In the studio today are Agnes Poirier of the french News Magazine and website marianne, michael goldfarb, former Foreign Correspondent with us public radio, now host of the frdh podcast thats the first rough draft of history Catherine Pepinster is a former editor of the catholic newspaper the tablet, and writes in british newspapers on politics, religion and ethics. A Fratricidal War is how a group of dissenting priests from the Russian Orthodox church describe their countrys invasion of ukraine. It could wreck the spiritual ambition of kirill, patriarch of moscow and all russia, to reunite the church in the two countries, just as it could wreck the political ambition of his sponsor, vladimir putin. On the other side of the continent in france, a country which used the blade of a guillotine to eviscerate the Divine Right Of Kings along with the religion that sustained it, Political Parties broad churches during the 20th century lack believers. And what faith should the british place in a Prime Minister determined by the police to have broken his own covid law . Catherine, lets start with what is happening in ukraine. How big a strain is this putting on the Orthodox Church in particular, and those 90 odd million Orthodox Christians . It is a big strain. It is particularly putting strain on members of the Orthodox Church in ukraine itself, already there is an independent ukrainian Orthodox Church, and now we are seeing more and more priests who have felt so torn between their country and the Russian Orthodox church led by patriarch kirill, they feel that what he has been doing, endorsing the war, effectively blessing it, making it a holy war, is completely unacceptable and they are also talking about splitting. I read something today from a theologian in ukraine who suggested that as many as half of the 12,000 parishes of the Russian Orthodox church in ukraine could break away, so this is really significant. There are also some priests in russia itself who have started to be more and more anxious about what is happening, but for them you can imagine its extremely tough to speak out, and we are also seeing breakaways as well elsewhere. The Russian Orthodox church in amsterdam, for example, has decided it will break away from moscow. How important has Russian Orthodoxy been to the narrative that President Putin is trying to construct . Its a very interesting question. Despite the 50 years when stalin effectively made russia an atheist state, it doesnt go away. The Russian Orthodox church has always been a political player within russian society. And unlike in france or in the us or even in the uk, the separation never really happened, and its really interesting. Vladimir putin was baptised as a boy and his dad was a member of the communist party, so that really is something, and the priest who officiated his baptism was kirills father, so they have a very close connection, and they share a worldview. The russians as i understand it, and i have actually gone to services in a cemetery where there is a wonderful monastery, and i want to tell you, this site in iraq, i have never encountered faith of that intensity, iran, rather, but that said those kinds of worshippers are thin on the ground, however, Russian Orthodoxy is like an Essential Strand of russian culture and political life and essentially always has been, and i think that this is why this combination of kirill and putin, with a very similar worldview, has so much power at the moment and can motivate a country into this war. Its interesting that you mention how things used to be with stalin because of course he tried to really destroy orthodoxy, but then he changed his mind and started to realise the usefulness of orthodoxy, and it is as if putin has spotted that earlier than stalin did. But in russia, the church i and the military have always been hand in hand. I looked at an interview. Of putin a few years back when he said that the Nuclear Weapons armament and orthodoxy were the two pillars of National Russian identity, and of course he was secretly baptised, and also he built thousands of churches in the last. Ten years or so, are not only in russia but abroad. I mean, orthodoxy, i the russian kind, is a tool of foreign policy. You only have to goi to paris on the river bank and there is this beautiful Orthodox Church. So its part of putins soft power . Completely, but also. I think it is three quarters. Of russians who identify as orthodox. It is part of not only the national narrative, but it is a very conservative tool within russian society. When i visited moscow a few years ago i was struck by the return of the icons to the church, that always felt like a political statement as well, that kind of almost autocratic leadership, something of value politically. And you can now visit the shrines to the roman ofs in saint petersburg, they have been consecrated as saints by the Orthodox Church. It was really interesting, in that service at the monastery, the priest went to the back room, you could hear them singing and doing whatever they do, and the ordinary people are just making a circuit of the icons and crossing themselves, and the actual heavy