No politician since Winston Churchill has had as many seniorjobs in the cabinet as my guest this week. Sajid javid replaced Matt Hancock as borisjohnson� s Health Secretary. Before that, he himself has had to quit as chancellor after a spat with Dominic Cummings. Hed also done a host of otherjobs Home Secretary, business secretary, Communities Secretary and Culture Secretary as well. He revealed in a speech this week that his mum had said, you may not be a doctor, but at least you have got a job in health care. Sajid javid, welcome to political thinking. Thank you. Its my pleasure to join you. So, your mum is pleased that you are not only Health Secretary but you kept your job in the reshuffle. Shes very pleased, and, with that, like a lot of asian parents, i think she wanted at least one of her sons to be a Doctor And None of us quite made it. And when i did call her when i first got this job she said just that. Well, you never made it as gp, but at least youre now working in health care. Ithought, oh, wow, thanks, mum. The next best thing yeah, it is as far as shes concerned, yeah. Were you waiting by your phone this week, or did you just, like the rest of us, think, well, hes surely not going to change myjob now, ive onlyjust got it . Yeah, i. First of all, when you hear theres a reshuffle, may, may not happen, theres always speculation, so you never really quite know, and once it got going i. I dont think anyone realistically expected that myjob would change after 11 weeks or so in thejob. I think ive done a fairly good job so far, so i wasnt expecting that. So, a fairly quick chat with the Prime Minister when he reappointed me, and, obviously, it was a privilege to be reappointed. But youve done six cabinetjobs, youve replaced three people who resigned, you resigned yourself from the cabinet. Do you have a sympathy for those people waiting for that call . The disappointed, the frustrated, the people who go through that reshuffle fever. Yeah, of course i do and its. For anyone its. It can be a very nervous day, and, quite literally, i think, a lot of mps are sitting by their phones and hoping it will ring, and ring for the right reasons, and, you know, ithink every reshuffle ive ever seen and youve probably, you know, studied more than i have, nick, but there will be some clear disappointments, therell be some prizes, some shocks, but, you know, a Prime Minister, whoever it is, they have to make these decisions, they have to pick their team and get on with the job and i think thats what happened. Youve come here pretty much straight from the first cabinet, the first new cabinet, so delivery� s clearly the word on everybody� s mind at the moment. Did you ever expect to be Health Secretary . After you quit as chancellor, there were all sorts ofjobs were mentioned for you. You were going to be his chief of staff, you were going to do this job or that. I dont think i ever heard it suggested you be Health Secretary, so did it come as a shock . I cant say i expected it. I mean, first of all, obviously, i was back on the backbenches, and i wasnt sitting there expecting to go back into cabinet any time soon, and i was making my most of my time on the backbenches and doing a lot of other stuff that otherwise i couldnt have done. But when, you know, matt got into trouble, there was speculation, i guess, then started, and i did get a couple of Phone Calls, just from friends, saying, look, you know, if matt doesnt stay, you might get the call, and so it did obviously get me thinking about it. And you had to think, is this me . Is this the sort ofjob i want to do . Yeah, i did, i did, but i didnt have to think about it for long, because by then, obviously, we all knew, the whole country knew that whats more important than health . What was your own early experience of using the nhs . Well, my first memory of the nhs is, actually, going with my mum to the Gp Surgery not because i was ill but because she needed someone to translate, and so those were my first memories, and i must have been about six, seven or eight. I can remember those times it happened many times. Fortunately, i havent been in hospital much, but only once. And i was eight, eight or nine. And i appendicitis, i was living in rochdale, and went to the hospital to, you know, have my appendix out. I remember it was just so painful. I remember and my dad carrying me around and trying to distract me, but it was so much pain, ambulance coming to get me. I dont really remember the operation and stuff. I remember, then, Coming Home a week or so later and then being told i had to go back to hospital again. And i thought, no, im feeling much better. Why do i have to go back again . And the reason i was given was that the hospital and the surgeons thought that they. It sounds funny even to say it now but they had. They couldnt find an instrument when they had, sort of, finished the operation, and they thought they might have left an instrument inside me, so they had to cut me open again to literally look to see if theyd left an instrument inside me, so probably wasnt the best possible experience one could have with the nhs but it was, you know, many decades ago. And it wasnt there, the instrument . It wasnt there it wasnt there. My brothers still. Youd think they could have done an X Ray or something i know, thats what i thought, and my Brother Stilljoke about it today and they say, oh, look, are you sure you havent got a pair of scissors inside you or something . Can i borrow them . Lets talk a little while about health, and about, of course, a little bit about covid, as well, but i want to begin with this extraordinary fact that youve had more seniorjobs than anybody since Winston Churchill. Do you sometimes feel like youre the, sort of, governments fix it man . Youre like the emergency plumber. Somebody resigns, call for sajid hes