Political thinking. A national tragedy, shameful, a staggering failure. Written� s biggest foreign Policy Failure since it was, that is how magas and political thinking this week has described a withdrawal from afghanistan. He is Tom Tugan had, former soldier, former advisor to helmand province, former advisor to the chief of the defence staff. He is now chief of the foreign Affairs Committee of the house of commons. This is the series in which i have conversations with, not interrogations of, those who shape our political thinking, about what shapes their background, their values, their background, their values, their lives, behind politics. It was precisely that that led mps to lead to him to speak in total silence as he spoke in the commons with his struggles with anger, grief, and rage as he is watched events events unfold In Kabul. He is watched events events unfold In Kabul. Ive been to funerals from unfold In Kabul. Ive been to funerals from poole unfold In Kabul. Ive been to funerals from poole to funerals from poole to dunblane. Ive watched good men go into the earth, taking with them a part of me, and a part of all of us. And this week has torn open some of those wounds, left them raw and left us all hurting. Left them raw and left us all hurtinu. ,. , , hurting. Tom tugendhat, welcome to politicalthinking. Hurting. Tom tugendhat, welcome to politicalthinking. Thank to politicalthinking. Thank ou. To politicalthinking. Thank yom nice to politicalthinking. Thank you. Nice to to politicalthinking. Thank you. Nice to see to politicalthinking. Thank you. Nice to see you. To politicalthinking. Thank you. Nice to see you. Havei to politicalthinking. Thank you. Nice to see you. Have you had much you. Nice to see you. Have you had much sleep you. Nice to see you. Have you had much sleep since you. Nice to see you. Have you had much sleep since those had much sleep since those events In Kabul . Had much sleep since those events In Kabul . No, i havent. Ive not events In Kabul . No, i havent. Ive got one events In Kabul . No, i havent. Ive got one of events In Kabul . No, i havent. Ive got one of these events In Kabul . No, i havent. Ive got one of these Trackers L ive got one of these trackers on my phone and ive noticed that my sleep has sort of gone to an average of seven, seven and a half hours, to something like Three Orfour and a half hours, to something like three or four hours on average for the last three weeks. An feels a bit like being back on operations, actually, there is a network of retired officers and soldiers trying to help those we know who are in such a desperate need and so its been pretty full on. , , full on. Full on because you must be full on. Full on because you must be getting full on. Full on because you must be getting texts full on. Full on because you must be getting texts and l must be getting texts and E Mails and messages saying get me out, help. Emails and messages saying get me out. Help me out, help. Yes. They got a hone me out, help. Yes. They got a Phone Call me out, help. Yes. They got a Phone Call at me out, help. Yes. They got a Phone Call at two me out, help. Yes. They got a Phone Call at two oclock me out, help. Yes. They got a Phone Call at two oclock in i Phone Call at two oclock in the morning this morning from a group of individuals who are stuck on a border and these are not people a no, but somehow they got my number. And they said get me out, open the border. I said said get me out, open the border. Isaid i said get me out, open the border. I said I Cant, said get me out, open the border. Isaid I Cant, i said get me out, open the border. I said I Cant, I Cant order the Border Guards to do that. They dont have that authority. I Cant Order the embassy, the High Commission to give them papers. The Home Office has a say, the Security Services have a say, the Foreign Secretary has a say. All these decisions they can push, but I Cantjust give an order. And its. You know, its. As the old line goes, are used to say go and they went and i said come and they came, but now all i do is a shout like a voice in the Wilderness. Shout like a voice in the Wilderness. That is the big difference Wilderness. That is the big difference about Wilderness. That is the big difference about being Wilderness. That is the big difference about being a I Difference about being a soldier are now being a politician and a backbench politician. You Cant Force Anything to happen. Do you feel anything to happen. Do you feel a sort of personal responsibility that you owe these people . Responsibility that you owe these eole . , , these people . Yes. Yes, deeply, deel these people . Yes. Yes, deeply, deeply personal these people . Yes. Yes, deeply, deeply personal. You these people . Yes. Yes, deeply, deeply personal. You know, deeply personal. You know, these are people ive fought with. These are people who ricks everything alongside me and others and even those i dont know i know that they fought with, i know them. These arent foreigners. These are much more. Arent foreigners. These are much more arent foreigners. These are much more. � ,. , much more. And is that why you talked so movingly, much more. And is that why you talked so movingly, and much more. And is that why you talked so movingly, and it much