characters facing very human dilemmas. they are painstakingly put together and not always easy to watch. is the demand for his kind of artistic vision dwindling? mike leigh, welcome to hardtalk. it's very nice to be here. it is great to have you here. we've all lived through difficult times thanks to the covid pandemic. in the use of all times, do you buy into this notion that escapism is a key motivation that gets people to the cinema? well, people want to escape, but people also want to be stimulated. so, i think the force notion is that there's either escapist escapist material or there's boring stuff that isn't escapist and therefore nobody wants to watch it. it's rubbish, basically. my experience over a long time is that people want to be stimulated. no film, no piece of entertainment is any... it's not actually entertaining, as far as i'm concerned, and i make serious films that are also comic as well. i mean, comedy is very much part of what it's all about. alfred hitchcock once said a woman who spends all day washing and cleaning and ironing does not want to go to the movies and watch a film about a woman who spends all day washing and cleaning and ironing, and i flatly disagree with alfred hitchcock. my experience is that people, for a good deal of the time, if that's what you give them, are stimulated by being able to relate to what's happening in a movie. but obviously, there are serious movies and there are trivial movies. there's good movies and bad movies. but there's always the case for a wired and varied diet, but there's absolutely no question in many people's view, and certainly my experience, that films that are at heart serious and hold a mirror up to life are worth it. do you think it's harder to do it that way, to look deep within "ordinary life" to find the entertaining, the important, the funny, than it is to actually spend loads of money creating imaginary worlds? well, that's a slightly complicated and mixed—up question! the question as to whether it's harder — i mean, look, anybody that creates anything, and that includes movies, is an artist of some sort, and what you're motivated to do comes from how you respond to the material. my natural instinct — and has been all my life, if you like — is to look at the real world and want to make stories out of it. now, of course there are people whose starting point isn't actually the real world as such, and there's some great work made. i think it's all in their heads or all in their imagination or all in their sense of fantasy or whatever that might be. the question of the amount of money that's thrown at things is a whole different matter. we'll go to that later. money is important — mechanics are making films. yeah. let's stick with just the pure idea of what works, what makes for interesting content. i'm just very interested to know, in this time of pandemic when social distancing has made your sort of work very difficult, whether you've looked at how we've all lived and thought, "well, there's some fascinating... "i really want to make a film about something related to the pandemic." well, that's quite a difficult one. certainly, as the pandemic has progressed in the last 18 months, getting on for two years, certainly what's happened to me — and this has happened to everybody — my perception of the ordinary world, of the ordinary business of how we live, has started to shift, because how we live has changed. so, it's inevitable that one starts to think about pandemic age material. pandemic—age material. they can't help it, basically. so, yes, that is a very strong possibility. people watching and listening to this around the world, some will be very familiar with your work, and i think we're talking about 1k feature films — if i'm not wrong, but then a host of other tv dramas and the plays that you've written as well — some will know the work, some will not. would it be fair, if we are generalising, would it be fair to say you have always been fascinated by a close focus look at the social and economic class complexities of this country that you were born in and live in? yes, absolutely. and apart from a film i made in northern ireland, which is a different culture, and a play that i made in australia at the end of the �*805, in australia at the end of the �*80s, all my work has been set in this country. and it's my natural habitat, and yes, absolutely.— absolutely. would you characterise _ absolutely. would you characterise this - absolutely. would you characterise this as i absolutely. would you - characterise this as political? you take on very political subjects, but i wonder if you're fuelled by... well, to be blunt, anger.— you're fuelled by... well, to be blunt, anger. well, here's the thing- — be blunt, anger. well, here's the thing- i— be blunt, anger. well, here's the thing. i don't _ be blunt, anger. well, here's the thing. i don't make - be blunt, anger. well, here's the thing. i don't make films| the thing. i don't make films that say, "think this." bulimics. i don't. that say, "think this." bulimics. idon�*t. —— that say, "think this." bulimics. i don't. —— polemics. even my last film. bulimics. idon't. -- polemics. even my last film.