i'm ross, welcome to this week's edition of the media show. and there's no doubt where the big media stories of the week, the columnist of the new york times has announced he is leaving the paper and is joining forces withjustin smith, and the relation, who has been head of bloomberg media to create a new news organisation within the next 20 years, it could take on the mighty cnn, new york times, bbc and others. ben smith as our guest on the media show today and ben, iwould guest on the media show today and ben, i would like to understand a little bit more about what you are planning. {iii about what you are planning. of course, and yes, thank you for having me. there's been a tonne written and all of these places and there is left to read about what we're doing. basically, we think there's a huge space to create a new global news organisation. 0bviously, we're going to start off in a handful of markets and try to be competitive domestically to give people who i think, if you talk to people certainly in the us in the uk, and many other places, if you look up and you ask them, are you delighted are you satisfied with the way the news being delivered to you as you're getting, they will most likely say no. unfortunately. and there's a lot of things that we hope we can do well and one is hiring the great journalists and having their names, theirfaces prominent names, their faces prominent enough names, theirfaces prominent enough that the audience can feel like they know who they are their news from if you're connected to the people they're getting their news from without stepping away from having a real news organisation and to guarantee that trust in the style and the voice stoplights of this is sub stack with newsroom attached? subtext, and all the town industries, the whole media industries, certainly the entertainment industries has shifted in a way that individuals a journalist like you and me have direct connections with audiences and social media and love institutions like the bbc, the new york times, in which the brand, you are talking to the brand. and i think these days, the reality is, audiences are connected and that's a big challenge for any of these organisations to try to find balance of those two i think it's one of the things are starting from scratch really helps your advantage. you sound like ou helps your advantage. you sound like you can _ helps your advantage. you sound like you can see _ helps your advantage. you sound like you can see a _ helps your advantage. you sound like you can see a gap _ helps your advantage. you sound like you can see a gap which - like you can see a gap which the bbc, the ft, the new york times, the washington post, cnn and others have not spotted. i wouldn't say they haven't spotted them. may be different over there but we talk to people in the us newsrooms, they're really concerned about how alienated their audiences, how alienated their audiences, how many people they've lost, how many people they've lost, how many people they've lost, how many surveys and directly in e—mails, tweets, how unhappy they are with what we are doing. and there's certainly a huge audience that feels the need for the news and there's a lot of different things happening in one of them is that the nooses been poisoned by social media, not saying that what is my favourite place in the world but there is form of journalism in the world but there is form ofjournalism that in the world but there is form of journalism that you in the world but there is form ofjournalism that you tweeted something and i'm going to read the trending story to find something to be my pre—existing opinion and i will feed it back to you and you will share it because your views are being affirmed and while that is sort of a cheap high a of consumers who prefers that you tweet them and say hey, i dug into it next to the situation is more complicated and more interesting. {iii complicated and more interesting.— complicated and more interesting. of listed the thin . s interesting. of listed the things that _ interesting. of listed the things that you - interesting. of listed the things that you just - interesting. of listed the j things that you just said, polarisation via social media and the risk of targeting people who already agree with what you're saying, the need to further engage with audiences, i would imagine all the biggest news organisations in the world would say yes, those are challenges for us. i would imagine what are you going to offer that is different to what is being offered by all of the big news organisations of the moment which would mean you managing to address that more successfully than they are. for one thing. _ successfully than they are. igrr' one thing, being run this business and having done new things, were not pivoting the video, were not doing one simple thing. i think the combination of great talent and for that to be another enormous change and continuing to have things to look like newspaper articles and that's not the way people want to consume information. if you look across the industry, buzz feed and all sorts of different places, there's a lot of innovation there's a lot of innovation there and i think we are eager to push that forward. i been saying this is my first day and we haven't absolutely note that down but that's a huge direction and opening and i do think, this is where not less of an issue for the bbc but everywhere else, all the big stories in the world are fundamentally global and coronavirus, the