pro—beijing new people's party. has hong kong's governing principle of one country, two systems already morphed into one country, one system? dominic lee in hong kong, welcome to hardtalk. hi, thanks for having me. it's a pleasure to have you. now, mr lee, you were recently elected to hong kong's legislative council. what word would you choose to describe hong kong's political system? it's a revamped system, and i think it's an enhancement to the previous system, which was characterised by filibustering, excessive ones, and violence was incited in the legislative council chamber. and right now, with the new legco, we are three weeks into swearing in and the environment is a lot better now. the chief executive came to the legislative council for an increased session two weeks ago, and there are a lot of enquiries from different legco members asking them about different social issues. so the legco right now is more focused on solving socioeconomic issues in hong kong, as opposed to just quarrelling and political debates like previously in legco. right, i was wondering to myself whether you would use the word democracy, and i notice you didn't. so any pretence that hong kong was moving to a more democratic, pluralistic system, that's been abandoned, has it? i don't agree with what you said at all, because i think when we look at democracy, there are a lot of different systems. the democracy in a lot of people, it does notjust represent election politics, if that's what you're referring to. in china, we practise what we call whole process democracy, at which democracy is in every stage of the decision making process — an election is one part of it, one big part of it. but if we're too consumed about election, we put too much focus and too much time into elections like... as displayed in american politics, where when people get elected, they think about re—election. so, you know, trump is already almost declaring candidacy for the next election. so we have to wonder, you know, what time and focus are we putting into actually solving socioeconomic issues that our society is facing? right, but interestingly, you said "in china" — of course, the whole point of hong kong and the way it was set up after the handover back to chinese sovereignty was that you had your one country, two systems principle, and there was the freedom, at least notional freedom, for hong kong to develop a system different from mainland china's. but it sounds to me as though you have no interest in that. you'vejust said "in china" — that's the way you feel about where you sit, is it? well, hong kong is a part of china. there's no denying that and you talked about one country, two systems. i think there are a lot of things here in hong kong that are unique to other cities in china, that's for sure. for example, we used a common law system. we have an independent judiciary system and we do not have to join the military. we recognise international treaties like iccpr and we practise a capitalist system. so we're definitely a one country, two system location. but i don't agree with you because hong kong is definitely a part of china. so i mean, that's why i'm referring to it as china. absolutely, i made the point about the sovereignty of china. but what's interesting to me is that the turnout, for example, in these recent legislative council elections was 30%. it was half of the previous turnout before the rules were changed at beijing's insistence. indeed, it was much less than half the turnout in the 2019 municipal elections. it seems people in hong kong simply do not believe in the system that beijing has imposed upon you, what with all of the oaths that have to be taken by candidates to prove their patriotism, the fact that most seats in the legislature are now not directly elected by the voters of the territory. the people don't believe in the system. that's not true. i believe that the success of a particular electoral system is not measured by the turnout rate. i mean, it's measured by whether or not the elected officials have done a good job in tackling some of the most pressing socioeconomic issues. you don't think turnout, the basic act of voting, is important? it's definitely one of the elements, but this element is largely hinged on a lot of factors. for example, there are different systems, like in singapore where they practise compulsory voting, right? the voting rate is 95%, but we definitely wouldn't say that the high turnout rate in singapore definitely necessarily means that that electoral system is better than other system, which has a low turnout rate. and in hong kong, if you ask me if 30% turnout rate, if you compare it with like, let's say, a 2014 us midterm election, they have a 34% turnout rate. so our 30% is not really much that much lower than that, considering the fact that our election, this past election, is the district level election, whereas the midterm election, the senate race in the us, is a nationwide one which usually has a higher turnout. so 30%, by any stretch of the imagination, is not something that's, like, abnormally low. could it be that the turnout, the very low turnout, was partly because the people of hong kong saw there was no variety of voices? there was no pluralism at all in the offer before them in the recent elections. look at the facts, you know, a whole host of lawmakers who were not, in any sense, radicalised firebrands, but were pro—democracy politicians. they�* re now locked up. i could quote you claudia mo, tiffany yen, leung kwok—hung — all of these people are now injail. many other pro—democracy activists have been forced out of hong kong. others have simply been silenced. there's a fundamental lack of pluralism in your system today, isn't there? that's not true. well, you know, what's interesting about this election is that actually nobody was disqualified from running in this election, and there were candidates who represented the pan democrats side and in the 2019 district council election that was running in this previous election. and then there were people... there was a candidate, who has even chanted hong kong independence slogan before and even she was qualified to run in this election. so i don't agree with your statement saying that there was no, like, diversity of candidate. in fact, of you look at.... you're not aware of the