Now on Bbc News hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, im Stephen Sackur Today on the shores of Italys Lake Como at the ambrosetti forum, where some of europes leading politicians have gathered to talk politics and economics. The global Covid Pandemic and intensifying superpower rivalries all present the eu with some very difficult questions. My Guest Today is spains first deputy Prime Minister, nadia calvino. Is europe too divided, too inward looking to shape the 21st century . Deputy Prime Minister nadia calvino, welcome to hardtalk. Its a pleasure to be here. I think i have to start by talking afghanistan. The us led withdrawal from the country it looked chaotic, it was very difficult. What lessons do you think the European Union must learn from what happened . Well, for months weve been listening to the Defence Minister in spain warning us about the situation in afghanistan, but i think to all of us, it was a shock. Frankly, it was quite unexpected, you know, that there would be such a fast development. Because the americans hadnt consulted with European Allies . Well, im not informed about the different consultations that may have taken place, but i think we were all surprised about the rhythm of these developments and the tragic developments. There are two things that i would highlight from the European Response. The first one is actually positive. I think we have responded quite fast in trying to evacuate our population in the country, but also those persons that were cooperating with us for decades. Spain has been particularly efficient, ithink, in bringing the people back. We offered to be the hub to take all the citizens and the afghan citizens, cooperating with the eu, and to treat them in an efficient and in a Human Manner when they arrived. And i think that should make us proud. But my second reflection goes in the direction, i think, of what you intend to put the question about, which is, we have to reflect, you know, on how to be more prepared for the realities in the world and to reflect on our role on a geopolitical sphere. Yes in essence, do you need more strategic independence from the united states . Let me quote to you, jana puglierin, whos a Security Expert at the European Council on foreign relations, quote the Afghan Mission has forcefully demonstrated to the europeans just how much they depend on american capabilities. Is that tenable going forward . Well, i think that a serious reflection will have to take place about these issues. And high representative, vice president borrell, has already put on the table the issue of the defence, European Defence force, European Defence policy. Just this morning, we heard commissioner gentiloni also putting this issue on the table. Im sure we will need to reflect on that. Until now, we have focused very much on the humanitarian reaction, which is i think what was needed. But with respect, europe has been reflecting on this for many, many years. I mean, its years since Emmanuel Macron talked about the need for european strategic autonomy. Your own top military official in spain, teodoro lopez calderon, he said recently that the Eus Dependence on the us has been, quote, absolute. The bloc, he said, must develop a Military Force to be a relevant player. If not, it will never be one. I mean, this is language we have heard for years. Nothing has been done. Im quite convinced that things will move forward in a different mannerfrom now on. Spain has been supporting the reinforcement of the European Capabilities worldwide. This probably has been a Wake Up Call that will, i think, you know, facilitate progress on these areas, not only within the eu. We need to also build our cooperation and capabilities, taking into account the role of nato and, of course, other important partners, such as the uk. One key challenge, where europe definitely needs a coherent, unified response, and you alluded to it already when we talked afghanistan, is immigration policy. There are now fears that thousands and thousands more immigrants will try to head towards europe from afghanistan. You in spain, as you said, have tried to take the lead. Youve established your own country as a hub for incoming afghan migrants. But theres a desperate lack of unity in europe, isnt there . Yet again, i do see progress on this front. I have to say, i was working at the eu, actually, when we had the Migration Crisis in 2015 16. And i think there is more unity now than there was then. And there is an increased awareness of the need to take a united approach. I think theres an increased awareness that those countries that are the southern border are not protecting their own borders, but the borders of the eu. And we need a Coherent Approach to migration. Again, you know, spain has been at the forefront in trying to have this Coherent Approach. Not, erm, responding actively in terms of our borders and in a manner which is coherent with our values, with the european values. But we definitely think there should be fast progress also in having a coherent migration strategy. Right, but while spain has focused on the need to step up and to burden share, the austrians, for example, have said by way of their government, quote illegal immigration that runs through dozens of safe states where migrants could choose a destination country, this sort of movement into europe has to be stopped. There is no reason, says the interior minister, why an afghan citizen should come to austria now. The focus in many European Countries is on building higher fences, biggerfortifications against all immigrants rather than Burden Sharing and trying to responsibly take refugees in. These are very complex issues which, you know, are perceived in a very different manner by the population in the different member states. Absolutely. And that explains why. Why nothing ever really gets done in terms of a common policy . Well, i wouldnt put it that way. I wouldnt put it that way. As i said a moment ago, i think that progress has been made and there is that dialogue taking place, i think, in a very different atmosphere to what it was some years ago. Now, pretending that this is going to be or that everybody has a similar approach, you know, would not respond to reality or to be realistic going forward when we