To dateline london. Im martine croxall. This week, we discuss the Unfolding Tragedy in afghanistan and we ask do Extinction Rebellion� s two weeks of disruptive demonstrations here in London Help or hinder the response to the Climate Crisis . Our guests, the Frenchjournalist And Commentator marc roche, the North American Broadcaster And Writerjeffrey kofman and with me in the studio, still suitably distance, is the bbc� s chief environment correspondentjustin rowlatt. Now, justin covered afghanistan for almost four years of course as the bbc� s South Asia correspondent. He was in a Mortar Attack by the taliban, so he is well placed to talk to us about the events of this week. Welcome to all of you. And so lets start with that then, shall we . On thursday, a Suicide Bomb Attack at Kabul Airport targeted people desperate to flee the country after the taliban takeover. 90 people were killed, mostly afghan civilians, and 13 us military personnel. A local branch of islamic state called is K Or Isis k said they carried out that attack. Throughout the week, about 100,000 people were evacuated but thousands more have been left behind. There is a huge Refugee Crisis in the making and a possible humanitarian disaster in afghanistan as money runs out and food disappears. It couldnt be much worse, or could it . Justin, lets start with you. You know afghanistan well. You used to be in contact regularly with the taliban. They are a highly organised group of people but to what extent was it inevitable that afghanistan would fall to them and fall so quickly . Well, when i was covering afghanistan, the government held most of the urban centres and the taliban held most of the countryside. So if you just looked at the area of the country controlled by the taliban, it controlled more than the government. And this was in the period when the allies were there in force, so this was up until i left in 2018. So, you know, the taliban have been a significant presence on the ground in afghanistan, you know, for the last two decades, during the whole period of the occupation. So in that sense they were very significant force, controlled a large area and were in a position, if you imagine, you know, logistically in a position to shut off key roads and therefore exercise, be in a position to challenge the authority of the afghan government in the cities. I think when the allied troops announced their withdrawal, it broke confidence in the Afghan Army in a way that probably hadnt been predicted. But i think the calculus that the taliban would ultimately take control of most areas, probably not kabul, i think people thought was pretty obvious to most people who knew afghanistan well. Jeffrey, did it have to be this messy though . I mean, the biden administration is not looking great as you can. The international community has been very critical. The allies in afghanistan have said, look, we needed more time but he was not to be dissuaded. I think the first question, martine, is did it have to be at all . You know, the idea that biden had the notion that america has to get out, 20 years long war, time to leave. You know, there hadnt been an american killed in afghanistan in i think about 18 months until yesterday. There was a relative amount of stability but there was certainly an element of Violence And Chaos as well. I think, you know, if you look at korea, the us has been in korea for 69 years. The us has been in Western Europe for much longer. So it is incorrect to say, i think, biden will be challenged fairly in his assumption and his declaration that the us had to get out. In the question did it have to be this messy . Probably a bit of yes and a bit of no. I mean, the idea that anyone could leave afghanistan, if you are going to leave, and have a clean exit is naive. It was simply not going to happen. And i think that on the inside of the us government they knew that the Afghan Army was feeble at best. They didnt obviously see that it was going to just simply put down its weapons and run, which happened with astonishing speed. So some serious miscalculations. I think in Bidens Defence there was no good time to do this and it is true. He could have muddled on, he could have just let this continue. But i think he also calculated that Americas Appetite for supporting this mission had diminished. So something had to be done. He is in the first year of his term, it was a political risk but he is still a long way from election midterms, he will take a lot of heat for this. We dont know how this will play out but he clearly calculated that if there was a time to do it it should be early in his term. Mark, we saw this extraordinary meeting of the g7. What other choice did the members of the g7, besides the united states, have but to get out as well when it was clear Thatjoe Biden was not going to change his mind . Well, for the europeans it is a Disaster Becausel America will recover. They recovered after vietnam, they won the cold war. But europe has shown itself because it has no defence policy, it is completely dependent. On the us whimsical decision. And the allies were not