the Guy Youve replaced three people whove resigned. Maria miller, amber rudd, Matt Hancock. Theyre always calling for you to help out. Look, i, obviously ive done that under three Prime Ministers. I like to think they all called on me because they thought i could do a good job. Ive enjoyed each of those jobs and i think in each one ive got something done. It can sometimes be a bit frustrating. Really, yourejust getting going, some major reforms and things, and then you get moved, but that is the nature of our politics. Cos youve never had longer than two years in anyjob, i think im right in saying. I think thats probably right. Probably, yeah, Home Secretary was probably the longest. And the big, Big Decision that you had to take was this decision that the Job Youd really always dreamt of you loved economics, youd been very successful in the city, youd made a lot of money you were one of these guys who was, as it were, cut out to be chancellor of the exchequer, and you chose to quit it. Now, what was the Phone Call like to your mum on that occasion . Well, she already knew, of course, probably like the whole country. She was really surprised, and, actually, what she said to me was something similar that youve just said, which was, but sajid, i thought you always wanted this job, you know, you talked about what it would be like to be chancellor, you worked with the chancellor before and talked about how much you enjoyed that. But as soon as i explained it to her why and, you know, she understood immediately and completely agreed with me. Just to remind people, the row was that Dominic Cummings thought he should pick your advisors for you, that you wouldnt be able to decide who should be your advisor as chancellor of the exchequer. He then later tweeted that he tricked the Prime Minister into firing you. He actually wrote, if i hadnt tricked pm into firing saj, we would have hmt her Majestys Treasury With Useless Sos im afraid he means you spads, the advisors, no furlough scheme, total chaos, instead of a joint downing Street Team which was a big success. Thats his view. Hes like anyone else, hes entitled to his view. I think the. Had he tricked the Prime Minister, though . Well, no, thats what. Thats his view, thats what he thinks, but, look, if i look back to that time i dont really know really what was going on behind the scenes, all i can talk about is how i responded, but as for, you know, mr cummings, hes now not in government and, you know, ijust wish him all the best and, you know, im just getting on with myjob. You glad borisjohnson came to the same view of Dominic Cummings that you had . I think we probably share our views now, yeah. Have you talked about it . No. 0h, Go On no, no, we havent. Really . Theres no need to. Thats behind us. Thats, you know, were looking forward. Thats completely behind us. Well, lets look back a bit, way beyond that, the reason you wanted to be chancellor in the first place. You were a bit of a star of economics at school. One thing we didnt discuss last time i spoke to you was the fact that you were trading in stocks and shares at a very young age 14, is that right . Borrowing money from a friend of your dad in order to invest in the Stock Market . Well, i wouldnt quite call it trading. I was Buying Shares and trying to make a bit of money out of them and that was when, in the � 80s, we had the big privatisation programme, so i was, you know, a lot of Advertising Campaigns about Buying Shares, whether its British Gas or British Airways or bp or whatever. So it shouldnt have been tell sid, it should have been tell saj yeah, well, it could have been, actually, and i was listening to those adverts. And, actually, the first time, i remember, that i wanted to buy some of those shares, i didnt have any money my Dad Wasnt going to lend me any money so i actually called up my dads bank, which was barclays bank, because he had a shop then, and i said, mrjavid would like an appointment, knowing that they thought it would be my dad. I turn up at the appointment and the Bank Manager says, wheres your dad . And i said, actually, its this mrjavid, its me, and i explained to him i wanted to borrow £500 to buy some shares, and, obviously, he couldnt lend it to me i was a 14 year old but he felt sorry for me, and he said, ill have a word with your dad, and, cut a long story short, he basically persuaded my dad, saying that, you know, i think your son knows what hes doing here, it would be a good investment to let him borrow £500, and thats what i did. And youve described the pleasure you had finding yourself at home during the pandemic not really what you planned, but you had some pleasure. What about being on the back benches for that time . Was it desperately frustrating . You resigned as chancellorjust before the pandemic began without knowing, of course, that it was going to begin. Did you find yourself thinking, oh, god, i wish i was there, i want to take this decisions . Yeah, there was some frustration. Especially at the start of the pandemic, because we could all see unfolding on our Tv Screens and things just how desperate a situation it was for the country, Around The World. I had all this experience and i really wanted to help, but i couldnt, and, you know, there was all these Big Decisions to be made, and, obviously, my colleagues in government were working incredibly hard doing just that, but i found i was at home. You know, the biggest decision i was making was, whos cooking dinner and whats it going to be . But it was, you know. I accepted the situation and i tried to use that time constructively, as well as being able to do more in my constituency in bromsgrove, but also thinking about, you know, its a real, actual learning opportunity, and thats why i took up this senior fellowship with the harvard kennedy school. And at harvard you looked in