— even my last film. which to those who _ even my last film. which to those who don't _ even my last film. which to those who don't know, - even my last film. which to those who don't know, the | even my last film. which to - those who don't know, the title comes from this democratic movement in the early 19th century, which in the northern city of manchester led to thousands of people who wanted a greater voice in british society gathering in a public place and then being loaned down by police on horseback. br; down by police on horseback. el: government forces. even that film, politicalthough government forces. even that film, political though it obviously is, in the end leaves the audience to consider, to ponder, to reflect on, to discuss. and all of my other films are in that sense political with a small p. i make films that look at how we live our lives. but they're not polemics. you asked me whether my films are motivated by angen my films are motivated by anger. to some degree, you could say that, but also by compassion and by care about how we live, how we relate, how we survive in all of those things. we survive in all of those thins. ., , �*, things. you get inside people's lives, inside _ things. you get inside people's lives, inside their— things. you get inside people's lives, inside their houses, - things. you get inside people's lives, inside their houses, the | lives, inside their houses, the secrets that lie behind front doors and suburban streets, and that raises the question of how do you know that these are truly authentic? you are the son of a doctor. you portray lives that are much poorer than a life you've ever known. can you be truly authentic and your portrayal?— portrayal? first of all, across the span _ portrayal? first of all, across the span of— portrayal? first of all, across the span of films _ portrayal? first of all, across the span of films i've - portrayal? first of all, across the span of films i've made, | the span of films i've made, some of them are about middle—class life and some of them are about what we call posh people. people are people and that's the key to it. as to my knowledge, i think if you're any good at the job of an artist, you can and should empathise and understand everything and everybody, and i try and do that. but everything and everybody, and i try and do that.— try and do that. but there is something _ try and do that. but there is something with _ try and do that. but there is something with the - try and do that. but there is i something with the occupation in our culture in the authenticity that comes with having lived the life that you present in your art, whatever form it may take. do you have that? ., , , that? two things. three things, if ou that? two things. three things, if you like- _ that? two things. three things, ifyou like- i _ that? two things. three things, if you like. i live _ that? two things. three things, if you like. i live in _ that? two things. three things, if you like. i live in the - that? two things. three things, if you like. i live in the real - if you like. i live in the real world. i don't live in a vacuum. the second thing is my dock was a doctor in the working—class area. i went to local schools and i know that world very well. i've been around, etc. —— my dad was a doctor. the work that we do, no matter what the subject matter — and that includes films like mr turner — — and that includes films like mrturner — and — and that includes films like mr turner — and film we made called topsy—turvy about the theatrical world in the 1880s of gilbert and sullivan. whatever we do, including the films about working—class life, we spend a very long time researching and understanding and know what we're dealing with. i and know what we're dealing with. ., ., ., ~ ., with. i want to talk about the wa ou with. i want to talk about the way you work _ with. i want to talk about the way you work with _ with. i want to talk about the way you work with actors. - with. i want to talk about the i way you work with actors. your films are driven by the degree to which your actors can make believable their characters. how deep they can immerse themselves in character. how do you get them to that level of immersion?— you get them to that level of immersion? the first thing to be said about _ immersion? the first thing to be said about that _ immersion? the first thing to be said about that is - immersion? the first thing to be said about that is that - immersion? the first thing to be said about that is that i i be said about that is that i work with what we would call character actors, which is to say people that don'tjust play themselves, actors who not motivated by ego or narcissism. not hollywood stars?— not hollywood stars? that's also true- — not hollywood stars? that's also true. no _ not hollywood stars? that's also true. no disrespect - not hollywood stars? that's also true. no disrespect to i not hollywood stars? that's i also true. no disrespect to all hollywood stars. but british character actors who really are good at, brilliant at, want to play and portray real people out there in the street. share out there in the street. are out there in the street. are you saying _ out there in the street. are you saying that _ out there in the street. are you saying that the - out there in the street. are you saying that the star names, the hollywood stars, aren't capable? i the hollywood stars, aren't capable?