now on bbc news, it's time for political thinking with nick robinson. hello and welcome to political thinking. on the day that borisjohnson issued an apology, one tweet got liked and shared around 35,000 times, by a man who has almost 5 million followers. that is what they mean by being a social media influencer. my guest on political thinking is gary neville. you may know him for kicking a ball, kicking it for united, for england, a man who won so many trophies, so many medals. you may know him from sky sports from his often searing analysis of how others kick a ball. but increasingly you may also know him for his political opinions and for the fact that he launches crunching tackles on social media on borisjohnson and on other conservative ministers. he is a self—proclaimed champagne socialist and yet he's a pretty successful capitalist as well, he's a man who employs 600 people in businesses here in greater manchester. he runs hotels, restaurants, he co—owns his salford fc and has set up a new university for kids like him who never really dreamt of going to university. all this is making some people wonder how long he can sit in the political stands instead of running out onto the pitch. gary neville, welcome to political thinking. good to be here. how and why on earth did you end up straying into politics? initially at the beginning of the pandemic i think that the country was glued to the television set every single day, unique situation, the pandemic, the downing street press conferences every night, wondering what was happening next, whether it be for health announcements, business announcements, and matt hancock stood up one day and decided that in the midst of a pandemic it was the right thing to suggest that football players needed to do a lot more. and i accept that football players don't always cover themselves in glory, we don't always cover ourselves in glory, but actually most of the football players that i know are pretty good lads, they come from decent backgrounds, working—class backgrounds, boys done well, followed their dream, and i just thought it was a cheap shot. and i looked at hancock and i thought, "you're a chancer." there is no doubt about that. you can spot them a mile off, can't you? when you come from bury, bolton, lancashire. i thought, "not having it." so i just thought every time i get an opportunity now, i'll pop back. i'm not a great fan of boris, i think he is damaging to the country. not a great fan. i think you called him a spaghetti bolognese of a politician once. he's all over the place. why? i was trying to work it out. to be honest, it was something that came from a football analysis that when a defence is all over the place, it's like a spaghetti bolognese, everything just sort of inter tangles with everything and looks a mess. and i just look at where we are at this moment in time, the reason i got drawn into it is because it is wrong, it is just wrong. we can call it all the names under the sun, i think everybody now, 18 months in, has had enough. i think borisjohnson is finished, i think we are probably going to see the long road to his tenure ending in the next few months. and he lies. it's an interesting thing, you've gone beyond, as it were, standing up for the kid you once were, people like marcus rashford, you are no longerjust the shop steward, which people always talk to you about, being at old trafford. you have widened it out. this is a bigger thought. i was called the shop steward, i was the foreman in the youth team, i was the pfa union rep. i do believe that i fight for people's rights. i am privileged and i'm wealthy. sometimes people say it is easy from where you are, but i don't think silence is good enough either and i think that i have got a platform and i do feel passionate about it. i have businesses, i look after people, i believe in one team and looking after teams and i've been part of a great team at manchester united but i also believe that the businesses we have now are great teams. i think the ceo of our country, the prime minister, needs to build one team, and he is divisive. he divides, he loves division, so does gove, so does rees—mogg, so does patel. they thrive on fear, control, division. it's everything that we are not. let's talk about you a bit. you've just said you're privileged. you obviously knew before you said you were a champagne socialist that that would be put down, they'd say you are a rich guy, you don't need to work any more, your kids go to a private school, for example. yeah. does it bother you 7 are you being defensive? no, i don't think it's being defensive. i think what you're best off saying is my kids go to a private school, i have private health care, i am wealthy, i have a fantastic car, i have a few houses, but i grew up in bury in a terraced house, two up, two down, with my mum and dad. my dad was staunch labour through his parents. my nan had a disability, she was unable to work. she thought conservative governments were cruel. however my mum's side of the family were conservative because they had a business in the late �*70s that was quite successful, that basically fell on labour economic policy, and they never trusted labour to look after the economy. so i grew up in this sort of family that was sort of one was conservative, one was labour, and i sat there in the middle. they talked about politics quite a lot? it was just when i asked them who they voted for and why they voted for them and how it came about. and i thought, can they both not be right? can my mum's mum and dad not be successful and have their own business and, to be fair, be able to thrive and employ people? but also can we not look after my dad's mum and dad? who she can't work, she needs looking after, she was living in social housing, she needed care. were you in a sense trying