part, i think, didnt you, at the lessons of the pandemic . Yeah. And the key lesson would be what, for a future pandemic . Well, iwould say, i mean, probably the key global lesson and this is going to be essential in the future is to have some kind of early warning systems, so that if somewhere in the world, like We Saw in wuhan at the start, something doesnt quite feel right, theres a lot of questions, theres a, sort of, a local epidemic, then those countries should have an obligation to report that, to seek help, and then also, i think, theres a role for the international community to respond to that. So maybe like an imf Type Emergency Response system for future outbreaks. And you used a words which you later apologised for about people not cowering from the virus and i know you didnt want to insult people whod lost Loved Ones but it seemed to me it revealed something inside you that thought there was a danger of us Living In Fear rather than living with it. Is that right . Do you think we did too often live cowering in fear . No, that was the wrong choice of word, and thats why i apologised for it, but what i meant by that is that no one should feel frightened of covid in the way we were in the early days because we have got vaccines, weve got testing, weve got surveillance, weve got treatments. And so its a way, actually, you want to reassure people that we have Tools Today that we didnt have even a year ago, and therefore we can start to return to a new normal. You know, things are going to quite be exactly like they were before, there were some things as a result of this pandemic, you know, whether its working from home, or things that wont return to exactly the way they were, and thats fine, but ijust want people to know that weve made a lot of progress together and we can keep it that way. No, that was the wrong choice of word, and thats why i apologised for it, but what i meant by that is that no one should feel frightened of covid in the way we were in the early days because we have got vaccines, weve got testing, weve got surveillance, weve got treatments. And so its a way, actually, you want to reassure people that we have Tools Today that we didnt have even a year ago, and therefore we can start to return to a new normal. You know, things are going to quite be exactly like they were before, there were some things as a result of this pandemic, you know, whether its working from home, or things that wont return to exactly the way they were, and thats fine, but ijust want people to know that weve made a lot of progress together and we can keep it that way. Weve talked quite a few times this week on various programmes, and it seemed to me you look happiest when you were telling people how they werent going to live under new restrictions. Now, in the past the Health Department was seen as the bit of government fighting, you know, be more cautious, have more restrictions, be more worried. Do you see it as part of yourjob, now, to say yep, take it seriously, have a plan for the worse, of course, but im someone who believes in dont put on restrictions if you dont have to, dont give government a role it doesnt to have. Myjob is not only to think about Covid I9, because i am not just the Covid I9 minister and what i mean by that . Festival, i am the health and social care secretary. Help, there is a lot more than Covid I9. Of course, Covid I9 is hugely important, it remains hugely important, but think about all those lockdowns we had, the social distancing and all of that and the other Health Problems are created, the huge increase in Mental Health problems. I mean, yesterday i was up in blackpool talking to the mental Health Trust there and the huge increase that theyve seen in all sorts of problems especially amongst young people but also the heart disease, that wasnt diagnosed, the huge increase in undiagnosed cancer, and so we have to look at it in the van. In this big speech he gave in blackpool this week he said Covid I9 was the disease of disparity. Now, that is partly poverty. Sometimes people say it is racism too. Does the differential impact on non white people of Covid I9 reflects structural racism, in your view . No, i dont think it is structural racism. I think there clearly is a disparity and the facts speak for themselves in terms of outcomes and how had Covid I9 hit certain communities and in that speech i talked about how if you look at people who either fell ill through Covid I9 or ended up in hospital sadly died there was a disproportionate impact on people from black and minority ethnic communities. But it was not racism . No, i think there can be many. I dont believe it is. I think there can be many reasons for that. So, for example, a disproportionate number of people from those communities work in Frontline Jobs so we may be more exposed to that, may be if you think about vaccine take up. Now, there is no racism, of course, in our vaccine plans. Everyone is eligible. Something else in the speech you talked about levelling up in health and getting the Health Outcomes of the people, reducing the gap in other words. Will that not in the end mean reducing economic inequality and using the power of the state and getting more money to councils and things that normally associated conservative governments with wanting to do . I still think it is early days for how best to do it when he talks about the Health Outcomes of covid and going back to the higher Cancer Rates in the higher Obesity Rates and addiction rates they are actually the same parts of the country and some of them havent even changed A Hundred years. I was in blackpool the other day, and there has been significant Health Disparity there going back 100 years and so i think there are, first of all, that to me means it must be addressed and it is not going to change overnight but there is a real