founder of the health company theranos — is found guilty of fraud over her failed blood testing technology. now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, from new york. this city is testament to the power of science and technology. but we shouldn't be fooled by these gravity defying towers. we are not masters of the universe. covid and climate change remind us of that. and so, too, does my guest today, arguably america's most famous scientist, neil degrasse tyson. his special subject is astrophysics, but his mission goes much wider, to get us all to respect scientific fact. so how's that going? neil degrasse tyson, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. your dayjob is being an astrophysicist, but you are also one of america's leading champions for science. so you tell me why there appears to be such a strain of scepticism among so many americans toward the basics of scientific knowledge. i don't have a good answer for that and i poked around in the ether for what could be behind it and i'm going to give what sounds like an easy sort of cop out answer, and it has to do with how science is taught in the schools. it's currently taught as a body of information, a satchel of facts that are imparted upon you and then you regurgitate that for an exam. that's an aspect of science, but it's not the most important part of science. the most important part of science is knowing how to question things and knowing when an answer has emerged that represents, sort of, an objective truth about this world. and if you think science is just that one research paper that reports the one result that you either like or don't like, no, that's not how science works. it's notjust a block of facts. it's not a block of facts nor is it any one research paper. if you have a brilliant idea and you test it and it unearths so much of what has been known before, we're going to double check that, the rest of us, "did he cross his t's and dot his i's? let me check the power that's driving his experiment, you know, the wall current, let me check how that was conceived and done." and if no—one can duplicate your results it's not a result. but at the time you came up with your result the press came up to you and said, this is amazing, let's make a headline, this undoes the cherished beliefs of generations of scientists, and so it leaves people thinking that science doesn't really ever settle on what is true or what is not, that it's just the whims of whatever experiment gives you and i think it frees people up for thinking that they can establish their own truths. science then requires open minds and it requires curiosity. and i just wonder whether you feel in your country today there is an absence of open minds. the people have lost track of what open mind means. when i say earth is round, you're not being open—minded by saying, you know, i wonder if it could also be flat. you have to know at what point the evidence is sufficient to have established an objectively true understanding of the natural world. and then you move on. and if people don't have those tools to make thatjudgement, they will think that they are being bravely sceptical and bravely open—minded by standing in denial of what entire bodies of scientific evidence produce. and that's a problem. and i will trace that back to how science is taught. it's how it was taught to me, it's how it's taught today. so that is an aspect of it. not only that, we live in a world where, because the internet connects us all and social media makes us all friends, you can type in any crazy idea you have and it will find every other person in this world who shares that crazy idea. you will even find the website that extols that crazy idea and you will believe that you're onto something, simply because other people have affirmed what you think is true. is that where you feel america has been going? so i sometimes wonder, like, has anything i've done made any difference? do you? i sometimes feel that. but then i say to myself, maybe if i didn't do all this, and others who are on this landscape, science educators, on those social media platforms, and there are many, there are dozens, not hundreds, but certainly dozens, maybe without us all things would be much worse. because we don't have the timeline, the worldline that says here's what happened if you didn't do it. right. we don't know that. so that's the mission you feel, the sort of crusade you continue to fight, but i want to take you right back. i don't like the word crusade, but that's your word. fair enough. crusade has a lot of historical baggage. i get you. it's a journey. how did a kid from the bronx, who didn't really have role models to look to in science back in the day, how did he get to be running the main planetarium in new york city, to be, perhaps, the most famous astrophysicist in the country? so a couple of things, first, i figured out early that role models are overrated as a construct. in the following way. what is a role model? it's someone who you have found who has achieved something but has a strongly overlapping historical journey to yours, maybe they grew up in the same place, they are the same gender, they are the same whatever, you match up as much as you can and they landed where you want to land and then you emulate their path. and i thought myself, "i don't want to be anybody else. iam me " but the very fact that there were not people who look like you... crosstalk hold on, hold on. i'm only halfway through my answer. 