now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk from new york. i'm stephen sackur. this city has always had an outsize influence on american culture. the buzz in this nation comes from right here in terms of the arts, entertainment, publishing, the media, but what happens in new york when america had's political culture is riven with division? well, my guest today is the great american novelist, new york resident, paul auster. if america is experiencing a culture war, is he ready to fight? paul auster, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. it's a pleasure to be in your home, your writing study is just below us, the floor below. just tell me, does it matter to you when you are writing what is going on in the world outside yourfront door? does it affect your writing? well, it depends on what you mean. if there is a fire engine screeching in front of my door, it will interrupt my concentration, and i might go out and see what's going on. but if there is a distant war going on in another place and i know about it, i'm not going to read about it while i'm doing my work for the day. but i certainly will inform myself about it later. you talk of distant wars. i'm thinking of wars much closer to home. you write a lot about your take on american politics. you've talked about your feelings through the course of four years of donald trump. you have talked about a country at war with itself. so the war isn't so very far away. yes, the war that we are engaged in here, fortunately, has not become — yet — a fighting war with guns, to a large degree. but we are divided in ways that i have never seen before. and i have been around a long time now. you've been around a long time, and you grew up with �*60s activism, you were a very vocal opponent of ronald reagan conservatism. you were a very vocal opponent of george bush's decision to go to iraq. true enough. so are you telling me there is profoundly different about this division in america, this polarisation? because you could argue that we have been here before many times. well, i think it has been a series of steps that have been taken, and each time when i think it's gotten as bad as it can possibly be, it gets worse. because once obama was elected, and this, i think, is something people don't talk about very much. there was a backlash by a sizeable percentage of the american public against the election of obama, a black man occupying the white house. just this symbolic resonance of that, i think, brought out all the hidden racism in the culture that people had forgotten about to the degree that it really continues to exist, and immediately, overnight, remember, the two pretty grew up, and by 2010, two years later, the democrats were overwhelmed in the midterm elections, even though obama was re—elected and 2012, the democrats never got a majority in congress again, and no serious legislation was passed for the last six years he was in office. you haven't even gotten to donald trump yet. not yet. and i'm thinking to myself. i'm clearing my throat, i'm getting ready for that. but you know what i'm thinking, i am thinking here speaks a man who, americans of a different political persuasion will already be dismissing as a typical new york liberal elites, and jewish. jewish on top of it all. yeah. so, i'm just wondering whether, actually, you don't see any room for communication with your political opponent? you are a leftist, that is clear, but you are not really leaving much room for communication. i want to talk to people on the other side. they don't want to talk to me. i am perfectly happy to talk to anybody. but with respect, you dismiss the trump movement as jihadist. you talked about the use of the confederate flag as though it's a swastika. your clear implication is that what trump represents is something akin to american nazism. i wouldn't go so far as to say nazi—ism, no, no, but i would say that it's an anti—democratic impulse, and it is an authoritarian impulse. i mean to say, look at the facts, it's just simply that. i mean, i think all of these labels are unimportant. we have a government that is supposed to function, is supposed to be a democracy, it's supposed to be a government of "we the people". trump... but it is, though, it is. joe biden replaced donald trump, admittedly, it didn't come easy, but it happened. i know that, i know that, and this is, you know, why the system is still standing. but, um, when trump got in, his mission was, and i don't think he really cared one way or the other, he allied himself with hard right republicans who have been trying to diminish the size and scope of the government for decades, and they finally had a willing partner in the white house this time. this brings me back to my opening question, about how you create and work when you are so passionate and so preoccupied with what is happening outside your own front door, because the truth is, during the years you've just described — the trump years — you committed to a major new artistic enterprise, a biography of a writer born in the late 19th century, that many people outside the us will never have heard of — stephen crane. true enough. and did you do that because you felt there were resonances in his short life with the united states that you are living in in yourtime? not at all, not at all. this book was not generated by politics. this book was generated by the fact that after i finished writing my last very long novel, four, three, two, 0ne, i was a very tired person, and i needed a break, and i spent some months not writing at all, anything for the first time probably in my adult life, and i was reading a lot, and i was reading books that i had somehow missed and had always wanted to read. i finally read middlemarch, for god's sake, my wife's favourite novel. i finally read to the lighthouse by virginia woolf, which i find one of the most beautiful novels i've ever read in my life, a masterpiece. and one of the writers i went back to was stephen crane, whom i had not read since i was a teenager. and for those folks who don't know him, stephen crane died very young in his late 20s�*... 