— capable? i didn't say that. that's capable? i didn't say that. thats why _ capable? i didn't say that. thats why i _ capable? i didn't say that. that's why i immediately, | capable? i didn't say that. - that's why i immediately, when you introduced the subject, i put a slight motivation on it. i'm not really bothered about criticising... . i i'm not really bothered about criticising... ._ criticising... . idon't want to criticise, _ criticising... . idon't want to criticise, i _ criticising... . idon't want to criticise, ijust - criticising... . idon't want to criticise, i just wonderl to criticise, ijust wonder when actors reach that level, and maybe it's something to do with books the degree they become a brand, and makes it impossible for them to do the sort of work you want. to some decree, sort of work you want. to some degree. that's _ sort of work you want. to some degree, that's true, _ sort of work you want. to some degree, that's true, but - sort of work you want. to some degree, that's true, but i - degree, that's true, but i would say that there are hollywood stars that are great character after his. i'm not in the business within one working with american hollywood stars because we have an incredible resource of brilliant british actors. �* , , ., actors. but in the style of ours actors. but in the style of yours where _ actors. but in the style of yours where you - actors. but in the style of yours where you gather i actors. but in the style of i yours where you gather the actors. but in the style of - yours where you gather the core group together for weeks and weeks of rehearsals —— months of rehearsals, and without... in the beginning, you don't have a lot, you as a team work through it over these many months. are there some actors who you take on who just aren't suitable? who you take on who 'ust aren't suitable? , , , ., suitable? very very seldom. it happened _ suitable? very very seldom. it happened a — suitable? very very seldom. it happened a tiny _ suitable? very very seldom. it happened a tiny handful- suitable? very very seldom. it happened a tiny handful of- happened a tiny handful of times over a large number of projects over decades. it's very rare. it's partly because i am rigorous and how i set out. i am rigorous and howl set out. ., i am rigorous and howl set out. ~ ., , i am rigorous and howl set out. ~ ., well, out. sound kind of scary. well, --eole out. sound kind of scary. well, people that _ out. sound kind of scary. well, people that do _ out. sound kind of scary. well, people that do it _ out. sound kind of scary. well, people that do it and _ out. sound kind of scary. well, people that do it and are - out. sound kind of scary. well, people that do it and are good | people that do it and are good at it love it, and the more they love it, the better they are at it. there are some fantastic actors because there are actors who are fantastically good at being real and a heightened way. but doesnt real and a heightened way. but doesn't always need to be actors? there are some directors that draw people from what you talk about real life, but who have no acting experience at all because they want that extra level of authenticity.— want that extra level of authentici . ., �*, ., authenticity. that's arriving b a authenticity. that's arriving by a different _ authenticity. that's arriving by a different route. - authenticity. that's arriving by a different route. i - authenticity. that's arriving by a different route. i work| by a different route. i work with professional actors, who understand the processes of acting. because there's more to it than just being real in the moment and the drama. doing all sorts of work so when you get to that moment, it really is more than rock—solid. it's complicated, and from my sort of work, it demands sophisticated professional actors. i sophisticated professional actors. ., �* ~' , actors. i don't think there is any other— actors. i don't think there is any other director _ actors. i don't think there is any other director who - actors. i don't think there is | any other director who works quite like you do, and it's worked. you've won acclaimed awards all over the world, but particularly in europe. you've won baftas in the united kingdom, and yet it still seems you feel very much like an outsider in the film industry, and i'm wondering why after all that. to and i'm wondering why after all that. ., ,., that. to some degree, the notion that _ that. to some degree, the notion that i'm _ that. to some degree, the notion that i'm an - that. to some degree, thej notion that i'm an outsider that. to some degree, the i notion that i'm an outsider in the film industry is more to do with what journalists the film industry is more to do with whatjournalists have said. i mean, iam an with whatjournalists have said. i mean, i am an outsider in the sense that... anybody with the money backing a film ljy with the money backing a film by me is more desperately threatening prospect than when you see a stripped and know where the cast is. —— a script. there's a level of trust you're demanding. you are saying "give me a few million pounds, but i'm not going to tell you about my films." i'm not going to tell you about my films-"— i'm not going to tell you about m films.