now on bbc news, it's hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. when it comes to the global response to the climate change challenge, it pays to differentiate between words and deeds. at last month's cop26 summit, the chorus of concern from world leaders was deafening. but the actions — well, tough decisions on deeper emissions cuts to stave off catastrophic warming were put off until next year. my guest is the us special envoy for climate, former secretary of state john kerry. his mission remains to restore american leadership on the biggest existential challenge facing our planet. is that mission impossible? john kerry, welcome to hardtalk. happy to be with you. thank you. you have had some weeks to reflect on what was achieved at cop26 in glasgow. is your overwhelming feeling one of disappointment, so much work still to do? no. and, infact, i disagree with your initial assessment in the introduction. a huge amount was accomplished in glasgow and it was not put off. in fact, 65% of global economic enterprise, global gdp, is committed now — publicly — with real plans that have beenjudged to be real to hold the earth's temperature increase to 1.5 degrees centigrade. and the fact is that major steps forward were taken in glasgow, to wit the rule book that had been outstanding since paris was completed so that market rules, transparency, are now accountable. next year, there is a requirement that those who are not aligned with 1.5 degrees need to step up and produce new reduction plans, which have to be filed with the process. so, there's an accountability process. there is, in addition to that, a very significant set of commitments on deforestation, which has not been talked about enough. there is major doubling of funding for adaptation, which is needed in less developed, emerging economies of the world. i mean, i can go on. there's a major methane pledge. i understand, and everything you'vejust said is important and you talk about steps. and obviously that's an incremental approach. but the line coming from many people who watch this very closely right now is that it's too late for step—by—step, for increments, because... it's not...i don't think it's step—by—step anymore. as i said, you have, you have canada, japan, south korea, the united states, eu, uk, south africa all stepping up and saying, "we're on the 1.5 track." but we are not on the 1.5 track. that is the point. you talk about accountability. isn't the fundamental quality we need honesty? and we are not on the 1.5 degree warming track. we, as a planet, are not on that track. that is absolutely accurate. 65% of the global economic work of the world is on that track or can be on that track if they do the things they've said they will do. but everybody agreed that the next ten years, steve, are the critical decade. it's the critical moment for action. so, our hope is that by requiring countries to come in next year, those who weren't prepared to do it this year come in with an aggressive program and they will be measured by that. we now have new accountability in the world because we have satellite systems around the planet that give us instantaneous viewing of co2 emissions and methane emissions. we had 109 countries, steve, step up and make a pledge that they will reduce global methane emissions by 30% over the next ten years, and that would... do you believe all these promises? i believe it can be... no, i don't. because so much of what is promised is based then on self—assessment. why should we believe, for example, the brazilian government, which has signed up to what you referred to as the major initiative on stopping deforestation and actually beginning reforestation... the brazilians sign up to it, and yet they are led by a leader, bolsonaro, who refused to come to glasgow and who, over years, can bejudged on his record of supporting big business, continuing the deforestation. totally. there is a record that has raised very serious doubts and questions. but, you know, myjob is not to go back and judge what happened in the last few years, except that it informs me and it informs us. exactly. but we have a new approach with a great deal of international support. many countries that are involved with brazil, all of whom are prepared to help work out a new protocol by which we will have money put on the table in order to prevent deforestation. the measure will be in the next weeks and months. i'm not going to sit here... i'm not going to sit here and pretend this is done. it's not done. is there a lot of work left to be done? monumental. but we have laid the framework and the groundwork where it can be done. that's the measure of glasgow. what if people... until then, it wasn't being done. couldn't be done. now, it's a possibility. mr secretary, what happens if people no longer believe you? does that matter? if course it matters. if greta thunberg, for example, says that glasgow was a failure, it was nothing more than business as usual, "blah, blah, blah," covering itself up with new language... or what if...one of the most important young activists, vanessa nakate from uganda, what if she says, "we are drowning in promises, "we can no longer believe in these promises"? does that matter? of course it matters, and i completely and totally sympathise and understand and even share some of the frustration. not some. i have a lot of anger and frustration. i've been involved in this since 1988, whenjim hansen testified to us in congress. i was in rio when the first efforts were made to create the framework, which we're now operating with, and i've been to many cops in between, my friend. and i'm telling you it is frustration that