engage in this discussion. Im just interested to know, as a senior politician in a government in europe, how mindful do you have to be of the dangers if you try, as your government has done, to make a positive contribution to taking afghan refugees . How mindful do you have to be of your own far right wing . The vox party, for example, in spain in recent years has made major gains by playing on peoples fears of immigration. Well, two remarks on this. This is a very interesting Issue And One that i think is a serious concern when were thinking about the whole of europe, not particularly spain because my first reflection would be that, luckily, i am very proud of that, actually, the vast majority of the Spanish Population is extremely open and extremely, lets say, positive, when it comes to helping others. Maybe because our country has been an Immigration Country for decades, maybe because the population has a different approach to these kind of issues. So, so far, the vast majority of the Spanish Population is quite supportive. Now, on the other hand and vox, despite the fact that they have become a politicalforce in recent years, have not really made this the central issue in theircampaign. And anyway, that argument has not been the central argument, if you wish, that has driven voters to join them, according to the polls, and to the results throughout the whole country. So, from this point of view, i think spain continues to be a beacon in the sense of protecting our European Principles and values. But this is indeed an issue that is obviously a concern when it comes, not only to europe, but to other countries alike. I have to say, this kind of dialogue was also very much behind maybe even brexit, you know, in the case of the uk. And it has been for many years the leading kind of speech on the other side of the atlantic. So, it is a concern that we have to be aware of. And what youve done as a group, if i may say so, is youve paid billions of euros to turkey in recent years to try and get the turks to act as the doorkeeper to europe and ensure that the people who Reach Turkey Never Cross The Sea and get into the European Union. Now, is that a sustainable policy going forward . The turks are already saying we need much more Money And Assistance from europe if we are to continue to do this. Well, generally from a Development Policy Point of view and humanitarian Assistance Point of view, all experts i have encountered throughout my career recommend that people stay as close as possible to their home. So from this point of view, it does make sense to try to have people moving to countries which are nearby the one theyre exiting from. That, i dont think is. I think thats actually quite logical. Different issue is how to articulate our different circles, you know, around europe and around our countries in order to make sure that we face a challenge, this migration challenge, which is not going to stop, which is due to many different reasons and is taking place throughout the whole world. Let me take a different sort of area of Difficulty And Challenge for the eu, and again, ask about coherence and unity. Its something which, as Economics Minister in spain, youve had to deal very closely with. That is the response to the Covid I9 pandemic. Do you believe that europes citizens have seen in the European Union, a truly sort of urgent, coordinated, efficient response to the Covid Challenge . Im very happy to respond, yes. See, surveys suggest that, actually, most europeans dont see it that way. There was a major survey done by the European Council on foreign relations. It found what they described as a stuttering Eu Vaccine Roll out had dealt a blow to public confidence in the unions capabilities. And that included a 52 result in spain, saying that they felt the Eu Project looked broken on covid. Im not aware of those polls, and i dont know when that polling, the exercise the underlying data, was gathered. That doesnt respond at all, doesnt reflect at all what i read in the media, what i sense in citizens and particularly not in spain. I think the European Response to this crisis, which has been very challenging on the Health Front and on the economic and financialfront, has been very different to previous crises of a very different nature. This is an unprecedented situation and generally citizens see that we have been able to step up our vaccination rhythm. In spain, we reached 70 of the population this week, which has been an important milestone, i think. And generally on the economic and financialfront, we have taken decisions in a fast and effective manner. Well, why did spain have the deepest contraction last year in all of the European Union, if Spains Response was so efficient . Well, i mean, the second quarter of last year, i think was quite an outlier in terms of economic evolution. No question, for all countries. But spain was the worst performer in the European Union, 11 contraction. Yes. Why . Well, mostly because of the weight of those sectors that had to be locked down, that had to be closed or stopped due to the pandemic, in order to stop the spread of the pandemic. I think the weight of the Tourism And Hospitality sector in spain is larger than in other countries and that explains why the contraction was stronger. Also, maybe the recovery is being much stronger than in other countries, actually. The outlook is very positive for the second part of the year. Well, i know the Growth Figures look much, much better for the coming year. But if youre in spain and youre unemployed, particularly if youre young and unemployed, you probably take what you just said with a pinch of salt, because, frankly, structural unemployment, particularly for the young, is a problem that predates covid, covid made worse, and theres no sign that youre really able to tackle it. Well, thank you very much for pointing that out, because Unemployment And Youth unemployment is the number one problem that weve been trying to tackle. Unfortunately, you know, the crisis has obviously halted any progress on that. My point is that right now it doesnt seem like you have real solutions. Well, i wouldnt agree at all to what you just said. First of all, this week we had positive news on the Labour Market in spain in august. We have recovered