rest of the far right, the stories that are covered by the press likes city hall problems are what are the president do wrong and often a lot, that is a great story. you can also really misunderstand the stores if you don't see the commonalities between what's happening between the groups. totally banal thing to say if you read the national coverage, it is the opening and more broadly on the internet, there is a huge amount of people, our generation who are connected on the internet were consuming a lot of the same news and when they read the national press of they read the national press of the united states or great britain, do not feel like it's done well. figs britain, do not feel like it's done well-— britain, do not feel like it's done well. �* , , ., done well. as i listen to you, there's been _ done well. as i listen to you, there's been a _ done well. as i listen to you, there's been a central- there's been a central contradiction to your plan reversing the people one further in depth, and partial coverage of what is happening in for the explanation needed republican emphasis and large in the past 20 years, the most high—profile individuals with the news have been news providers. rupert murdoch putting together tv station here in the uk built around piers morgan who son of a football salary direct. find football salary direct. and it's a shame _ football salary direct. and it's a shame that - football salary direct. and it's a shame that he - football salary direct. and it's a shame that he got i football salary direct. fific it's a shame that he got there before we did. it's easier to build a brand around an individual with a strong opinion. i think that's certainly one of the trends of the last few years is this rise opinion and opinion blurring into news. i would say i don't think consumers are brought the throat with the way the news industry is with that development. some are in the business out maybe for a lot of the businesses that's very successful for them the businesses that's very successfulfor them but the businesses that's very successful for them but my own experiences of the times in my journalism means that people respond strongly to the stories that don't disguise the journalists, or at the same time, the space for fundamentally inspiration from the very smart reader to disagree with.— the very smart reader to disagree with. and d'okovic sto is disagree with. and d'okovic story is fl disagree with. and d'okovic story is one of h disagree with. and d'okovic story is one of the h disagree with. and djokovic story is one of the biggest l disagree with. and djokovicl story is one of the biggest in the world at the time. how would you handle that as opposed to others we do it? fine opposed to others we do it? one thinks this _ opposed to others we do it? one thinks this would _ opposed to others we do it? (he: thinks this would compete opposed to others we do it? i>iez thinks this would compete with everybody and one of the things that i've done in my career where you just need to do is break huge stories and that story, fast and delivered in a great way with someone that you feel you have a relationship and you trust. but also who is not pandering and not giving you the propaganda that you crave and i don't think it's actually rocket science and having been in waves of innovation, i don't think anyone who tells you, we figured out the one thing, how, this isn't that kind of business. b. this isn't that kind of business.— this isn't that kind of business. �* , ., business. a practical question that ou business. a practical question that you know _ business. a practical question that you know very _ business. a practical question that you know very well, - that you know very well, breaking news is an expensive bill business, people forgot stories that do not come to fruition. if you want to work on stress the global stage, you have to hire a lot of people. have you thought about what kind of scale news you're trying to build? fist kind of scale news you're trying to build?— kind of scale news you're trying to build? at the group rehirin: trying to build? at the group rehiring the _ trying to build? at the group rehiring the journalists - trying to build? at the group rehiring the journalists and l trying to build? at the group. rehiring the journalists and -- rehiring the journalists and —— i think we will be hiring. a lot ofjournalists were lot of journalists were restless and craving something new. �* , . , , ., restless and craving something new. ., , new. let's assume that happens the hives and _ new. let's assume that happens the hives and brilliant _ the hives and brilliant journalists and you start making some innovative and differentjournalism. what is the business model that you hope to serve? i the business model that you hope to serve?— the business model that you hope to serve? i think we aim to blend advertising _ to blend advertising subscription events and other businesses, but that's the core of the media business and if you look at my partnerjustin bosse plus career at the atlantic —— justin's career. and he worked a bus feed news. in your monitoring very closely with what they've done in the area, it is challenging for anyone new to enter an arena where a big beast like the new york times and others have been around for an awfully long time. have you looked at how this news businesses have fared and learned some lessons, perhaps?