even told about it in order to arrange their own evacuation. It is a terrible crisis in transatlantic relations. Not on the European Union of course, britain too. Now europe is facing i its own Backyard Crisis without american help, which is sahel, libya, L Syria and at a time when the europeans are quite weakened by two big issues. One is the president ial election in france next year and a new chancellor in germany in the autumn and without Franco German Cooperation it is completely paralysed. So the only way we could see a little hope is of course that britain and france, which are the only two i military powers in europe, the Nuclear Power Permanent seat on the european council, come together to try to occupy the bit of the vacuum left by The Americans. But for that you will need i a new british Prime Minister because Boris Johnsons credit. With the European Union is zero. Zero points. Jeffrey, at some point the taliban are going to insist that they are not just a De Facto government, they are the legitimate government. How ready do you think the international community, not least the white house, would be to recognise them . Two points here, one is lets understand this attack was not the taliban, it was Isis K, as you noted. This Fringe Group of isis in afghanistan who has declared its enemy notjust The Americans but also the taliban because, believe it or not, they dont think the taliban is extreme enough. So, you know, ithink it is important to understand that while the taliban may be De Facto taking over afghanistan, that doesnt mean they control that huge country from border to border. And they have by no means established authority. They may ultimately or in the short Term Control Kabul and the levers of power. In terms of where this goes, i think we just have to see. Obviously, this horrific tale is changing day to day. I think that what is really going to determine it is is the taliban the same group that it was 20 years ago . Are they the hardline extremists who imposed just obscenely medieval punishments on people and forced women out of schools and into burqas . Is that going to be reinstated or have they learnt . They need foreign money, they need foreign support and they want foreign recognition. Are they, one, able to moderate themselves enough to send out signals that they are worthy of that . And, two, are they able to hold their own supporters so that they can actually show they can deliver on that . And i suppose a third point is, can they hold the country together because with Isis K now raining chaos on the country and murdering, you said 90 but i think the number is now up to 170 people dead in the attack on thursday, with that kind of threat looming further, can they actually control the country . Justin, you were nodding there with some of the points that jeffrey was making. To what extent have the taliban changed in the last 20 years . They have obviously come into power, if we can call it that, saying that they will make sure that girls can be educated. It doesnt seem that that is sticking even now in some parts of the country. We havent even begun talking about other groups who feel vulnerable, like the Lgbtq Community in afghanistan. 0r indeed the shia muslims. Yeah, there was that extraordinary Press Conference where they presented this sort of taliban 2. 0 kind of new taliban face and there is a real question about whether that is true. Look, you know, they are a very serious political force. They have been waging a war against the allies for the last 20 years and as part of that they have certainly got a vision for how they want to rule the country and they will have taken on board the fact that afghanistan has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. You know, it is a very young country, the average age is very low. Many afghans would have grown up without any knowledge of taliban rule. And they will be used to access to the internet and things like that. They understand how the world works, they have seen how other countries operate. And the taliban know that they have to work with people who understand those sort of things. So i think it is plausible that they do have a vision for a kind of more liberal regime. Whether, you know, whether they actually have the authority across the country. You have got to remember, afghanistan is a tribal nation and the remit, you know, the sources of power are quite localised. And so local tribal elders and chiefs will affiliate with the taliban. So it isnt a centralised authority, so they need to work with all these different power centres. Whether they can keep a lid on all of that is a completely open question i think at this stage. Particularly when, as we have seen, Is K were quite capable of carrying out that attack also, they have said, at the airport. IsIs K is only, there is reckoned only to be about 3000 fighters in Is K and it is quite localised, the support of isis within afghanistan. And, as you say, they have fought, the taliban have fought a war with isis. They have been Fighting Isis since Isis First emerged in afghanistan. They are formally