28. ..of tuberculosis, but had already written some extraordinary books that perhaps the most famous of which was at take on fighting in the civil war, the red badge of courage, which he wrote, never having been a soldier, and certainly born long after the civil war was over. yes. but nonetheless a book which matters to many americans. yes. and clearly matters to you. yes, well, i think it's an extraordinary book. in any case, i started reading crane again, and i was astonished by how fantastically powerful and original it was. and then i got interested in his life, which was a fascinating life, full of all kinds of adventures, and i decided after a while that it would be a good idea to write a little book about stephen crane, an appreciation to explain why i cared about his work and why i thought people should read it and to pay more attention to than is being given to it now, and the little book grew into a big book. 800 pages of book. well, not quite 800 pages, but it's a big book, and i kept asking myself, why am i doing this? what the has gotten hold of me? and the only thing i could think of was that in four, three, two, 0ne, there is a character, ferguson, and there are four of them. archie ferguson. archie ferguson, there are four versions of... you gave him four lives. crane is ferguson five. that's how i kept thinking about it. in a way, trying to understand him was as daunting as trying to understand one of my fictional characters, and i had to go through the same processes as a writer, emotional process, it's not even an intellectual process, it's an emotional process, trying to get myself inside him to understand his very erratic at times behaviour. it's interesting to me that you link that book to four, three, two, 0ne, because as you say, in that book, you imagine this guy, born in newark in the same year you were born, and then you follow through different possibilities for his life, depending on so many contingencies and coincidences and things that happen that might not have happened. right. and it seems to me reading all of your work, one of your messages to all of us human beings is take nothing for granted, assume nothing, make plans but don't imagine they are ever going to work out because happenstance and the what ifs of life always take over. well, i agree with you completely. and thank you for summing up my work so distinctly, i'm impressed. another way to put it is, and i believe this firmly, anything can happen, and that anything can happen at any moment. but you know what that tempts me to ask you is? what? in your own life, imagine you are sort of living a life where you could look back at moments, the sliding doors moments when things might have been different, are there now things the way she would have done or decisions you'd have taken in a different way which would have taken you down different pathways, different avenues? is there a human being of our age who doesn't feel some regret about some things that we've done in the past? i can't imagine a human being who wouldn't have some second thoughts about a decision he or she made years before. what are your regrets? well, i don't even want to talk about it. why? it's too personal. i need to say, i suppose, you know, people that i, you know, attach myself to, without really understanding the nature of that other person fully enough. and let's leave it at that. see, sometimes, iwonder whether you even regret being a writer, because you have a love—hate relationship with what you do. you say you are compelled to do it, you cannot imagine not doing it, but you also describe how weird it is to make a decision to be a writer, to rather than go out into the world and live your life and experience in an outward sort of way, you turn inward. you go down to my literally come into your basement come into your writing study, and everything that they can you put yourself in there and check yourself away from it all. but i have no regrets about that. really? no, i think that i was made to do this, and i need to do it. and i don't feel that it's going inward, you see? this is something i would dispute completely. the first time i had an impulse to write anything, i was nine years old. it was the first very beautiful day of spring, it was a saturday, there was no school. i remember getting up and feeling free and happy, and i left the house early in the morning and i took a walk to the neighbourhood, i went to a little park where, not far from the house, and the first birds were hopping around, the first robins of spring. i felt ecstatically alive, and i had an impulse to write up:. age nine. age nine, and i sat down and wrote probably the most wretched poem ever written about the coming of spring, ever written by a mortal human being in the new world, and yet, this was the feeling i had, that by trying to write at what was happening, i felt more connected to the world around me. i felt that i had found a place for myself inside this teaming chaotic reality outside of myself, not inside of myself. i think that writing has always been away for me to connect rather than to separate. you have long been — i don't know if any —— you have long been — i don't know if enemy is the right word — but you have long questioned the utility of creative writing, teaching writing. well, wait, wait, wait — there is a big difference between the utility of writing and the practice of teaching writing — two different things. now, i have made the point that writing, or art in general, does not do anything tangible in the world. it doesn't fix the toilet the way a plumber can fix the toilet. it doesn't fix a broken arm the way a doctor can fix a broken arm. it is, in a sense, useless. but this uselessness, i think, is the very definition of what makes human life so exciting to live, is because we do have this ability to think and to reflect on what we are thinking and to think about the world and to make art out of that. and to value beauty. but it — exactly, but it doesn't have any concrete purpose in life. in the way that all these practical occupations do. teaching writing, on the other hand, is something i don't really think one can do. i think it's very important for young writers to have guidance — and that is something different — but these are people who are already committed to trying to become writers and they want some help about, say, how — "why doesn't the story that i've written work?" "why is this poem not succeeding?" and then you as the older writer can say, "all right. "let's look at it and figure out able to do." worry to interrupt — i'm just thinking about so many young people today who have deep sort of creative urges but are not necessarily turning to fiction writing, the novel as a platform. they are being reared in a world where actually words are mostly used on their smartphone, are mostly used in bite—size chunks and social media platforms, and i'm just wondering whether paul auster in 2021 worries that the next generation or the generation after that of people who have real creative gifts are not going to engage with, as you have just written, 800—page book. that's ok! i mean, there are all kinds of arts and they are all means of expression. far be it for me to, you know, make restrictions on what people should do. but i think you underestimate young people a little bit. i keep running into young people who are reading passionately and really care about it. i think we in the so—called — or the people in the media, the people who are somehow the gatekeepers of our culture — have decided that the audience is stupid and that they don't really know anything. and i think this is what, you know, the capitalist market of arts — i mean art as business — has assumed all along. but then are you saying in this market—oriented capitalist united states of america of 2021, where the internet and digital culture dominates all, are you saying that there — that writing fiction and the novel matters such as ever? you in the generation before you, updike and bellow and all these others. it doesn't matter because the book is read by one person at a time. and the book, in spite of everything, is the only — a novel, for example, is the only place, i think, in the human world where two strangers can meet on terms of absolute intimacy. and that space that is created in the book is something very beautiful and precious. and whether ten people read the book or 10,000 people read the book or 10 million people read the book, it doesn't matter. the person reading it is alone with the writer and the two of you — the writer in the reader are creating the book together. every reader reads it a different book. and this is what is so beautiful about it. we all bring our own lives, our own sufferings, our past to whatever we encounter in the world, and never more so than when we are encountering arts, and particularly reading, which requires time. i can look at the paintings on the wall and see what it's there, but if i pick up a 750—page book, no, i can't take it all in at once, i have to give it time, and that time is the beautiful thing about it. let me ask you a somewhat different question, but it taps into your passion for good art, you know — whether it be great writing or great pictures or great movies. you have a thing for beauty and you appreciate it. does it matter to you if you learn that the people who created that beauty where notjust deeply flawed but possibly criminal? that they did things that any right—thinking human being would regard as unacceptable. because it is a real discussion right across the culture right now. i agree — i agree — and i have thought about this all my life and the fact is, human beings are flawed and artists are flawed too. and if we expect human perfection from every artist that we want to read or look at or listen to... yeah, but you are creating a false argument. it's not about expecting perfection. well... it's about placing somebody and their art in a context. and if that create or or artistic genius, maybe, was so flawed that their behaviour were utterly unacceptable, then does that colour the way you see their creativity? let me give you an example, because it's funny you bring this up becausejust last night, my daughter and her husband were here and i started telling them about the novels from a french writer best known for up the two novels that he wrote in the 1930s — ajourney to the end of the night and death on the instalment plan, which i think are two of the greatest novels of the 20th century — extraordinary, energetic, brilliant novels. the author was a horrible anti—semite fascist, and he wrote anti—semitic tracts leading up to world war ii. and that doesn't matter? in appreciating his art? those books? now, it doesn't really, because these books are great. and that would apply to some of the modern—day discussions about everybody from philip roth to woody allen to roman polanski, whom you have argued for? listen, it is — how shall i put it? if it is in the work, then there is a discussion to be had. if it is not in the work — i mean, we listen to the music of the mediaeval composer who murdered his wife but he is truly the best mediaeval composer. it's