brought me back to undertake this effort on behalf of president biden and the administration. and the president, president biden, has been completely and totally serious about doing this. but with all due respect to those who say it was a failure, before it even started, before we'd even had the meetings, the meetings that took place in glasgow have produced a framework which has the ability of people do what they were going to say they'd do, to get thejob done. and the only tool of the trade that we have is the ability to sit face—to—face and work through an agreement. why did glasgow take place? it took place because in paris, six years earlier, people agreed and reached a framework, and that framework played out in a way that raised ambition in glasgow. and now we have to implement what we did in glasgow. so everything that we did there... yeah. ..everything we did, steve, is now going to be measured... it is. ..by, day—by—day, what we do, and we welcome that. i welcome that. your work as president biden�*s special envoy, the guy who has to prove and show that america can lead on this, yourjob now is to go around the world talking to governments, trying to persuade them to make good on promises made. let's talk about china, because many people say, given china now emits pretty much 30, more than 30% of the world's... it's about, yeah, about 29%, and rising. rising. and it's going to be 30% and more over the coming years. china matters more than any other country. you went there in the summer, had face—to—face talks with the key chinese leaders on this. and yet, when they got to glasgow, they ensured that the language on coal, for example, was watered down from "phase out" to "phase down." you are not persuading china to take the urgent, urgent actions necessary. well, again, with all due respect, my friend, we reached an agreement between the united states and china, which we made public in the days before the end of cop, in which china did three things that they haven't done ever before. they agreed to create a working group with the united states, with experts from china, from the united states, elsewhere, who will be part of this group, who will help formulate the policy to achieve the reductions that china needs to achieve. and china will be obviously held accountable to that process. numbertwo, china agreed, next year, to produce a new plan, "an ambitious national action plan to reduce methane and deal "with methane in china." number three, for the first time, china did not stick with its... ..with its peaking in its coal emissions by 2030. they said they will begin to phase down the consumption of coal by 2026 and, in very hard—fought—over words, they agreed that they will accelerate the effort and try and do it sooner than that. so, by working with the united states and others... well, it's interesting. you focus on the word. but you have to begin somewhere. no, of course you do. none of this is easy. i do get that. but diplomacy works in complex ways. sure. now, here's something that the chinese foreign minister said, actually, i believe, in reference to you and your work. he said, "the us side hopes that climate cooperation "can be an oasis in china—us relations." "but if that oasis," he said, "is surrounded by desert, "then it too will become desertified sooner or later." the clear message of that is you can't separate this from the wider us—china relationship. we have to. you can't. the us has just said that it's going to perform a diplomatic boycott of the winter games in china. these things matter to you. how unhelpful is that? but steve, the point is, dealing with the climate crisis is not a favour that china will do for the united states orfor the world. dealing with the climate crisis is something china needs to do for its own citizens. and no country wins this struggle by itself. so, unless every nation is part of this solution, there is no solution. so, china has to step up and i think china recognises that. is china ready to listen to lectures from the united states in the current political climate? we're not lecturing. what we're doing is something the united states has always done, which is stand up for human rights. but it's not a lecture. it's a statement of reality and fact. diplomatic point is a symbolic symbol, which to many in china, will lookjust like a lecture. well, it's not a lecture. when human lives are being lost and when there are human rights challenges in the world, you're about to go to oslo to celebrate people who won the nobel peace prize for standing up against oppression for speaking out and for telling the truth, for having the ability to have the freedom to be able to do that. so, how does that come about? it comes about because nations fight for that freedom. and you can go back in the history of the last century and see the fights we had against fascism, a total war on the planet. and the united states believes that it's important to continue to fight for human rights. that said... wait a minute, one sec. it is a human right also to live with clean air and to live with a planet that is sustainable. and that human right is one that people are fighting for desperately all around the world now. there are 20 countries that are responsible for 80% of all the omissions. china and the united states and the eu and britain... and russia is other important ones. ..are all important, and india and russia. and those nations must come together and they have been in these past months and they even did, even though the president didn't — i'm not going to make excuses. but even though the president didn't come he had a delegation there with one of the most expert