enemies, as we said. Marc, we know that these flights to get people out are coming to an end. Borisjohnson, for his part, has said he will do everything he can to keep trying to get people out of the country but we know that there have been queues of people trying to get across the Land Borders into pakistan. How does the international community then help people to get to safety if these flights have stopped . And bearing in mind of Course Greece was telling the eu not to take too many afghans in. Well, it is a huge problem because, as we have seen in syria, europe didnt get its act together to share all the refugees and the Asylum Seekers and at the moment with the pandemic still going on there is really still anti immigration feeling all over europe i and including in britain. So it is very important i think this time to get our act together. It is to have a conference to share| the burden of the refugees among all the countries that are ready to take them i think we have a duty to help the afghans. Who helped us in this war. And we cant let them down. Now, there is another way of pressurising the taliban to let people go, it is money,. Money, money of course. The country is bankrupt,. The taliban will have to run a country no longer military where they could rely on opium and on taxes,. Illegal taxes on transport, that sort of thing. They need really the money and the money is completely blocked in washington either by the imf or The American administration or in europe. So there i think there is the real leverage of the west to force i the taliban to be more inclusive i in their government and to respect human rights, hopefully. Jeffrey, what is the appetite amongst The American public for taking in afghans who helped them and the allies . We know Thatjoe Biden has said they are going to have to be screened, they are going to have to be vetted. They wont necessarily, these refugees, be allowed straight into the us if thats where they want to end up. I think it is a pretty spotty record in the past in these kind of circumstances. In principle, support for people, particularly interpreters, and lets be clear, interpreters dontjust interpret pashto into english, they help people understand cultural, culture. They help people find contacts. I mean, i have worked with these kind of people as a journalist, as a war correspondent. Your lives very much depend on these people and you become incredibly loyal to them, as they are to you. And so the people who are connected to them will work and are working very hard to bring those people in and the people who have supported the us administration and the us efforts there. It is not going to be easy and it is particularly difficult now because the airport is erratic at best, if it is open at all. You know, i think this is not whatJoe Biden had in mind when he said were going to leave quickly. He thought it was going to be, i think in retrospect it seems incredibly naive on his part. He has really undermined his own authority as a stable force, a stable leader, which was lets face it what brought him to power in the first place against donald trump. He really has damaged his own brand, so to speak. But he has, more importantly to the people of afghanistan, he has left them in real chaos. And it is not clear what the impact is going to be for afghanistan, for biden. For afghanistan, nor for biden. But i think it is also too early to write that chapter of history yet. You know, a year is a long time these days and memories are very short. So lets see how this plays out. But right now, as history is unfolding hour by hour it is not a good story. It is a terrible, terrible tragedy that is unfolding. Justin, marc mentioned the fact that the country is broke. They are going to need some money. That is the leverage potentially for the west to deal with the taliban. But as people are trying to get out, we need to get humanitarian aid in for the people left behind. How inclined, in your experience, were the taliban to accept that sort of help . I mean, not necessarily inclined at all. But you have got to remember there are other players here. I mean, afghanistan was obviously the centre of the so called great game back in the victorian era and there is a great game still playing out in afghanistan. The chinese and the russians have indicated that they may be interested in supporting afghanistan. And the chinese for instance were advertising their ability to build new infrastructure in afghanistan. And have already been talking about this. So i dont think that the west has a unique franchise in afghanistan. There are other nations who wish to exert their influence there and are willing to use their resources to do so. So that is going to be very interesting to see how that plays out. And the extent to which the support of these nations will allow the taliban to keep control of the country. You wonder, marc, whether the eu, the united states misstepped here. Maybe do you think they recognised sufficiently how much of an Opportunity China and russia would see this moment as being as justin has just explained . Well, as