more. And is that why you talked so movingly, and it was l talked so movingly, and it was clear that you were moved, let alone the people watching you in the house of commons, listening to you about Shame And Anger and grief. I. Listening to you about Shame And Anger and grief. And anger and grief. I. Its funn , and anger and grief. I. Its funny. Ive and anger and grief. I. Its funny, ive spoken and anger and grief. I. Its funny, ive spoken to and anger and grief. I. Its funny, ive spoken to a and anger and grief. I. Its funny, ive spoken to a loss| and anger and grief. I. Its l funny, ive spoken to a loss of veterans recently, for obvious reasons, and a lot of people, after a made that speech, have got in touch, quite literally thousands from the United States in the uk and other countries. And the feeling of shame is pretty universal. Its really striking to me how. For me it was almost therapeutic, you know, you are not alone. You say these things and the Wilderness and youve no idea whether or not they will find echoes. What struck me is how many of us felt the same. Serving officers, retired officers, serving soldiers, retired soldiers, british, american, french. You name it. You talked of watching good men go into the earth, taking a part of me, a part of all of us, and it could have been you. The taliban tried more than once to kill you. Once to kill you. Yes, they did. It could once to kill you. Yes, they did. It could have once to kill you. Yes, they did. It could have been. It| did. It could have been. It wasnt. And, indeed, people around you were killed when the taliban tried to assassinate you. Taliban tried to assassinate ou. Taliban tried to assassinate ou. ,. , taliban tried to assassinate ou. ,. ,. , taliban tried to assassinate ou. ,. , you. Yes. I lost a few people. I want to you. Yes. I lost a few people. I want to ask you. Yes. I lost a few people. I want to ask you you. Yes. I lost a few people. I want to ask you a you. Yes. I lost a few people. I want to ask you a difficult i i want to ask you a difficult question. Are you to close . Does all this mean you speak with passion, you speak with authority, we should listen, but some would say too close to this, its too personal . Its but some would say too close to this, its too personal . This, its too personal . Its a fair question. This, its too personal . Its a fair question. I this, its too personal . Its a fair question. I can this, its too personal . Its a l fair question. I can understand that question. But am i too close to the nhs because they rely on it . Absolutely. For the protection of my family. Am i too close to the Welfare Policies in the united kingdom because i rely on its completely for the protection that my family, my friends might rely on the people ive served with often do rely on, many people i know, am i too close to the transport policies that we vote for because eye and many other people rely on notjust and many other people rely on not just the train and many other people rely on notjust the train to run on time, but also the change from petrol to green energy, whatever it is. I mean, the nature of democratic politics, if you have a democracy, is that youve got people who are, by definition, close to this and if you dont want to actually voting for is an aristotle see, people who are remote, who are separate. And they accept what you are saying, and i constantly need to ask myself, and are constantly do ask myself, am i wrong . Have over invested . Am i throwing good money after bad. You say you have had to ask yourself, even on so little sleep, even in the heat, if you have got it wrong. Is there a possibility that the argument that was made, for many years, by many people, that afghanistan could never be quelled, it could never be governed safely and securely, then they will always write for 20 years . Then they will always write for 20 ears . , 20 years . You see, i dont buy that. 20 years . You see, i dont buy that and 20 years . You see, i dont buy that. And history 20 years . You see, i dont buy that. And history of that. And History Of Afghanistan suggest that aint so. There were long periods where afghanistan was governed pence peacefully under the late king and his father. You know, many people, i dont know whether you the betrayal. Ha. Whether you the betrayal. No. Hibi mu. Whether you the betrayal. No. Hibi trail. | whether you the betrayal. No. Hibi trail. I dont whether you the betrayal. No. Hibi trail. I dont suppose l hibi trail. I dont suppose they had hibi trail. I dont suppose they had manchester hibi trail. I dont suppose they had Manchester United | hibi trail. I dont suppose i they had Manchester United Van Schotts then, they probably do now. It was a well governed peaceful place, women and girls were to school and university, civil servants and so on. It was an interesting and relatively prosperous country. The main argument it seems that Joe Biden is making as president is, look, the Status Quo Wasnt really an option. The idea that you have promoted, the idea that Tony Blair has promoted, which is why notjust Carry On with a couple of thousand troops, almost no casualties for several years, just keep going, it was unrealistic, because the taliban would have seen that as a Declaration Of War after the 20th anniversary