president lukashenko of belarus is trying to engineer a confrontation with the european union in retaliation for the sanctions imposed on him and warsaw is warning that the very security of the eu is at stake. however, this crisis comes at a time when relations between the eu and poland's ruling justice and law party or pis are extremely strained. there are severe disagreements on a range of issues such as controversial changes to thejudiciary, lgbt rights and press freedoms. my guest is polish deputy foreign minister paweljablonski. why is poland finding it so difficult to integrate with its western partners and howjustified are concerns that it could exit the eu? deputy foreign minister paweljablonski in warsaw welcome to hardtalk. the migrant crisis on the belarus border is an eu wide problem. the polish prime minister has been meeting michelle, the president of the european council. mister michel said it's important to act quickly against belarus if necessary. what kind of action from the eu does poland want to see? it is indeed important to act quickly, it's important to be united and consistent in what we do. because it's the only language that mister lukashenko can understand. the eu has acted very fairly, very quickly this late spring, early summer when a ryan air flight was hijacked in order to detain one of the members of belarusian civil society. the sanctions imposed also in the belarusian airspace weren't really strongly felt by the dictator. and this is the answer we should have now as well. so another set of sanctions targeting both the individuals and the entities that try to engage in organising this illegal migration as well as further economic sanctions damaging the plan of the dictator. this is necessary in order to make him no longer breach international law. so deeper and wider european union sanctions against belarus. so what kind of economic sanctions are you talking about? i think all options should be on the table because the situation we are facing right now is unprecedented. we have been facing as europe in general various crisis also those related to migration legal or irregular migration. but never before we have experienced a situation where at third country is orchestrating it from the very beginning to the very end. this movement setting up fake trading agencies, chipping migrants from the countries of their origin from their country and then forcing them to cross the border. this is unprecedented, this is something which we have never experienced, this isn't lack of state terrorism. so the sanction should be potentially very wide. both targeting economy that are affecting business and entities that are profiting directly and also to a wider extent that would make belarusian dictator weaker in years. very quickly, is it your understanding that they've measures will be taken by the eu? we are very hopeful that it will take place. we are very grateful for swift reaction both from eu institutions in this regard as well as other eu member states. because in fact poland is a country that protects the eastern border such as lithuania and latvia. in fact there is a whole european union that is a target of these actions. we are hearing from these migrants that are crossing that they do not want to remain in poland to lithuania, they want to move further west. mostly to germany, to netherlands and other western countries. we do know that thousands indeed have already entered germany illegally. again, very quickly, is there a danger of some kind of military confrontation between belarus and poland? on this border? certainly this outcome that mister lukashenko would welcome because he intends to escalate so he has forces already creating a very tense situation. we have had shots on the other side of the border, so far there were shots in the air and we didn't see any situations where people would be attacked by belarusian forces. but it is very likely we will see these tensions escalated. were probably going to see more and larger groups that would be pushed towards the border with the attempt to cross it at once. in order to create a situation where this tension would provoke some reactions. our security forces both military and border guards they are prepared for this. so we do know what might happen, we have been preparing for this for the last days and weeks. we do hope that it will be maintained under control. but you cannot discount the possibility of military engagement between belarus and poland on the border and you have made that quite clear. it's a possibility. just to be very clear, we do not... this is absolutely out of the question, we have no intention of any military engagement against belarusian forces. ourjob is to protect the border we are deploying also military personnel in order to support not only the police but our intentions to protect the border and not to engage in any conflict with belarus. we want exactly the opposite. we want this to stop. we do not want any escalation, we need belarusian forces to step down to stop pushing these people towards our border. let me point this point to you by a polish aid group on the border, he says of course the belarusian side is cynically using the situation the way that you've been explaining. he says that's their strategy what is horrible is that the polish side is playing this game. and you know that your government has attracted widespread criticisms over your treatment of the migrant on the border. this is something which doesn't look good for poland, does it? and it's a dire state of affairs for a good number of people stranded in no man's land on the border. no, no, this needs to be clarified. there is no such thing as no man's land. the border is a line and these people are either on belarusian side, and a vast majority are on belarusian side or they cross into poland. so somebody crosses into poland they are not stranded anywhere. if our border guards identified that someone is illegally on the turf of poland they are being detained and then they are being processed in detention centres according to international law and international law is clear, if someone seek shelter from war persecution then they may apply for international protection for asylum, they may be considered refugees in this case unfortunately, these people are not refugees, they are migrants and they wish... they don't actually wish for asylum