Divisions to do it. It is worth actually reminding ourselves that the law actually only applies to the top two divisions. Below that, there are many grounds with what you might call traditional terraces that have safety certificates. So it would be wrong to assume the old style terraces, if i could use that language, are unsafe. They are not. What is proposed here for the top two divisions is a better and more sensible way of doing it. You have got purpose designed accommodation to allow people to stand in safety. 0k, malcolm, thank you very much for joining us today. Great britain have added seven gold medals to their tally on day five of the Paralympic Games in tokyo including an historic Wheelchair Rugby victory, and yet another title on the Athletics Track for hannah cockroft. Our correspondent Andy Swiss reports from tokyo. It has become one of british sports most gloriously familiar sights. Hannah cockcroft has never lost a race at the paralympics and while her Team Mate briefly threatened, Soon Cockcroft was doing what she always does. Its a new world record. Is six Paralympian Title for a who prepared for the heat of tokyo in a Plastic Greenhouse in her home in cheshire. We got up to 45 celsius one day. Our hottest day has been 44 celsius. It worked pretty well. At times it felt stupid. It felt so silly to be doing it but here we are and it has worked. Maybe that is a secret. Others though were On The Road to redemption. After a Mistake Cost her gold in rio, Lara Steadman nearly retired. She will be glad you did not. Triumph in the triathlon and the biggest smile in tokyo. Lawrence whiteley celebrated his 30th birthday by retaining his double sculls title. The mixed coxed four also took gold. In thejudo, meanwhile, there was gold for chris kelly, the World Number one living up to his billing. There was one spot above all at the paralympics that makes an impact. Wheelchair rugby has been described by one former player as chess with violence. Britain had never previously won a medal in it. Powering their way to victory and to history. A golden moment for british Para Sport on another golden day. Now its time for a look at the weather with darren bett. Very quiet weather here across the uk, a lot of cloud coming our way for the next few days. That cloud coming in off the north sea. Sunnier skies across wales in the south west. More sunshine in Central Scotland that could come south. Where you get the Sunshine Temperatures will reach 22 degrees. Under the cloud it is 18, i9 temperatures will reach 22 degrees. Under the cloud it is 18, 19 degrees and still a bit dull and damp in the North East of england where it is quite a bit cooler than that. Overnight tonight the cloud may lower onto the hills of Northern England and into scotland as well. Some breaks in the cloud for a while but it comes back in overnight. Where we have the clearer skies for longer it will turn a little chilly out by the morning. Tomorrow, many of us will see cloud covering the sky. Some Sunshine Western Parts of wales, south western england. It could develop and in parts of scotland. Temperatures 20 degrees but in the damp weather in south East Scotland and parts of and it will be cooler. Now on Bbc News, hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. The African Elephant is an endangered species. In the case of the forest elephant, Critically Endangered. That is the result of decades of poaching, but it reflects a wider problem too. In the battle for space and resources, wildlife is in a losing fight with humanity in many parts of africa. My Guest Today is paula kahumbu, kenyan conservationist, campaigner and broadcaster. Shes trying to make conservation africas common cause. So how is she doing . Paula kahumbu In Nairobi, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you so much, stephen. I really appreciate being invited to speak here. It is a pleasure to have you on the show. You, of course, for decades, have been a conservationist and a wildlife advocate. After all of those years, do you think you are winning . I think we are winning on some fronts. For sure, there is some progress, but i would say that overall, we are in Big Trouble and sadly, most people dont appreciate just how serious it is. Do kenyans want to hear your message, do you think . I mean, you are a very successful broadcaster and your Wildlife Shows are actually well watched, right across the continent of africa. But i wonder if you, after all these years, are getting a little cynical about whether or not kenyans want to hear it . I think it depends on which kenyans you are talking about i when i started my Tv Series many years ago, people told me that it was hopeless, that kenyans do not care about nature and wildlife, they cared about the food on their plates. Actually, our Tv Series is one of the most successful in the continent and in kenya alone, 51 of people watch our show, so we know that there is broad public interest, and a big part of it is because there is not that much Wildlife Content on Television Anywhere in the continent, and especially content thats made by ourselves for our own audiences. There is nothing, really, apart from what we are producing. It is making a difference . I think so. I believe there is a massive shift in consciousness here in kenya. When we organise events and rally people together, thousands of people participate more than 50 of kenyans in the city of nairobi say they want to volunteer for nature but i would say the problem and the challenge we have is not at the level of the mass public, that the challenge is winning the hearts and minds of the political leadership, Notjust In Kenya but across the whole continent. I was very struck and it relates to something you just said very struck by something you said to the new Yorker Magazine not to long ago. You said, conservation is not seen as something black kenyans do. In this country it is a white thing. Do you think you have changed that . Yes, notjust me there are plenty of amazing young african scientists and conservationists who are singing the same hymn. I think that this is a big part of our colonial legacy. Think about it Wildlife And Conservation stem from the Hunting Background and during colonial days, the only people who were allowed to hunt legally were the colonial overlords. When things changed and hunting was banned, those