Transcripts For BBCNEWS Dateline London 20240709

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now on bbc news, it's time for dateline. hello, and welcome to the programme which brings together columnists on uk newspapers, bbc specialists and internationaljournalists who write, blog and broadcast from dateline london. this week, party blues for british conservatives — how much trouble is borisjohnson now in? and joe biden says defending democracy is "the defining challenge of our time", but does vladimir putin believe him? to discuss those topics, we're joined by michael goldfarb, who's been a foreign correspondent for national public radio in the united states. his blog is called the first rough draft of history. the much travelled ian birrell, who writes for the mail on sunday. and damian grammaticas, who's been based in the past in beijing, brussels and delhi, and is now a political correspondent at westminster, is here in the studio. welcome to all of you. it is lovely to have you with us here. this is a very interesting weekend in terms of domestic politics. let's begin there. we still don't know whether a party took place in downing street last christmas, nor whether strict covid rules which affected the whole of the country at the time were broken. yet, thanks to a video leaked on wednesday, apparently by someone inside the british government, an allegation knocking around for more than a week has become weaponised. borisjohnson insists he wasn't in number ten at the time. if he fumbles this one, he may not be in there for very much longer. damian, how did an allegation about a party become a threat to borisjohnson�*s longevity as prime minister? well, i should actually say first of all, we have been told by quite a few sources that absolutely, there was a party. there's a lot of wriggling around the issue, but there was. this is last christmas in the run up, and the reason it's such a big issue is at the time, the government told everyone in the uk you could not meet indoors for an event like that, and many, many people at the time went to great lengths to follow the rules. they didn't visit elderly or dying relatives. yet what came out first of all was the news that there had been this party, and then also the video. that's what really sort of put a rocket booster under this. and this video was not for broadcast, it was almost like a practice run of a question and answer session with the then prime ministerial spokesperson. this was last year, a rehearsal for a press conference. the hand—picked top advisers of the prime minister saying to her," how would you defend that?" to her, "how would you defend that?" and they were pretending... crosstalk and she stutters and stumbles and says, "how would i defend this?" there is laughter and suggestions we could say it was a business meeting. it was wine and cheese. more laughter, and it's deeply uncomfortable for government and has caused huge anger. borisjohnson already said there was no party. he's now announced an investigation, and this story will keep going. ian, everyone who knows borisjohnson suggests his strength is communication, particularly ideas and policies. not necessarily in understanding detail. has that become a liability for him in a way it hasn't appeared to be in the past? i think it's less about detail and more about character and the type of person he is. the tory party has been prepared to overlook his personal flaws. he was sacked as a newspaper writer for telling untruths. he was sacked as a shadow minister for telling untruths about an extramarital affair. i think we are seeing a character flaw. there comes a point when they go into a tailspin and the strengths become weaknesses. the big question is whether that what's we're seeing, whether these incidents, with the wallpaper—gate that's been known, doing up his flat. the questions were that these are not going to turn all the things which the tory party bought into. if he becomes election loser and the very things which made him strong as a candidate in connecting with people — his character, hisjovial nature, jokes etc — becomes switched. that's a danger for the tory party. there's a big by—election coming up. if they were to lose that, then i think the letters would be flying in demanding a new leadership contest, because the tory party is ruthless injettisoning leaders when they think they won't win elections. quite a few tory leaders have bitten the dust in 30 years, starting with margaret thatcher. in detail, in truth, let's not find another word for it, the bit about the party, about the assurances from staff, there's an extra complication because there's a story about what the prime minister said he knew to somebody rather important and independent looking into the redecoration of the flat he lives in above the office. yes, so this has also blown up and this potentially poses a significant problem. he was investigated... he has an adviser on standards to look into this whole matter earlier in the year. he used to work for the queen. brought in by borisjohnson, had to look into this because there were questions swirling around, how was the refurbishment paid for? we know now that it cost over £100,000. and what borisjohnson said at the time was he didn't know how he'd paid for it. it had come through a trust. now what came out this week were messages suggesting that borisjohnson�*s messages suggested he may have known where this money was coming from. he perhaps doesn't know the exact source. but if he misled that advice, that's the question. that would be a very serious offence. michael, the day after the video emerged, and following a rather torrid session of prime minister questions, plan b covid restrictions were announced for england. a tory mp accused borisjohnson to his face as using this as a diversion, but it's not particularly helpful because a lot of conservatives aren't very happy anyway. well, this is where realityj trumps the farcical nature of this particular government. we can all have a chucklel as boris unravels precisely the way anyone who pays this amount of attentionl to politics, notjust_ westminster, knew was likely. he's a remarkably successful| person in politics, and i don't think he actually hides who he is. j he comes