from poland they are declaring very openly that they want to travel to germany, netherlands, further west. so this is entirely different situation. but let me just clarify what i said, the polish red cross has talked about the huge forest area between belarus and poland and that many of the migrants are escaping into this kind of area which is what i describe as a kind of no man's land between belarus and poland. and that's the area where many of the refugees are, as he said tired, injured, some need medical care and the polish red cross has not been allowed access to help access to help them, nor any other aid group for that matter. it needs to be clarified again. there is no such thing as a no man's land or a vast forest between belarus and poland. between belarus and poland there is a thin line named the border. there is a forest on both sides and some of the people, the vast majority of them are in the forest on the belarusian side. we actually sent already humanitarian convoys to assist the people on belarusian side as well but this was rejected. if anyone is in forest or anywhere else on the polish side and if these people, these people are identified by our border guard so they are illegally there they are not left, they are not left there stranded, they are taken, detained and processed in detention centres with up obviously they received medical care on the spot on these detention centres. why want to allow journalist to go in? you declared a state of emergency, you're not allowing any independent observation byjournalists, credited ones to see all this that you describe? unfortunately, we have been facing the situation before where some activists under the guise of being journalists were not going in order to observe the situation or even being activists support people that they would need some aid, they would need some aid, they were actively damaging fences, they were destroying borders and they were very open about this, they should be no border at all and poland you just let everyone in and then afterwards decide who is migrant and who is refugee. we cannot agree to this procedure. if we agree to that it would lead to a situation where mister lukashenko would have today not 20,000 people in belarus but he would have 100 or 200,000 people because it would incite him, it would give them an incentive to escalate this crisis further. all right. so you said that the european union is very much showing a unified stand with poland over this migration issue. but looking at other issues between poland and the european union, this migrant crisis comes at a real low in relations between warsaw and brussels. does poland enjoy being the kind of rebel in the european family? oh, i don't think anybody enjoys bad. ——that we certainly don't enjoy a situation where we are being labelled all names possible by some politicians in brussels. but we need the eu — and this is clearly set in the government policy and also the vast majority of polish society that we believe the membership in the european union is one of the most important aspects of our international position. we are very clear about that. what we don't like about our certain processes and brussels is that some institutions and some politicians tend to overstep the confidences that are attributed upon them and treaties effectively they try to act as eu would be one unified superstate. it's not a superstate, it's a organisation of 27 separate member states. and we believe this is the right way to go. we want the eu to continue as it is with respect with equality, equal approach and one standard for everyone. all right. 0ne standard for everyone and equality that's one of the issues at stake here, isn't it? because the party, the pis, the law and justice party is very much at odds because it's a very socially conservative party, very much at odds with the kind of values which are espoused by the european union in particular when it comes to lgbt rights for instance. that's the kind dispute you have. not at all. in fact, there is no such thing as lgbt values in the treaty. when we werejoining the eu 7 years ago this was one of the topics of debate, public debate. and eu topics to find the treaty to say that one party or another is at odds with eu values would be to undermine the basic principle of the eu. and the principle of democracy. if a nation decides that the government should be conservative or liberal this is the right of citizens to do it in elections which we have in poland over the last six years, we have won the election six times. this is from the people. but do you think that it is acceptable when the president of poland who is a social conservative and allied to the pis makes statements about communities in poland and says that lgbtq ideology is more harmful than communism. he describes people from the community as a threat to the family. and they see that kind of language is divisive and discriminatory. we could certainly debate on the way certain ideas are formulated. but to say that criticising our agenda of left wing lgbt activists is something out of the question and it wouldn't be possible, this would impede freedom of speech. we have debates and conservative people also have the right to speak up if they do not feel that certain elements of left—wing agenda are good for the country. i don't see it as a problem because obviously, we have divisions and public discuss. on many topics. we only see the divisions of problems when they are being sold by the conservative side. this is a public debate, we have to agree on some ——disagree issues to find common. you talk about public debate and freedom of speech, your government has also been heavily criticised for press freedoms. reporters without borders declared a press freedom state of emergency and poland in september. you dropped from 18 to 64th position, dennis mcshane a former british government minister was also former president and the national union ofjournalists says the government have lost a systematic enduring assault on press freedom trying to block not polish one of the media and the government advertising to pro—regime to pro—regime governments. i could go on and on. where is your freedom of speech that you just so espoused so eloquently? you obviously could go on and on and our critics go on and on for the last six years, we are being criticised. this is going on and