negotiators in the world on the issue of climate. and he negotiated in good faith and we came to an agreement. the test now is not to go backwards, it's to see whether or not that agreement is going to be fulfilled. i understand that, and you said that is probably the toughest thing you've ever done, but isn't the truth that you are a very experienced diplomat who knows that when you're trying to achieve stuff on this particular issue, perhaps the most important facing humanity, you have to deal with other diplomatic realities. we mentioned russia just briefly. the fact is that right now biden and putin are talking about a situation in ukraine where there is a real possibility of conflict, and then a real possibility that the us is going to put the most punitive sanctions on russia. in that context, is there any way at all in this real world of ours that you talking to russia saying, "you know what, you have to wrap up your "commitments, you have to face of fossil fuel production," that is not to work. let me share with you, in the history of humankind particularly in the last century and a half there are plenty examples of nations that have huge, deep differences and objections to each other�*s actions. actually getting together and making good things happen. a great example of that is ronald reagan meeting with gorbachev in reykjavik. he thought it was the evil empire. there was no stronger opponent of what the soviet union was involved in. and yet gorbachev and ronald reagan came to an agreement where we took 50,000 nuclear warheads pointing at each other and turned that around. and now we have about 1,500 each. and we have mechanisms in place to try to guarantee they won't be used. so you can work with countries with whom you have grave differences. even while ukraine was happening under the obama administration, i was working very closely with foreign ministers and we worked to get chemical weapons out of syria. we worked on the iran nuclear agreement, the paris agreement, we worked on environmental issues like making the rough ross sea the largest marine protected area in the world. so we found a way to agree. and that's what diplomacy is about. war is the failure of diplomacy. diplomacy solves those problems under the most exigent circumstances and that's what we have to do now. let's turn the microscope inward to the united states for a moment and talk about the credibility of the us leadership for the number one, when you were serving as secretary of state under the barack obama administration, the us was actually massively expanding its fossil fuel production in terms of fracking for oil and gas right across the united states, becoming a major fossilfuel producer in a way that frankly, the us still appears intent on being despite all of the work you're doing in a very different direction. fossil fuel is still in the financial system of the united states still subsidised massively across the country. and those subsidies have to end and president biden knows those subsidies will have to end and he calls on them to end. those subsidies need to add. he doesn't have a political system to which ensure those subsidies do end. it's one biden: for he and another actually happening. you're absolutely correct. that's what politics and elections are about. you don't speak your credibility, you president biden has put forward a doubling of the money put in an unemployed 4 billion to get the hundred billion we need. at the hundred billion we need. at the hundred billion we need. at the poorer countries in the world so that the us committing 11 billion a year to mitigation adaptation and tech transfer to us as a result of climate change is not enough. even the us �*s responsibility for this is the rooster —— richest industrialised country in the world, you should be putting far more than 11 billion into this. , , ., ., this. this is the argument that i make and — this. this is the argument that i make and i — this. this is the argument that i make and i have _ this. this is the argument that i make and i have made - this. this is the argument that i i make and i have made publicly and, yes, iagree. we should maureen. it is not yourfault. it is not your fault. but you have to look at this the way the real world works. donald trump ended the funding, donald trump ended the funding, donald trump pulled out of the agreement and president obama rushed to get1 billion of the money we have committed into the system and it happened. the problem is he did not control the next digit and president biden does not control the first budget he has. it is the carryover trump logic. so the first budget that president biden has had he has quadrupled the amount of money that we were putting into this. we will do more and we should do more and the president also put forward a programme to help less—developed countries be able to prepare more effectively for the damages that appear, a programme called president's emergency plan for adaptation and resilience and we put $9 billion into that plan. over the next five years so the president is leading. he is stepping up. mr so the president is leading. he is stepping urn-— so the president is leading. he is stepping up— is stepping up. mr biden as president — is stepping up. mr biden as president for _ is stepping up. mr biden as president for four - is stepping up. mr biden as president for four years, i is stepping up. mr biden as i president for four years, that is how the system works. and what we have learnt as a result of us politics of the last eight years is that stuff can change very quickly. we spoke earlier about the importance of honesty. is it important to recognise, as a