more or less the employment that had been lost due to covid, and, in particular, Youth Unemployment figures are lower than what they were pre covid. Moreover, we have a Recovery Plan which includes important Structural Reforms and investments with a top priority, which is indeed to reduce unemployment, to reduce Youth Unemployment, and to have a stronger and more sustainable growth going forward. Interesting that you talk about the reforms now. Spain, of course, like all eu countries, will qualify and is qualifying for major funds, recovery funds, from brussels as a result of the coordinated response to the covid crisis. I think youre entitled to about 140 Billion euros� worth of which youve said youre definitely going to take the grants that is the money that doesnt come as loans, for 70 billion. I dont know if youre going to take it all. But conditionality is part of that. The brussels institutions are demanding that you make your economy more flexible. And in other countries, like poland and hungary, they are putting other conditions, like they have to improve their record on a freejudiciary, a free press. Their values have to be in line with brussels. Do you think this conditionality is going to cause real divisions inside the European Union . Our aim is to mobilise this 140 Billion. We have. All of it . Yes, in the coming six years its 2021 to 2026. So it will add to your national debt, which is well over 100 of gdp. Well, in the short run, between 2021 to 2023, were mobilising mostly the grant because were front loading the investment and the reforms with a view to precisely having a different recovery. You know, one that is green, digital, also fairer, and try to avoid the mistakes maybe we have made from the recovery from the financial crisis, which took much longer and in some instances had not really been fully recovered by the time Covid Hit us. But you in spain are prepared to accept the conditionality . I was coming to that, precisely. I would definitely not call this conditionality. For the last three years since we took Office Injune 2018, we have had a Road Map of Structural Reforms future looking Structural Reforms. And this Road Map can now be accelerated and deepened thanks to this Recovery Plan, thanks to the funds that will come to support our investment and the reforms. You know, this entire interview is really about whether the eu is in a position to offer global leadership. One other key area is climate change. Now, the eu has big commitments and promises that its made, you know, to decarbonise by 2050. Ambitious programmes. But, actually, if you dig down into what individual eu countries are committing to, it gets very complicated, and there seems to be division. Can you convince me that europe has a common position . To me, its absolutely clear that the eu will be one of the leaders of this climate agenda. The Green New Deal is probably the most ambitious throughout the world. Were very, i think, aware of the need to undertake these changes in the coming decades. We have no time to lose if we think about the young, future generations. From this point of view, also, spain is strongly committed, so we have to ensure. Spain is, but what about poland, for example . Its refused to sign up to some of the big commitments made from brussels. No, actually, i think that, you know, what we have seen in the last couple of years is, and in the context of these Recovery Plans, and when we are talking about investment in the transition in order to make it a fair transition, i do think that poland and other countries that have been very reluctant are definitely making progress. Well, unless you know more than i do, the poles have simply refused to sign up to the Net Zero by 2050 commitment. They just wont accept it. Well, there are a number of programmes that are going on, a number of negotiations, and they will have to, you know, we will have to find a way to bring them on board. But thats my point. Poland, slovakia, bulgaria, romania, czech republic, hungary all of these countries have expressed deep scepticism about some of the targets, not all, but some of the targets the European Commission is setting. In this context, how, with cop26 coming up before the end of the year, how can you tell me that the eu is showing real leadership . The eu is showing leadership in terms of the ambition of the goals, in terms of the instruments that are being put in place to support those goals. And also the concern that this is not only a technological transition, but also a fair transition. We need to bring citizens together with us in this transition, which changes many parts of our growth model. I think there is a strong determination on the side of the european institutions. Spain is fully committed and very supportive of this ambition. We definitely have to get there because future generations are not going to be understanding that we do not do the right things in the coming decades to leave them a better world. Let me ask you about the dynamics of politics in spain. You still have, it seems, a real problem with catalonia. In the last regional elections, i think the catalan independence, Pro Nationalist independence party, they actually won a majority. You want this issue to go away, but it persistently refuses to so whats the sanchez Governments Vision for how to solve it . Its not only a vision, its what we have been doing for the last three years. I think we all remember, probably, in 2017, there was this moment of very strong tension i would say even a breach of the catalan society, you know, a conflict on the streets. I think that if theres one Message Id like to leave is, we dont want to go back to that kind of no way street, you know . No solution. We need to base the relationship within our country on citizens talking to each other, understanding each other, respecting each other, starting with catalans talking to other catalans. I have to say, in the last three years, i think weve made enormous progress because the situation on the streets and the atmosphere in catalonia has greatly improved. We are working very hard to actually improve the situation and to ensure that this strong recovery that the country is going to have is reaching the whole country, including, of course, the citizens of