fact that the politicians i've just named are all injail? you're not aware that joshua wong is injail? some are in jail because they broke the law. you're not aware that nathan law was forced out of the country? but we have to recognise the fact that there are a lot of other people that are representing the pan—democratic camp that are running in this election. in fact, our chief executive had openly invited candidates from the democratic party to participate in this election, but some of them have declined. and when members in their party who want to run in this election on their own personal capacity, the party actually forbids them for doing so. and two of the members of the democratic party were kicked out recently of the party for supporting a pan—democratic candidate in this election. and how is that for being in, like, you know... don't you find it hypocritical for them to call themselves democratic party, and to forbid the members from running in this election? i think what i perhaps struggle with is the fact that so many individuals have been locked up as a result of the national security law imposed from beijing. and you tell me that hong kong is still a political entity where people can express their views, whether they be in opposition dissenting to the ruling party or not — it's plainly not true. no, that's — you're not right. well, look, nationalsecurity law is not something that's exceptional in hong kong. in the us, they have 20 pieces of legislation that are national security—related. so for these people, they were locked up because they have broken the law. some of them didn't break the national security law. but, with respect, i think you're missing my point that the national security law was imposed from beijing, you are supposed to have political autonomy — comes back to our conversation about one country, two systems. but your national security law was imposed from beijing. well, we call it national security law for a reason because it has to do with national security. in fact, the national security law is a piece of national legislation which is supposed to be legislated by the npcsc, and that is the only reason why that is being done that way. and this is not a hong kong piece of law, but it has to protect our national... we have to protect our national security. hong kong, as a part of china, has the responsibility to do it just like in any other country. they also have the national security law. and i was asking you the question, why is it ok for the us to have their national security law? but it's not ok for hong kong and china to have our own national security law? why is that? i find it very hypocritical, especially when if you consider the national security, the highest penalty was actually death penalty in the us, when the highest penalty in hong kong is only life imprisonment. so how is that any different? as amnesty international has said, looking at the national security law, "almost anything could be deemed a threat to national security under its provisions. it could apply to anyone on the planet, at least in theory". now, in response to that, one of your colleagues, pro—beijing legislator alice mak, said, "if hong kong is a police state, why not? i don't think there's any problem with a police state." maybe it's just that she's a bit more honest than you. what she said has nothing to do with the national security law because we have enforcement agency, which i think has been doing a good job since 2019. if we take a look at how hong kong was in 2019, when the rioters who came out in the street, vandalising, they were burning people, they were throwing stones at people, killing people, then we need a strong enforcement agency to keep our society stable. if you take a look at a situation in the us, well, you will see the police being a lot more stringent, especially in the management of the capitol hill riots. there were protesters that were unarmed that was shot by police inside capitol hill and in hong kong throughout 2019, 2020 and last year, there were no such things that happened. nobody was killed as a result of these protests and not as a result of these police. so i think hong kong definitely has preserved our freedom and liberty. mr lee, do you feel comfortable living in a society where a respected newspaper editor, jimmy lai, can be imprisoned under the national security legislation and can potentially face the prospect, if convicted, of spending the rest of his life in prison? are you comfortable with that? you know what's interesting about what you said about mrjimmy lai... what was the word that you used to describejimmy lai at the very beginning? respected newspaper proprietor is what he is. respected? yeah. ok, so recently last year, an nbc article revealed that jimmy lai has, according to him, "unknowingly" funded a false persona report discrediting joe biden. and he accused hunter biden of chinese business ties, and you know what apple daily did? one of the charge that the enforcement agency now lay on apple daily has nothing to do with national security. it has to do with fraud, and apple daily actually lied to the government and misused the land, which is supposed to be used for media purposes and used it for company secretarial purpose. and so i find it very difficult to believe that you would use the word "well—respected" to describe mrjimmy lai. i wonder what the government in hong kong and indeed the government in beijing is so frightened of, mr lee. maybe you can tell me. when people are arrested — ma chun—man was one individual arrested for simply waving banners and wearing slogans on t—shirts which call for liberation of hong kong — when ngos that defend human rights are forced to close, when university campuses are raided, when teachers are banned from teaching because they're deemed to have sympathy with the pro—democracy movement, what are the authorities so scared of? well, first of all, i disagree with the fact that you say that authorities are scared. the authority is basically just carrying out a law. this national security law is not something that's exceptional to hong kong. every country in the world has their own national security law. so if people are trying to jeopardise our national security, then, according to law, the enforcement agency has to take actions. these people are arrested