— and learned some lessons, --erhas? ~ , and learned some lessons, n-erhas? ~ , ., perhaps? absolutely, as part of the team which _ perhaps? absolutely, as part of the team which had _ perhaps? absolutely, as part of the team which had a _ perhaps? absolutely, as part of the team which had a big - perhaps? absolutely, as part of| the team which had a big impact on me. and there have been some new entrants into this very old business of shaking it up and had a lot of impact. the uk, the morning news people seem to read them right now. and they really came in very hot and particularly on the editorial side showed how big an audience there is for someone new. i think they all have taken a while to figure out their business models and there's a lot to it. that business models and there's a lot to it. �* , ., ~ business models and there's a lotto it. �* , lot to it. at stake political. political targets _ lot to it. at stake political. political targets a - lot to it. at stake political. | political targets a particular subject of society, those who work in media or politics and people who leave their politico in the morning, it would be a very small percentage in london but the target audience, for them, perhaps will be higher. are you trying to make a product that targets high income individuals who may be appealing to advertisers, or are you trying to make news for everyone?— everyone? literally only the bbc tries — everyone? literally only the bbc tries to _ everyone? literally only the bbc tries to make _ everyone? literally only the bbc tries to make news - everyone? literally only the bbc tries to make news for| bbc tries to make news for everyone. any other publication in the world thinks of other audiences. i think is a class of mostly educated and self educated people who are reading all of our work on the internet and talking to each other all over the place in places like nigeria and india and are consuming global news who were not before. and even more in the us. ., , ., the us. you 'ust left a business _ the us. you just left a business that - the us. you just left a business that targets | the us. you just left a - business that targets those kinds of consumers, the new york times as the kinds of people and wants to have subscribing to its content, how do you explain to all of us why the new york times has been so effective in driving subscriber numbers in the last few years? the times in the us, it's been a delight to be there and help us try to understand the success which is totally real. there are lots of reasons. 1700 journalists, great ones, the right big stories and it benefits nicely and in the sense that there are the key voice of reality check and it is an interesting story of a broad media business where their products are driving in huge shares.— their products are driving in hue shares. ,., huge shares. prevent some the best journalists _ huge shares. prevent some the best journalists in _ huge shares. prevent some the best journalists in the - huge shares. prevent some the best journalists in the world, i bestjournalists in the world, —— but if you want to hire some of the bestjournalists in the world, who is paying for it? not ready break that news but we are truly confident that we will have good sources and having been prayed with in various places, i am may be particularly restless. i think manyjournalists particularly restless. i think many journalists are particularly restless. i think manyjournalists are eager for a new thing. pendulum swing as it always does in this industry, ten years ago towards lots of new stuff and sort of a rush of people like back to the new york times, back to the safety of these big established institutions and i think there's a lot of appetite among journalists, actually, to try something new.— journalists, actually, to try something new. could they be --eole of something new. could they be people of strong _ something new. could they be people of strong opinions - something new. could they be people of strong opinions who j people of strong opinions who are known for being public and strident about how they see the world? �* , ., strident about how they see the world? �*, ., ., ., , ., world? it's hard to answer that in the abstract, _ world? it's hard to answer that in the abstract, but _ world? it's hard to answer that in the abstract, but i _ world? it's hard to answer that in the abstract, but i think- in the abstract, but i think basically, i don't want to hire people who are fair—minded readers going to think that they cannot totally trust them on the subject. for any reason. including because they have such a public steak in the site of an argument that you as a normal person are going to feel like it's going to be hard to trust them.— like it's going to be hard to trust them. �* , ., trust them. and interesting to ask that question _ trust them. and interesting to ask that question because - ask that question because rupert murdoch is investing heavily in the opinion and sub stack is based on people whose opinions are really valuable in and of themselves outside of the larger organisation. presumably, opinion has to be part of the equation. i presumably, opinion has to be part of the equation.