to split the difference? because you love both sets of grandparents, your loved your mum and dad, were you trying to say there is something in both points view here? i can'tjust hate tories. i can't just fear the labour party. you either pick a side and you say, no, my dad's mum and dad are right, we go staunch red, or my mum's mum and dad are right and i go, no, i have to have conservatives in power to look after the economy and allow growth and wealth to prosper. i thought why can't we have both? surely there is a society where people who are doing well still want to look after people who aren't doing as well and we want to try and drive them up? it's like a football team. you sound very like tony blair. that was exactly his thing for the country. is it not what we all think? it's not whatjeremy corbyn thought. i'm not saying it's what every single person in the country thinks but my genuine feeling is that if you do well you will get rewarded but does that then mean that you become selfish and greedy and you don't want to look after other people and allow them to do as well as you can do? to me i just think that my politics are driven from my family upbringing but also from my football. i lived in a dressing room of 2a extremely wealthy young men that had come from probably difficult backgrounds, working class backgrounds, that were being talked to by a govan shipyard worker who had been part of a union, but was also extremely wealthy, but every single time he spoke to us was principled, hard work, attitude, look after one another, never let each other down, don't leave each other on their own, you make sure that team ethic, that spirit stays together, so you are talking about wealthy people but that team culture of making sure you look after one another. let's go back to your parents. we'll come back to alex ferguson. they must have been pretty extraordinary, your mum and dad. they didn'tjust produce one medal winner, one trophy winner, one england international. your brother, phil, of course. you always meet that bit of abuse, don't you, where they say that he was the best footballer in your house? your brother, phil, of course went on to manage the women's team as well. but your sister, tracy, played for england in the netball. what was it about those two individuals on that ordinary streetjust down the road from where we are talking in salford, what was it that they had that made you all winners? instilling into us that you work as hard as you possibly can and they pushed us in the direction. not pushed us, they guided us into the direction of sport. and we loved it, we worked hard, we got up every single day. my motto in life has become attack the day. you get up, you get on with it, you do it, you do your very best, you never give in. i've been very fortunate to have great standards above me all my life, my parents, grandparents, my coaches, my manager. always saying do your very best, never have any regrets, and never give in. you say they didn't push you but i was reading that your dad, a lorry driver, would get up at four in the morning, so he would be back and get you on the training pitch. he would and that's the thing where we were never late, always get there, get yourjob done, get up early, don't put off till tomorrow. i think most people in this country have the attitude. i think we are generally, if you look at the population of this country, i generally think we are a hard—working nation of good people, honest, good backgrounds, and we just need good leadership and direction and we can achieve a lot. you have often said of yourself, let alone other people saying it, you are not the most talented player on that pitch. there are some people like cristiano ronaldo back at old trafford who is one of those people who is a genius in many ways, one of the greats. are you saying, in a way, that your values, your ethos, your belief in hard work, discipline, was what made you such a champion? 100%. the only reason i survived at manchester united for 20 years. i think i knew the game in terms of on the pitch i could organise, i knew where i needed to be myself but i also feel like i could impact other people on the pitch with how they could position themselves. i was made captain of the youth team, the reserve team, and eventually the first team, because i think the boss saw me as someone who could organise on the pitch and have those values and that discipline off the pitch. what is it about business that you find rewarding? that is relatively unusual. you grew up in an era, just after an era probably where footballers if they had a business it was the local pub or the local newsagent. i first got to love united because my newsagent, and i delivered papers, was an ex—united hero in the �*50s. but for you to own, as it were, proper businesses. i love the chase of the deal. so that could be setting up a university. and it has taken eight years to appoint now where our first graduates will come through. that is a long process and that is a big, big... it fuels my adrenaline. the same with the saint michael's development now. let's stick with the university. the idea behind it, the concept was as simple as this, was it? kids like gary neville, kids who grew up and never dreamt of going to university or getting a degree, could, and it would help them get on their way. it's a shocker. ultimately i would never have dreamt of going to university when i was younger, irrespective of the football side of things. there is a large part of the population in this country who don't believe university is for them because of where they are born, the school they go to, what their parents have done, and the reality is it is just wrong. i know at this moment in time the government use the phrase levelling up, but it is one of the things we need to do. we need