of 9 11, given the Donald Trump had made a deal to get out, given thatJoe Biden was the politician who promised american people he would get out. So there was only one option to get out all reinforce and possibly send in more troops. Reinforce and possibly send in more troope more troops. See, i dont buy that this more troops. See, i dont buy that this was more troops. See, i dont buy that this was very more troops. See, i dont buy that this was very well that this was very well signposted in advance, as you say, Notjust Biden but also trump and also obama, who said the deadline, the first departure date, way back when. So you are right, this was very clearly signposted but that doesnt mean its right. If you look at the Troop Numbers you say is a serious trip commitment. The, you know, one soldier in a country can be a serious trip commitment, depending on what they are doing. In this case it was 2500 us troops, that is about half the crew of the Us Air Force carrier. ,. ,. , carrier. You have spoken to lots of people carrier. You have spoken to lots of people in carrier. You have spoken to l lots of people in washington, dc, ive no doubt to get your mind around what is in his mind, the biden argument seems to be it wasnt going to stay at 2500. If he had said we are staying, the taliban would have said it thats fine, were going to attack your troops, british troops, and you will then be forced to send many more people back in. More people back in. Thats assuming more people back in. Thats assuming british more people back in. Thats assuming british troops more people back in. Thats assuming british troops and american troops were doing the kind of operations that would allow that to happen, which is simply not so. The afghan armed forces, whether they be police or ana, afghan national army, were the ones conducting operations. What we were doing is we were the enablement, so supporting the air movements, supporting the air movements, supporting air supporting logistics. And all that was being done basically by two relatively isolated airbases in kandahar and relatively isolated airbases in Kandaharand Bagram relatively isolated airbases in Kandahar And Bagram with huge amounts of Stand Up and thousands of contractors who would stay if the us stayed. So thats not a valid argument. The other argument you and others have made, which biden took on, specifically, when he spoke to the nation a few days ago, is the idea that this is like a career or its like germany after World War ii. The idea that we could stay for decades and with heart far higher Troop Numbers that we have in afghanistan korea. Because those were no longer hot wars, they were effectively over. , hot wars, they were effectively over. ,. ,. , hot wars, they were effectively over. ,. ,. , over. Oh, really . You would say that south over. Oh, really . You would say that South Korea over. Oh, really . You would say that South Korea in over. Oh, really . You would say that South Korea in the over. Oh, really . You would say that South Korea in the early that South Korea in the early 19705 was no longer a hot war . I think there are plenty of people will who would disagree youre looking at what was going on across the other side of the parallel. And really wonder whether that was so and you would have looked at the South Korean government at that time and you would have said this is a basket case. Its run by a bunch of military dictators, its economy is below that of afghanistan, roughly equivalent of congo, will it ever rise again, will it ever prosper . Now look at it, it is one of the worlds economies, one of the worlds economies, one of the worlds economies, one of the worlds great democracies, is exporting not just phones and cars to the industrial world, just phones and cars to the industrialworld, but just phones and cars to the industrial world, but also culture, innovation commerce. Its an extraordinary success story, South Korea. Its an extraordinary success story, South Korea. Yes, but there will story, South Korea. Yes, but there will be story, South Korea. Yes, but there will be people story, South Korea. Yes, but| there will be people watching this, listening to this would so you can say that about dozens of countries. {iii so you can say that about dozens of countries. Of course Ou Dozens of countries. Of course you could dozens of countries. Of course you could we dozens of countries. Of course you could. We dont you could. We dont intervene there, you could. We dont intervene there. We you could. We dont intervene there, we dont you could. We dont intervene there, we dont invade you could. We dont intervene there, we dont invade the, i you could. We dont intervene | there, we dont invade the, we dont occupy, we dont keep our troops in harms way, why afghanistan . Troops in harms way, why afghanistan . Because thats where 9m Afghanistan . Because thats where 9 11 happened. Afghanistan . Because thats where 9 11 happened. You i afghanistan . Because thats i where 9 11 happened. You dont choose history. History chooses you. More people were killed from these islands in that single incident than any other terrorist incident. This was an incident when globalisation came to bite us and it came from there. And we had a choice, we didnt have to react, but we