— part of the equation. i don't think we — part of the equation. i don't think we have _ part of the equation. i don't think we have to _ part of the equation. i don't think we have to worry - part of the equation. i don't think we have to worry too l part of the equation. i don't - think we have to worry too much about that. there are ways we can get the scoops and breaking news and, i'm an open—minded analysis without that kind of strident opinion that's about affirming peoples pre—existing beliefs. affirming peoples pre-existing beliefs. ., ., beliefs. how are you planning to handle _ beliefs. how are you planning to handle opinion? _ beliefs. how are you planning to handle opinion? you - beliefs. how are you planning i to handle opinion? you would've been well aware with the new york times as the big row internally.— york times as the big row internally. after the article mi . ht internally. after the article might be _ internally. after the article might be used _ internally. after the article might be used to - internally. after the article might be used to respond | internally. after the article i might be used to respond to internally. after the article - might be used to respond to blm protests. and how might that inform your approach to covering subjects on which staff do not agree? i covered that at the — staff do not agree? i covered that at the time. _ staff do not agree? i covered that at the time. the - staff do not agree? i covered | that at the time. the summer staff do not agree? i covered . that at the time. the summer of 2020 was extraordinary and sometimes it's hard to separate what happens in newsrooms from what happens in newsrooms from what was happening in the offices and companies and everywhere else. i and a dozen of the make sense that outside of the make sense that outside of the make sense that outside of the context it was happening everywhere else and in of the context it was happening everywhere else an- everywhere else and in the moment. _ everywhere else and in the moment, this _ everywhere else and in the moment, this racial- everywhere else and in the i moment, this racial reckoning in the peak of the coronavirus, there was this very intense conversation about these issues boiling for a long time. and an american newsrooms, i think there's long been the steel that there was this tacit agreement that they want diversity in the want black journalists to have this unspoken condition that they never complained about racism. which is, and i think that broke down and part of the news from the explosion was really about that. i also think that, actually don't mean speak typically about the time here, but i do think corporate leadership across industries has this outsized reaction to twitter, this reaction even to employees voicing complaints that we must immediately chop someone's head off and delivered to them on a platter. and i don't think that's what people internally want. so, i think, is a specific moment in time but also corporate manager reactions are huge part of the story. reactions are huge part of the sto . ., , ., reactions are huge part of the sto . , reactions are huge part of the sto . ., , ., , reactions are huge part of the sto . , ., story. lots of people looked at that specific — story. lots of people looked at that specific moment - story. lots of people looked at that specific moment and - story. lots of people looked at l that specific moment and looked at how newsrooms are handling it and said actually, what we're seeing is a generational divide between how younger journalists see the issue of freedom of speech and how older gentlemen see the issue of freedom of speech. did you buy into that analysis that that is the case?— into that analysis that that is the case? �* ., ., ,, . the case? i'm freedom of speech is the right _ the case? i'm freedom of speech is the right term. _ the case? i'm freedom of speech is the right term. order - is the right term. order journalists _ is the right term. order journalists arguing - is the right term. order journalists arguing that| is the right term. order - journalists arguing that yes, we should run this, even if it's highly offensive to us, whereas the younger journalists are saying, actually there's just no place for this whatsoever in our media organisation.— whatsoever in our media organisation. yeah, ithink there's a — organisation. yeah, ithink there's a bit _ organisation. yeah, ithink there's a bit of— organisation. yeah, ithink there's a bit of a _ organisation. yeah, ithink. there's a bit of a generational shift around that and around the notion that is speech harmful and where's the line and what about an op—ed from the taliban from vladimir putin and also i don't think, i don't think the things happening and 2020 were about speech but more about race. there is a generational shift on that particular question. and there's a wide range of these conversations and with the healthy things in this environment is that there are going to be different variations of different views and some of these questions. $5 and some of these questions. as i'm listening to you, the issue of trust becomes ever more fundamental to news organisations. trust between employees and the organisations and trust between organisations and trust between organisations and the audience. do you think thatis and the audience. do you think that is a significant calculation as you create this new news media organisation, how you re—engage with trusting the news? i how you re-engage with trusting the news? ~ �* , how you re-engage with trusting the news? ~' �* , ., how you re-engage with trusting the news? ~' �*, ., , the news? i think there's a big opportunity — the news? i think there's a big opportunity and _ the news? i think there's a big opportunity and often - the news? i think there's a big opportunity and often