to make sure education is available for everybody, and notjust 18 to 21—year—olds when it comes to higher education, it is the adult population who wants to retrain. you referred to the phrase the government used, levelling up. you then stop to yourself, saying, "i know what you think," you hate that phrase. hate it. why? cameron and 0sborne were a little bit more sophisticated than johnson, obviously. they came up with the northern powerhouse. nowjohnson and his lot have come up with levelling up. you don't need a campaign phrase, a pr campaign, a slogan. you just need to do stuff. you just need to get things done. i guess what they would say, the only reason there is a mayor of greater manchester is because the tories created the mayor of greater manchester, and they are looking at creating many more mayors around the country. they would say they have actually done something. let's turn to football because it's quite an interesting test of whether levelling up means anything at all. because when this club that you and i both love, manchester united, were part of an attempt to set up a european super league, love him or loathe him, it was actually boris johnson that helped stop it, wasn't it? no, it wasn't. you don't believe it? not a chance. i've talked to people who went in to number ten who say he knew nothing about football but he understood that this was a global competition against local businesses. he hasn't got a clue about football but anyway, that man will have known about it, he will have basically let it breathe, like he does, he used to feed things to the mail on sunday 2a hours before, test it out, see how it lies, and then decide whether it becomes an announcement the next day. if the european super league had been received positively, he would have gone with it. he blows with the wind. european super league was received so negatively, he then says, "this is not right," and distances himself from it. he didn't stop that. the fact is, for people who don't care about football — you and i know it matters — if you're not a supporter of manchester united but all those clubs in lancashire — tiny clubs with great histories that represent their towns — explain to people listening why should they care? because i think in this country we have traditions and principles and values of fair competition. i think growing up what i believed great britain was was a country that had standards and we were viewed around the world and were quite popular. whether that is right or wrong, that is how i thought great britain was as a youngster. and the idea of creating a league where it is not fair, where it's not equal, where teams like leicester or everton or grimsby town can never get into it is just wrong. it is elitist, it's selfish, it's greedy, it's of the time. and notjust that, they were scheming, while every other club in the country was basically struggling like mad and some going bankrupt and bust or nearly going bust, they were scheming. which is why you backed the idea of a regulator, you pushed it very hard. idid. there is a government review, by a conservative mp, interestingly, tracey crouch. and she's done an excellent piece of work. do you think you're going to get it? i think so, because i think that ultimately, the fan—led review that was part of the conservative party's manifesto in last election has now happened, it is emphatic, it has been backed by everybody — apart from, obviously, the premier league — and there is overwhelming support for it and i hope it will then go through parliament. what i find interesting is in football, it brings together the different values of your different grandparents. 0n the one hand, it is all about capitalism, isn't it? yep, absolutely. it's about the free market and players from all over the world and globalisation. 0n the other hand, what you call socialism — i'm not sure everybody would — you are interested in protecting the local, protecting identities, making sure that young local players, young english players can get a shout. is that tension resolvable? in the end, isn't there just a contradiction? but, nick, bury football club went bust over £3 or £4 million when £300 or £400 million is paid to agents every year. football at this moment in time is struggling structurally. however, the premier league is a fantastic product and i wouldn't want to change that for the world. so your idea is a little bit like politics, it's a little bit like my politics — let's have some values and principles at the top of the game which mean that we do protect the sort of what would be community clubs, but let's have a thriving premier league at the top which is exported around the world and loved in this country, but loved everywhere. you do keep reminding me of the values and politics of tony blair. it is what the germans used to call �*the social market economy�* — that you can have both the social and the market. you can have both. at this moment in time, i don't care whether you are labour, liberal democrat, green or conservative, you cannot be happy with this particular government in terms of how it is behaving, how it is acting, the standards that it is setting. they're having to have crisis meetings every single day now, for probably 12 months, on matters that should not even be on the table. that takes away from dealing with the massive issues in energy, education, health, brexit. that should be enough in itself to be able to make sure they change the leader. now, if anybody has tuned in late, they are hearing you talking, thinking, "is that gary neville the footballer and the commentator or is it a politician? " you sound increasingly like someone — and i don't mean this insultingly — who feels passionately. i feel passionately. you said the other day you wanted to make a change when you were 50. how old