structural problem and a true structural problem that needs to be addressed but also i think it will lead to better economic outcomes as well because it is also clear that your health. If you address it . If you are healthier, you will be happier to work, have more opportunities, i think it is a nice virtuous circle to have then if you can raise incomes, they are more likely to stay. I think you with a labour Health Secretary would say poverty as part of the reason we are committed to reducing poverty but there are other things a government can do. You are recommended not so many weeks ago before you became Health Secretary of a report commissioned by the government saying one of the big diseases of poverty, the city, the way to deal with it is a Salt And Sugar tax, get the rubbish out of our diet so much food that contributes to people getting Fat And Borisjohnson just dismissed it out of hand. Isnt that the sort of thing you should be doing . I am interested in what works. We have an Obesity Strategy that i have inherited and i am certainly when i come to prevention i want to take a fresh look at all areas of prevention, obesity is one of them. You know, Smoking Rates is another wonderful might make you know, Smoking Rates is another one of them. You would look at the strategy again, would you . This has got to be a huge part of what we do because when you look at some of these issues about obesity be are not performing well compared apparel countries and that is more than could be done and it is the kind of thing that once i am able tojust, sort of. At some time . Get a bit of a way of the real focus understandably at the start of My Newjob has been around pandemic and making some of those Big Decisions but in the background there is a lot of work going on especially around Health Disparities . Henry dimbleby might still get a hearing. Im going to be looking at all of that carefully. Understood. When you in this new cabinet describes what it wants to do sometimes you make your own party pretty nervous. Tax rises they hear of, bigger state, more nannying and they think what on earth has happened to the party of margaret thatcher. You once said you were a thatcherite before you are a conservative. Are you still . Is the party still . If you think about what we have just referred to that the announcement we will protect the nhs by making sure it has got the resources it needs to deal with a huge challenge, particularly the backlog, protecting our institutions, nhs, one of our most loved institutions, is very conservative. In doing it in a way where you are notjust going to be endlessly Borrowing And Borrowing to do that but doing it in a fiscally sustainable way is a very conservative way to do it. Put taxes up to pay for what you spend . But another way could have been to say were just going to keep borrowing this money every year, borrow 12 Billion a year for an indefinite period and that is. That is not fiscally responsible, it is not a conservative value to do it that way. Looking after the elderly, making sure that people know and giving incentives to say, thrift is a conservative way and that is what the new cap and social care will help achieve. If everyone knows the maximum cost they face in a lifetimes of 85,000 a year they can plan for that. So planning and saving for your future. Are you saying and it sounds like you are that to become a bit fashionable particularly on the right simply to associate Mrs Thatcher with with low taxes where is the unit was about what she used to call Sound Money, running the finances in a safe and secure way and therefore a tax rises actually thatcherite because it is about Sound Money . That is your way of putting it but i think Sound Money has always, long been a conservative principle. Protecting our institution is a conservative principle, encouraging people to plan financially for their own cancer, features conservative principle and thats what i can also completely understand if you want to see taxes lower than otherwise. When you run for leader, you yourself said i am a low Tax Conservative and said youre going to cut the top rate of tax. I am and my colleagues want to see taxes as low as they can be and as our economy recovers, as we start to see a strong recovery and stay that way and strongest recovery in the g7 next year as we recover, that economic growth i hope can allow us to reduce taxes in the future and that is a future decision for the chancellor and things butjust because we have had to make these things and decisions in the last few days and weeks about the nhs and how were going to support it doesnt mean to say we have given up on making sure taxes are as low as possible. Other things now every day as Health Secretary are there things now every day as Health Secretary where you are saying the data come and warnings at other times when it is hard to sleep at night because she thinks i so hope that wouldnt happen because that would be really grim . Frankly i dont have a Problem Sleeping but i know what you mean. I learn a lot and in thisjob, this particularjob i have now, understanding, especially on the pandemic, there are things that have already been moments where you learn something and you think while, how are we going to deal with that . I give you an example i have talked about publicly. They could be a vaccine escaped variance at some point and that is a risk of the world. If that happens, as it sounds, you know, our current Vaccines Work will be changed things and it will take time so what we do in the meantime . And that is something that would concern any Health Minister Around The World because of things we have seen this impact of covid safe the things that are just so uncertain what we have to plan in the very best way that we can. When you see these ambulances having to queue up outside scottish hospitals where