same people became the conservationists and them and their future generations are all some of the most fierce conservationists on the continent. But africans, back in colonial days, were considered poachers and until today, it seems like that is still the picture or the image that people feel about it and so, you know, telling people that it is ok for africans to be conservationists, it means really bucking a trend and saying, hang on on a second. Its notjust white people who do conservation and doing Conservation Isnt about going backwards. When i started, i was actually told by colleagues of mine that they would fight for me in government to prevent them from sending me to the bush to do research, because they thought that was a very backward thing to do in those days. That we came from the bush, why would you go back there . So there is a lot of change that has happened in the last few decades but we still have quite a bit of work to do. Ijust wonder, to get personalfor a second, whether that applied to your own family. Your mum is white but your dad is a black kenyan and i wonder, frankly, if either of them thought it was inappropriate for you to forgo a City Career in Nairobi And Head to the bush as fast as you possibly could . Funnily enough, it was my mum who thought that going to work in the bush would be dangerous and not something that girls do. It wasnt about the colour of my skin, it was girls dont do that. My father was much more easygoing and he thought it was very exciting that i was working in rural areas, in the country, in the wild, sometimes for months on end by myself. He thought that was fantastic. The dangers are real and i think my mother was right to be cautious, but my parents were very encouraging and my family in general, very encouraging. You ultimately went came through the ranks of different conservation organisations, some government, some non governmental in kenya, and you ended up working closely with Richard Leakey in his Wildlife Organisation and you and he launched this campaign, hands off our elephants, which caused an enormous stir going back, what, seven years or so in kenya. Why did you focus so heavily on the elephant . Both richard and i had a background in elephants i did my phd on elephants so i had the expertise and the academic basis for this. I we had both worked for government trying to fight and prevent the reopening of the ivory trade. So the Re Emergence of this problem was something that was very close to both of us. I mean, he was the one who launched the first ban of ivory way back in 1989. Elephants was something that we felt, if we were going to go into campaigning, this was going to be the best species to start with. But also, we felt that we needed to really maybe smash this perception that the elephants were fine, that everything was ok, when it wasnt. We knew from people on the ground that there were big problems. And if elephants are being gunned down across the country, well, you can be sure those guns were being used on other species as well its just that elephants are the easiest to see because nobody can carry away a whole carcass of an elephant. And so, we felt that we had to start with elephants, but it was not for the sake of elephants alone, it was to launch a new approach, which was campaigning for wildlife in africa. Going back to that opening thought about whether youre in a positive trajectory or not, it is tempting to try to find the positives and see in the Elephant Story, particularly in kenya, something very positive. I think from a low of around 18,000 elephants, youre now back to something like 30,000. The government claims victory against the poachers. The number of poachers, they say, that are being prosecuted is way down, simply because much less poaching is happening in the country. So would you send a message to the world, saying elephants in kenya represents what we can achieve when we really work together as conservationists, as politicians, as Law Enforcers to get serious about conservation . Absolutely, and it wasnt easy, though. I mean, the government initially werent interested in hearing there was a problem and so, we had to learn how to communicate and bring on board the different government agencies. Stopping the poaching meant dealing with the police, the kenyan wildlife service, the airports, seaports, road authorities, all kinds of different partners, including international organisations. I would say that that Challenge Fighting poaching and the trafficking of ivory was easy, compared to the kind of challenges were facing now. 0ur Enemies now are very difficult people to wrap your hands around. They are people producing food. How do you call that person an enemy . You cant commit a person to jail, right . So the challenge is so much more difficult. And thats why its so much more important that we actually win hearts and minds about nature, but we also address things from the highest level. The Land Use Strategy of my country is not aligned to the Conservation Strategy and thats why were seeing megafarms in conservation. Ah, well, but what youre saying is so interesting because Ijust Wonder if in any way you regret the degree to which you have held out the sort of hand of Friendship And Alliance to the political leadership in your country . You know, kenyans, more than anybody else will remember that you were friendly with the president s wife as you launched this campaign. You were so pleased when the president undertook that Photo Opportunity and burned hundreds of tonnes of ivory in front of the tv cameras. In a sense, youve helped him deliver a message that he and his government are true carers about conservation and maybe that isnt quite The Truth . Well, look, i dont have any regrets. I have no regrets. And i also dont have any permanent friends or permanent enemies in this business we have to work with what we have. The president of kenya has gone out publicly, internationally, and stated his commitment for this country. He was at the United Nations General Assembly last year and he said that kenya had made some very bad decisions. He said we are developing our country at the cost of the environment and that is not sustainable. And he made a commitment that kenya would end the extinction of species within ten years by making sure that its not business as usual, but that all