did, as nato, it is our only article five deployment, the only time we have done the musketeer All For One And one for all, article five plates, and we stood together and we did it. Youre right, we didnt have to do it, but we were there and we went anywhere else pledge. We but we were there and we went anywhere else pledge. We now have to, anywhere else pledge. We now have to. You anywhere else pledge. We now have to, you have anywhere else pledge. We now have to, you have to anywhere else pledge. We now have to, you have to do anywhere else pledge. We now have to, you have to do with have to, you have to do with the fact that president biden, a democrat, argued against it and got his way, that the republicans largely agree with him, even though the criticism was the way he has done it. What does this mean without relationship with the United States was not i was upwey froese use the other day describing america as a line that was too sweet slipped quietly in its bed. What you mean . �. , quietly in its bed. What you mean . �. Quietly in its bed. What you mean . � ,. , quietly in its bed. What you mean . �. , mean . America is one of the most extraordinary mean . America is one of the most extraordinary achievements of humanity. It has managed to harness, through ideals, ideas and innovations and cultures from people around the world into an extraordinary republic. And that has given It Strength beyond anybody� s imagining in cultural, military, economic terms. It is an extraordinary place. But. But, as you rightly say, as the song goes, from Sea To Shining sea, it has the extraordinary luxury of having two great nations on either side into macro neighbours who are, broadly speaking, extremely friendly. That a luxury that allows some people to have the illusion that they can sleep quietly in their beds without thinking about others. Does this mean that we have to relook at the whole of our Foreign Policy based on a close relationship with the United States, really much of a sense World War ii, ever since churchill . It World War ii, ever since churchill . World war ii, ever since churchill . ,. ,. , churchill . It does mean we have to look again. Churchill . It does mean we have to look again, but churchill . It does mean we have to look again, but dont churchill . It does mean we have to look again, but dont think. To look again, but dont think we should delude ourselves or be defeatist that this is american isolationism, is not isolationism, but it is certainly a moment where america, as you rightly say, under the last three president s, and actually, had it not been for 9 11, probably the last four president s, would have had a roughly similar trajectory of gradual withdrawal from the world. The conventional wisdom is that politicians have misted up and there is such sympathy with soldiers and former soldiers, and people not critical with the military, but is it reasonable to say that the British Military out there, in Southern Iraq and in libya, and in fact there has not been a real British Military is for an awfully long time . I real British Military is for an awfully long time . Real British Military is for an awfully long time . I mean, i will not tally awfully long time . I mean, i will not tally there awfully long time . I mean, i will not tally there were awfully long time . I mean, i will not tally there were no | will not tally there were no military mistakes, there were plenty and, you know, i can start from the top and work down if you like. I have to be honest, i am guilty of plenty mistakes myself. Which i have to live with that. Military mistakes was a low well, decisions i took that were wrong and mistakes have consequences. One is a live with and revisit . Once i revisit and i dont want to don the past but im conscious of my errors. The past but im conscious of my errors the past but im conscious of m errors. ,. ,. , my errors. There are people who sa it my errors. There are people who say it should my errors. There are people who say it should have my errors. There are people who say it should have been my errors. There are people who say it should have been obvious| say it should have been obvious then and it was potentially obvious then that there was only a political solution and effectively they would have to be a deal done one day with the taliban. ,. ,. , be a deal done one day with the taliban. ,. , , taliban. You always say this, nick and taliban. You always say this, nick and that taliban. You always say this, nick and that there taliban. You always say this, nick and that there is taliban. You always say this, nick and that there is no nick and that there is no Military Solution but there is what you think the taliban have done . That is a Military Solution. They invaded kabul. It is done. That is a Military Solution. What you are not willing to say is that there was emmet another Military Solution which was to support a very slow Military Operation and what they will do with the reverse of what we did. They are going to say we will stay on as long as it takes to build and islamic emirate and we will use force, and we will use violence, to make sure you comply until it is so second nature we do not need to anymore. Nature we do not need to anymore nature we do not need to an more. A. ,. ,~ , nature