and put to jail, not because of the political stance, but because they have broken the law. some of them has notjust broken the national security law, some of them has engaged in violent protests, has engaged in vandalism, has engaged in incitement. all of these are common law offences that britain has left in hong kong when they were... when hong kong was still a colony of britain, so... it's striking to me that you actually went to university in the united states. i believe you were at rice university. idid. so you've sampled what americans would describe as the academic freedom on a campus in the us. you now live in hong kong, where as we see... where we have equal freedom... ..police can raid campuses... i went to college in the united states. ..can detain teachers and where the vice president of the professional teachers union says, "they are turning education into a tool for controlling thought in hong kong." you know, stephen, i have watched a few of your interviews and you like to use citations from these people, right? are we playing a citing game now? because i can cite... just because those citations are basically their opinions. i can cite as many citations. sorry, those quotations... those quotations are what, sorry? 0k, former secretary of justice hong kong elsie leung has said the electoral reform is in line with one country, two systems and will bring hong kong towards a brighter future. priscilla leung, a legco member, also professor at city university of hong kong school of law, well—respected scholar, has said that the enhanced electoral system will result in a higher quality government. but that's beautiful. we could quote all day long. this is exactly — isn't this exactly... ? we could quote all day long. isn't this exactly what an intelligent debate is like? but the problem that i'm pointing out to you in hong kong is that the people with the views i'm expressing end up injail. they are in jail because they broke the law. and to be completely honest, as a hong kong person, well, not only have i lived in hong kong, i've lived in america before for college, i've been educated in hong kong as well. i see no difference in the level of freedom and personal liberty that i'm enjoying. first of all, i never intend to break any law, so i'm not worried about breaking any law, national security law and any other laws. if you are a law—abiding citizen, if you are doing business, if you're doing, you know, if you're doing your work, people have freedom to do all sorts of things here in hong kong. i urge all the people who are watching this programme to just come to hong kong, come to china and see it for yourself. you know, there are expatriates who are living in hong kong, and they're so happy because of all the freedom they enjoy in hong kong. if they use the phrase "tiananmen square massacre", they're going to get arrested, aren't they? would you be prepared to use that phrase? well, first of all, are you sure... there are a lot of things that people are basically putting out when making accusations, when there are no real evidence to support them. people are making accusations about, "oh, yeah, there are..." sorry, ijust asked you a simple question about... "..forced labour or genocide in xinjiang," before even being in there. when i... it was 1984. .. when it was 1989, i was five years old, 0k? so basically, without any concrete evidence, 0k, people are making all these accusations. remember iraq, like, you know, people... american government was saying that there was, like, a weapon of mass destruction and then they invaded iraq. they invaded iraq. but then after the invasion, they found nothing. so the western country... these five countries are making all these accusations without any evidence or real proof behind it. you make a big play in your politics saying you want to build the chinese identity of hong kongers. i just wonder how you feel that process is going. i looked at one survey. admittedly, it's not that fresh, cos it dates back to 2019. but in that survey, 53% of hong kongers interviewed said that they identified as hong kongers, only 11% identified as chinese, and when asked if they were proud of being national citizens of china, 71% said no, and only 27% said yes. do you feel that you're winning this effort to introduce a chinese identity? well, first of all, that number that you cited it was in 2019. i believe the recent number is a lot... a lot more people from recent surveys has identified themselves as chinese. and you're right, i mean, the very reason why i started to go on this quest to try to educate more people to embrace the chinese identity is because of the fact that before there were a lot of misinformation on the media that was being portrayed by western politicians, that people in hong kong sometimes are buying them. and that's why i started this youtube channel in 2019 and we have amassed over 300,000 subscribers to date, and we are putting out these information to tell them what the reality is and tell them not to just believe everything that the western media and politicians are telling them. no, i understand the message. we have been making lot of progress. i understand the message, mr lee. ijust wonder if it's getting through. i mean, you must see as well as i do, the figures on emigration out of hong kong, 90,000 people left in the last 12 months. it's one of the biggest emigration numbers in recent years. 88,000 hong kongers applied for british national overseas visas because now the british government is going to let them in. it does suggest people are voting with their feet. a lot of particularly very well—educated and younger professional hong kongers, it seems, want to get out. if people would like to leave hong kong, i mean, they're free to leave. i mean, good forthem. but it's important to note that according to the survey, you have cited only 90,000 — or 80,000 people left hong kong for other countries. and that's not a lot considering that we have seven million people who lived in hong kong. well, that's also a lot less than the 500,000 people that the british government speculated when they initiated the bno visa programme, so... and, you know, according to a lot of immigration agency, a lot of these people who have moved to the uk or other countries are now regretting the decision, because when they get there, they found it actually a lot harder to get a job than they initially thought. and they're not used to the culture shock, and they're also facing racial discrimination. so a lot of them are coming back. if they want to go, thenjust go. you're from a family of businesspeople. i believe your family has manufacturing interests in hong kong. you care about hong kong being a flourishing business... in hong kong and china. yeah, and therefore, does it not worry you that all of the surveys of international businesspeople suggest they're extremely worried about hong kong's future for two reasons? 