catalonia. Right, but the basic Problem Hasnt gone away. The acting president of the catalan region said recently, we have an immense strength now to achieve a referendum and the catalan republic. Are you, at some point, going to accept that hes right, and that the catalan people have the right to a referendum on their own future . Well, the catalan people vote every time theres an election. And the Spanish Constitution is very clear about what is the framework for the way. Im sorry, but they organised a referendum, you declared it illegal. You simply will not allow them a referendum on independence. Well, i think what i want to be clear about is we will do and act always within the legal framework, which is our constitution. And so, of course, we will not accept any illegal actions going forward, such as the ones that took place three years ago. Thats why i think we have made such a good, long way in improving the situation in catalonia, because despite statements that you may read, you know, the reality is that there is an intense dialogue, an increased participation of the institutions of catalonia within the institutions of state. Actually, the parties that are in the government in catalonia also supporting the government of spain. Therefore, i do think we have proven that our strategy, which was this do not look back, but look forward and having a positive agenda for the whole country and for catalonia, included in spain. This positive agenda is the one that should drive us going forward. A final thought going back to the very beginning, europe and its strategic vision. We see a united states which perhaps is more inward looking. We see a china which has a very expansive strategic ambition. Do you think in this world of intensified superpower rivalries that the European Union is capable of projecting real Power And Influence . Two comments on that. And is this your final question . So, that would be my final remark. This morning in the debates we had here in cernobbio, there was a lot of talk about the role of europe and where we have to be in the world. I would like to say two things to that. First of all, i do think that we have a power. We are an economic and a commercial power, and we have a voice in the world. Definitely, you know, the more united we are, we will be stronger going forward. The world is changing, its challenging but, you know, ithink the eu is adjusting. In any case, will have to adjust to keep this role going in the world. But my second reflection is that, you know, despite the fact that many times we look at our weaknesses, actually, europe is a beacon for the rest of the world. A beacon of rights, a beacon of protection of minorities, a beacon in terms of equal rights for women. It is why is europe attracting so many persons, and is an inspiration for so many parts of the world . I think we should be proud also of those elements that maybe are less visible in terms of. You talked about defence, you talked about power, i think we also have to continue to reinforce those elements that i think make us different in terms of our Development Model and have made us a success for decades. Nadia calvino, i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank you. Very quiet on the Weather Front out there right now and quite warm too, after a hot tuesday for some of us. Heres a reminder of the temperatures we had on tuesday in a selection of places. These are the hotspots up to 31 degrees in one or two spots in wales, close to 30 in many other areas, for example, across the midlands. And wednesday is going to be another hot one, with tons of sunshine on the way. But we are starting to see a breakdown of this sunny weather in the far southwest of the uk. Theres just the possibility of some showers early in the morning in cornwall, maybe even the Odd Crack of thunder. But for many of us, its sunshine right from The Word Go and warm 17 degrees in the morning. Now, the reason the weathers going to be changing over the next 2a hours or so is this low pressure which is approaching us. In fact, you can see itjust on the bottom of the screen there. Showers and thunderstorms are expected to creep, gently creep into southwestern parts of england and wales. They wont make much progress during the course of wednesday. In fact, by the afternoon, theyre just into southern wales, just across the west country, maybe a shower possible in northern ireland. But look at the weather across the rest of the uk hot and sunny. I wouldnt be surprised if temperatures hit 30 degrees once again on wednesday. Now, even through the evening on wednesday, you can see these showers just about moving a bit further north into the midlands, into central, southern england, many of us remaining dry. But a risk of downpours certainly possible, and that risk will continue into thursday because this low pressure will come closer. Its going to park itself over us. The winds will be light in the centre of this low pressure, and that means that these showers circling the low will be slow moving, so the possibility of long lasting downpours and even some Flash Flooding across parts of wales and england. Some eastern areas may escape the worst of the showers. And here, still a little bit of warmth left, maybe 2a in hull, 25 in norwich, but out towards the west, were talking about temperatures maybe not even making 20 celsius on thursday. So the hot spell will come to an end on thursday for all of us. And you can see in the outlook the temperatures come the weekend will be barely making 20 degrees across many parts of the uk. Thats it from me. Bye bye. This is Bbc News. Im Sally Bundock with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. In afghanistan, the taliban have announced their new government. There are no women in the cabinet, and the new Prime Minister is being sanctioned by the united nations. Hundreds, including many women, took to the streets of the capital, in protest. This is the biggest challenge to the Talibans Authority that weve seen so far, and its not coming from a militia force. Its coming from peaceful protesters, from both women and men. Frances biggest ever criminal trial starts today of those accused of involvement in the November 2015 paris attacks, which left 130 people dead and hundreds more injured