are you now? i am a6, i've got three orfour years left. and then? i don't know. honestly, i don't know. i think after three or four years, i think the businesses hopefully will be stabilised, you know, in a position whereby i'm not taking anything else on at the moment so the businesses that i have at this moment in time, i think in three orfour years hopefully will be in a really good place and enable me to go on and do something else. how about i give you two? because andy burnham stops being mayor of greater manchester in two years�* time. i don't really... you'd be well qualified for that. i love greater manchester and i love every borough in greater manchester. i'm not sure that would be for me, to be honest with you. you said you would be a nightmare as mayor the other day. i think ithinki i think i would. i think i would because i'd want to get too much done too quickly. when you say about politics, i hate politics. when i say i "hate politics" i don't mean i hate politics as in labour, conservative. i don't like politics in life, in my businesses, in family. let's get it out on the table. let's have a discussion about it. you mean politics like manoeuvring. manoeuvring. backstabbing. yeah, backstabbing all that sort of crap. get rid of that. let's have some honesty. i get the facts sometimes you have to play the game. i get the fact you can't have everything all at once, you have to bring people on the journey, manoeuvring to a position so everyone is with you before you move, i get that — i have learnt that in the last ten years with things i have done wrong in business, like trying to get planning permission through without having the community on side and other mistakes i've made. i get that there has to be an element of communication and manoeuvring into a position but, at this moment in time, they are absolute bluffers. your description of wanting to do things, to make changes, but without all that politics, that is a description of an elected mayor. that is, love him or loathe him, what borisjohnson was able to do as mayor of london, what sadiq khan can now do, it's what andy burnham has enjoyed. i knew him when he was a member of parliament, of course. what he has enjoyed about being mayor of greater manchester. isn't that the sort of thing, it might not be the job you yet know you want? it doesn't feel like something i'm going to do, nick. it doesn't feel like i'm going to be an mp. idon�*t feel like i'm an mp, ifeel like... you are not saying never? no, i'm not, because the reality of it is i feel annoyed at the moment by what i'm seeing — the lack of leadership. i think labour, to be fair, i think they have improved in the last month, got stronger. you got quite cross with keir starmer — you thought he was pulling his punches. i think, yeah, probably end of 2020, i thought labour should have been a lot stronger. when the tier systems came in, the lockdowns, what would be discriminatory lockdowns against parts of the country, greater manchester, not liverpool, i thought that was the start of the division and i think labour had them at that point. i would be open with keir about this, i don't think he was strong enough at that point. now i think he realises he needs to take the gloves off. he needs to go for him. and you are backing him? 100%, i would back him. yeah, because at this moment in time people would say, "well, keir starmer — is he good enough to be the labour leader?" i think he has got integrity and competence well above boris johnson. but people — millions of people voted for him. i can only hope that was about brexit, it was about the passion that people felt towards leaving the eu, towards this idea of nationalism which i actually — i'm — i love england. i played for my country 85 times. the national anthem was there, i never sang it sometimes and i regret that now, but never let people think that wasn't me being passionate about my country. i love this country. i think it is the best country in the world. and that might be naivety for many. when we go on holiday sometimes, we think "it's over here" but i think england is the best country in the world. i love the people. and to me, i don't think the guy running this country represents any of us and i can only hope it was the brexit thing that meant that millions of people voted for him. what is interesting about that is that your philosophy of team, you could argue as a businessman, as a social entrepreneur — if you want to use that phrase, setting up this university — it is in your interest to bite your lip, because you have to work with the tories, locally and in government, and it is better that you say, "levelling up, great, good! "that's exactly the sort of thing i want." for instance, tracey crouch is a conservative mp, she has done the piece of work on football regulation, i think it is an outstanding piece of work by obviously someone who is an extremely talented mp. if i see someone who has done a brilliant piece of work, i will say it, and that is from a conservative mp. if i see someone who has done a poor piece of work that is a labour mp, i will also say that as well. so it is not about — sometimes, when i speak, it's not about labour, it's not about conservative. i think everybody should be absolutely raging at this moment in time. if you had to back another tory prime minister, you may end up with one, is there someone you can see? i think sunak will take over. i mean, where was he yesterday, my friend? where was he? hejust appeared, didn't he, about half eight on twitter? popped up and said, "sorry i've been out all day." i mean, seriously, come on! he is not having us over with that one, is he? i did a longer than normal introduction to this podcast because i knew there would be people listening on radio four, watching on bbc news, who are not big