businesses have to align themselves to sustainability. Now, the problem is, when you go down the ranks to all the various agencies whether its roads and Transport Infrastructure, industry, agriculture were not seeing that message getting picked up. And thats really where, i think, we have a challenge. And thats a lot to do with our systems, the priority with which environment is listed in our Budget And Decision making. The fact that the Big Four which is the president s big Development Agenda doesnt include environment is a big problem for me. Crosstalk. If i may stop you there, thats the very point im trying to make you have a President And Government in kenya who are committed to long Term Growth through industrialisation in your country. And industrialisation, as he sees it, is prioritising infrastructure, new roads and rail, new Energy Supplies all of these initiatives which are threatening those wild spaces which you have spent your whole career trying to protect. So isnt it time you spoke out long and loud against the priorities and strategy of your own government . Yes, absolutely. And i totally i totally agree with you. We do have to speak out and we have to speak out with a unified voice. And the message cannot be that we dont have development. That is not a message that is going to win any support anywhere in africa, frankly. We have to find a solution that serves both the development aspirations of kenya and african countries, as well as the survival of our countries. Because when i say we are trying to save and preserve these wilderness areas, it is notjust because i love the beetles and the butterflies and the trees. No, these are the Life Support systems, this is the source of fresh water, the source of soil, pollinators, the Water Services that all of these ecosystems provide. Crosstalk. I understand that sort of holistic approach, but i would understand kenyans who remember, that, for example, you opposed the new Rail Line that went through Nairobi National Park and you said it was a terrible mistake, you opposed a big Hotel Development proposed for the national park, which you said was a terrible mistake, you opposed again, a high Profile Music Festival in one of the national parks, you said it was a terrible mistake all of these things are actuallyjobs generators and economic growth generators. Your average kenyan might be interested in that than in protecting the butterflies . What i am saying is, we do need to have those things, we just dont need them inside our protected areas. Our protected areas are called protected areas because they are meant to be protecting the Wildlife And Nature inside them. I think the government is making very serious mistakes by putting railways, power lines, pipelines, roads into our national parks. I will continue to shout and scream from the mountain tops about that. The parties, the raves and the concerts inside the protected areas, by speaking out about that has got me into so much trouble, I Cant tell you. I am actually banned from the national parks right now, because i took the government to court on that issue. As a result, the General Public got to know that vultures in kenya are Critically Endangered and putting a concert inside this area was going to contribute to that problem. Are you really banned . I tried to check out whether you are truly, officially banned and a lot of officials in kenya where a little confused by this claim of yours. Are you sure, as one of kenyas most famous conservationists, youre barred and banned from going to any national park . Yeah, there was a public Game Count In Nairobi national park just last week, and i was listed as one of the volunteers. I got a call at 8 00pm and i was told, you will not be allowed into the park if you come. So we advise you not to come because you are going to embarrass the Team Youll be working with. This is the kind of thing that sadly happens in my country, they wont put it in writing, they wont make it public, they will humiliate you, they will in a way, send a message to Anyone Else who also dares to challenge the system. You know, the idea of building hotels inside this same national park they were doing a Game Count in, its contrary. And they know it, and they dont want me to see whats happening. The structures are already being built inside the national parks. Sorry to interrupt, isnt the problem here, you want wildlife to roam free and to pursue their Migration Routes around kenya and neighbouring countries as if no borders existed, as if Transport Infrastructure wasnt necessary. But The Truth is, without fences and without barriers, it is impossible to see how you can have completely peaceful and happy coexistence between humans and wild animals across kenya and, indeed, large parts of africa . No, no, no, its very simple, we just fence the people in, dont fence the animals in. Is that what your people in kenya really want to hear, that they should be fenced in and the animal should be allowed to roam free across millions of hectares . Youd be amazed at how many people have put their land aside for conservation. 160 landowners have created conservation areas, doubling the Real Estate for conservation in the last ten yea rs. This is not small, this is significant areas of land that are now set aside by people who are not rich. Why are they doing it . Because they have a strong, traditional, cultural connection to the land and the animals on it. They want to maintain their lifestyle of pastoralism. This is something the government should be grabbing with both hands. By securing this land you are securing carbon, Water Sources and water sheds, youre securing biodiversity. That is the Asset And Opportunity we need to grab. Yes, we need all the development, but development doesnt have to destroy the protected areas. Let me tell you a story from My Hardtalk on the Road Visit to zimbabwe a couple of years ago. I went to hwange national park, one of the most successful Elephant Conservation areas in all of africa. There are now up to almost 40,000 elephants, there are too many elephants. And when they suffered a terrible drought there, the elephants roamed far and wide, beyond the national park, they went into villages, ate crops and trampled to death several villagers. I heard from those local people that they couldnt tolerate this invasion of the elephants. And