we do not need to an more. A. , anymore. As long as it takes is interesting anymore. As long as it takes is interesting because anymore. As long as it takes is interesting because in anymore. As long as it takes is interesting because in your interesting because in your speech in the house of commons, you talked again and again about patients. Is that in the round, is that what you think is missing in western democracy, a willingness to do this with ten, 20, 30, a0 years. This with ten, 20, 30, 40 ears. This with ten, 20, 30, 40 ears. ,. ,. , years. This is the South Korea oint, years. This is the South Korea point. The years. This is the South Korea point, the germany years. This is the South Korea point, the germany point, years. This is the South Korea| point, the germany point, the cyprus point, we have had troops on the ground in cyprus since the 60s, keeping the Green Line the un operation, those two warring parties apart and peaceful. Is that a Forever War . No, it is not. It is a forever piece by piece takes time and investment and commitment, in the same time as you would not describe as police on the streets as a forever riot. People pullet policing. You call it keeping the peace. That is what it is. And our trips would not do that. They were supporting others. Others. This was the first Test Ofthe others. This was the first test of the phrase, others. This was the first test of the phrase, and others. This was the first test of the phrase, and you others. This was the first test of the phrase, and you were l others. This was the first Test I of the phrase, and you were on the select committee, of global return. How is it looking now . I dont object to the phrase, i just dont know what it means. There is nothing wrong with the phrase. Fine. But what is behind it . Phrase. Fine. But what is behind it . | phrase. Fine. But what is behind it . I do phrase. Fine. But what isj behind it . I do not phrase. Fine. But what is behind it . I do not fear behind it . Very . I do not fear it means behind it . Very . I do not fear it means anything behind it . Very . I do not fear it means anything behind it . Very . I do not fear it means anything do behind it . Very . I do not fear it means anything do you | it means anything do you fear it . Well, it could be. The first attempt at explaining it is immigration review. It brings together theory, and Military Policy. Bud brings together theory, and Military Policy Military Policy. And it mentions Military Policy. And it mentions the Military Policy. And it l mentions the education Military Policy. And it mentions the education of Military Policy. And it mentions the education of women and girls as a priority, half a dozen times, mentions the afghanistan twice, and the biggest reversal of education of women and girls is the fall of women and girls is the fall of afghanistan. Of women and girls is the fall of afghanistan. What about the forei. N of afghanistan. What about the Foreign Office of afghanistan. What about the Foreign Office as of afghanistan. What about the Foreign Office as an Foreign Office as an institution. What is going wrong for the Foreign Office . That is a really big question because it is quite clear that, you know, winning lift up the bonnet of the rolls royce, im not sure what the engine is but it wasnt made in commentary, to use your analogy, they may be wearing Red Shirts but they are not your team. Bud be wearing Red Shirts but they are not your team. Be wearing Red Shirts but they are not your team. And its not even in the are not your team. And its not even in the manchester are not your team. And its not even in the Manchester United| even in the Manchester United anymore. Even in the premier league, it is not the Foreign Office. I league, it is not the Foreign Office. , league, it is not the Foreign Office. Office. I can list High Commissioners office. I can list High Commissioners and. Office. I can list High Commissioners and ambassadors and extraordinary capable people who are genuinely World Class and fantastic but when you see secure documents, or rather personal information, left in the embassy In Kabul, when you see the Senior Civil Servant remain on holiday at the moment of extraordinary Foreign Policy crisis, you wonder what matters to you . What is it that drives you . If you forgive me. What is it that drives you . If| you forgive me. Politicians, most politicians you forgive me. Politicians, most politicians have you forgive me. Politicians, most politicians have not most politicians have not dedicated 30 years of their lives to a single institution, Grown Up through it and taken on its values and orthodoxy and to me more shocking is the us Foreign Secretary. In to me more shocking is the us Foreign Secretary. Foreign secretary. In other words, Foreign Secretary. In other words. The Foreign Secretary. In other words, the senior Foreign Secretary. In other words, the senior official. L Foreign Secretary. In other i words, the senior official. Can ou words, the senior official. Can you imagine. Words, the senior official. Can you imagine, can words, the senior official. Can you imagine, can you words, the senior official. Can you imagine, can you imagine, ina battle, you imagine, can you imagine, in a battle, The General not coming back . It is unthinkable. It is completely unthinkable. In fact, voltaire made a joke about it, not sure if you remember it. About it, not sure if you remember it. M remember it. Reminds me. About admiral being. Remember it. Reminds me. About admiral being, in remember it. Reminds me. About admiral being, in 1760, remember it. Reminds me. About admiral being, in 1760, was i remember it. Reminds me. About admiral being, in 1760, was it, i admiral being, in 1760, was it, he did not show enough guts when fighting the french and i think it was hanged and the joke that voltaire said was that it was to encourage the others i that it was to encourage the others . ,. , ,. , others if that applies to the top seven others if that applies to the top seven of others if that applies to the top seven of the others if that applies to the top seven of the civil others if that applies to the | top seven of the Civil Service, surely it applies to everybody and when you were quizzing your colleagues,. Irate and when you were quizzing your colleagues,. Colleagues,. We were on holidays colleagues,. We were on holidays and colleagues,. We were on holidays and when colleagues,. We were on holidays and when this i holidays and when this happened, that was it, i was doing 20 hour days. Happened, that was it, i was doing 20 hour days. There is a sense of somehow doing 20 hour days. There is a sense of somehow this doing 20 hour days. There is a sense of somehow this is i sense of somehow this is personal between you and Dominic Raab, you gave the speech and it was heard in silence and when he wound up the debate it is traditional for ministers to praise the good speakers on their own side and there was not a word, you were not mentioned. Many others were. I were not mentioned. Many others were. ,. , were. I had texted him earlier and apologised were. I had texted him earlier and apologised i were. I had texted him earlier and apologised i would i were. I had texted him earlier and apologised i would not i were. I had texted him earlier and apologised i would not be there for the windups so when you would not be there. I dont think it was personal. As you know nick, ive given a pretty high time to three Foreign Secretary is now and i hope i am respectful of the office and individuals. I think Dominic Raabis individuals. I think Dominic Raab is a highly intelligent man who has demonstrated some very good judgement on some areas and on other areas, its myjob challenge him. If they went that Challenge Function it would not be good for democracy. Would not be good for democra. ,. ,. , democracy. Imagined you had challenge democracy. Imagined you had challenge previous democracy. Imagined you had. Challenge previous secretaries, not least Boris Johnson, challenge previous secretaries, not least borisjohnson, you clashed repeatedly when he was Foreign Secretary. Bud clashed repeatedly when he was Foreign Secretary. Foreign secretary. And that is m ob Foreign Secretary. And that is my job said Foreign Secretary. And that is my job said interesting i my job said interesting thins, my job said interesting things, use my job said interesting things, use of my job said interesting things, use of that . I my job said interesting i things, use of that . Does not translate into Foreign Policy. Trust me, it doesnt. Do you mean literally . Zero speak of how many languages . fir mean literally . Zero speak of how many languages . Or seven. I mean, how many languages . Or seven. I mean. How many languages . Or seven. I mean. Six how many languages . Or seven. I mean. Six or how many languages . Or seven. I mean, six or seven. How many languages . Or seven. I mean, six or seven. So how many languages . Or seven. I mean, six or seven. So a i mean, six or seven. So a Boris Johnson mean, six or seven. So a Boris Johnson that mean, six or seven. So a Boris Johnson that gets i mean, six or seven. So a Boris Johnson that gets a i mean, six or seven. So al Boris Johnson that gets a Bag Borisjohnson that gets a bag from people who dont like him as well as those who do, may work in that way to reduce tension at home but does not abroad. I tension at home but does not abroad. , � ~ 3 tension at home but does not abroad. , � ~ � ,. , abroad. I dont think its an extraordinary abroad. I dont think its an extraordinary thing abroad. I dont think its an extraordinary thing to i abroad. I dont think its an extraordinary thing to say i abroad. I dont think its an i extraordinary thing to say that boris has a remarkable ability to communicate at home, it really is phenomenal and in a way he is a political alchemist and he has a fantastic ability to carry a message and get an image that sticks with people. But the reality is languages work differently. Cultures work differently and its really hard to translate in joke. Speak half a dozen languages, a former soldier and spent a lot of time abroad and i think many think why are you in government . Think why are you in rovernment . � ,. , government . Because they are teams and government . Because they are teams and prime government . Because they are teams and Prime Ministers i government . Because they are l teams and Prime Ministers need people around them they work well with an politics is personal. You need to get on with the team around you. You