on as a buffoon. he knows his word is not worth anything, yet he still managesl to rise and rise and rise. but the pandemic is real and it's a tragedy. - the state of the tory party is real. - before party—gate bubbled up, you would still have had - the same backbenchers. who were a perfect match for the brexiteers, _ who would say with the arrival of omicron and its really rapid increase, we can't have - lockdown, we can't have a plan b. - we've been through this, it'sjust with us, we have| to live with it. much of the country has three vaccinations now, | what more can you do? i think that whoever sent that, boris somehow... magicking a change of- discussion with plan b things with covid is disingenuous, he'd have been against it. i i think that's the case. what i think is interesting, - ian and damian spent a lot more time in westminster than i did. how is it possible thatl at a certain point, even the tory party, lovers of - political power that they are, didn't say this - is a bargain too far? it's like buying a cheap fur coat at the market. you know it's not reallyj going to be up to snuff. how has it been they've stayed with boris this long? _ i think it says much more| about the governing party than even the man himself. i think it also says - a lot about their voters. in 2019, 80—seat majority, maybe ian can explain it, i people voted for him knowing full well what his flaws - were and whether they would suit the office of prime - minister. yet they voted for him. it wasn't a fur coat, but they liked it just the same. i suppose after dominic cummings and his trip to barnard castle, matt hancock and his embrace with an aide when people were supposed to socially distance, is it looking... do you think the public will wrap themselves in the borisjohnson comfort once again? well, the polls would indicate that the moths are eating very fast at the moment, to stretch the analogy well past where it should have gone. sorry, that's my fault! that's fine. the polls are showing it's been a very fast downturn. the tory party has suddenly slid between six and nine points behind labour. this also comes at a time when the labour party under sir keir starmer hasjust reshuffled and put a much more impressive group of individuals in the top jobs who, for the first time really since jeremy corbyn took over the party, look as though they could be an alternative group of individuals in government. also, sir keir starmer is the exact opposite of borisjohnson — he's not a jolly guy cracking jokes the whole time. he's a serious guy, but he has the lawyer's background, a former head of criminal prosecutions, and it's played quite well for him to be able to forensically take apart some of these things. so, i think that's why it's dangerous that if suddenly people are seeing the reality of borisjohnson, the tory party is panicking because they've made a faustian pact to get through brexit and win an election with someone that most of them knew was not suited to the top job, then along came the pandemic, exposing how he was not suited for the topjob. now, i think... i've spoken to tory mps who are extraordinarily concerned and some believe and hope that borisjohnson will be replaced pretty shortly after christmas. thank you all very much. let's move on. on friday, germany's chancellor 0laf scholz travelled to paris and brussels, in part to discuss the seven—year—long stand—off with moscow over ukraine. presidentjoe biden spoke to the leaders in germany, france, italy and the uk this week, before his two—hour long conference call with vladimir putin. the russian president insisted the thousands of troops he's stationed close to the border are "no threat". the united states and its allies see things differently. a casualty could be nord stream 2, the now completed gas pipeline between germany and russia. ian, does 0laf scholz have an opportunity to reset relations with russia at this point? well, it's an interesting position. the coalition agreement that he's signed talks in stronger terms against russia. it stands up very strongly for the belarus opposition, saying there shouldn't be russian intervention of belarus. it stands up very firmly in favour of the territorial integrity of the ukraine. so, that is interesting, and the greens take a harder line than a lot of german parties or politicians on foreign affairs and things like china and russia. time will tell. merkel was really interesting in the way she reproached russia. she took overjust after the iraq debacle, when germany had sided with france and russia opposing the iraq war. she spoke russian. she came from an east german sort of soviet allied background, and was sceptical about the country and i think she's ploughed a very interesting furrow in that she has moved back into the atlantic alliance at the same time she opposed the extension of nato to the ukraine. she flew to — if you remember, to try and settle these situations in donbass in 2015, took a lead on that — but equally, she was presented with nord stream. it's interesting that she was presented it by her predecessor who came from the new chancellor's party and is now the guy behind — took putin's money to push them project and push the whole system that russia is using to extend control over europe. time will tell where we go on this, but so much depends on what's really going to happen in ukraine. will lukashenko and belarus still use migrants as a weapon to unsettle neighbours? because a lot of those people want to come into germany, and i was in germany in the last few weeks to look at nord stream and to talk — to look at these — i've been to belarus and poland and lithuania, and it's very powerful weapon, this migration issue, that is being exploited. so i think we got to wait and see how events go to really see where the new german chancellor stands on these things. in terms of these issues and it's certainly going to test him more than anything. michael, why is the us opposed to nord stream 2 in particular? and opposed but not prepared to impose sanctions on it? well, i think that bidenl is taking a step—by—step approach here, and i think what's interesting is this l whole story began to bubble up about a week ago when, - in the classic way — i unattributed briefing to the washington