that, particularly at a time when climate change is challenging so much of africas farming, is going to be a very long Term Challenge . Absolutely. These challenges are not without their solutions. Yes, we will have problems, we have malaria, we have so many other challenges and we will not solve any of them overnight. But if you go to central kenya, go to laikipia county, you will see amazing initiatives where landowners are taking down the fences between each other, to allow the animals to return to their traditional migratory routes. I think that is something really hopeful and wonderful that that is happening in the country and the Wildlife Numbers in that county are increasing. In other areas, where you have human Habitation Right up against conservation, you will have a problem. So you have to have Buffer Zones and you have to have corridors. In central kenya, they have created a very simple system of fences that are designed to funnel the elephant so they can cross the road safely and move between two great mountains, the aberdares and mount kenya, without going into anybody� s farms. Its just simple and logical. If you understand the animals, you can work with them and what they want to do. I really dont think its rocket science, i just think it takes a little bit of commitment, some money and some good people with good ideas. We talked earlier about your attitude to the Powers That Be in politics, what about business as well . Im very mindful in the last month and over the last several years, a number of very active conservationists in kenya have been threatened, intimidated and in several cases, murdered. The police have neverfound the culprits, but it seems very credible they were murdered for their activism and their determination to try to halt development in virgin, natural areas. Do you feel yourself to be at risk . Yes, i do. I think many of us are at risk. It is dangerous to speak out in a country where your work, although it is aligned to national priorities, it is not really protected by the police service. So, yes, i do think my life could be at risk. I wont say i have been threatened recently, i have in the past. Injuly, im guessing what happened injuly gave you pause whenjoanna stutchbury, a long term conservationist, she was determined to try and halt development in a Wetland Area in Kiambu Forest national park, she was murdered. As far as i am aware, the Police Investigation has uncovered no suspects, no culprit. Theres certainly been nobody held to account. Do you think there is a Law Enforcement Problem here, a Commitment Problem from those in power . You know, i tried to find out what the status of the investigation is. Im ashamed to say there is nothing to show for the investigation. I think, like so many of these things, if theyre not investigated very quickly and if Action Isnt taken straight away, all the leads go cold. It would be such a Shame Ifjoanna died in vain. There is a group of us working very hard to maintain her name and her legacy, by securing that forest and creating a memorial to her that all children, there will even be a book for children to help them understand this. We dont want people to be silenced by fear that somebody could come and gun you down in broad daylight and there will be no repercussions. We want people to be bold and courageous and fight for whats right. That is the only way we are going to save what is left of this incredible Bio Diversity that kenya has. The pessimist would say the fight is over and its too late, the fight is lost. Your great mentor from your early days, Richard Leakey, he says he doesnt see much prospect of kenyan wildlife surviving beyond 2050. What a depressing and bleak prospect, do you share it . No, i dont share that view. I think richard has his reasons for his beliefs, and dont forget, he has also believed in the past that things were beyond repair. Perhaps his reasons are the ones we have already touched upon, that the government is committed to an Industrialisation Growth first strategy, that the population of kenya, currently over 50 Million is projected to reach more than 90 Million by 2050. I mean, these are just very basic facts which might mean there is no room for the wildlife that you have spent your life trying to defend and conserve . Yeah, i actually dont believe that. I think the protected areas are secure. We have to defend them, we will have to work at that. But i think the success will be in how we prevent them from becoming islands. That we actually ensure that every protected area has a buffer zone, has a community of people who are working to support it and are benefiting from that support. And these protected areas are connected because our wildlife is migratory. And weve seen amazing changes, we have seen history turned back. The Elephant Story is such a good example. Why not gazelles, giraffes, lions, cheetahs . They can come back, all of them can come back. So long as we maintain and secure the Real Estate they need and maintain those habitats. To me, the problem is so simple that it is so frustrating that people cannot see it and wont invest in it. Were not talking about a heritage that is just kenyan. This is a global heritage. Kenya has more antelope species than any other country in the world. It shouldntjust be kenyans struggling on our own. We need help. Paula, with your passion and your positivity, were going to end the interview right there. Thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk, thank you. Thank you. This is Bbc News with the latest headlines. Two us officials have told the Reuters News Agency theyve carried out a Military Strike in the afghanistan capital kabul. 20 years after being sent in the last british troops have left afghanistan the evacuation in the wake of the taliban taking charge is over. The effort has been frankly truly humbling to see the hours worked, you know, the exhaustion painted on peoples faces. So we tried our best. Forecasters warn a storm approaching louisiana could be more powerful than Hurricane Katrina which devastated New Orleans 16 years ago. Dilemma for doctors a severe shortage of Test Tubes in the uk means patients needing urgent Blood Tests could face delays. Great britain claims a historic first paralympic medal in Wheelchair Rugby, after storming to gold with a superb win over three time champions the united states