football fans, they don't watch sky sports, they might — perish the thought — not know who gary neville is. but i think they may have this question, which is should we really care what a footballer, albeit an ex—footballer, thinks about the world or politics? they may even think "he should stick to football". i get that on twitter — "stick to football". people have stopped saying that to me now. but the reality of it is i would want to be treated as any other member of this country that has a right to be able to speak out. i am an employer. i invest in greater manchester. i invest in businesses. i love teams, all of the idea of being together. i hate division, your cliques, politics behind moving into places. the reason i am speaking out started out with the fact there were ministers talking about football players in a way i didn't feel was right, then we had ministers talking about taking the knee in the summer in the european championships — which, again, i thought was deeply divisive and wrong — and now, we are in a situation whereby notjust myself but a number of other football people, sports figures, actors have decided what we are seeing at this moment in time isn't right and it is just down to basic family values of growing up when your parents say, "that's not right, son." final question, then. you've got to go into politics, haven't you? you can'tjust be the spectator, the commentator. that's the danger. you are brilliant at it, everyone knows you are brilliant at it. you've got to get on the pitch. do you know something? i say to myself sometimes, "i'm able to communicate. "i know what i want. "i have got a business mind. "i can manage people in respect of businesses, but ijust think i'd get eaten alive." the idea that you are not in the bubble, not in the mix. i don't know what whitehall�*s like, westminster is like, but i can only imagine what you have to do there to survive, and i don't play the game. and they'd come for me and they'd eat me alive. i'll have you a bet at the end of this podcast, gary neville. you will do something in politics. but do i want to expose myself to that? you will do something in politics! i have joined, in the last few days, the labour party. that is purely for myself. i want to support labour. if keir starmer picks up the phone and says, "i want you to be a bit more than a member, gary neville. "i need you." i don't know. at the moment, no, i'lljust continue to do this, i think, and make sure... look, people would say, "why are you using your influence to try and sort of turn people...?" at this moment in time, i would go more quiet if this current regime that is in left. i think they are very damaging to the standards that we have in this country and around the world. i think boris now needs to do the right thing, allow someone else to come in and let there be a general election in a couple of years between keir starmer and the next, hopefully, tory conservative prime minister, who has got some standards and integrity. and there have been some conservative leaders that we have seen — i think theresa may and john major had far more integrity than borisjohnson, far more integrity. they are better people. and that is a fair fight, then, between keir starmer and another person. we have to stop there but i think we are clear what you think about borisjohnson! i think we are clear what you think about the future of the country as well. gary neville, thanks so much forjoining me on political thinking. thank you. well, perhaps gary hasn't made his mind up yet. perhaps he is rather nervous about the cost of going into politics. about whether his style would really work. but it's pretty clear he has got the views, he's got the values, he's got the experience that suggests he could have a new career in shaping our political thinking. thanks for watching. hello there. there's not a lot of rain in the forecast over the week ahead. it will be quite cold most nights, and we start with a frost on monday morning — more especially across england, wales, and northern ireland with clearer skies. some patches of mist and fog, especially across parts of wales and the west country. those will lift in the morning and there will be a lot of sunshine for most of us and light winds, too. there's more cloud up towards the north and north—west of scotland, where the winds are a bit stronger — not as windy, though, as it was during sunday. and temperatures in the afternoon 8 or 9 degrees — not bad for the time of year. high pressure is going to be dominating the weather. we'll find these weather fronts approaching from the north—west during tuesday but, under the centre of the high, where the winds are light, we will find more fog to start off with on tuesday — especially across parts of the midlands, east anglia, and the south—east. it may well only slowly lift into mist and low cloud. there will be more cloud around, i think, in general on tuesday, and a weak weather front will bring some rain across northern ireland and eventually into some western parts of scotland. but lifting temperatures into double figures here. a bit of a chillier day where it's misty in england and wales. welcome to bbc news — i'm david eades. our top stories: no turning back. novak djokovic has touched down in dubai after being deported from australia over the country's vaccine policy. we'll be live with our correspondent near dubai airport — and get the mood in melbourne as the australian 0pen begins without the men's number one. the man who took four people hostage at a synagogue in texas is confirmed as a 44—year—old british citizen. now, uk police make two arrests in manchester. surveillance flights head to the pacific island nation of tonga to assess the damage caused by a volcanic eruption and tsunami.

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