it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. the world's autocrats do not like to be laughed at. now, that is a political reality my guest today, bassem youssef, understands all too well cos he made his name and won an audience of tens of millions with a satirical comedy show during egypt's popular uprising more than a decade ago. but that revolution quickly morphed into authoritarianism, and youssef fled to the us, taking his gift for comedy with him. did he and do we still expect too much from political satire? bassem youssef in los angeles, welcome to hardtalk. thank you so much for having me on bbc hardtalk. it is a great pleasure. i think it's fair to say, bassem, a lot has happened in the last seven years or so since you left your home country, egypt. when you consider your life today, how much emotional pull does your home country have on you as you sit there in california? well, much less than in the past. i think this was an interesting journey for me. the past ten years, i have gone into changes in my life that i have never thought i would ever go through. i was a heart surgeon, and then i found myself hosting the biggest show in the middle east and then having to leave all of that behind and come to reinvent myself and start all over again in a country that is not mine, performing to an audience that's not mine, with a language that's my second language. so i'm kind of like, i'm in a place now that i'm kind of like looking forward instead of looking back. well, i'm sad to say i'm going to make you look back a little bit before we look forward. i want to look back to a pretty remarkable decision. i think it's fair to say it is not easy to train as a heart surgeon. it takes one heck of a lot of commitment and effort. why on earth, as still a young man in egypt, did you throw all that in to get into comedy and political satire? i have never planned to do that. i mean, despite the fact that i actually went into medicine not liking it very much, but i always joke about the fact that in the middle east, we go into... you have one of three choices — you either become a doctor, an engineer or a disappointment. so i kind of went to kind of follow the predictable route as a doctor, and then when the arab spring happened, so many people kind of went into this kind of existential crisis, and i found myself doing youtube videos that i never thought it would go anywhere. and then suddenly, i'm offered to host a comedy show, and i was a big fan ofjon stewart, but i thought that will not be more than a hobby. and then this is kind of like one—in—a—million chance where it's like, "oh, dreams do come true! so maybe i willjust go into that." so... hang on, you make it sound, bassem, like you just fell into it, you became the sort of accidental comedian... yes. but you've also said some very interesting things. i mean, at one point, i think during the height of your fame, as you say, tens of millions of people were tuning in to watch your satirical shows in 2012, 2013, you said thejoke is mightier than the sword. did you ever really believe that? at a certain point, i believe that, and i think till today, maybe thejoke is not mightier than the sword, but the sword is... but the joke can make the sword very nervous. but as far as might, i think we need to be realistic about the hyperbole of romanticising political satire and comedy against much stronger currents and stronger players, especially if those players are supported by many members of the international community who preach democracy day and night. but at the end of the day, they end up supporting those regimes. so, really, a comedian doesn't have that much on his hand to do. were you ever, in your heart, a revolutionary? cos, you know, we all remember what happened in tahrir square, we remember the passion, the excitement of that spring 2011. as you lived through that and then, you know, your comedy show just took off, were you, in your heart, a revolutionary? i don't even know how to define this word anymore. i have to be honest. the word "revolutionary" has just went into so many emotions and definitions. i definitely wanted to have change, i definitely wanted to have hope. i was trying as much as possible not to idealige my... sorry, i don't know if that's even a word. i wanted to focus more on the comedy and the quality of comedy and political satire without the need to be preachy or "revolutionary", as you said. but unfortunately, because political satire in a way is a way to satirise the status quo, many people will put that definition upon you and then, when you cannot go anymore because of your safety, of your loved ones�* safety, people start to accuse you of bailing out, which i have — even at the height of my show — i never even claimed that i was a revolutionary, i was a leader of free thought. it was something that was kind of projected on me, and i think this is... this comes back to what you said at the beginning of your introduction, is that, are we giving a satire too much credit? and i think we do. i think we do, i think there is... i always said that, even at the height of my show, i said the role of a political satirist stops at the edge of the theatre, or at the screen of the television. there's a lot of people, because they are very, very disappointed because of the performance of their politician or the performance of the serious media, that they turn into comedians. and then, suddenly they start to get their news from comedians, and then, suddenly they put those comedians in a position of leadership. and this is very, very dangerous. and i know it is much more fun to laugh at people that we don't like, but a lot of people become complacent and they sit back waiting for comedians to do the whole job. and this is a very, very skewed way to look at things. that's a very interesting thing you're saying. are you suggesting as you've obviously had a lot of time to reflect on this, that that your satire in egypt and maybe the satire of comedians likejon stewart and john oliver in the united states, is it sometimes actually, even though it seems to be confronting power, it's actually giving power a little bit of comfort because it's a safety valve, it allows people to let off steam, to feel that they're being critical without actually doing anything to change the status quo? if that is true, that is not the fault of satirists or satire