on and all media, also domestically. actually if you look at the media and poland you would see from the 80 to 90% are critical. if you ask where is the freedom of speech, it's just here. everybody is free to say whatever, is a public debate and actually if you compare the situation to the one that we used to have before it was government took over in 2015, it was all dominated by liberal. change... i've told you what your critics say, you've given your reply, you're obviously not going to accept what they said but ijust put that out in the public domain. another big flash point between the european union and warsaw is the verdict in early october by the constitutional court in poland that key elements of the european unions laws are not compatible with the countries constitution. this is a serious matter, ursula von der leyen, the head of the european commission says this really calls into question the foundations of the european union, it is a direct challenge to the unity of the european legal order. what you say to that? yes, indeed, in some brussels politicians are saying this actually brings us back to what we have been discussing before. we have solid and firm commitment to remain of the european union the wine we agreed and the treaty there is one basic principle, the principle of conferral. which means if there are some conferred upon the union then obviously the union can act in this regard. but also there are some that remain at the sole responsibility of members. of the 0f thejudiciary. we of the judiciary. we are having our debate and some people trying to expand the confidence effectively without changing international law. they want to transfer the union into one superstate. no, no no, no, no no. we believe that everybody should stick to the treaties was that this is the rule of law. . ., law. there are legitimate concerns _ law. there are legitimate concerns of _ law. there are legitimate concerns of the _ law. there are legitimate concerns of the european law. there are legitimate - concerns of the european union about getting the balance right in the european court of justice and national solve entry and indeed the courts and other eu states have resist the reach of eu law. but none like poland has ruled that the constitution is in conflict with the eu treaties. that's the point. listen... no... referred smaller cases to a smaller extent but the main principle is still here. who decides, who has the right to control? are these the eu institutions to centralise institutions to centralise institutions of brussels or are we still in an international organisation where it members decide? we believe the latter to be correct. because it is the member states that are the masters of the tree.— masters of the tree. they don't .net eu doesn't _ masters of the tree. they don't .net eu doesn't agree - masters of the tree. they don't .net eu doesn't agree with - masters of the tree. they don't| .net eu doesn't agree with you. a professor from .net eu doesn't agree with you. a professorfrom rutgers a professor from rutgers university, a professorfrom rutgers university, yeah, yeah. he says theissue university, yeah, yeah. he says the issue at stake is whether the issue at stake is whether the eu can expect to require its member states to have independentjudiciary is an the fundamental. that is the essence that your government believes that they judiciary essence that your government believes that theyjudiciary is in and needs an overhaul but the eu believes that compromises the independence of thejudiciary in poland in favour of the executive. that's the key problem you have with the key problem you have with the eu. ., ., , ~ , the eu. no, that is the key argument _ the eu. no, that is the key argument that _ the eu. no, that is the key argument that the - the eu. no, that is the key argument that the eu - the eu. no, that is the key| argument that the eu uses. the eu. no, that is the key. argument that the eu uses. i was it couldn't be resolved? 0n was it couldn't be resolved? on october the 27th the eu imposed a daily find ofi million euros on poland until it resent some of the changes especially the disbandment of a disciplinary chamber of the supreme court. you've hinted you might do that. will it happen?- you've hinted you might do that. will it happen? allow me to re5pond _ that. will it happen? allow me to re5pond to _ that. will it happen? allow me to respond to what _ that. will it happen? allow me to respond to what you - that. will it happen? allow me to respond to what you said i to respond to what you said that this is the key problem. it is the key argument that the eu uses but in fact it is the key argument which is based on disregard of reality. yet again, as you mentioned the freedom of speech, there are these claims of lack of independence injudiciary. i always ask people to tell me the situation, show me one thing that you cannot really say in polish media if you say there is no freedom of speech. show me one that is not independent actually in the courts very often the government and politicians of the ruling party also lose because this is how the systems... because this is how the systems. . .— because this is how the systems... because this is how the s stems... ~ . ., systems... we are getting into the nitty-gritty _ systems... we are getting into the nitty-gritty of _ systems... we are getting into the nitty-gritty of the - the nitty—gritty of the changes, we can go into the nitty—gritty because of the interest of time. nitty-gritty because of the interest of time. however... is the proof _ interest of time. however... is the proof whether _ interest of time. however... is the proof whether this - interest of time. however... is the proof whether this claim i interest of time. however... is the proof whether this claim is | the proof whether this claim is true or false? the proof whether this claim is true orfalse? this claim is entirely based on some assumptions that should be potential of systemic risk. what is actual matter, there is nothing like should list in actual facts that if you did. is the european unions position as i said they are imposing respond, you are a net recipient of eu funds in the european commission has declined to approve your request for 36 billion euros of post—pandemic funding. this is going tojeopardise post—pandemic funding. this is going to jeopardise bowlines recovery, it's can it you where it hurts, isn't it?