if - the news? i think there's a big opportunity and often if you i opportunity and often if you talk to people about the news, they say, you need to read between the lines and means a lot of different, it means a lot of different, it means a lot of different things to a lot of different things to a lot of people. everybody hates us these days for a wide variety of reasons. i think it's an opportunity and i think, proving in various ways that you're open—minded and that you're open—minded and that you're open—minded and that you can and that the reader can trust she was a sensual. reader can trust she was a sensual-— reader can trust she was a sensual. �* . , ., ., sensual. and ended decision and thinkin: sensual. and ended decision and thinking that _ sensual. and ended decision and thinking that this _ sensual. and ended decision and thinking that this may _ sensual. and ended decision and thinking that this may have - sensual. and ended decision and thinking that this may have had l thinking that this may have had an impact on trust between the people in the media. the editor published this containing allegations containing donald trump in russia, you justify publishing it all the same because you said this dossier was being shared in washington and therefore it was relevant. but a lot of what was that it has not been established to be true. did that impact trust between america and their news media? i between america and their news media? ~' ., , ., media? i think the details of the story _ media? i think the details of the story really _ media? i think the details of the story really matter. - media? i think the details of. the story really matter. which describes in early january of 2017, and after this document had been the president of the united states and the president—elect donald trump and it was circulating in us senators and diplomats were reading it and making decisions based on it, cnn reported that there is this document and there's a secret document with compromising information on the president of the united states. and that is the context in which reviewed it. and, it's perfectly reasonable as a lot of people were, looking at this document and being sceptical of the trailer and on the information. once people are out there saying, i hold in my hand the secret document compromising the present am i going to show you what it is, that to me was a situation which will, we should actually show the audience what it is. here's this document, you know it exists, better that you see it exists, better that you see it then you are just told that there is a secret document with compromising information about the president. but it will burn your eyes out if you look at it. we had not only been able to knock it down but there were errors in it and you should be careful. ., , ., , careful. two questions here, the question _ careful. two questions here, the question of— careful. two questions here, the question of whether - careful. two questions here, the question of whether you | the question of whether you should've published it, which you just addressed it as a secondary question about whether publishing it impacts on trust in the news media because the reality is many americans are saying that the volume of attention and particularly the liberal us media paid to the allegations run donald trump and russia combined with the fact that not all of those allegations added up, or eroded trust and significant sections of the society. do you think that is the case? i society. do you think that is the case?— the case? i think i was true and it's what _ the case? i think i was true and it's what were - the case? i think i was true and it's what were talking l and it's what were talking about earlier that there was a, sort of, and pull some cable news to tell people what they wanted to hear, and impulsive and often feel in this business for he felt like the indictments of donald trump a right around the corner. that is a complicated story because there was in fact this very unusual leaks centric operation unusual lea ks centric operation that unusual leaks centric operation that purportedly was staged by the russians the donald trump had. so, it was a question worth asking about donald trump and russia and on the other hand, donald trump politics are essential for attacking the media. and they really had a very powerful megaphone to do it. so trust in the media was eroded because he did a great job of doing it an independent of the russian investigation. far predating the russian investigation. that set a lot of those dynamics up there really present there.- of those dynamics up there really present there. lots of different dynamics - really present there. lots of different dynamics that - really present there. lots of different dynamics that led l really present there. lots of. different dynamics that led to an erosion of trust which leads us to the point were 0k, what can i do this new organisation that potentially addresses that an extra talking, a thing about tech websites which sometimes publish amounts of information attached aware of things are being sourced from. is that too much for the average consumer or to techniques like that work in terms of building back the trust that has potentially been eroded? i trust that has potentially been eroded? ~ ., , , trust that has potentially been eroded? ~ . , ~, , eroded? i think transparency is important _ eroded? i think transparency is important and _ eroded? i think transparency is