form of friend and colleague of yours nick byrne said this week, that the united states was a credibility on climate change has plummeted as a result of the donald trump years? {iii as a result of the donald trump ears? . ., , ., as a result of the donald trump ears? .., , ., , years? of course. that is self-evident. _ years? of course. that is self-evident. that - years? of course. that is self-evident. that is - years? of course. that is| self-evident. that is what self—evident. that is what president biden is now reversing. president biden is now revening-— president biden is now reversinu. g , ., reversing. my point is that president _ reversing. my point is that president biden _ reversing. my point is that president biden is - reversing. my point is that president biden is there . president biden is there because he was elected and he may well be not elected in three years time. it is the way the us system works. what the world is seeing with the trump administration and his decision to win withdraw entirely from the process is that in the united states you cannot assume that a position taken by a leader will be consistently maintained.— leader will be consistently maintained. ., , ., maintained. you simply cannot assume that. _ maintained. you simply cannot assume that. actually, - maintained. you simply cannot assume that. actually, steve, | assume that. actually, steve, on this particular issue at this moment yes you can. this may be... this moment yes you can. this may be- - -_ may be... what, you are abandoning _ may be... what, you are abandoning democracy? | may be... what, you are - abandoning democracy? this may be the most important thing. it is not evident every day but the reality is that what is happening in the united states now is happening on a global basis. it is bigger than any prime minister or any president orany prime minister or any president or any current administration. trillions of dollars an hour moving into the energy sector, into dealing with the climate crisis. literally trillions. i worked with the six largest banks in america and they have committed that over the next ten years they will invest a minimum of $11.16 trillion in climate related acceleration and activities. so while donald trump pulled out of the agreement, governors, republican democrat alike, 37 of them, continue to stay in the paris agreement and the fact is that a massive amount of what is happening on climate in the united states happens at the state level. not the national level. so, yeah, you could have a future president... could have a future president. . .- could have a future president... ., .., ., president... you couldhave have a future _ president... you couldhave have a future president - president... you couldhave - have a future president donald trump and you tell me that won't matter a jot?- trump and you tell me that won't matter a jot? won't matter a 'ot? you say it won't matter a 'ot? you say it won-t matter_ won't matter a 'ot? you say it won't matter i _ won't matter a jot? you say it won't matter i say _ won't matter a jot? you say it won't matter i say that - won't matter a jot? you say it won't matter i say that this i won't matter i say that this will continue, notwithstanding. just as it did in the last years of donald trump. an example, 75% of new electricity that came online under donald trump last year came on through renewable energy. something he opposed, laughed at but that is what happened in america, notwithstanding donald trump. and i am saying to you that this effort now is adopted by corporations around the world. psg and the boardrooms of the world. you have corporations that have said we're going to be net zero in 2050. of that energy in that group... but. energy in that group...but. but energy in that group. ..but. bu. ., ,, . energy in that group. ..but. bu! ., ,, . , but that is such wishful thinking- _ but that is such wishful thinking. you're - but that is such wishful| thinking. you're saying, but that is such wishful - thinking. you're saying, you know what, never mind the problems we have got with politicians all around the world, never mind those problems, the market will somehow shift.— problems, the market will somehow shift. with all due respect" — somehow shift. with all due respect,. technology - somehow shift. with all due respect,. technology in - somehow shift. with all due respect,. technology in the | respect,. technology in the marketplace _ respect,. technology in the marketplace will _ respect,. technology in the marketplace will ensure. it| respect,. technology in the i marketplace will ensure. it is happening — marketplace will ensure. it is happening and _ marketplace will ensure. it is happening and it _ marketplace will ensure. it 3 happening and it will happen. i spoke yesterday with bill gates who has put $500 million of his own money into an effort to come up with a next—generation nuclear capacity that is not threatening, that does not have the problems of ways, does not have the problems of proliferation and if they are successful... proliferation and if they are successful. . .