“ ~ , , ., ., my films." absolutely, and over the years. _ my films." absolutely, and over the years, that's _ my films." absolutely, and over the years, that's what _ the years, that's what happened. only one of two things has happened. they said go for it, here's the money, or they've told us to get lost. i don't wish to be rude, but what i appear to see right now is that more of the money men and women and the film business are telling you to get lost. corrected.— telling you to get lost. i corrected.- good corrected. all right. good question- _ corrected. all right. good question. i'm _ corrected. all right. good question. i'm here - corrected. all right. good question. i'm here to - corrected. all right. good question. i'm here to ask| corrected. all right. good - question. i'm here to ask them, ou're question. i'm here to ask them, you're here _ question. i'm here to ask them, you're here answer. _ question. i'm here to ask them, you're here answer. i— question. i'm here to ask them, you're here answer. i don't- you're here answer. i don't know. maybe _ you're here answer. i don't know. maybe someone - you're here answer. i don't. know. maybe someone should phone and. i know. maybe someone should phone and-— phone and. i don't mean to be brutal, phone and. i don't mean to be brutal. is _ phone and. i don't mean to be brutal, is it — phone and. i don't mean to be brutal, is it because _ phone and. i don't mean to be brutal, is it because for - brutal, is it because for example your last film, which i know proud of, it cost a lot of money by your standards because it had a bid cast —— big cast. it cost the best part of 18 million us dollars and it took the box office less than 2 million. , ., the box office less than 2 million. , . . million. yes, that may have something _ million. yes, that may have something to _ million. yes, that may have something to do _ million. yes, that may have something to do with - million. yes, that may have something to do with it, - million. yes, that may have | something to do with it, and that's the price we pay. to be honest, i dig it's more about the climate, the current climate, but i don't know. i would prefer to pass on that one. ~ , ., would prefer to pass on that one. ~ . ., one. when you say the climate, i'm not entirely _ one. when you say the climate, i'm not entirely sure _ one. when you say the climate, i'm not entirely sure what - one. when you say the climate, i'm not entirely sure what you l i'm not entirely sure what you mean. in i'm not entirely sure what you mean. , , mean. in the film industry. there's a — mean. in the film industry. there's a hunger. - mean. in the film industry. there's a hunger. i- mean. in the film industry. there's a hunger. i mean, | there's a hunger. i mean, there's a hungerfor there's a hunger. i mean, there's a hunger for obviously commercial stuff, and in that sense, i don't qualify.- sense, i don't qualify. mike leiah sense, i don't qualify. mike leigh has— sense, i don't qualify. mike leigh has to _ sense, i don't qualify. mike leigh has to ask— sense, i don't qualify. mike leigh has to ask himself. sense, i don't qualify. mike leigh has to ask himself a i leigh has to ask himself a question. is he prepared to bend a little bit? are you prepared to perhaps tailor what you do a little more to what the commercial people in the film business want? i the commercial people in the film business want?- the commercial people in the film business want? i think the answer to _ film business want? i think the answer to that _ film business want? i think the answer to that question - film business want? i think the answer to that question is - film business want? i think the answer to that question is it's i answer to that question is it's less a matter of... no, i'm not prepared to do that because i think audiences for my work like what that is. but think audiences for my work like what that is.— like what that is. but they mi . ht like what that is. but they might like _ like what that is. but they might like something - like what that is. but they might like something that like what that is. but they i might like something that is different. , , �*, different. yes, but here's the thin. i different. yes, but here's the thing. i don't— different. yes, but here's the thing. i don't know _ different. yes, but here's the thing. i don't know how- different. yes, but here's thej thing. i don't know how many different. yes, but here's the i thing. i don't know how many of my films you've actually seen. i'm a geezer, so i've seen quite a few. i'm a geezer, so i've seen quite a few-— i'm a geezer, so i've seen tuite a few. ~ ~ ., ., quite a few. we will know that the are quite a few. we will know that they are can — quite a few. we will know that they are can -- _ quite a few. we will know that they are can -- and _ quite a few. we will know that they are can -- and they - quite a few. we will know that they are can -- and they vary| they are can —— and they vary considerably. they're not all the same. they all have siblings of characteristics. but they do vary considerably. at one end of the spectrum, you have comedy like abigail's party and stuff. at the other end, you've got things like naked. even