we heard, The Americans. Of course misinterpreted completely. The europeans were really i depending on The Americans, so they were not particularly i interested about what is going on with Russia And China. I think the ball is in The American camp. They are the only superpower now. Europe is no longer a superpower because it doesnt have, as i said, a defence policy. So definitely the ball is in the us camp and i think the us has to show again leadership, which has been missing. Now for a long time. Just briefly then, jeffrey, who does the united States Partner with in the region to try to exert some influence when they have shipped out . You know, the us has traditionally tried to use pakistan as leverage with Afghanistan But Pakistan has said, famously, we have to live next to afghanistan. If you leave, we are still here. So they have always played both sides of this, the pakistanis. Both talking to the taliban and providing intelligence against them. So i think pakistan still plays a pivotal role here. Im curious though about this talk of Russia And China moving in. Lets face it, russia, formerly the soviet union, has a pretty searing history of its own in afghanistan and its own failure, failed invasion in the 1980s that just led to catastrophic consequences. Afghanistan is not a nation that wants to be occupied. History has shown that. The british much earlier failed. This is a very complex region and it simply does not, it is not a country that can be conquered and restructured, Re Engineered in western paradigms. Thank you all. Lets move on. This week has seen the centre of london full of demonstrators from the Extinction Rebellion movement protesting and calling for the end of the use of fossil fuels. Some question whether the demonstrations will achieve anything and many suggest the gap between Government Rhetoric and actual actions though is even wider than ever. Activists, for their part, have been accused of vandalism after pouring Fake Blood into the fountain outside buckingham palace. Justin, you are our chief environment correspondent. You are absolutely the perfect correspondent what effect do you think, if any, Extinction Rebellion� s actions are really having in moving the dial on Climate Change . Well, i mean, they do get attention, they do get the issues discussed, sometimes positively, sometimes negatively. But im not sure that is the prism through which you should see what is happening in the sense that, you know, they have a legitimate right to express their views. You know, they feel passionately that the Government Isnt doing enough to tackle what they call the Climate Emergency. And they believe, they feel powerless to change the governments views without going onto the streets and sort of making their protest clear. And i think in democracies it is legitimate for people to express their opinions in this way. Yes, some of it is theatrical and dramatic and they were pouring blood outside the London Stock exchange this afternoon but you know. Youve been with them. I was with them. Ive probably got bits of Fake Blood on my shoes still. I was with them today, yeah. 0k. Marc, Extinction Rebellion began in the uk but they have staged international events. How much traction have they got in france . Or is it other groups that are having more success in convincing politicians that they need to act faster . Well, in france, Extinction Rebellion wouldnt have the leeway they have in the uk because the police is much harsher, law and order, the government| is really trying to keep that sort of movement out of the road, after the trauma of the gilletjaune. I think the issue is huge because the cop26, which is taking place in glasgow, so the un Climate Change conference, is not going very well. It is the big scheme of Boris Johnson with the g7 presidency. But he has not given it any attention. Now, if you see cop21, which happened in france in 2015, everything was centralised by Francois Holland and it was a great success because there was the political will. And all that borisjohnson has given us at the moment is Prince Charles. J so Prince Charles has fantastic credentials in ecology but the problem he himself is no sort of regent and he doesnt have the political weight that you need for such a success. Of the cop26. Because if this fails. Then you can be sure Extinction Rebellion will have many days in front of them. What Extinction Rebellion are saying, jeffrey, isnt exactly controversial, is it . We know we have to give up fossil fuels. The assumption was that Joe Biden would be more environmentally minded than donald trump. What evidence are you seeing of that ahead of cop26 in november . Oh, you know, i think this massive Infrastructure Bill that you have No Doubt been reporting on you know, i think its a trillion dollars in infrastructure a good chunk of it is going towards the environment, towards environmental clean up, towards making the environment. Addressing the issues of Climate Change, the electrification of cars, creating networks of Charge Points across the us. So i think that there is a significant effort. People have