0k? and when i'm done you will know that what you're about to ask is not even connected to where we're going here. so, watch. i found scientists who were brilliant and knew all kinds... they were mostly at resources in the city, at the american museum of natural history, which has the hayden planetarium as part of it, that is educators and scientists. i found scientists and thought, wow, if i am ever a scientist that is the command of science that i want. then i saw an educator and i said he has such a beautiful turn of phrase and what a compelling storyteller, if i'm ever an educator, that's the kind of educator i wanted to be. my father worked for the city government under mayor lindsay during the civil rights era and i said if i ever have to think about the plight of the disadvantaged in this world, i want to do it the way my father has, because he does it with compassion, even for the people who are screaming at those who are just trying to integrate to school. he never had a bitter bone in his body. he saw them as sort of victims of their own upbringing, of their own immersion. so what i did, i cobbled together bits and pieces of people who had abilities and talents that i respected. i stapled them together and i said, "that's who i want to be." and in there, yes, there are people with darker coloured skin who had achieved, but they didn't have to achieve astrophysics for me to know or to ask how they navigated the hurdles that they confronted. why limit yourself to role models? right. all humans are out there and are available to us to emulate, whether or not you even get to know them in person. so there was that determination which led you to believe you could push frontiers from a very early age. and i'm now getting to a metaphorical notion of the frontiers you continue to push. yeah, i wouldn't say that it's not that i believed i could do it, it's just ijust wanted to do it. i was deeply curious, from childhood, as we all are, but somehow it gets... it evaporates, maybe by middle school, certainly in teen years, something happens where it's no longer cherished to be curious in this world. if you manage to hold onto that into adulthood you're a scientist. so here's the challenge you face today, how do you make people continuously curious about something that is the scale and scope of the universe, which, thanks to our technologies, we are learning more about every single day? how do you make them consistently curious when one could argue quite easily that the scale of all of this, that the billion upon billions of galaxies that we can now look at, far beyond our own, it's almost overwhelming, almost dehumanising. and yourjob is to somehow bring it back to us, with meaning, as human beings. how do you do it? i don't think i'm making people be curious. i am fanning embers that still glow from childhood. hoping to ignite them back into flames so that they can remember how fun it was to be curious about the unknown. i'm asserting that it's not completely gone, that it can be resurrected within us all. and, yes, the universe is immense, and, yes, it can make you feel small, as it ought to, we all need an ego check every now and then. it's a cosmic perspective on us all. it's a perspective that says, however important you think you are and however significant you think your differences are with another human being who's living on the same planet, just take a look at earth from space. it'll re—benchmark all that you thought mattered in your tribalistic ways. there is a new generation of space telescope about to be deployed, which is going to take what hubble did and then exponentially increase the capacity to see to the corners we haven't yet seen of the universe. what really are you expecting it to tell us? fundamental things like truly whether there is scope for life out there? so this telescope is specially tuned to observe the birth of galaxies at the origin of the universe. this remains a sort of a gap in our telescope access. the telescopes we have today, the way they're configured, they're not tuned for that. this one is exquisitely designed for that. so we know in advance where we want it to take us. but in addition, to be tuned for the edge of the universe also means it's tuned for peering deep within gas clouds of our own milky way galaxy and it's within the gas clouds that you have the formation of next—generation star systems, planets, and possibly conditions for life as we know it. or, even better yet, life as we don't know it, to find. but we sort of know one of the fundamentals, i mean, the national academy of sciences' recent report on what's coming up next over the next decade in space exploration... by the way, we do that each decade, it's one of the things we are proudest of. it's called a decadal survey. i know. we get together and say let's prioritise ten years' of money. i know. and here's what they lay out for this one. they say, "the coming decades are going to set humanity down a path to determine whether we are alone." yes, we're going to get an answer in the sense that, i don't know if we're alone, but in every way we can imagine we're not alone we are going to perform experiments to test it. and that's what's going to unfold over the next years. and it seems to be... on mars and on the icy moons ofjupiter, where beneath, it's kept warm from stress from jupiter's gravity and the tugging of other moons, deep beneath the frozen surface there's oceans of liquid water. and every place on earth we have liquid water, we have life. so one of nasa's mantras, and the european space agency, among others in this group, is follow the water. maybe if we look for where the water is or once was, we'll have evidence of life that is or once was. and that's all being lined up in the coming decade. yes. why is it that if we bring this down to the prosaic human level that the united states government, which was so committed, if we think back to the �*60s and �*70s, in pushing for space exploration, as a national priority, spending more than li% of national income on the space programme, why is it that today that figure's down to 0.5% and the us government, frankly, apart from the notion of building a space force for military protection purposes, doesn't really seem that committed to space? yes. it is a lowered national priority and part of it is because we all bought into a narrative that was delusional. all of us. especially americans. in 1960 we told ourselves we are