0ne, because of the increasing control coming from beijing and a sense that the political situation is changing very fast and therefore the investment situation may change, but also covid restrictions as well, which have been incredibly tight in hong kong. do you worry hong kong's future as an international hub for business, for foreign business, may be coming to an end? well, once i agree with you — that people vote with theirfeet, you know, politicians, media can say what they want. but the reality is that the gdp of hong kong has grown for... it's projected to grow by 6.4% in 2021, which means that even after the implementation of national security law and the revamp of our electoral system and with all the covid pandemic situation, companies still find hong kong an attractive place to do business in, and i think they are right because we are riding on a growing chinese market. we have an independentjudicial system and we have a high standard of rule of law. and that's why business are staying in hong kong, and the number tells it. just a final thought, and it comes back to your relationship, yourfeelings about china, you're a practising catholic. we have seen in recent years the chinese authority crack down on catholics inside china. we've certainly seen a crackdown on the muslim minority, the uyghur community in xinjiang. i just wonder whether you are prepared to defend china at all costs, or whether you have some doubts about what is happening in beijing today. i think a lot of people can say a lot of things in china — but one thing you cannot deny is the growth and the progress that the chinese government has been making through all these decades. and the result speaks for itself. you know, in a recent survey that's conducted by harvard university, they found out that chinese citizens actually have a 93% satisfaction rate of the government, as opposed to 37% of americans. now this this survey is not conducted by the state, it's not conducted by state media. this is conducted by harvard university, so they have no incentive to just kind of create other numbers, right? so it comes to tell us that what. .. china is making all these progress, you can criticise the chinese government all you want, but people are happy and there's no denying that. dominic lee, i wish we had more time, but we've run out. i thank you very much indeed forjoining me from hong kong. thank you. hello. tuesday promises more of the weather we've been so used to lately — largely dry, but often cloudy. the satellite picture shows this pale grey colour here — that's the sheet of low cloud that's been with many of us for the last few days. this bright white cloud out towards the west is the first sign of the frontal systems that will eventually get things moving and bring about something of a change. but for tuesday morning, most places starting off grey and cloudy, some mist and fog patches, too. the fog should tend to lift as the day wears on, as the breeze picks up a little. best chance of sunshine perhaps for north east wales, the west midlands, north east england, but more especially for northern ireland, for southern and eastern scotland, where the breeze really will be picking up, turning that cloud over and breaking it up. some spots of rain into northwest scotland. temperatures ranging from just 3—4 celsius in parts of eastern england, to maybe 8—9 in western scotland and northern ireland. now as we head through tuesday night, we'll see one band of cloud and a few spots of rain pushing south towards — a very weak weather front. 0ur big area of cloud will start to retreat southwards, so we will see a few more clear breaks developing that could allow temperatures to drop relatively close to freezing — at the same time, there'll be more of a breeze. so i think quite a few places will stay frost—free, there'll be a few pockets of frost here and there. but wednesday morning starts under the influence of this area of high pressure — the high really has been with us for quite a few days now. but a weather system approaching from the northwest will start to get things moving and change things — and certainly, the wind will be strengthening through the day across northern ireland and scotland, gales in exposed northwestern areas later with outbreaks of rain pushing in. much of england and wales dry, a little more in the way of sunshine and slightly higher temperatures, as well, 8—10 celsius. now as we go through wednesday night and on into thursday, we push this frontal system southwards, we'll see some really strong winds for a time around the far north of scotland. that weather front, as it gets into the south, well, not much rain left on it, but maybe a legacy of cloud and drizzle for a time across southwest england and the channel islands. however, for most of us on thursday, we will see quite a lot more in the way of sunshine, a few showers into the north of scotland. temperatures not doing too badly, actually, 7—12 celsius. friday will bring the return of the cloud, pushing in from the west — but it will be quite mild, quite breezy and dry for most. welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm mariko 0i. the headlines: as more russian forces make their way towards the ukraine border, the us puts thousands of troops on standby for potential deployment to eastern europe. new party problems for borisjohnson, downing street admits holding birthday events for the pm during lockdown, but denies breaking any rules. announcing a coup on state tv. burkina faso�*s military detains the president, closes the borders and suspends the constitution. and taking the temperature in beijing, what's it like to host the winter olympics amid some of the world's toughest covid restrictions?