because a satirist does hisjob, he points out ridiculous things in the community, in politics, in society, and he makes fun of it. what is done with it, it is not their problem, or it's not their mission. because if you are in a society where satire is established, like england or america, it is not a safety valve because at the end of the day, if people just watch it and they don't do anything, it's not theirfault. and this is what happened after trump won. there was like a million—women march that went out in the streets of los angeles. i remember because i lived here, and then, just a couple of weeks later, there were local elections, and the turnout was 12%. so at the end of the day, people went out for the instagram moment, but they didn't actually do theirjob and they went to the ballot to make a change. and this is the problem of being complacent with like trying to kind of sit down and just like have someone else doing it for you. in countries where satire is not really established, you're really putting your life out there. and when push comes to shove, when my show was stopped, nobody went out in the streets to kind of like demand that the show is back — and i don't want to demand that from them because there's that much they can do, but they instead they kind of like blame people who couldn't continue any more, instead ofjust like doing something about it. interesting that you refer to putting your life on the line. i mean, particularly in a society like egypt was and egypt still is, if you poke fun at power, you are actually doing something potentially quite dangerous in a very literal sense. ijust wonder, again, when you reflect on what you did, whether you were perhaps preoccupied with the danger that you saw to egypt coming from the islamist political factions, and particularly the muslim brotherhood, rather than the dangers that might come with a restoration of military authoritarian power. cos a lot of your very dark, biting humour was directed at the brotherhood and at mohamed morsi in particular. well, a lot of people don't really... they miss a little bit about the timeline because the first year of the show, the military council was still in power and a lot of my show kind of poked fun towards that. and then, the islamists came for a year, and then, i poked fun at them at the authority. and then, the military came, and they were extremely popular. they were loved. i always say, if you think in egypt that religion is sacred, the military is holy. a lot of people, they put the military in a much, much higher place. and when i did it with the muslim brotherhood, their channels were attacking me, they were calling me an infidel, they were like calling for me to be killed. and then when the military came, which are popular, i tried to do myjob too, and i went actually to a whole season trying to do that under the military, but community, society, the balances of power didn't permit me to do, so i tried to do myjob in the three phases of the revolution, 2011, 2012, 2013, all the way to 2014. and then, when it couldn't do it, i had to stop. so it's really... that's really what happened. it's interesting you say you had to stop. i mean, i know you faced legal action from the brotherhood when they were still in power and then when the army took over, well, then you called it a coup and the army were pretty cheesed off with that. but did you really have to stop or did you make more of a lifestyle choice that you felt, "you know what, this kind of humour isn't... there's no space for it any more, i'd be better off getting out of egypt"? were you forced to quit, or did you choose to quit? well, at the end of the day, you know, you have to put your show on a platform. and if the platforms are ordered not to have your show, how could you continue? because that's actually what happened, because i don't know if you know this, but my show was cancelled twice and my show was also... the. . .the satellite signal was jammed twice. that's actually what happened in 2013 and 2014. so there is really not any much you can do if no other platforms can take you, and if networks are scared to have your show and tell you right off that you can't have the show anymore, how can you continue? and then, there was also legal action against me after the muslim brotherhood, where i was slammed with a sham verdict to pay about the equivalent of $50 million because i didn't honour my obligation to the channel who cancelled my show, which is, as you can see, it's a very, very political verdict — not really a juridical verdict. and it was going to be used as a way to jeopardise my safety, my freedom as what we see now, and i had to leave. so it's not really, it was not really like a lifestyle choice. this is an easy question for me to ask and much, perhaps, less easy to answer, but did you feel any sense of guilt walking away from egypt when you knew that thousands and thousands of civil society activists, human rights campaigners, journalists and others were continuing to try to do their work in the country? and, of course, many of them were being arrested, and many, many of them remain behind bars today in sisi's authoritarian egypt. did you feel any sense that, you know, it was the easy option to go away? would you rather that i stayed and be injail — would that have helped those people come out ofjail? i mean, i don't understand. it's a very interesting question — why would i feel any guilt? no, it's a question only based on a very complex, i imagine, decision you had to make about leaving your homeland at a time when you could... yeah, there was a decision, there was a verdict against me, and that verdict would have jeopardised my freedom, and i had to leave in the nick of time because the verdict was actually produced at 12 noon, and i left egypt at 5pm. so it took me five hours to leave. and, yeah, and i don't think that staying there in egypt would have improved the conditions ofjournalists or activists or the civil society. it would just, like, have had, like, added one more person. and i think staying there would not... and this is, again, this comes to my point of putting too much responsibility of someone who was trying to do comedy. political satire should not be dangerous, political satire should not be a statement for someone to go to prison so people can say, "oh, you did yourjob, bravo." because, at the end of the