every right to feel impatient and feel a sense of panic about Climate Change, the Climate Emergency and i agree with justin about that. I think that we dont disagree with the fundamentals of what Extinction Rebellion is saying but to go back to your question earlier, i think that what i wonder as a journalist is whether they are actually helping or hurting their cause. In one sense they are raising awareness but in another sense people who genuinely support what they are saying are being turned off by their tactics. I remember in October 2019 they stopped tubes here in london, whichjust mystified commuters who were on this energy efficient electrified railway getting to work. And they glued themselves to the tube trains in the name of Extinction Rebellion. And people just couldnt connect the dots. And even Extinction Rebellion had to acknowledge that maybe it wasnt the best tactic, which suggest that this is a group of well meaning people on the one hand and some anarchists and people who have attached themselves to it on the other. And this is always the problem with these kind of protest groups. What is the message and how much impact is it having . Just briefly then, justin, are they going to annoy people more than they are going to achieve their aims . Yeah, you know, there have been actions that other Extinction Rebellion activists thought werent appropriate. They have calibrated this very carefully, they occupy Road Junctions but they are not very busy Road Junctions. They have got these great dramatic sculptures, theyre actually quite careful not to cause too much disruption. A little bit but not too much. Thats what theyre hoping. Yeah, it is a balancing act, isnt it . Thank you very much. Thank you to marc and to jeffrey and to justin. That is all we have time for this week. Do join us again next week, same time, same place. Thanks for watching. Bye bye. Hello, hello, everyone, i hope you are doing all right. Many of us saw a bit of Brightness And Sunshine yesterday and we will tend to see a bit more of that today although it is rather cloudy and grey for some of us. There is the headline, bright and breezy, dry for most, i say dry for most because we still have High Pressure in charge, there it is on the big picture. This will stick around over the next couple of days introducing further settled conditions, its shifting a bit towards the North West and in doing so, it will draw in a bit more of a breeze but the Satellite Image from earlier on showing it keeping things like this Weather Front at bay and continue to do so over the next couple of days. You can see the Wind Arrows coming down from the north, introducing a bit of a breeze along eastern coastal parts now part cloudy across northern ireland, Northern England and the thickest of the cloud we may get the Odd Spot of drizzle, turning cloudy across the South West of england, the odd shower possible and quite a range in temperatures, cooler under the cloud, 15 or 16 across parts of scotland, could get a 22 In Cardiff where we see sunshine. As we head through the evening we see the return of some low cloud, Mist An Fog as well, becoming rather extensive across parts of northern ireland, scotland into Northern England and this will extend further south. We may get the Odd Spot of drizzle with lows of around 13 or 1a celsius. As for tomorrow, we will tend to see more of that cloud through the Day But West is best once more as far as sunshine is concerned. High pressure still here, but as i mentioned, without moving slightly towards the North West, it will continue to introduce more of a breeze and i think we will notice that tomorrow. Bank holiday monday for some of us, these are the Wind Gusts so we will not see the wind speeds like this all the time but they will pick up at times and i think temperatures probably quite similar getting to about 20 more prolonged spells of sunshine. As we look further into this week, a bit deeper into the crystal ball, we see more in the way of cloud, there is tuesday, still breezy, with Wind Arrows moving further inland will introduce more cloud as well with top temperatures reaching 19 or 20. Quite similar over the next couple of days, feeling cooler at times and cloudy but we will see sunny spells and we will keep you posted. Stay safe, see you soon. Few days with some bright and sunny spells. Thats the forecast. This is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. 20 years after being sent in the last british troops have left afghanistan the evacuation in the wake of the taliban taking charge is over. The effort has been frankly truly humbling to see hours worked. The exhaustion painted on peoples faces. We tried our best. But hundreds of afghans eligible for relocation and Uk Nationals have been left behind and the government has been criticised for having not done more sooner. President biden warns another attack on Kabul Airport is highly likely within the next 2a hours as us forces prepare to leave. Forecasters warn a storm approaching louisiana could be more powerful than Hurricane Katrina which devastated New Orleans 16 years ago