undeniable that his music is beautiful. well, and he murdered his wife. i mean, so, the fact that he did that means we can't listen to the music? i — it's a murky subject. it is! i don't have a final answerfor you on this, i'm just saying that for me, it's complicated, because i have to be able to say that the artist did a beautiful work and i have to also say, i don't like that artist personally and i find abhorrent many of his or her ideas. how can i reconcile them? you can't. life is complicated. if we can all make simple solutions for all of life's complications, then what life really be worth living? i mean, it is messy. it's complicated. you are taking into and thoughts and philosophy here with life and its worth and i want to end with you on a personal thought. he talks about entering the winter of your own life. i mean, chronologically. i know you did, i know you did, but i'm extrapolating from that, because there are writers — i'm thinking of martin amis, for example, who said frankly, any writer who breaks their best work when they are still "young", that old people do not create their best work. i know martin. martin comes out with all kinds of remarks and there again, we can start laughing about all of this too. i don't agree with that. you said yourself — you said, "you know what? "i have written pretty much the things i wanted to write. "i will on write more if i find it to be" — and it's an interesting phrase you use — "really necessary". is it really necessary any more? or are you kind of done? no, i have started writing some new things and as long as i feel excited about what i'm doing, then i am going to keep doing it. i prefer to do it. it's just simply i don't ever feel the need to write just to write. that's not how i have ever functioned. and i'm — listen, when i first started out, i thought, "maybe i will be good enough to finish one book that will be good enough to be published, and that might be the whole thing" and then i was amazed to find myself sometime later having a new idea for another book that excited mejust as much as the first. and i thought, "well, maybe that's the end," and i've been living that way ever since thinking, "maybe this is the end," and there is something new that always seems to happen. paul auster, there are a lot of people around the world who would be delighted to hear of that. thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk. thank you for inviting me. hello there. it was cold over the weekend. some areas saw quite a bit of rain and we had some snow over northern hills. similar story as we start the new week. we've got a frontal system working its way in from the atlantic. that's going to bring another round of rain and hill snow. you can see it here showing up on that pressure chart. it will be very wet across northern ireland, parts of scotland, western england and wales to start this morning. quite quickly, though, it will brighten up across northern ireland with sunshine and showers. but this band of rain will continue its journey eastwards through the day, eventually crossing most of england. we'll see some snow over the pennines as well. there could be a bit of a hang back of the rain for east anglia in the far south—east, otherwise it brightens up for many of us with some good spells of sunshine. most of the showers will be in the north and the west, some of these heavy and frequent, and there will be some wintriness over the high ground. a cold day to come — we could see nine or ten degrees in the far south—west. it stays breezy with blustery showers, wintry on the hills through monday night. then it turns a little bit drier, but clear and cold for many of us. and then in the south—west, we start to see an area of wet and very windy weather pushing up across ireland and then into irish sea coasts. now, it's all tied in with this — the second named storm of the season — named storm barra by the irish met service because it's ireland that will see the biggest impacts from this storm through the course of tuesday. but across the rest of the uk, we'll see gusts widely 50mph, more than that near exposed coasts in the south and the west. that, mixed in with the heavy rain and also some hill snow, is likely to cause some disruption, even some damage. so, it starts very wet, very windy indeed across western areas — damaging gusts of wind. this area of rain pushes eastwards into the cold air, so likely to see some significant snow over the pennines, certainly across the scottish hills. and some of this rain, really, will be quite heavy, so a pretty atrocious—looking day, i think, for tuesday. stay tuned to the forecast — details may change. as we move out of tuesday into wednesday, storm barra begins to weaken and it sits across the uk, we think, as it does weaken. still be quite a windy day, i think, on wednesday — not as windy as tuesday, but a blustery one nonetheless with showers or longer spells of rain. these will be wintry over the higher ground as the air�*s still cold, and we'll see gales across south—western areas, too, and it's going to feel chilly — those temperatures in single digits across the board. this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. i'm alice baxter. scientists responsible for developing the astrazeneca vaccine warn a future pandemic could be even more lethal than coronavirus. the international tennis federation says it won't suspend tournaments in china — over concerns about the safety of peng shuai. more than twenty countries join an urgent demand for the taliban leadership in afghanistan to honour its promises over the safety of state workers and soldiers. gambian president, adama barrow comfortably wins re—election — but he may face an opposition challenge over allegations of voting irregularities.