day, if i would have, if my freedom would havejeopardised... none of those civil society people who have, like... i would have actually helped them to get out. so i think it's very easy to sit down and judge other people for the decisions in the comfort of their chairs. i agree. let's switch focus to the united states. you seem to have made a very conscious decision, when you got into the us with your family, to continue comedy, but to say to yourself, "ok, i'm no longer in egypt, i'm not going to spend all of my time sort of reassessing what happened to me and my country, i'm going to actually find humour in this situation as an immigrant coming to a new country, trying to make a new life." was that a very deliberate decision? absolutely, because comedy is a reflection of your truth. when i was in egypt, i was an egyptian living in egypt, being affected by the political powers and the political decisions and discourse of egypt. when i am in the united states, my comedy has to reflect my truth. i'm now an immigrant who came to america as trump, who had very, very strong positions against immigrants and against muslims and against people like me, so my comedy reflected that. i still do political comedy, but i do it in the form of stand—up, and i do it in a way that reflects my truth as an immigrant. because if i go out to theatres and comedy clubs and start to talk, "this is what happened to me, please feel sorry for me," that is, first of all, that's not comedy. and last of all, that is not a reflection of my truth. and at the end of the day, i am right now, i'm a citizen of the united states. what happens in the united states affects me much more than what happens in egypt. it affects my kids, it affects my children of colour, it affects me as an immigrant. the local elections in california affects me much more than the political situation in egypt. it doesn't say that i care about egypt less, but like right now, i'm in a phase where i have to have my comedy being reflected by my truth and my lifestyle and my everyday life. i just wonder whether your commitment to satire is as strong as ever, because, you know, we discussed the limitations of satire in the face of power. do you still believe it is worth engaging in satirical comedy? absolutely. but like, i mean, i can go out there in comedy clubs and i can say whatever jokes i want about authority here and that nothing will happen to me. i'm still committed in satire, but i'm not going to continue doing satire if it's going to put me and my family in harm's way. because, again, i'm not some sort of a warrior or... my commitment is for satire and for the art of comedy, right? and i'm a huge fan ofjon stewart, george carlin, all of those people who are... jim jefferies, when he talks about politics. and this is something that reflects what i go through. so, of course i'm still committed, but as i said in the beginning and i said in the past, and i'm saying now, satire should not be some sort of a social war statement. we have to be... and i think, like, putting too much ideology in satire and comedyjust spoils it. yes, you come from a place of ideology, but there's also the quality of comedy and satire, and i enjoy it. i go to in the middle of america, in realamerica, in the midwest, and i sayjokes about republicans and trump, and i have some people sometimes heckle me and walk out of the seat, but nobody will come and arrest me, which is great. yeah — let me ask you about a different aspect of what you did in egypt and what it meant. you were one of the first entertainers, comedians to launch your career, really, on social media, particularly youtube was very important to you. and it was then that, once you picked up millions of followers on the internet, that you crossed over and became a tv star. at that time, in 2011, 2012, there were so many people writing incredibly optimistic pieces about the power of the internet to help democratisation, to empower people from the bottom up so that they could challenge authority in new ways. i think it's fair to say in 2020, too, we're perhaps a little less optimistic, a little more sceptical. do you feel that the internet hasn't really been that tool for democratisation that we hoped for? well, i think it was just a matter of who got there first. er, 2011 - 2010, 2011, the twitter revolution in iran, the social media revolution in the arab world, it's kind of... these were, like, kind of, the activists and the regular people kind of had a leg up on the government. but then the governments in that region just kind of like knew how to play the game, so they also use the internet and they have their own people and they have their own accounts. so it became of like, who has the more resources in order to continue to appeal for the public. i want to end byjust having you reflect on where you're going now, cos you still do your comedy. as you've said, you do stand—up, you've written comedy, but you do other things too. you've written a really interesting children's book, you know, essentially a book for kids who feel different, to make sense of their experience in a society which kind of "others" them. and, you know, i know it was directly related to your daughter's experience in the united states. you've also launched a sort of platform for healthy eating and wellness — plant b, i think you call it. seems to me that you, bassem youssef, are turning inward. your humour was all about looking outward, and now you're really sort of exploring your inner self in a way. well, comedy, at the end of the day comes from your own truth, right? so if i didn't feel what i felt during the arab revolution, i would have not have done the show. it has to start from inwards so that, again, the children's book is a reflection of my truth because this is the country of my kids right now, and i need to do something for them to support them. my comedy still is outwards because a lot of it is observational comedy, but based on my inner experience, the whole thing about the plant—based diet and wellness, a lot of people don't know that actually i started that in egypt before i left. it was not a rebound. i'd just started that, but it was kind of overshadowed by my political satire show in egypt. and then when that was taken away, that kind of went out in the forefront. because of my medical background, iam interested in wellness and i'm interested in