post said russia has this - massive build—up going on with the border with ukraine. - and we've had a very rapid l couple of days of diplomacy, and i think that that was kind of forcing the issue _ into the public domain. and i think that's sort of whatjoe biden is — what his approach is, frankly. you know, to understand biden's approach to this kind _ of foreign policy - issue, potential crisis, you have to remember he's basically a senator — - a senior senator — and he'sj always looking for the topic you can talk about, i rather than the crisis you need to confront. so, i think that he's looking i to see where the areas we can talk about are. it's interesting you say that because on friday, he was talking about gasoline prices in the united states, which is a good solid domestic policy issue. i mean, they worry about fuel everywhere, of course. and in europe, the germans are worried about gas supplies — not gasoline but gas supplies — and that's why they supported nord stream. but the republicans seem pretty determined that something should be done about that because they clearly see it as an advantage for russia that might make germany and others more malleable. more — i'm sorry? more malleable, more willing to toe the line with russia rather than confront it. no, i think that's wrong. i mean, ithink — look, - the republican party doesn't have that much — isn't that geopolitically sophisticated. - i mean, i think that they — . if they, indeed, felt that way, i think they were much more frustrated — - in fact, i know they were much more frustrated i by angela merkel's i approach to russia — which by the way, is not that different thanjoe biden's. . michael and putin are of an age — —— merkeland putin are of an age. - they are of an age — - they grew up in soviet times, and merkel also felt - if you talk, if you're talking rather than provoking crises, that's a better thing - than trying to engage in brinkmanship. - just one less thing — 30 years ago this week was the conference in. which the soviet union . officially wound itself up. the treaty was signed on december 25. - ukraine, belarus and russia agreed there was no more l soviet union, there would bel something new called the cis. and it wouldn't surprise me if some of this pressure - being brought by vladimir putin | is, in fact, because he's awarel it's the 30th anniversary. ah! i think this means . something to putin. i don't think anyone _ in the west even remembers it. lukashenko is still in his home court. j ukraine no longer is. and i think he's going - to make it uncomfortable. it isa it is a question of can you defuse _ it is a question of can you defuse it? _ the federation of independent states, 30th anniversary coming up. paris, notjust the eu quarter, but the headquarters of nato. do either of those organisations have a clear position on russia? well, i think nato do — yes, clearly — and we've been hearing from them today, saying — a nato spokesperson saying that when it comes to ukraine, there will be, he said, on ukraine, we're not negotiating on the right for countries to choose their own path. that's ukraine, whether it would one day become a nato member, but that's really not actually likely for a very long time — and partly because european and nato countries know how difficult an issue this is and how problematic it is. one of president putin's demands seems to be if president biden is guaranteeing ukraine would join nato. i think it's interesting to see that why is president putin doing this at the moment? why has he put 175,000 troops on this border? creating extreme tension? deliberately ramped things up. yes. 0ne one possibility, yes, if you take it at face value, his concerns about nato. but ambassadors who were there before say this wasn't an issue. it was not as bothered about it. he didn't think it was going to happen. the idea that russia feels threatened is actually — is not — was not borne out by their discussions. actually, the country that is threatened is ukraine by those russian forces, by russian support in eastern ukraine for the separatists there, the men and material that have floded in. the so—called green men and all the rest of it. in crimea and eastern ukraine, the areas of the donbass there. so, at this moment and why putin would do this is coming back to what ian was saying. europe is in a position where germany has a new chancellor. there is a moment of flux, europe is heading... crosstalk. a moment of weakness that president putin can perhaps try to exploit. just a last thought on this. a brief thought, we are tied for time. joe biden saying he won't send in troops to defend ukraine if it's threatened. and of course nato won't defend it because it is not a member of nato. we know putin seems to have got a summit when he did this earlier in the year, he's got a promise from biden to have meetings with nato leaders. i mean, has putin given anything? he seems to have rather been driving this process. no, nothing at all. putin has got away with annexing sovereign ukrainian territory in crimea, he's gotten away with effectively annexing two regions of eastern ukraine. the worry is — i mean, we know with putin, one thing, which is he is very good at exploiting other people's weakness. he isa he is a very good tactician. at the moment, there's a president who's not going to do anything militarily and there's weakness in the three major powers in europe. germany with the new government, britain with a government in meltdown and france with an election coming up. so that is an opportunity, but what we don't know with putin is, really, his own state of mind. he's been in power now for 21 years. he has eliminated all opposition and is surrounded by yes men and the question, i guess, it is really, after the orthodox new year, is he really going to do something and invade? because he knows there won't be a military response from the west. fascinating questions. with sanctions after crimea, but they didn't last long. really interesting discussion. we will watch this space. chance now for you to remark on something that you don't think has had enough attention. we are tied for time but michael first. early this week, when the party—gate thing i reared its ugly _ head again, one of the lead stories