cases are gone faster, there must be a danger that that happens in england under your watch too . Look, we are entering Autumn And Winter and notjust Covid I9, flu and viruses love that time of year and lets hope that we can all remember times when there was no Covid I9 and we would still have a big challenge for the nhs in the winter. So that it is very much at the top of your mind and working with my colleagues and nhs making sure you have got the support they need. That could happen in england, queues outside a e, ambulances having. I hope not but it is myjob to make sure it doesnt but that means working really well and closely with my nhs colleagues, making sure that they have notjust the funding but especially longer term that we are making reforms that are necessary as well. Are you nostalgic for the life you gave up voluntarily . You didnt need to do it. You had a lot of big jobs, plenty of money. Are you ever nostalgic for the time your back with your family at Home World being about what to cut . No, im really pleased with this job because this is one of the most consequent skilled jobs you can have in government and the public Sector Today and i really feel privileged that it is myjob and i can contribute in this way. You told us you did some serious work, some studying, if you like. Did you do anything in the pandemic . Did you learn to bake or learn a language of the piano or a Box Set of your favourite . Star trek, was there a chance to. I didnt watch much star trek. I did watch a lot of other Box Sets and i did cook a lot more, especially curries. Not much baking and certainly a lot of cooking and pasta, one or two really good Pasta Dishes which my children actually want me to cook it again but i havent been able to do it for 12 weeks now so i managed to do things that i didnt think i would find time for, of course. I dont think you will have time for a while. Thank you very much forjoining me on political thinking. What makes Sajid Javid such an important member of borisjohnson� s cabinet is that in many ways he embodies the tension, the contradiction, in two wings of conservativism. 0n the one hand, he came into politics as a thatcherite, a man who believed in a small state and lower taxes and lower spending, on the other, he now presides over a department in which his conclusion is more has to be done to reduce inequality, more has to be done to deal with what he calls the disease of disparity. How he, how the Prime Minister to resolve those tensions, will settle the shape of politics. For many years to come. That is it for this edition of political thinking. Thanks for watching. Hello there. Yesterday, We Saw top temperatures of 25 celsius in some places, warm September Sunshine using its way through the course of the day, different feel to the weather, outbreaks of rain working their way west to east, still sunshine around and dry and us later on into the afternoon. We got this line of rain that, as it pushes into eastern england, was quite heavy for a yorkshire down towards kent, some local Ice Water Flooding for a time the 3040 local Ice Water Flooding for a time the 30 a0 millimetres of rain, thunderstorms mixed in as well, heavy showers for the far North East and particularly for 0rkney. Elsewhere, sunshine developing, lifting temperatures to between 1520 C Lifting temperatures to between 15 20 c are not as warm as recent days were not bad for this time of year. Then sticking with this area of rain. A soggy night for some. Then clear spells and a cooler, fresher night than weve seen recently with temperatures down into single figures to start your monday morning. The first half of this week ahead, looking quite dry. Things change from Military Converts are starting to see low pressure, wetter, windier conditions later in the week ahead. Eventually turning more autumnal but as we start, low pressure to the north of the uk, High Pressure to the south and south west, so that keep mostly dry with High Pressure raining out. Then lingering for a time. Then east anglia, southeast, more Clout Working in from the North West later on but in between, most places having some sunshine around in temperatures round about 15 21 c during the day on monday. Into tuesday, early Mist And Fog patches are likely once again with them slowing and clearing the way with winds picking up on the North West ahead of the next front trying to move its way in but not a bad day on tuesday with highs around 16 2i Celsius minutes from whence they are none into thursday we see this change so Weather Front starting to move on from the North West and make their way across the uk and i North Westerly breeze left behind on Thursday Afternoon after those Weather Fronts passed through, Thursday Afternoon after those weatherfronts passed through, so still some unsettled weather on the cards through the second half of the week, particularly in the north and North West, things looking drier further south. Good buy. North west, things looking drier furthersouth. Good buy. North west, things looking drier further south. Good buy. Goodbye. Hello. This is Bbc News with victoria derbyshire. Here are the headlines from the uk and Around The World. The chance of a shot. England and tottenham footballing legend Jimmy Greaves has died at the age of 81. The british government will hold further talks with the Energy Regulator amid soaring Gas Prices with warnings more companies could go bust. We are not being complacent about this at all. The clear message that i want to give to people is that we do not see the risks of supplies right now and prices are being protected. The Foreign Secretary has defended the uks Security Pact with the us and australia, despite an increasing diplomatic row with france. Splashdown the first all amateur Space Crew to orbit the earth has safely returned after their three day mission