could never with the team around you. You could never serve with the team around you. You could never serve borisjohnson because you fill out when you were around him. Irate because you fill out when you were around him. Were around him. We get on perfectly were around him. We get on perfectly well were around him. We get on perfectly well when were around him. We get on perfectly well when with i were around him. We get on | perfectly well when with Each Other and text Each Other and we have been texting and working with Each Other over crisis and i have to say, im not going to say that i think everything is gone brilliantly. You know i dont think that. I have to say that there are some really impressive moments of Response And Decision making by the government that have resulted in a significantly better outcome that may have been the case many of us feared weeks ago. Im not universally critical. Uncritical on the areas where i am charged by parliament to run the Challenge Function. That is what i do. Looked just for a second there that Boris Johnson looked just for a second there that borisjohnson did a good job but you bring yourself to do it. ,. , ~ ~ job but you bring yourself to do it you i do it. Look, ithink. You think his do it. Look, ithink. You think his method do it. Look, ithink. You think his method up, i do it. Look, ithink. You| think his method up, dont do it. Look, ithink. You think his method up, dont you . I think its done a good job in some areas but messed it up. My some areas but messed it up. My problem with those questions in this role now, is i am a conservative and i fundamentally believe in conservative values and championed those as best i can about myjob is not to be a cheerleader for the government because then it compromises my ability to work across government in my role as chairman. Government in my role as Chairman Government in my role as chairman. ,. , chairman. Final question, you talked about chairman. Final question, you talked about this chairman. Final question, you talked about this phone i chairman. Final question, you talked about this Phone Call. Talked about this Phone Call you had and so many in recent weeks and the fear i can imagine you have is that people are are a bit weary of talking about afghanistan, regardless of what is right or wrong. Do you have hope you can keep attention of the government and the people and the Civil Service of the people you want to help . Service of the people you want to hel . , service of the people you want to hel . , , to help . The reality is afghanistan to help . The reality is afghanistan is to help . The reality is afghanistan is over. L to help . The reality is. Afghanistan is over. We to help . The reality is afghanistan is over. We were defeated politically, because we chose to walk away, so it is over. We are now into the second phase which is how do we best protect those most vulnerable to revenge attacks because they are currently standing by in our hour of need. I dont think this government is weary of that and by the Way Something im very proud of this government for. It turned around immediately and you could argue whether 20,000 is the right number or 30,000 is the right number but it never argued about the principal. It never said no, it never argued about the principal. It neversaid no, no i dont want forested nerves. It said we have the responsibility i do not want foreigners. And the british people have demonstrated the level of desire to support afghans who are in need. So i dont think it is going to be weary in that sense but i do think im afraid it is over. Tom Tugendhat Chair on the front Affairs Committee in the house of commons, thank you for joining us me on political thinking. I have a suspicion, not even tom tugendhat� s friends, families or cheerleaders are waiting to hear whether he has a job in Borisjohnsons Government because that perhaps makes him even more powerful when he criticises them. He has nothing that he wants from them and very little that he fears. Thanks for watching. Hello. Sunnier, warmer weather on the way with september likely to top august in the temperature stakes. In the month of august, the high temperature was 27. 2 degrees celsius. This week, were expecting 29, maybe even 30. It is unusual for september to outdo august when it comes to the top temperature. And the warmth gets under way in england and wales for sunday, helped by a more generous helping of sunshine than of late, but wetter for some perhaps in scotland and northern ireland. Very slowly, High Pressure moving away, atlantic Weather Fronts coming in. That will bring a bit of rain, slowly spreading east during the day. Good morning. Welcome to breakfast with Ben Thompson and luxmy gopal. Our Headlines Today the future funding of social care. Talks have been taking place this weekend ahead of a major announcement but some conservative mps are warning against tax rises. Prince charles� s former aide steps down from his Charity Role after allegations he used his influence to help secure an honourfor a major donor. Almost 50 shops a day have disappeared from our high streets but the rate of closures has begun to slow. Scotland edge closer to World Cup qualification. A first Half Goal from Lyndon Dykes was enough to clinch all three