lifting is being done in secret, is if behind the kremlin walls, except its on the back room of this church. Its interesting, the power being used for propaganda purposes, but i double and triple checked, its online, so you can be sure . A website two years ago, they noted that on this cruiser which just sank on the black sea, they had a golden cross and embedded in that golden cross was a sliver of the true cross. This was on the website, so i will say take it with a grain of salt, but nevertheless the idea that in the 21st century you would put this to your people, that a piece of the true cross is on our flagship in the black sea is to me astonishing. The patriarch is a nice two piece of work. He let his priests bless the bombs in syria andj crimea. Nasty. So obviously it was not Strong Enough for the i flagship, their prayers. Catherine, its interesting that kirills title is the patriarch of moscow and all of russia. He happens to be the cartographer both by training and profession before he became a priest. Is there a kind of almost territorial claim built into that title . I think there is. I think there is a sense in which he and others in the Russian Orthodox church c ukraine, belarus, russia as part of one holy place and that they belong to one another. They talk sometimes about ukraine being a little russia, as if it is the little brother. And there is a way almost, the opponents of the war also talk about fraternity, they talk about the Fratricidal War, there is a closeness between the two countries, there is proximity, but it is how you express that. What is interesting is that my two reporting trips in ukraine were mostly focused in lviv and odesa but this is the stronghold of the ukrainian catholic church, not aligned at all with orthodoxy but with the roman church. Before it was never part of russia, it was part of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth and the austro hungarian empire, it is not so simple inside ukraine, it is not a uni sectarian place where nationalism intervenes and the Russian Orthodox is a bigger brother, its a much more complicated mix of christian churches, really, sects. One last thought for all of you, we will leave the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, although if anyone is interested in that, bbc sounds has a Great Programme on exactly that subject and its a really interesting history for those who wonder about democratic powers and consent of the people going back into the middle ages, but in terms of the Roman Catholic church, pope francis spoke out, easter weekend for the non Orthodox Easter weekend, the Orthodox Easter is next weekend, but he spoke out on good friday and made a pointed statement, catherine, about the right of people under threat to defend themselves. It cant be a coincidence that he should choose to deliver that message this weekend in the middle of the war in ukraine. Absolutely not and im sure we will hear more from him this weekend during his annual statement he makes to the city of the world from the balcony of saint peters. He will speak about ukraine, im sure, but what you have to remember is he will make statements to the world, he is trying to be i guess seen as a peacemaker, but behind the scenes there is also vatican diplomacy going on, and he has the Secretary Of State and another archbishop will be working, and i know that they have, talking to Russian Politicians and ministers and also talking to kirill and his people too, so its a two pronged thing, and there are various suggestions about the pope going to see kirill at some point, they have talked about him going to moscow and about him meeting injerusalem, about him going to poland, so there are discussions going on about an encounter. The churchs Diplomatic Network is very alive at the moment. Absolutely, this was an unprecedented thing, pope francis went to the Russian Embassy early on in the war to express his displeasure at what was going on. Lets talk about the other big news this week, which was the french president ial election, round one, and Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron the obvious winners, the losers shall include the two parties that used to provide the president of the republic certainly since the change of the constitution back in the early 60s, what they call the republicans. Their performance, not to put too fine a point on it, was pathetic, less than 6 between them of those who voted, they were brought churches with huge numbers of faithful, what happened . They have collapsed l and disappeared and i dont think they will come back. Why have they collapsed . Its a long story that started with the eruption of the political scene in france of the National Front, and the pen was allowed in a way to have a voice | because of the change in Votingj System by The Socialist president. I remember it very well, i was a teenager when the National Front got 35 mps in the national assembly. And instead of trying to i find out what it meant and perhaps grapple with the issue, because it| was also the eruption of the Second Generation of North African immigrants who were french, who are not passing visitors, who