousands of hectares that rewilding can affect. Rewilding really is on a spectrum. So you have the wildest lands, the Yellowstone National parks at one end, where you dont need so much intervention. You have the knepp in the middle. But you can also rewild your garden, your window box, your roadside verges. All of us have a part to play in restoring nature across the landscape, and we have to connect, too. Youve just written a new book, A Sort Of Practical Guide to rewilding. Its upset some people because your message is that everybody sort of has a responsibility to engage in this notion of rewilding, of sort of rebuilding ecosystems. And some who garden, who love gardening, who think that the Human Intervention in their little green space is what makes it beautiful, have said that your notion of letting it all go wild runs contrary to everything that the spirit of gardening represents. Whats your message to them . Well, i would say that we need to really understand how ecosystems work. We really need to put nature at the forefront of our minds, even when were gardening. So, if you understand how a system works, if you look at the wider countryside and you see how dysfunctional and unstable and at risk it is from collapse, you cant consider it beautiful any more. Really . We have to understand that. Some of the most famous gardeners in the United Kingdom would disagree with you. Alan titchmarsh says, i hate. Hes listened to you. And then he says, i would hate to see 100 years of british gardening thrown out of the window because people think the only way forward is to leave our gardens to go wild. He says, people are being brainwashed that gardens really should only exist for birds, bees and other forms of life. They should belong to us. Mm. Well, you know, thats very short term thinking, isnt it . Because here we are with a Global Crisis that is going to affect our very survival. And Alan Titchmarsh is thinking about his patios and his decking. You know, we have to look at. Well, to be fair to Alan Titchmarsh, hes not about decking and patios, but hes about managing what he regards to be a beautiful environment created by man with intervention, the sorts of intervention that you are arguing against. We have to think, you know, the planet is on fire. Weve got to think of gardens for the future that are not going to require huge amounts of fertiliser, peat, compost and watering. Weve got to think of how we can have beautiful gardens absolutely, for sure but with low inputs, low water, and that are productive for wildlife and for insects and for Everything Else on which this planet depends, including carbon sequestration. Do you want us all to feel guilty . Because monty don, another famous gardener, says, i sense a degree of guilt about all of this at the moment. And ijust wonder whether you actually think we should feel guilty. I wonder if thats monty don feeling guilty himself. I mean, ithink, no, i dont want people to feel guilty, cos i dont think that serves any purpose, really, because ithink, you know, you. I think what rewilding does, though its a story of hope and it turns people on. So we have Tens Of Thousands of people now visiting knepp and our mailbag is absolutely astonishing, from the amount of people who come here and say, i was so overwhelmed by the planetary crisis until i came here, and ive seen how nature can rebound so quickly in just less than 20 years, if you just let it. I now want to be able to do my own thing. Can i contribute to this movement . And its people who want to rewild their churchyards, their gardens, their window box. And that is hugely galvanising and inspiring. Were all. We can all be part of this movement. Its not just for farmers and for large landowners. Its for everybody. You keep calling it a movement, isabella. Is it a movement that you are seeing growing internationally . Because im just wondering whether you really feel that knepp is part of something much, much bigger. It really is. And we need a revolution. We have got a crisis on our hands and we have to change. And thats going to come from a groundswell of mindset change. Were looking at europe, where theres incredible Rewilding Projects now. Weve got the yellowstone of europe in the carpathians that is just kicking off, that charlie is chair of. Weve got the coa valley in portugal, which is being rewilded. Everything from tiny pockets of land in the netherlands, like the kraansvlak being rewilded. Its really showing the way. Theres twice as many wolves now in europe as there are in North America and almost ten times as many brown bears, which are a cousin of the grizzly, than in North America. Europe is showing the way as to how we can live with Wilder Landscapes again and Apex Predators. So the whole sort of shebang, the whole hierarchy of life is now kicking off in europe. And were showing how densely populated countries can now live with that wilder landscape. A final thought. In this interview, youve said to me several times, we have to understand our planet is burning. And you describe this in a way as some sort of reaction to the urgency of the Climate Change challenge. But i would put it to you that, in a way, the existential, urgent Climate Emergency surely overwhelms what you are doing, because however hard you try to reintroduce lost species to this particular chunk of land, if warming is happening at the speed and at the scale that we believe it is, no amount of efforts like yours are going to undo the damage to ecosystems that we face. Dont you feel overwhelmed by this . I think what knepp has shown is that nature has the answers. If it can rebound as quickly as it has here in