of the morning was a whistle—blowerl in the foreign office had - published a report saying that in afghanistan, during the chaos of august, i as the last flights _ were leaving kabul to safety as the taliban took over, | that somehow, animals — rescue dogs — were given priority on flights out. . to afghan staff who worked at the british embassy. - and i thought — when i read it, myjaw dropped. - it'sjust beyond belief. i mean, i'm all for— escuedogsnd a saving animals, but in that situation, you prioritise humans - who risked their lives working for your embassy. you don't even think about the dogs! - and it somehow disappeared. the westminster- story had more legs. i do hope someone can revisit that and nail it down - because it's an absolutely disgraceful thing. - downing street all the foreign office — downing street all the foreign office knew _ downing street all the foreign office knew about _ downing street all the foreign office knew about it, - downing street all the foreign office knew about it, that's. office knew about it, that's really. _ office knew about it, that's really. really _ office knew about it, that's really, really disgraceful. l really, really disgraceful. thank _ really, really disgraceful. thank you _ really, really disgraceful. thank you very _ really, really disgraceful. thank you very much. - ian birrell. i would say it's the second anniversary of the pandemic on wednesday, december 8th. it was — if you believe china and the official world health organization narrative — that was the date the first person, a 41—year—old accountant mr chen in wuhan fell ill. in fact, what it shows the duplicity of china. and the complicity of the world health — and the complicity of the world health organization and the scientific establishment. thank you. we know that's a flawed narrative and cases documented going back to middle of november, so it raises the question as to why china has been allowed to get off the hook for lying and deceiving people over the origins of the pandemic. ian, thank you very much. damian, finally. i'd like to go to china, too, and the situation in xinjiang. the really severe repression of uighur people, culture, the internment camps with one million people there. i think what's significant this week in london, chaired by senior judge tribunal like — not a formal court, but like one — found this amounted to under any legaljustification, genocide. thank you all very much. that's dateline for this week. we'll see you next time next week. goodbye. hello there. it was noticeably mild today right across the country, but particularly so for england and wales. now, we look to the north—west through this evening and overnight. this deep area of low pressure — small system but very vigorous, passing to the north—west of the uk — will bring a spell of gales to northern ireland and in towards scotland as well. stormy conditions for the hebrides and the northern isles, perhaps severe gales for a time, some blustery showers. it will turn a bit drier here by the end of the night but for england and wales, it'll stay cloudy with outbreaks of rain, certainly through wales and into the midlands. mild in the south — double figure values here. a little bit cooler further north. and that's how things look into monday. we hold on to the cloud for large parts of england and wales. we'll continue with this persistent rain as well for parts of wales, the midlands, into northern england. some areas pretty wet all day. brightest weather will be across scotland and northern ireland. a few blustery showers, wintry on the hills, it will be milder, though, across the south. single figures across the north. that weather front for england and wales clears away into tuesday. high pressure begins to build in here. it stays unsettled over the northern half of the country — lots of isobars and weather fronts. so windy for scotland and northern ireland and some rain, particularly for the north and the west of scotland. england and wales, though, closer to that area of high pressure, should be largely dry. some cloud around but also some good spells of sunshine. those temperatures will be around orjust a little above the seasonal norm. so as we head out of tuesday into wednesday, we continue with that area of high pressure across the south of the country so here, settled with light winds. still quite windy across the northern half of the country with further outbreaks of rain, thanks to that weather front. so, some wet weather northern ireland, certainly for northern and western scotland, maybe a little bit of brightness at times. it stays windy here. lighter winds in the south. again, variable cloud, some good spells of sunshine. those temperatures perhaps a little bit higher again — double figure values for most — and i've also got to emphasise nights will be much milder as well — frost—free for most of us. then beyond wednesday, we see this area of high pressure we think start to really take its force across the uk and that'll push the weather fronts away from the north and it'll be sitting on top of the by friday and into the following weekend, so it means winds will turn very light. so, there's a chance it turns really grey and gloomy by the end of the week. turning a bit colder as well as we head on into the new weekend and we will see some problems with mist and fog. this is bbc news. welcome if you're watching here in the uk or around the globe. our top stories: more than 90 dead and many more missing. the search goes on for survivors of the tornadoes which tore through six us states. we're not going to tell moy mother. ~ , ., we're not going to tell moy mother._ because we're not going to tell moy - mother._ because it'll mother. why not? because it'll break her _ mother. why not? because it'll break her heart. _ borisjohnson calls for an acceleration of the covid booster programme after warning the uk about a "tidal wave" of omicron infections. g7 foreign ministers condemn russia's build—up of troops on the ukrainian border — and threaten "massive consequences". on the last lap of the last grand prix of the season, the dutchman max verstappen clinches his first formula 1 world championship, as he pips lewis hamilton.

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