that film, which is being released commercially, has got humour in it. it's about lots of things. so, no, in terms of what you're really asking in terms of what i want to make... asking in terms of what i want to make---_ asking in terms of what i want to make... either that or bend a little bit _ to make... either that or bend a little bit on _ to make... either that or bend a little bit on what _ to make... either that or bend a little bit on what you - to make... either that or bend a little bit on what you said i a little bit on what you said earlier about the kinds of actors you work with. you work with brilliant actors, there's no question that people like timothy spall, who you've made at least half a dozen movie with, our brilliant actors, but they did not on the top of the to get the kinds of people who are into your movies that haven't traditionally seen a might leave movie —— mike leigh. yellow i don't think it's right. i think we're talking about the right thing. i've seen the logic, but it doesn't really wash. it's not really what it's about.- really what it's about. how bleak are _ really what it's about. how bleak are you? _ really what it's about. how bleak are you? i _ really what it's about. how bleak are you? i just i really what it's about. how i bleak are you? i just wonder really what it's about. how bleak are you? ijust wonder if bleak are you? i just wonder if you're feeling particularly bleak to the point where you're close to giving up, because this is a quote from an updated version of a book leon lee, you are quoted as saying, "my unscripted films, just not commercial, fair enough." it is just a shock after half a century to discover that the game is up, thejoke is over and the curtain is probably coming down. i and the curtain is probably coming down.— and the curtain is probably coming down. i think i should be allowed — coming down. i think i should be allowed a _ coming down. i think i should be allowed a little _ coming down. i think i should be allowed a little hyperbole. laughter i'm not bleak and i'm not giving up. in fact, i'm not bleak and i'm not giving up. infact, i i'm not bleak and i'm not giving up. in fact, i don't remember saying that, but i know i did. it's in the book. i'm not at all pessimistic, to be honest. aha, i'm not at all pessimistic, to be honest-— i'm not at all pessimistic, to be honest. ~ , , ., be honest. a broader question about the _ be honest. a broader question about the culture. _ be honest. a broader question about the culture. there's i be honest. a broader question about the culture. there's a i about the culture. there's a lot of discussion and i have it with different artists in different media at the moment about the culture we live in, the focus on identity, representation, offence causing and how to respond to that. whether the art needs to provide safe spaces to people. do you feel our 21st century culture is somewhat confused about what art is for and how it should be seen?— it should be seen? well, i certainly _ it should be seen? well, i certainly am _ it should be seen? well, i certainly am extremely i it should be seen? well, i i certainly am extremely cautious about box ticking.— about box ticking. what to you as box ticking? _ about box ticking. what to you as box ticking? box _ about box ticking. what to you as box ticking? box ticking i as box ticking? box ticking is... as box ticking? box ticking is- -- we — as box ticking? box ticking is... we all _ as box ticking? box ticking is... we all agree - as box ticking? box ticking is... we all agree about i is... we all agree about diversity, there's no question about that, but if you do things for the wrong reasons — and that includes what we were talking about a few minutes ago, about hollywood stores. who you put into movies. the important _ who you put into movies. the important thing _ who you put into movies. the important thing is _ who you put into movies. iie: important thing is that everything has to be done for the right reasons and with integrity, and in a serious way. it's very, very... it's very possible to get confused.. it is about entertainment. all sorts of things to say on all sorts of things to say on all sorts of things to say on all sorts of different levels about lives and people and how we lives and people and how we live and also is entertaining. but moore has changed in cultural attitudes, and you mentioned the film naked which is being released. there are scenes in that film that are very difficult to watch. there are rape scenes and there is a character who is clearly a rapist in the movie. some women have found that difficult to take and don't like that movie and say that it offends them. what is your response to that? do you look back at some of your movies and think you wouldn't have made that today? well, ifi wouldn't have made that today? well, if i do feel that i wouldn't make naked today, it isn't for that reason. it's merely that we move on anyway. to be honest, if i really felt that about naked, we wouldn't have done a restoration and it wouldn't be going out on the re—released right now. i don't think that. the important thing about the rapist, and there is one in naked, is he is not the central character. he is actually there is much as anything to upset the notion that the central character is a misogynist, which he isn't. it's a complex film, so i think these things... we have to be careful because not everything is black and white.