americans, explorers, we are discovers, it is in human dna — especially in american dna — we're going to the moon. all right, i can tell you based on my read of history that is insufficient driver to spend the hundred billion dollars in modern money that that required. insufficient driver. you need a better driver than that — than just because you want to do it or because you're feeling that that is the right thing. oh, remember what it is, we're at war! oh, my gosh! we had a cold war with the soviet union. kennedy's speech where he said, "let's put a man on the moon and return him safely," that is what we quote, that's the quote that's in the front entrance of the kennedy space center in florida. how about the rest of the speech, from which this quote was... "oh, that's not on the granite." plenty of room to chisel on the granite, no. what else was in that speech? this is almost verbatim, "if the events of recent weeks," he couldn't even utter the man's name, yuri gagarin, "if the events of recent weeks are any indication of the impact of this adventure on the minds of men everywhere, then we need to show the world the path of freedom over the path of tyranny." it was the battle cry against communism. that's why we went to the moon. so... so a military driver is, without question, the greatest of them all. the "i don't want to die" driver. and that's not what's going on right now. so the question right now is whether, actually, a huge amount of resource is being wasted. nasa is committed to getting back to the moon — they've had to put it back a year because they're short of money, but they're now saying they'll put a man back on the moon by 2025. they have a longer—term plan to put human beings on mars. but is any of this really very useful? maybe we are misspending our money. maybe the people likejeff bezos and elon musk and others who've become obsessed with space — they're wasting their money too? we have so many problems to fix on this planet of ours, this fragile planet. isn't there a case for saying — as prince william did the other day — it is absurd to spend all this money on that kind of space exploration? for many people who utter this, they see this great expense of rockets and telescopes and moonships. and then they say, "we can do that, but we can't solve. i say, "how much money do you think we're actually spending out there?" and they will come up with a number that's typically ten times what we're actually spending. and i said, "ok." you know why they think that? because when nasa does anything, it's way more visible than when anybody else spends money in the federal government. i will tell you one of the great forces operating on whether a kid wants to go into science is — "are there places they can dream?" and i say, "yeah, we're going to the moon. do you want to be the first kid on mars?" "yes! yes." and they dream. "i want to be an engineer. i want to be a mathematician." all of a sudden, you have something that stokes the educational pipeline with ambitions of students that dream about wanting to do something scientific and technological in this world. and those are the advances that bring about the changes that feed people, that create health, and wealth, and security. now we can talk about the billionaires. the billionaires are opening a new tourism industry. i don't have a problem with that. this is what the dawn of aviation was — only rich people and famous people flew in aeroplanes in the 1920s and �*30s. then it became a whole industry. now, millions of people fly every day. if you were around back then, are you saying, "stop wasting your money on this stunt"? "this biplane thing — this is a stunt"? so, dare i say — though you are the host of this programme — that i'm glad people with attitudes such as that do not win the day among those who are trying to advance what civilisation can be, and all the ways that technology can empower it. as the host of this programme... laughs ..i actually want to bring you back down to earth. and i want to ask you a question which i suspect you're not going to find easy to answer. but you — having become one of america's most famous popularisers, sort of messengers for science, you, in recent years, ran into some significant personal trouble. you faced allegations from women you had worked with, from academic colleagues, of abusive behaviour. now, they never reached a courtroom. nothing was ever put before a jury or a court. so then why are you mentioning it? only because i would like you to reflect on what that taught you not just about the world you study, or the universe you study, but about deeper personal things. did you learn from the experience you went through? so you're basically referring to the #metoo movement and all that it encompassed. i can tell you that we knew enough about the workplace environment that #metoo could have happened 30, 40, 50 years ago, especially when women started entering the workplace in large numbers. so that was a long—overdue movement, and any elderly woman who was active in the workplace decades ago will have no end of stories. so these stories are not new. so i'm very glad it finally hit a head. and it looks like it needed social media for that to happen. and did you... hold on. you asked me, and i'm answering it. so that was, i think, long overdue. so i think any time there's a movement, you have to ask — "well, what are the forces operating on that movement, and how are they going to manifest?" and i'm happy we live in a world, by and large, where... ..an active accusation is not, itself, a verdict of guilt. 