— it hurts, isn't it? obviously we see this _ it hurts, isn't it? obviously we see this step, - it hurts, isn't it? obviously we see this step, this - it hurts, isn't it? obviously- we see this step, this movement that hasn't been resolved yet as something that greatly threatens notjust poland but unity of the eu as a whole. because let's assume that poland today which is given to the demands and say that whatever brussels institutions demand we should follow because otherwise they will block the money. that would mean effectively that brussels institutions can demand anything from any member state in the future. and this would effectively turn the eu into one state which it is not unless obviously the treaties or chairs for the far they haven't been changes in this direction, were rejected. we got back i am optimistic in the long run that this will be resolved was european law needs also to be a reserve. the rule of law that treaties are observed notjust by member state but also by the country. finally, what does all this mean for bowlines long—term future in the eu? we talked about the disagreements that exist. the french ministerfor europe says this whole legal row has raise the risk of a de facto exit from the eu for poland. a german mep says there is a risk of: sleepwalking into an exit from the eu against the will of your european friends and against the will of the polish people. there is a danger isn't there that that could happen?— danger isn't there that that could happen? poll exit. this dancer could happen? poll exit. this danger is _ could happen? poll exit. this danger is no _ could happen? poll exit. this danger is no bigger— could happen? poll exit. this danger is no bigger than - could happen? poll exit. this danger is no bigger than the | danger is no bigger than the danger is no bigger than the danger of france leaving the eu. if french courts can say that french constitution is over, european also can... decision along the eu. is there a risk of pole exit?— decision along the eu. is there a risk of pole exit? cr’sz. are a risk of pole exit? 0%. are ou a risk of pole exit? 0%. are you absolutely _ a risk of pole exit? 0%. are you absolutely sure? - a risk of pole exit? 0%. are you absolutely sure? absolutely sure, they're present. because polish society the vast majority around 90% is very much pro—european and wanted remain in the eu. we want to keep it as an organisation of 27, three sovereign, equal member states. these principles need to be observed, this is the rule of law requires a mute will continue to struggle if need be and we will remain in the eu in order to change it to make it happen.— the eu in order to change it to make it happen. deputy foreign minister of _ make it happen. deputy foreign minister of poland _ make it happen. deputy foreign minister of poland pawel- minister of poland pawel jablonski, thank you for coming on hardtalk.— on hardtalk. thank you for havin: on hardtalk. thank you for having me- _ hello. temperatures fell back closer to average again in scotland and northern ireland on wednesday. but milder air is coming back and the warm autumn continues because this week so far, 17 on monday was the high temperature. 17 again on tuesday. wednesday saw 16 degrees and there is another push of milder air approaching from the atlantic around an area of low pressure, which is also going to bring the chance of rain and some windier conditions for a day and a night, anyway. thisis how we start thursday morning. you will be quite chilly across parts of southern scotland, northern ireland in northern england. we will see some clear spells overnight, also the far north of scotland, so there is a touch of ground frost possible. this area of rain in scotland weakening with the cloud as it pushes its way northwards again. for england wells that will be a lot of cloud, mist and murk to begin with, some fog patches, poor visibility, drizzly in places and we will see a spell of rain pushing through northern ireland, parts of wales, northwest england on toward southwest scotland today is the day goes on with the fresh wind in the west. these are average speeds, some gusts of around a0 miles an hour developing on the western coasts by the end of the day. but with that, the milder air is coming back into belfast at ia degrees. it will start to creep northwards across scotland once again with this area of rain. and as we go on through thursday night, there will be a few spells of rain running into northern ireland into scotland, northern england, wales and a few patches of rain just starting to push a little further east across england as a going to friday morning. it is a mild night, mild start to friday. let's take a look at that area of low pressure. looks to be working across scotland during friday but of course the weather from around it will be impacting all of the uk. doesn't mean to say we're all get to see a huge amount of rain. the further south you out to just be a few splashes here and there. closer to that low pressure system through northern ireland but especially central southern parts of scotland and england the chance of seeing the heavie rdownpours on friday for the early rain on the far north of mainland scotland the rest of the day looks dry. it's a blustery day across the uk again, it's another mild one of us up into the weekend this area of low pressure will move away quite quickly allowing high pressure to build in behind but that settles the weather down again. it will become mainly dry over the weekend, there will be a lot of cloud around, sunshine at a premium regardless though, we have a mild weekend on the way. welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines: a surprise move as the world's biggest economies — china and the us — agree a joint approach to climate change. the united states and china have no shortage of differences but on climate, on climate, cooperation is the only way to get this job cooperation is the only way to get thisjob done. migrants on the belarus border continue to suffer as they try to enter poland. russia is accused of manipulating the situation for its own ends. a pandemic of the unvaccinated — germany warns its hospitals are close to being overwhelmed by record levels of covid infections.

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