— is black and white. final thought- _ is black and white. final thought. you _ is black and white. final thought. you made i is black and white. final thought. you made it i is black and white. final i thought. you made it pretty clear to me that film—making for you is ongoing. there is no way, even if you struggle to get the money, you're packing it in. ., ., it in. that the real point. struggling _ it in. that the real point. struggling is _ it in. that the real point. struggling is struggling, | it in. that the real point. i struggling is struggling, but that doesn't mean the battle is over. simple as that! filmmaking is an important part of our cultural. i've been involved with blunt young film—makers and there's all sorts of things happening which are incredibly exciting and by no means is that in any shape orform obvious no means is that in any shape or form obvious old—fashioned commercial or form obvious old —fashioned commercial stuff. or form obvious old—fashioned commercialstuff. people or form obvious old—fashioned commercial stuff. people are doing all sorts of things with this magical medium. i agree. that's a lovely _ this magical medium. i agree. that's a lovely way _ this magical medium. i agree. that's a lovely way to - this magical medium. i agree. that's a lovely way to end. i that's a lovely way to end. thank you very much for being on programme i.— on programme i. think you. thank you lot _ on programme i. think you. thank you lot -- _ on programme i. think you. thank you lot -- thanks i on programme i. think you. thank you lot -- thanks a i on programme i. think you. | thank you lot -- thanks a lot on programme i. think you. i thank you lot -- thanks a lot ? thank you lot —— thanks a lot ? on hardtalk. hello. after a bright and blustery sunday, lighter winds for monday morning mean it will feel colder out there at the start of monday. looks to be the coldest part of the week ahead, but the milder air isn't too far away from coming back with these set of weather fronts about to move in from the atlantic with thicker cloud and some patchy rain, heading into westernmost parts of the uk to begin the day, especially into northern ireland. where skies have stayed clearfor long enough, over the night, across eastern scotland and eastern england, this is where temperatures will have fallen low enough with those light winds for a touch of frost. any early sunshine isn't going to last too long here, as cloud increases. the rain from northern ireland will then gradually move across scotland as the day goes on, heaviest in the west, into northwest england and wales. though much of the midlands, eastern and southern england, will stay largely dry during daylight hours. the milder air lifting the temperature in belfast to 15 celsius. still feeling quite chilly into eastern parts of england with the cloud increasing after that frosty start around 10 degrees in norwich. further outbreaks of rain overnight and into tuesday through northern ireland and scotland, pushing into parts of northern england, it will be a much milder night overnight and into tuesday. double figure temperatures for many of the larger towns and city centres as we start the day. this weather front is only very slowly edging southwards on tuesday. so, probably cloud and some outbreaks of rain into northern england and wales, pushing into parts of the midlands and southwest england. east anglia, the southeast, will stay largely dry, a few hazy, sunny spells. a brighter day in scotland and northern ireland, albeit a few showery bursts of rain spreading their way southwards during the day. and temperatures are definitely on the mild side of average, and that's where they're going to stay for the rest of the week. this weather front is still around into wednesday, in fact, there will be another pulse of energy running along it. it looks as if that will bring some outbreaks of rain into parts of wales and england on wednesday. a bright day in scotland and northern ireland. there will be a few showers just edging towards northwest scotland during the day. again, those temperatures for the most part are into double figures. again, that's where they are going to stay for the rest of the week. a fair amount of cloud around, some sunny spells here and there and another set of atlantic weather fronts beginning to take some rain southwards from scotland and northern ireland into wales and england as we head towards the end of the week. bye— bye. welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines: iraq's prime minister appeals for calm after surviving a drone attack on his home in baghdad. the uk's prime minister is accused of "corrupt and contemptible behaviour" by the opposition labour party after he tried to protect a former cabinet minister who had broken lobbying rules. chinese president xijinping is expected to cement his authority and legacy at a key communist party gathering which opens this monday. an american welcome — the us will shortly reopen its borders to fully—vaccinated travellers from much of the world.

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