important and transparency - eroded? i think transparency is| important and transparency can take the form of one too many footnotes. butjust in general, i think it's really early to spitball about the formal details, but i think specifically the notion that you feel that yes, not only is this coming from a journalist that you trust, but if you wanted to, you could reproduce their work is contextually important in one of the greatest gifts of the internet. the documents, the source materials can be shared. none of the stuff is easy full proof. of the stuff is easy full roof. ., ., , proof. one of the greatest thins proof. one of the greatest things that _ proof. one of the greatest things that people - proof. one of the greatest things that people can - proof. one of the greatest l things that people can share information freely but with the individual country, their different rules on the internet and i would imagine there are certain countries for your new organisation may struggle to share externalism. {lii organisation may struggle to share externalism. of course. china being — share externalism. of course. china being giant _ share externalism. of course. china being giant and - share externalism. of course. china being giant and obvious| china being giant and obvious example. a huge challenge to anybody is this increasing balkanisation of the internet and a sense of some national governments and the realisation that this is data travelling on service that had to be located somewhere and hosted by people making stop i think you very much forjoining us on the media show and will check back in with you in a few months to see in with you in a few months to se �*- ., in with you in a few months to se ; ., , see how this new venture is anoin. see how this new venture is going- that _ see how this new venture is going- that is _ see how this new venture is going. that is in _ see how this new venture is going. that is in for - see how this new venture is going. that is in for this - going. that is in for this version of the programme. thank you for watching goodbye. hello there. another cold night, certainly, for england and wales. widespread frost and also some mist and fog reforming. some of it will be quite dense in places to start this morning. but most of the country this weekend will be dry and settled. there will be some showers around, though, as a weak front spreads its way across the uk. here it is out west in the atlantic for saturday. but you can see its higher pressure towards the south and the east of the country. lightish winds again through the morning. so that means we will start off rather cloudy, misty, murky. some fog around too. most of that fog lifting into low cloud through the day, so quite a bit of grey weather, i think, around. but there will be some sunshine around, the best of it in northern england, into northern and eastern scotland, northern ireland as well into the afternoon, perhaps southwest england too. temperatures, 5—9 degrees for most of us. more of a breeze coming up from the southwest, so that means the air quality should be a bit better for london and the southeast. now, as we head through saturday night, most places will be dry, bar the odd shower around. further north, we've got that weather front spreading down from the north. that'll bring a band of cloud and rain, some blustery showers following in behind there. and temperatures, 1—4 degrees across the board, so not quite as cold as what we've had the last few nights. as we head on into sunday, we've got that weak cold front spreading southwards across england and wales. there will be barely anything on it, so a band of cloud, just some spots of rain slowly pushing southwards. behind it, skies will brighten up, but it will be a breezy day right across the board. there are more isobars on the pressure chart. even windy across the north of scotland, with gales in the northern isles. temperature—wise, pretty much where we should be looking at this time of year, ranging from around 7 to 9 degrees. we could see 10 or 11 degrees across southern england and south wales. now, as we move out of sunday into monday, that weather front clears away and then high pressure builds back in it once again. that'll settle things down, notjust for monday, for the rest of the week. so it could be quite a chilly start again for monday. light winds for most, apart from northern and western scotland. there will be a bit more cloud here, a bit more of a breeze. and temperatures — again, around the seasonal average — range from around 6 to 9 celsius. now, apart from a few weather fronts across the north of the uk as we move through this new week — that could bring a few showers across the north — most places will be dry and settled thanks to that area of high pressure. but signs of it turning a little bit chillier towards the end of the week. this is bbc news. i'm tim willcox with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. novak djokovic's legal team once again try to stop him being deported from australia after his visa is cancelled for a second time. the us accuses russia of planning to create a pretext to justify invading ukraine. hello and welcome to bbc news. i'm tim willcox. the unvaccinated tennis star novak djokovic is again facing detention in australia after his visa was revoked for a second time. his lawyers are appealing to the federal court and the matter will be heard on sunday morning local time.

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