0k? if it is, that's a different country, that's a different legal system. that's a different... if that's sufficient, then you just indict people by up or down vote based on how things are reported in the press and what people think is true or what they even want to be true. but i guess i'm asking you something slightly different, which is whether you reflected on whether you needed to change some of your behaviours. that very question presupposes guilt. not at all. of course it does. i would say that i was glad for investigations. i'm glad for that — as any such situation should be subjected to. that's what — that's called civilisation. mm. otherwise, what kind of world are we building for ourselves if guilt is just established by what people want or feel should be what's going on in the world? so that's — that's how that... i was delighted that everything got investigated. very happy for that. a final thought which builds on what you just said — we have to think about what kind of world we're building. i wonder — as you reflect on your long career and you look at where we, as a species, are today and our relationship with our own planet and its sustainable future — whether, actually, our biggest problems aren't sort of making sense of and understanding the universe beyond, but our biggest problem is understanding ourselves properly, understanding what motivates us and why we find it so very difficult to collaborate, to do things which can sustain our life on this planet, never mind what lies beyond? i think we're not always wise about how best to use our own discoveries in the interest of our own survival. that wisdom, i think, lags. you know, we invented social media. that's really cool. and then we find out that entire factions get together, feed misinformation, and it shifts politics of the world. that can't be good. so i don't think we saw that coming, right? in a way, that absolutely gets to the nub of this conversation. we are getting ever more knowledgeable, but are we getting wiser? i think the wisdom — well, so... i don't know. but i do know that we need a tandem — we need someone right next to every — kind of walking alongside as the next device, the next bit of technology, especially when the technology wields power — oh, my gosh. there's always someone walking among us who has nefarious objectives, and will use some of our greatest technology for the unravelling of civilisation. that's always been the case. i don't think that's a new thing. so, that's a problem. and the wisdom is — are we wise enough to control the power that we create for ourselves? and i don't think we are. not yet. that is a moment we have to end — with something very much hanging in the air. laughs neil degrasse tyson, thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk. hello. across almost all of the uk now it at last feels like january, although with some strong winds and heavy snow showers, as you can just about see from the view in aberdeen airport, it is coming with a few problems. especially north of scotland, severe gales are going to continue through the rest of today, snow showers packing their way in, another five centimetres or more of snow in some areas. that cold air feeding south with further snow flurries in northern ireland, parts of wales and the south—west, any rain in the south and east gradually clearing away, but as we go into the evening, what a difference to what some of you went to work in. these are the temperatures at six o'clock. you have got to factor in the wind. 8—9c this morning for the morning commute in the south—east corner, but for the journey home it is going to feel like —i but feeling even colder than that with the strongest of the winds in northern parts of scotland. the snow showers continue to pack in. the wind will abate a little bit as we go through into tonight, some further snow flurries out to the west of the country. a risk of ice in places, as temperatures widely fall to freezing or below to take us into tomorrow morning. the strength of the wind stops it from falling too much lower than that but the wind won't be as strong tomorrow. we will still have a couple of snow flurries in the north of scotland, one or two sleet and snow flurries in northern ireland, wales, towards the south—west, and a greater chance of a few rain showers along the east coast of england but for the vast majority of tomorrow, it is going to be dry, sunny and cold. not as windy, though, so not with the same wind—chill. with lighter winds and clear skies to take us into wednesday night, thursday morning is going to be much colder. it could be as low as between —6 and —9 in a few areas, under this ridge of high pressure, but that will eventually give way on thursday with the weather front pushing in to the cold air, primarily turning to snow over the higher ground, even low levels in scotland. the high ground of wales, northern ireland, as well, getting a covering of snow in places. turning to rain as the weather front pushes its way eastward through the day, never quite reaching parts of east anglia and the south east until late in the day. some sunny spells and heavy showers developing in the west later on and even though temperatures lift temporarily, by the end of the afternoon it feels rather cooler, especially in eastern areas. a colder night to take us into friday. friday back to sunshine and showers, the showers wintry in the north and west, some heavy with hail and thunder, but for many southern and eastern areas it will stay dry. cold, before some milder air returns on saturday. goodbye for now. this is bbc news broadcasting to viewers in the uk and around the world. i'm ben brown, our top stories. lawyers for prince andrew ask a us court to dismiss a civil sexual assault case brought by virginia giuffre. britain's health secretary says there's nothing in the data to call for tougher covid restrictions in england, but it's still too early to know how hospitals will cope. sadly, we are seeing hospitalisations arise across the country, particularly in older age groups, but thankfully, there was in intensive care, those numbers are broadly flat. —— those in intensive care. meanwhile, pupils across the uk head back to school this week amid concerns about staff shortages due to the virus. tennis world number one novak djokovic says he's heading

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