wanted to talk about racism | and multiculturalism, and jacques chirac, the right wingl president , or Prime Minister. Not a marriage Made In Heaven he just wanted to. Sweep the far right problem under the carpet. So they havent really had a voice, very few| mps want to, but the problem has not i left, and it is the third time that. We are faced with this very stark choice of electing a democrat, l whether its on the right or left does not matter, and. And a demagogue . Exactly. And they all had the same surname, this is the fifth in 20 years and three of them have had somebody call le pen. And if she is elected, i she has already said to a belgian newspaper that sean marie will be at the el palace. And the whole clan of le pen will be in power if macron wins the second round next month, he cannot run again five years later. What happens then . Because unless he will magic up some kind of success. This five year timeline, three years ago it was covid and six months ago. I think five years, that is the long run. Look, i dont know. I think that parties do revive. And i dont follow socialist politics in france the way i did when i was going over at the very end of the president s rule. It happens, but they also provide a framework, starting something from scratch, which is happy now, Emmanuel Macron came up with nothing and just invented a party, and thats unusual, and are not sure that is sustainable without a charismatic leader. Its not sustainable but the new generation of voters who are putting Macron Opposite Le Pen are saying, we dont want to vote. And they are playing with fire, certainly, but they are. Not as interested in party politics,. They are interested in movements and growth. And there is a long term tendency which started 30 years ago and Emmanuel Macron is only in the face of that, the convergence of the bourgeoisie, from the right and left, who are pro european and optimistic, and they want to adaptl the model, social, to globalisation. But they have the extreme left and the extreme right. And they have voters circling them. So we have an effect something that is not so democratic, a one party government, iwith Emmanuel Macron on top, so it| is completely a recomposition of the i french political landscape, but i. Dont think the left or right, the way we have known them, are going to be back. Can i pick up one last thought on france, this Movement Idea . Putin has stylised the fight against ukraine, its not about territory but values and beliefs and the decadence of the west, interchangeable with the gay rights demonstrators. Its interesting. They are the decadent ones, you make a choice. We are seeing similar language from le pen, she has talked about the importance of french tradition and civilisation, it feels like there is similar language there, this sense of people wanting to embrace some kind of past notion, some value that they feel is being lost. There seems to be a lot of mothering and scapegoating going on, which is problematic, it is such a negative politics we are seeing. And there has been a bit of that in the attitudes to the movement, poorer, disaffected, particularly young muslim men and women who are french by birth but had been treated as the other in politics. Its very interesting how the different. Religions have been voting, and we had the figures. Its interesting that the protestants, and there are not that many in france, i think 2. 5 million, they voted massively for macron, much higher than the average. The catholics. Especially the practising catholics, have voted i more for le pen than the national laverage and less for the far left. | and the muslims, the french muslims, i have voted on the first round 69 l i for the far left candidate, so this| is how religion plays out in french i society but, on the other hand, i unlike russia, france is one of the top atheist countries i in the world, you know and if you look at people who say they are not religious or simply atheist, well, they are a bit on the left and right, and a bit macron. Let me ask you, michael, in the last three or four minutes we have about borisjohnson. With the british have lost their faith in their Prime Minister as a result of him being fined for breaching his own law on covid . Its impossible to tell. And luckily we have the may local elections and we just have to be patient and wait. From what i can tell, what we talked about in france, most people who will sit around this table for any reason thing, you cant do that, you cannot break the rules, the laws, you just made, and so brazen fashion, even for a 50 quid fine, but i have a feeling there are a lot of people in the country who think, 50 quid . I got caught speeding the other day and that was 95 quid and three points on my licence people will make their own decision about how that is. And as for the rest of it, my guess is its all priced in now, the way the country feels about boris, but i do think there is no election until 2024, so we will have to wait that long to find out. Catherine, the interesting thing about that fixed penalty fine, when you look at the debates, part of the reason for that was them worried they would be so