reversing your disease, in using your lifestyle instead of medication, and i am actually having bigger project that is going to come and reveal this year in that space. in comedy, i'm hoping to have my show to be sold as a special — whether to netflix, amazon, one of these streamers, and i hope that my children's book becomes an animated series, and we are in negotiation with that. but other than that, i want to just say that something that is very, very common in interviews like this, and i hope that you have the capacity and the flexibility to hear me because this is very important. many, many times i see activists or civil society people from the third world being interviewed in shows like this one, whether in the united states or in england, and it's all about like, "why is your country going this path? why there is no democracy in your region? why are you leaving the authoritarian leaders getting away with what they do?" but at the same time, i think they fail to miss that their own countries, the democratic—loving countries like the united states and europe, at the end of the day, after a very slight slap on the back of the hand, they support those regimes and they give them all of the weapons and all of the logistic support that they want, so you really can't just put all the blame on us because, at the end of the day, we are individuals, we don't have billions of dollars of resources or f—16 airplanes, or apaches, or whatever weapons you are selling to the region. so i think you should... this is like a question more to your governments instead of just like individuals who only have themselves to look after. but i think it is very hypocritical for governments to talk a lot about democracy and then go and support the same regimes that are not democratic. it's a powerful point. so my final brief question to you is where do you actually feel more comfortable — living in the united states, as you do today, or reflecting on the life you had in egypt? i have in the beginning of the show, i said, i look forward, and i don't have any regrets about the past. and in the same time, i don't dwell about the past. i have lived an interesting journey so far, and i'm very, very happy with what i've done, very proud of my kids and my family having to endure what i have. but i have actually come to a place where i feel comfortable. this is the place where i'm raising my kids. we are proud of our origins as egyptians, but we also very, very appreciative of the new identity and the new citizenships that we have and a new country that we live in. and this is where i have to focus my effort, for myself and for my kids into this country. so i'm more definitely focused and more comfortable in this country. bassem youssef, it's a pleasure to have you on hardtalk. thank you very much. thank you. hello there. on tuesday, sunshine returned to the northern half of the uk. and through the rest of this week, we'll continue to see differences north—south. but we've got a milder, stronger breeze picking up across scotland and northern ireland. england and wales, the winds are going to be much lighter, so we're more likely to have some frost here and increasing amounts of mist and fog too. now, it was pretty damp and grey for many southern parts of the uk on tuesday, but all that low cloud and damp weather is heading out into the english channel, so clearer skies are following on behind. and whilst it's chilly across parts of scotland and northern ireland, a frost more likely in england and wales. not just that, but we're seeing some mist and fog developing, particularly in this area where we have the yellow warning from the met office. and within that area, there are some very busy roads. so with some dense patches of fog, driving conditions could be tricky in the morning. that's when we'll still have some fog around, but it should gradually lift through the day, and for many parts, we should see some sunshine coming through. some sunshine across northern ireland, southern and eastern scotland, much more cloud across the north—west of scotland, although it should be largely dry. quite windy, mind you, and temperatures probably reaching double figures in the north of scotland, nearer 7 or 8 degrees, i think, for england and wales, even with some sunshine. and we've got milder conditions across northern areas because we've got these strong winds coming all the way across the atlantic, around the top of this area of high pressure. and underneath that area of high pressure, this is where we're seeing the frost and the fog. so we start with another frost again on thursday morning, we may well find the fog a little more widespread, not just across some southern parts of england and the midlands, maybe into parts of wales and across northern england for a while. some of that could linger into the afternoon, but for many places, again, we should see some sunshine coming out. and it's a similar story again across scotland and northern ireland — cloudier weather in the north—west of scotland, a little bit damp, as well. still, those temperature contrasts really north—south across the uk. where that fog is slow to lift, it will be quite a cold day. all that cold air is stuck underneath this area of high pressure. stagnant air, really, so fog is tending to become more widespread. and it may well drift its way up into parts of northern ireland and southern scotland. most of the fog, though, on friday will be across england and wales, and it could linger into the afternoon. some sunshine away from that fog and low cloud. and again, it'll always be milder across more northern parts of scotland. this is bbc news. i'm sally bundock, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. new revelations in australia, as novak djokovic releases a statement. the tennis world number one says his agent mistakenly ticked a box saying he had not travelled in the two weeks before arriving in australia. borisjohnson will face mps today as pressure on him grows to explain a drinks party in the downing street garden during the first lockdown in may 2020. president biden makes a passionate plea for reform of voting rights describing it as a defining moment for us democracy. a helicopter, with four people on board, including a two month old baby, crashes in phildalephia, narrowly missing a church and power lines.

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