— successful... that is the problem- _ successful... that is the problem. we _ successful... that is the problem. we began - successful... that is the problem. we began the| successful... that is the - problem. we began the interview by talking about the urgency of now because greenhouse gas emissions year—on—year right now are still rising when they need to be cut by 7% a year. so, steve, come back to what i said earlier. already, already we are seeing the ability to produce energy much cheaper than with fossil fuel. we have solar and wind and we have geothermal, hydro, we have all kinds of real capacity and there are countries now moving, right now, to cleaner production of their heating and power through renewable, up to 70 or 80%. irate power through renewable, up to 70 or 80%-— power through renewable, up to 70 or 80%. we have to wend and i'm auoin 70 or 80%. we have to wend and i'm going to _ 70 or 80%. we have to wend and i'm going to end _ 70 or 80%. we have to wend and i'm going to end with _ 70 or 80%. we have to wend and i'm going to end with a _ 70 or 80%. we have to wend and i'm going to end with a quote - i'm going to end with a quote from john kerry. he said just as before glasgow he said... we need to reduce our dependence on coal five need to reduce our dependence on coalfive times need to reduce our dependence on coal five times faster than today. we need to to reforestation five times faster. we need to transfer 22 times faster to electric vehicles. we are way behind. this we get ahead by banging on the table and working, by doing the table and working, by doing the diplomacy, by pushing, and by citizens all around the world going to hold the politicians accountable. this is happening. and people see what is happening. fires, floods, mudslides, droughts, extraordinary changes in climate right now. food production interruptions. 2 million people a year die because of pollution that exists everything will year now. that is happening at a rate where populations are rebelling. it is part of the anger that people feel about government in general and i believe it is only going to grow and we are going to see us move in this direction. will we get there in time? i don't know the answer to that. that is what makes these next ten years absolutely critical and we do have the opportunity, because of glasgow, we now have the opportunity to make that happen. the question is will we? ., , , ., we? john kerry, i wish we had more time _ we? john kerry, i wish we had more time but _ we? john kerry, i wish we had more time but we _ we? john kerry, i wish we had more time but we do - we? john kerry, i wish we had more time but we do not. - we? john kerry, i wish we had l more time but we do not. thank you very much for being on hardtalk. hello again. storm barra of course has been dominating our weather picture over the last couple of days with strong winds, heavy rain and some upland snow as well. but look at these big rocks. the seas have been chucking them onto the coastline of west wales. you know the seas are pretty angry when they throw brick—sized lumps of rocks at you. there is barra, it continues to feel it's getting less intense. we do have a window of slightly clearer weather that's set to come in during thursday. that means we'll see these showers that we got at the moment fading away over the next few hours. but it's going to be quite chilly for those heading out across northern england and scotland, temperatures as low as —2, —3 degrees celsius as you perhaps head outside the door first thing in the morning. but for many, a fine start to the day. in fact for some of you, it should be a lovely sunrise. the early rising sun illuminating this lump of cloud, the next weather system not taking long to move its way in and bringing rain back to northern ireland, west england and wales. but also eventually bringing some milder air into the south—west where temperatures reach around 11 degrees through the afternoon. still for most of us, it's another fairly chilly run with 6 or 7 degrees celsius, more typical temperatures. as we head into friday, that area of rain, perhaps with a little bit of mountain snow clears out of the way. we'll be left with these north—westerly winds. those north—westerly winds bringing a lot of sunshine, sparkling visibility, but also a number of showers. the showers will always be most frequent across the north—west, they will be some that reach right across the midlands, perhaps down towards even parts of southern england. temperatures, well, similar to recent days, still quite chilly around 6 or 7 degrees celsius. but the weather is set to change as we head into the weekend. another area of low pressure responsible for the change, this one is going to be bringing south—westerly winds in, particularly across parts of england and wales. could be some mist and fog patches first thing in the morning. so, for some, it could be quite a murky start and it's not entirely dry, we've got outbreaks of rain piling and particularly through western areas of the country, although probably not a huge amount of rain across eastern most areas. temperatures rising through the day, 12 degrees toward south—west england and heading into sunday, that milder air will continue to push its way eastwards and northwards. by the time we get to sunday afternoon, most of you will see temperatures into double figures and the milder spots on sunday you could see temperatures as high as 1a degrees. then it looks like it will stay quite mild into next week. there are plenty examples of nations that have huge, deep this is bbc news, i'm sally bundock, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. new covid rules are announced for england, but the prime minister's accused of trying to deflect attention from a political scandal. the beijing boycott grows, now canada and britain say they won't be sending officials to the winter olympics. do china's actions in xinjiang amount to genocide? an unofficial tribunal will give its verdict. we hearfrom one man who gave evidence. and, let there be light, the giant star marking the latest stage in the building of barcelona's la sagrada familia basilica.

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