overwhelmed, the police and the courts especially in the middle of a pandemic with prosecuting people who broke the rules, this was the most efficient way of doing it, so it wasnt necessarily a judgment on how serious it was but more an administrative decision. Im not sure that many people did break the rules in the end. People were stunned at quite how many parties there were in number 10. A remarkable number. You could say that boris has been lucky in that Something Else came along, i ukraine, to take the attention of him, but i wonder if his luck will run out because we now have a cost of living crisis in this country and we may well start to see the impact of that when we have the elections in may, that is when people might vote according to their displeasure about that, and as is so often the case in politics, the economy plays so strongly. And we used to be rather snooty in this country about french politics on this question about rule breaking and apparently indifference to some of the stricter rules on how you raise funds for election campaigns, who you give jobs to and all the rest of it, is the boot now on the other foot . I think you have to i distinguish the british and their government, and there are a lot of. People in the world who still highly regarded the british, their government is another story, i have stopped making predictions, it should have been gone, so many scandals. You only have to readl the Ministerial Code to know that is not propriety and integrity, and everything a british Prime Minister is expected to be doing, so i have not lost faith in| the british, ive lost complete faith in the british Prime Minister. But as long as the tories are here. As you were saying, michael, another two years. They will back him unless they think they have a better candidate. And they dont at the moment. Surely you must have a better candidate . L if the war gets heavy and people get drawn in they might have to find a much more serious person. I dont want tojinx him. The chair of the Foreign Affairs committee, former soldier . We are not there. I have a feeling we will talk about this for weeks to come, not least in a fortnight after those local election results. Thats it for Dateline London for this week. I hope you enjoy your easter, however you are celebrating. If you are celebrating watching this programme then a happy easter to you. Goodbye. Hello again. Hello there, it is going to stay warm tomorrow. With some sunshine as well. Later on Sunday The Weather Front will come in and bring some rain to the western areas, it is moving very slowly and High Pressure is turning to dominate. The area near that High Pressure will bring in more sunshine and warmth. Hopefully a bit more sunshine for western and northern part of the uk. The sunnier skies are going to be across the East Midlands and eastern parts of england. Temperatures, 15, 16. Maybe 19 and 20 widely. It will be 22 at wembley. It will be a bit sneezy. High pollen levels. It will be a fine and to the day. It will turn cool once The Sun Goes Down and overnight the cloud will thicken and bring some rain to Northern Ireland and Western Isles of scotland. Otherwise clear skies and in those skies, it will be chilly first thing in the morning across the East Midlands, east anglia and the southeast. It could be four or 5 degrees. Plenty of sunshine for much of the country on sunday. There will be cloud and rain at times in Northern Ireland, not getting much further into scotland. Late in the day, that cloud will increase in scotland. Ahead of that, the temperatures will be about 19, 20 degrees across england. A little bit cooler than today for scotland and Northern Ireland in particular. The Weather Fronts will continue to push towards the east overnight. Not a great deal of rain on them, once they move through, the air will be coming in from the atlantic and it will feel cooler on easter monday. The Weather Front itself, there it is. It is more a band of cloud, not much rain. It will move through and sunshine will follow behind and heavy showers will arrive in Northern Ireland in Western Scotland driven by blustery winds. Not bad if you have sunshine, although it will be cooler for all of us on monday. Top temperature of around 16 degrees. Heading further into the week and tuesday, we could see some showers, possibly heavy. The rest of the week looks generally drive. It will not be quite as warm with an easterly wind set to develop. This is bbc news . Welcome if youre watching here in the uk or around the globe. Our top stories. Russia warns the us and its allies against supplying further weapons to ukraine saying its adding fuel to the conflict. Missile attacks resume near kyiv. Moscow says it targetted a factory making anti ship weapons and threatens more to come. Russia has banned boris johnson, the uk foreign secretary liz truss, and defence secretary, ben wallace from entering the country. Disaster teams in south africa are on high alert forfurtherfloods as more rain is expected over the weekend. Our correspondent is there. Actually it is turning out to become a humanitarian disaster actually. We have got Relief Agencies and government agencies