less than 20 years, if we can show that our soils are Storing Carbon at a rate faster than a newly planted woodland, then we know that the answers to Biodiversity Loss and Climate Change are right here. And if we can expand this idea of rewilding to every spare inch of land that is not under Agricultural Production or under development, then weve got the answer to Climate Change and Biodiversity Loss. Isabella tree, it has been a pleasure to visit your knepp estate. Thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank you. Hello there. The month ofjulyjust gone has been a very unsettled one right up and down the country, with some very wet weather around and temperatures below the seasonal norm. And for the rest of this upcoming week into the early part of august, well see very little change, with low pressure bringing further wet and windy weather at times, with it feeling on the cool side. Now, most ofjuly has been very wet up and down the country. A few areas have seen their wettestjuly on record, but many places have seen more than double theirjuly norm, with places like preston, north west england seeing three times as much rainfall as what we expect in a normaljuly. So with more Weather Systems poised to move in, those Rainfall Totals will continue to tot up in places. However, the 1st Of August looks pretty decent, i think, up and down the country. Were in between low pressure system. So a lot of dry weather around Southern Scotland, northern ireland, northern england, north wales could see a swathe of cloud with some patchy rain here, but the top and tail of that should tend to stay dry. Because the winds are lighter in the south, more sunshine. We could be up to around 22 degrees across the south. But it goes downhill quite quickly through tuesday night. Next area of low pressure starts to move in, to bring wet and windy weather across england, wales, northern ireland, by the end of the night, Southern Scotland as well, with Northern Scotland poking out into the dry and clear air mass. Quite cool here, but quite muggy further south. Heres the pressure chart, then, for wednesday. This looks like a Pressure Scene from mid autumn rather than early august. So its going to feel very unseasonably wet and windy across much of the country, away from the north of scotland, which will tend to stay drier with more in the way of sunshine. But winds reaching excess of a0 miles an hour across southern britain, and in excess of 50 miles an hour through the channel. So gales are likely here, seasonably windy. And of course, with the wind and the rain around, its going to impact the temperatures. Were looking at 15 19 celsius for most of us. And then as we head into thursday, that area of low pressure clears out into the continent, but we see a run of quite cool and strong northerly winds. So many places will feel much cooler, factor in that northerly wind. Its going to be one of sunshine and showers. Some of the showers could be quite heavy, maybe thundery in places. But in the sunshine, out of the wind, it wont feel too bad. Temperatures around 20 or 21 degrees in the south, mid to high teens further north. So these temperatures are below normal. As we head into friday, not much change. It looks like the wind continues to be quite fresh from the north northwest, maybe not as strong as thursday, but its going to be one of sunshine and showers. Again, most of the showers this time across the eastern side of the country, especially eastern england, where some of these could be heavy and thundery. But some good spells of sunshine further west, closer to this ridge of High Pressure. Temperatures again suppressed for the time of year, generally the mid to high teens. Now, if we take a look at the Jet Stream Pattern for next weekend and beyond, into the following week, it remains angled across the uk, steering more Weather Systems across the country. So its going to remain unsettled as we head into the weekend. In fact, another area of low pressure will move in to bring a spell of wet and windy weather. And into the following week, it remains unsettled, with more low pressure systems, before hints of this area of High Pressure starting to nose in towards the second half of the following week. So it is unsettled as we head into the weekend. Again, wet and windy, especially in the south, and into the start of the new week, with signs of it perhaps calming down a little bit from next wednesday onwards. Live from london, this is bbc news. Last orders. A major shake up to the way alcohol is taxed comes into force in the uk, which could leave many drinks costing more. Australia expands access to medical abortions, with all doctors and nurses now able to prescribe pregnancy termination pills. Black gold the energy giant bp is expected to announce bumper profits this morning, fuelling the debate about further taxes on big oil profits. And england, the us, and the netherlands attempt to seal their places in the Knockout Stage at the womens world cup. Well have the latest on all the action. Good morning. A major shake up of Alcohol Taxation has come into effect in the uk, with the price of stronger wines and spirit going up but some others falling. Alcohol duty, which has been frozen since 2020, will increase overall as alcoholic drinks are taxed based on their strength rather than type. The government says the new system is simpler. Ben king has more. When drinkers gather at londons King Charles Pub this evening, there will be a new tax regime in place. Changes announced in march come into effect today, taxing stronger drinks, more and weaker drinks less
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